In terms of playing a game, a PC, a console, a set top box, a tablet, a smartphone, or anything else is simply hardware.. hardware that enables you to utilize software.. and as such, unless a piece of hardware has the exact same internals, they are different pieces of hardware.. so yea, your typical gaming PC and an Xbox One are both different pieces of hardware.. and also a PS4 and a Neo are different pieces of hardware.. the factor that ties either of these cases together is what unified store, ecosystem, and account that game is tied to.. So sure, you don't have to be a lemming to play games on PC, but you damn well will be using the unified Windows Store and Xbox Live if you plan on playing any Xbox/Win10 exclusives via any legal means..
Now that the baseline is set:
* In terms of gaming, God of War for the PS4 and Neo will come from the same PlayStation Store, using the same core OS, the same cloud saves, the same username log-in, the same online community, the same trophies, and will require the purchase of one single game that's playable on both.. the only difference is the hardware configurations..
and
* In terms of gaming, Gears of War 4 for the Xbox One and Windows 10 PC, will come from the same Windows Store, using the same core OS, the same cloud saves, the same username log-in, the same online community, the same achievements, and will require the purchase of one single game that's playable on both.. the only difference is the hardware configurations..
Beyond your personal and outdated view of what a platform is, what is the true difference between these two scenarios?.. there is none..
Edit: and to address your initial claim of "One is a console, one is a PC", fair enough.. But a Windows 10 PC is a Windows 10 device and since the November update, an Xbox One is a Windows 10 device.. that's the key that breaks down your entire argument.. with the RedStone 1 update coming next month, that ideal will be solidified with a universal Windows Store across all Windows 10 devices.. step out of the past and into the present kind sir.. "Xbox" is a platform and Windows 10 is the basis for that platform when it comes to gaming.. you wont be playing any Xbox exclusive unless youre playing it on a Windows 10 device.. period.. I hope that clears things up for you..
Lets kill this pathetic argument..
Neo can play all PS4 games,PS4 can play all Neo games 1 disc need it.
PC can play xbox exclusive,xbox and Scorpio can't play PC games.
There goes your arguments flying.
You need to pay $50 to play online on neo or PS4 both uses the same structure.
Scorpio and XBO pay $60 PC pays nothing...
There goes your argument again.
You can't install your xbox one copy or scorpio on PC you need a different version.
You can't install the PC version on xbox one or scorpio you need a different version.
All PS4 games work on Neo,all Neo games work on PS4..
Argument kill point failed..
I dont think you fully understand what Play Anywhere is.....
It seems as if you are thinking about this in the traditional sense..........like Xbox One discs vs PC Discs.
no one is bashing Ps4 we are just stating facts well I lest I am
1) its shady sony to say 2.3x instead of over 4 TF
2) Scorpio > Neo at this point
3) last week you all made a post questioning whether Scorpio 6TF was good enough for 4k that maybe at 20FPS YET NOW you argue 4TF (if not 2.3) wil do do not just 4K but 4K Ultra at 60FPS
lol 1.84 x 2.3=4.23
Evidently, simple math confuses and angers him.
Evidently, simple Reading confuses and angers both of you
I say (its shady sony to say 2.3x instead of over 4 TF) I didn't say it is 2.3 but that it is shady they don't just sat 4.2TF
thats like Mocrosoft saying Scorpio will have 4X2 cores is instead of just 8 cores why would Sony say 2.3unless there's a reason
as i guess before it's probably because 2.3 are for games / and the rest is reserve for VR dont forget this is a dev presentacion Slide they would not do that unless they had a reason
the last time I seen Sony do something like this was on Ps3 2 x 256 Ram witch we all know now why they type it that way only 256 was for developers 256 was reserve for GPU
Or, we read and understood you just fine and find there's nothing "shady" about Sony making a slide on the new PS4 Neo and comparing it to the original PS4.
See? A simple comparison between models - nothing "shady". And no, Sony used 2x256 for the PS3 because there were two separate memory pools; system and GPU (not developer and GPU) much like a traditional PC set-up.
Considering flops are floating point performance I would be inclined to disagree with you entirely, especially when the architecture and performance output of said hardware is in practice and understood.
Yes and you are a fool i already prove how 3TF of performance difference can yield gaps as little as 7 or 8 FPS,who ever think that scorpio will kill neo is day dreaming.
Probably knee deep in fantasy land.
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
Dude you cows need to learn and just take an L this time. Xbots had to hear time and time again about the power and how inferior 900p is to 1080p. Now MS responds with 4K to 1080p is not a big difference?
You guys crack me up.
And all those I will just play on my PC types....have you seen the required specs? You ain't playing this on that cheap laptop your grandma got you for Xmas 2 years ago. So quit your exclusive this and that talk. Hell I can play god of war through my tv with no console on PS now with my Xbox controller. You guys made this pixelgate a big deal this Gen, so Phil through off the gloves and said It's on now motherfu#@ers!
There is no secret sauce for you and you will be lucky to even have a 4kblueray player.
Neo is DOA, but I really want all you cows to have one. Sales are so important to you all after all. Then when PS5 comes out a year later you can praise your foreign empire for charging you $1,300 or $1,700 if you buy VR in a 5 year span. And if it will be next gen you will need all new discs because Sony don't get down with free B.C.
Don't sit there and tell me if Sony could sell their games to retail price on PC they wouldn't. That is ignorant.
Considering flops are floating point performance I would be inclined to disagree with you entirely, especially when the architecture and performance output of said hardware is in practice and understood.
Yes and you are a fool i already prove how 3TF of performance difference can yield gaps as little as 7 or 8 FPS,who ever think that scorpio will kill neo is day dreaming.
Probably knee deep in fantasy land.
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
The percentage is an irrelevance without proper context, the 40% in terms of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One was basically just the difference between 900p and 1080p in most instances, 633,600 pixels. For systems like Neo and Scorpio that 42% is going to be the resolution rendering difference of 3840x2160 vs. 3325x1871, or in other words roughly 2,073,000 pixels, an entire 1080p frame larger image.
Considering flops are floating point performance I would be inclined to disagree with you entirely, especially when the architecture and performance output of said hardware is in practice and understood.
Yes and you are a fool i already prove how 3TF of performance difference can yield gaps as little as 7 or 8 FPS,who ever think that scorpio will kill neo is day dreaming.
Probably knee deep in fantasy land.
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
Scorpio's 42 percent higher GPU power is backed by 46 percent higher memory bandwidth and both Scorpio and NEO has the same unified memory architecture. i.e. Xbox Scorpio wouldn't be gimped by XBO's harder to program fast and tiny memory storage 32Mb ESRAM.
PS4's 1.4X over XBO didn't deliver true 1.4X i.e.
Memory bandwidth: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
CPU: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
CPU I/O: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
Xbox Scorpio is being designed with Oculus VR considerations hence it's CPU will be significantly superior to NEO e.g. Fallout 4 PC VR would run on Scorpio without major re-factoring.
Oculus VR's Intel i5-4590 equivalent CPU is a generation leap from current console AMD Jaguar CPU cores.
RX-480 has 232 mm^2 chip area size
Scorpio SoC's 362 mm^2 - 232 mm^2 = 130 mm^2.
AMD's 8 core FX ZEN near SoC (missing IGP) estimated size is 122mm^2 to 133 mm^2.
AMD's FX ZEN AM4 includes 8 core CPU, North-bridge, South-bridge and two 64bit memory controllers.
Current Xbox One's SoC size is 363 mm^2.
2.0 Ghz AMD ZEN 8 core would have about 400 GFLOPS i.e. 4X increase over PS4's CPU solution.
When CPU and GPU are combined, Scorpio SoC is a generation jump from Xbox One.
Note that Xbox Scorpio's SoC can be recycled for MS's Surface desktop PC (i.e. Apple iMac like solution) and it can run Adobe Photoshop i.e. higher clocked CPU with similar class GPU.
lawl Cows and their Neo they are already jumping ship. before E3 they were all pre-ordering two.
lol lemming have their hopes to high,my god you surely are in line for another disappointment.
You people actually believe people will jump from neo or PS4 to scorpio...lol
@dynamitecop said:
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
´No you can´t and what most people does not know,and what you get is people like you,and several other claiming Scorpio will kill neo,based on nothing but a 1.8TF gap,without actually realising that on stronger GPU there is a diminishing return from those higher flops,so if you were to see the R290X by flops which is 5.6TF and then you see the Fury X which is 8.6TF you would assume it would be considerably more powerful,as it has 62% more flops,but the real gap in frames is much less than the number suggest.
I already explain to you good enough and clear enough that the difference between the R290 and the FuryX is 2+ PS4 yet the gap in performance is minimal, you think 1.8TF is a big gap.? How about 3.7TF which is more than double.
More clear it can't be look at what a 3.7TF gap produce in 1080p 19FPS gap,by 4k that gap is reduse to 10FPS,your argument got completely destroy the FuryX and the R290 are both GCN architecture,the Fury has some fixes over the R290 and still even with 3.7TF and hardware improvement all it can do it 10 FPS more in 4K i bring this because Neo and scorpio will target such resolution and on 1080p again is 19FPS,this game is DX12 so your whole coding to the metal argument mean shit,since that is what DX12 on PC is to the metal coding something consoles have for years.
Now before you enter into another stage of denial let me tell you what you are wrongly doing.
You are assuming that since the PS4 is faster than the XBO some times by more than 20FPS,with just 540Gflops of difference some how,that mean that 1.8TF between Neo and Scorpio will produce a game 3 times or more as big,which is a total joke for more than 1 reason,you can deny and cray about it all you want,but i will be right on this,just like i was when i predicted what the gap between the XBO and PS4 would be back on early 2013.
Look at that benchmark and see reality.
""a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance""
The Fury X is of the same architectural lineage as the R290,its Teraflops are above the R290 by 3.7TF that is 2+ PS4 put together,and the gap is from 19 to 10 FPS,while Scorpio will beat Neo in every scenario always,slaughter is a pathetic word to use to describe what will really happen,Scorpio will be the PS4 and the Neo will be the xbox one,4k on Scorpio the PS4 sub 4k.
If you think spotting 1080p vs 900p difference was hard,imaging 3680x2070 or 3520x1980 vs 3840x 2160...
8,294,400 true 4k.
6,969,600 Neo.
1,324,800 Pixel difference.
The fun thing is that unlike lower resolution 720p and 900p, 3520x1980 should give an incredibly image quality without blur,
We are talking about pixel count greatly above 1440p which is 3,686,400,unlike the xbox one that at 720p is a mess,Neo at that sub 4k resolution will look great.
@panda30 said:
Evidently, simple Reading confuses and angers both of you
I say (its shady sony to say 2.3x instead of over 4 TF) I didn't say it is 2.3 but that it is shady they don't just sat 4.2TF
thats like Mocrosoft saying Scorpio will have 4X2 cores is instead of just 8 cores why would Sony say 2.3unless there's a reason
as i guess before it's probably because 2.3 are for games / and the rest is reserve for VR dont forget this is a dev presentacion Slide they would not do that unless they had a reason
the last time I seen Sony do something like this was on Ps3 2 x 256 Ram witch we all know now why they type it that way only 256 was for developers 256 was reserve for GPU
Oh the plot thickens quick open a Neogaf account and post your findings there,this shady sony move can't be allowed.
@ronvalencia said:
@spitfire-six
Xbox Scorpio's performance estimate
As for RX-480, any overclock editions will be bounded by effective memory bandwidth.
For example
((256 bit x 9000Mhz) / 8) x Polaris's 75.79 percent memory bandwidth efficiency) x Polaris's compression booster 1.36X = 297 GB/s
For reference RX-480
((256 bit x 8000Mhz) / 8) x Polaris's 75.79 percent memory bandwidth efficiency) x Polaris's compression booster 1.36X = 264 GB/s
--
Scorpio's 320 GB/s memory bandwidth
((384 bit x 6700 Mhz) / 8) x Polaris's 75.79 percent memory bandwidth efficiency) x Polaris's compression booster 1.36X = 333 GB/s
This is the biggest bullshit ever,and i can't believe you still dishonestly trying to make Scorpio bandwidth look higher than PC.
You are using a combined bandwidth for Scorpio vs a GPU bandwidth solely for the RX480 you are not making a fu**ing honest comparison and you are on purpose hyperboling Scorpio bandwidth.
The 320GB's is the total bandwidth Scorpio has for GPU CPU and system,everything that run on scorpio will use said bandwidth PERIOD,so there is no fu**ing way in hell Scorpio bandwidth will be totally and 100% all GPU dedicated because system and CPU uses resources as well from that Bandwidth, want to use Scorpio bandwidth vs PC fine do a more honest comparison.
Since PC has 68GB/s from DDR3 + 256GB/s for RX480 is easy to say that PC has 324GB/s how that bandwidth is divided and used is on the air because you don't know how much bandwidth MS will assign by restriction,which mean it will be off limits of the GPU.
Just like 30GB/s is offlimit for the xbox one GPU from the 68GB/s bandwidth you.
And considering MS has being completely shady and dishonest for 2 generations in row about bandwidth i would wait for the smoke to clear first.
@Antwan3K said:
@tormentos: With Xbox Play Anywhere and the unified Windows Store, yes I'll be able to buy a game once and play it on both Xbox One and Windows 10 PC.. Complete with cross-saves, a single list of achievements, a single Xbox Live friends list, and everything else that constitutes a single game from a single platform
No you will not you will download the PC version for PC and the console version for console,both version are not the same, you can't physically take your xbox one disc and install it on PC,regardless of having windows 10,just like you can't get a PC game and install it on XBO regardless of it using a windows 10 modify OS.
What you get with play anywhere is all the digital version on different hardware,but the install is different and you can't run the XBO version on PC or surface for that matter,basically what you get is a multiplatform game sold to you for 1 fee in multiple devices,and the code doesn't even come with the physical version is tied to your live account,and as you know digital games are not really yours.
You can use cross saves on Vita and PS4 doesn't mean that if a game is on both is not a multiplatform,period.
Again Neo and PS5 use the same game in 1 disc with all features being the same,that is not the case for xbox,which by the way cross platform play is up to MS,on PS4 and Neo all games work across both platforms down right to online.
@ronvalencia said:
1. Microsoft still gets a cut from games delivered from Windows Store (Xbox Anywhere) version.
2. Windows 10's business revenue model is similar Google's Android.
3. Microsoft gets a cut from shipped PCs with Windows 10 OEM.
1-I am not bound to windows store when i bought a PC,i can use steam,Origin,Uplay or other,the only thing MS get money from is on their store which pale in comparison to steam and others.
2-Yes i know that but unlike google which basically everything run through their store on PC that is not the case,and there is no licensing fee on PC outside windows store.
3-Yes which up until a few months was free,and again a 1 time fee and no licensing which on xbox one is not the case,as there is hardware earnings + XBL fee + licensing not only of games,and but peripherals as well,like controllers and anything.
@cainetao11 said:
Looking at my financials being I own stock in MSFT, I doubt they're worried about what you call "losses".
Bottom lin? If they are going to sell their games through their store on PC, you're going to have to pay them. And starting at the end of the month, every new PC sold will have W10 on it and it wont be free.
My Surface cost more than that. But as an Engineering student I use it for so many different things. I'd buy 2 more of them before I'd buy a Neo LOL.
For me, an exclusive doesn't matter. I buy things I wish to own and use. I don't care who can play games or where they can or cant play them. I don't work for these companies. But I own stock in quite a few of them. You keep fighting that fight though.
Oh really is that the reason several investors inside MS wanted the brand dead and MS to focus on windows.?
Yes just like you need a PS3 or PS4 from SONY didn't stop you lemmings from downplaying TLOU,LBP,MLB and many other games on both platforms as multiplatforms,hell don't make me quote you on PSN NOw and the whole war i had with you people who wanted to pretend PS3 games were not exclusives because PSN Now work on samsung TV and PS4..lol
Yes good for you,all that prove is that you have money to burn and can spend it on shit which is irrelevant to this topic,again for adobe yeah use that surface for gaming yeah the PS4 walk over it.
Yes now it doesn't matter after the endless hyping of MS filth for 2 generations,is after MS sold all its exclusives to PC because of poor xbox one sales that you people don't care about games,alto this gen you don't care,about scores,hardware,graphics and basically everything you lemmings use to care about last gen..lol
no one is bashing Ps4 we are just stating facts well I lest I am
1) its shady sony to say 2.3x instead of over 4 TF
2) Scorpio > Neo at this point
3) last week you all made a post questioning whether Scorpio 6TF was good enough for 4k that maybe at 20FPS YET NOW you argue 4TF (if not 2.3) wil do do not just 4K but 4K Ultra at 60FPS
lol 1.84 x 2.3=4.23
Evidently, simple math confuses and angers him.
Evidently, simple Reading confuses and angers both of you
I say (its shady sony to say 2.3x instead of over 4 TF) I didn't say it is 2.3 but that it is shady they don't just sat 4.2TF
thats like Mocrosoft saying Scorpio will have 4X2 cores is instead of just 8 cores why would Sony say 2.3unless there's a reason
as i guess before it's probably because 2.3 are for games / and the rest is reserve for VR dont forget this is a dev presentacion Slide they would not do that unless they had a reason
the last time I seen Sony do something like this was on Ps3 2 x 256 Ram witch we all know now why they type it that way only 256 was for developers 256 was reserve for GPU
Or, we read and understood you just fine and find there's nothing "shady" about Sony making a slide on the new PS4 Neo and comparing it to the original PS4.
See? A simple comparison between models - nothing "shady". And no, Sony used 2x256 for the PS3 because there were two separate memory pools; system and GPU (not developer and GPU) much like a traditional PC set-up.
and like I say, last time Sony Type something similar was on ps3 ram and we know how that turn out no one talks in X miltiplayers you dont say I have 4x2 appels isted of just saying 8 appels unles there is a reason
This is the biggest bullshit ever,and i can't believe you still dishonestly trying to make Scorpio bandwidth look higher than PC.
You are using a combined bandwidth for Scorpio vs a GPU bandwidth solely for the RX480 you are not making a fu**ing honest comparison and you are on purpose hyperboling Scorpio bandwidth.
The 320GB's is the total bandwidth Scorpio has for GPU CPU and system,everything that run on scorpio will use said bandwidth PERIOD,so there is no fu**ing way in hell Scorpio bandwidth will be totally and 100% all GPU dedicated because system and CPU uses resources as well from that Bandwidth, want to use Scorpio bandwidth vs PC fine do a more honest comparison.
Since PC has 68GB/s from DDR3 + 256GB/s for RX480 is easy to say that PC has 324GB/s how that bandwidth is divided and used is on the air because you don't know how much bandwidth MS will assign by restriction,which mean it will be off limits of the GPU.
Just like 30GB/s is offlimit for the xbox one GPU from the 68GB/s bandwidth you.
And considering MS has being completely shady and dishonest for 2 generations in row about bandwidth i would wait for the smoke to clear first.
High end mainstream gaming PC's 128bit DDR3-2400 or DDR4-2400 doesn't have 68 GB/s memory bandwidth. The only bullshit comes from you.
The Math
((128bit x 2400)/8)/1024 = ~37.5 GB/s peak.
You are not making a fu**ing honest comparison.
AMD ZEN's AM4 socket doesn't even support quad 64bit memory channels. LOL.
Anything beyond PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB/s read and 16 GB/s write limits are wasting $$$$$$ on memory modules.
With gaming PC workloads, you haven't realized why upgrading Core i7's memory modules beyond 128 bit DDR3-2400 or 128bit DDR4-2400 are wasting $$$$
My Xonar DX2 PCI-E audio card is limited to PCI-E 1X level memory bandwidth i.e. PCI-E 1X version 1.0 has 250MB/s LOL.
On AMD GCN 1.1 PC cards, True-Audio DSP consumes small amount of GPU's memory bandwidth which is not much different from game consoles. I usually dumb down my Xonar DX2 PCI-E audio card's functions when True-Audio DSPs are active.
If PC connects Yamaha HDMI receiver+HDTV, it's all GPU card including HDMI audio.
My Samsung 840 SSD use to speed up Windows 10 boot process.
Current AM4 motherboards has PCI-E 16X version 3.0 slots.
As you can see, I have accounted for major memory bandwidth consumers on the PC.
Xbox Scorpio's "more than 320 GB/s memory bandwidth" could indicate 321 GB/s with 1 GB/s bandwidth covers HDD, Blu-ray and DSP.
If XBO actually delivers 30 GB/s CPU results, it should have rivaled Intel Core i7's CPU results.... XBO and PS4 CPUs behaves in a similar manner i.e. both are shit (at least they are better than CELL and PPE).
I dont think you fully understand what Play Anywhere is.....
It seems as if you are thinking about this in the traditional sense..........like Xbox One discs vs PC Discs.
Please tell me that is not the case.....
I do understand what it is.
Is a multiplatform version of a game being sold to you on multiple devices,so you have a surface,PC and XBO,you buy one and you get all 3 version,irrelevant of getting the 3 versions for 1 price,is not the same version on all platforms,the game is the same don't miss interpret what i am saying,but the version are not cross compatible,there is a surface version,a PC version and a XBO version,what neo does is not even close to be like this,and more like what PC does which is have multiple configurations with the same OS Feature for feature which PC and XBO we know is not the same at all.
You don't need an xbox one to play Gears 4 while you need a PS4 to play Uncharted 4,this is the real difference regardless of play anywhere,for other gears games you need it an xbox console when they launched,so you saw Gears and like in to 2006 yeah get a 360,that is not the case any more.
@asylumni said:
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
Oh this one should be good i wonder what the little Lemming will reply to you with..lol
@dynamitecop said:
The percentage is an irrelevance without proper context, the 40% in terms of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One was basically just the difference between 900p and 1080p in most instances, 633,600 pixels. For systems like Neo and Scorpio that 42% is going to be the resolution rendering difference of 3840x2160 vs. 3325x1871, or in other words roughly 2,073,000 pixels, an entire 1080p frame larger image.
Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.... The percentage is irrelevant...hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I love how you picture always the worst case scenario for the PS and best for the xbox..lol
So you know what the difference is between 720p and 1080p.?
2,073,600 1080p
921,600 720p
1,152,000 Gap.
Now i see you use 3325x1871.
I see you use one of the lower ones why? What make you think it would mostly be that.?
I see 3680x2070 so lets me assume it would mostly be this one instead of the one you chose.
7,617,600 wait a minute you claim more than 2 million pixels difference,but here i see
8,294,400 4k - 7,617,600 = 676,800 that is a hair higher than the difference between 1080p and 900p.? Which you so fiercely claim is nothing on all your 3 accounts B4X.
But lets fallow sony guidelines were they say prepare a 3520x1980 display.
3520x1980 = 6,969,600
8,294,400 4k - 6,969,00 = 1,324,800 interesting you know that is a little higher as well than the difference between 720p and 1080p the PS4 has shown over the xbox one in some games right?
1,152,000 gap between 720p and 1080p which you also fiercely claim was nothing...lol
You know what the real difference will be here.? That at 720p the xbox one was a blur mess with many jaggies,chimmering and those kinds of problems you get on lower resolutions,the PS4 at 3520x1980 will look incredibly good,that resolution is way over 1440p which is not even the standard on PC which is 1080p,hell even 3325x1871 which you quickly held to will chew and spit the 720p one on xbox one and will by considerable margin beat the PS4 without trying.
Now from where i see it that 40% vs 41% @asylumni hit you with was pretty spot on,the difference in pixels is a little more than what it was on PS4 vs XBO which you have 3 years downplaying on 3 or more different accounts..lol
@ronvalencia said:
Scorpio's 42 percent higher GPU power is backed by 46 percent higher memory bandwidth and both Scorpio and NEO has the same unified memory architecture. i.e. Xbox Scorpio wouldn't be gimped by XBO's harder to program fast and tiny memory storage 32Mb ESRAM.
PS4's 1.4X over XBO didn't deliver true 1.4X i.e.
Memory bandwidth: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
CPU: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
CPU I/O: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
Xbox Scorpio is being designed with Oculus VR considerations hence it's CPU will be significantly superior to NEO e.g. Fallout 4 PC VR would run on Scorpio without major re-factoring.
Oculus VR's Intel i5-4590 equivalent CPU is a generation leap from current console AMD Jaguar CPU cores.
RX-480 has 232 mm^2 chip area size
Scorpio SoC's 362 mm^2 - 232 mm^2 = 130 mm^2.
AMD's 8 core FX ZEN near SoC (missing IGP) estimated size is 122mm^2 to 133 mm^2.
AMD's FX ZEN AM4 includes 8 core CPU, North-bridge, South-bridge and two 64bit memory controllers.
Current Xbox One's SoC size is 363 mm^2.
2.0 Ghz AMD ZEN 8 core would have about 400 GFLOPS i.e. 4X increase over PS4's CPU solution.
When CPU and GPU are combined, Scorpio SoC is a generation jump from Xbox One.
Note that Xbox Scorpio's SoC can be recycled for MS's Surface desktop PC (i.e. Apple iMac like solution) and it can run Adobe Photoshop i.e. higher clocked CPU with similar class GPU.
@tormentos: Oh really is that the reason several investors inside MS wanted the brand dead and MS to focus on windows.?
You going to link me to proof? Not the articles we all saw in the past, but new stuff dude. I can pick you any company and find you dissenters in its mist. The fact is, the CEO isn't on board with that as of now so FAIL.
I am a former Series 7 Stock broker from the 1990's dude, don't even try to go into corporate business and maneuvering argument with me. You like what you lik, think its the best.
I know what I like is best for me. Leave it at that.
High end mainstream gaming PC's 128bit DDR3-2400 or DDR4-2400 doesn't have 68 GB/s memory bandwidth. The only bullshit comes from you.
The Math
((128bit x 2400)/8)/1024 = ~37.5 GB/s peak.
Anything beyond PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB/s read and 16 GB/s write limits are wasting $$$$$$ on memory modules.
With gaming PC workloads, you haven't realized why upgrading Core i7's memory modules beyond 128 bit DDR3-2400 or 128bit DDR4-2400 are wasting $$$$
My Xonar DX2 PCI-E audio card is limited to PCI-E 1X level memory bandwidth i.e. PCI-E 1X version 1.0 has 250MB/s LOL.
On AMD GCN 1.1 PC cards, True-Audio DSP consumes small amount of GPU's memory bandwidth which is not much different from game consoles. I usually dumb down my Xonar DX2 PCI-E audio card's functions when True-Audio DSPs are active.
If PC connects Yamaha HDMI receiver+HDTV, it's all GPU card including HDMI audio.
You are arguing peak performance vs effective bandwidth use DDR3 on xbox one is 68GB/s from then on there are penalties for efficiency like any other device peak vs optimal.
And i am not even factoring in DDR4 which as you can see scratch 70GB/s.
Again going by the xbox one reservation which is 30GB'/s for CPU and system i don't see how MS can go lower with scorpio than with the XBO considering that you are claiming Scorpio will have a faster CPU.
Again the XBO effectively has more bandwidth than a 7770,yet it performs worse in most games.
You going to link me to proof? Not the articles we all saw in the past, but new stuff dude. I can pick you any company and find you dissenters in its mist. The fact is, the CEO isn't on board with that as of now so FAIL.
I am a former Series 7 Stock broker from the 1990's dude, don't even try to go into corporate business and maneuvering argument with me. You like what you lik, think its the best.
I know what I like is best for me. Leave it at that.
Why do i need to link you to new stuff WTF.? It was not even 3 years ago that those rumors were strong,do you actually believe MS is putting all its exclusives on PC because it want to give PC gamers something.?
Those games are on PC because every single xbox one franchise as exclusive as under perform vs what the xbox 360 use to do,Halo being the biggest drop not even 1 million NPD when Halo 3 sold 3.3 million in NPD alone on US show how huge the drop was.
Yeah as good as you may be tricking people into thinking the xbox has a bright feature in MS,you apparently are not bright enough to see why those games are landing on PC after MS went through hell building an image for the brand far from PC.
What you seeing now was probably part of a deal inside MS with its stock holders,not you the ones with millions inside MS,they let the brand go and if it didn't perform as expected its games would also come to PC to maximize profits,as simple as that.
Fact is no one needs a pathetic xbox one or scorpio for Gears 4 any more and exclusives going forward,exclusives is how this world move not just games,is what keep Curry from playing every day in a different team,is what keep Jordan inside Nike,exclusivity deals are everywhere and for a reason.
In terms of playing a game, a PC, a console, a set top box, a tablet, a smartphone, or anything else is simply hardware.. hardware that enables you to utilize software.. and as such, unless a piece of hardware has the exact same internals, they are different pieces of hardware.. so yea, your typical gaming PC and an Xbox One are both different pieces of hardware.. and also a PS4 and a Neo are different pieces of hardware.. the factor that ties either of these cases together is what unified store, ecosystem, and account that game is tied to.. So sure, you don't have to be a lemming to play games on PC, but you damn well will be using the unified Windows Store and Xbox Live if you plan on playing any Xbox/Win10 exclusives via any legal means..
Now that the baseline is set:
* In terms of gaming, God of War for the PS4 and Neo will come from the same PlayStation Store, using the same core OS, the same cloud saves, the same username log-in, the same online community, the same trophies, and will require the purchase of one single game that's playable on both.. the only difference is the hardware configurations..
and
* In terms of gaming, Gears of War 4 for the Xbox One and Windows 10 PC, will come from the same Windows Store, using the same core OS, the same cloud saves, the same username log-in, the same online community, the same achievements, and will require the purchase of one single game that's playable on both.. the only difference is the hardware configurations..
Beyond your personal and outdated view of what a platform is, what is the true difference between these two scenarios?.. there is none..
Edit: and to address your initial claim of "One is a console, one is a PC", fair enough.. But a Windows 10 PC is a Windows 10 device and since the November update, an Xbox One is a Windows 10 device.. that's the key that breaks down your entire argument.. with the RedStone 1 update coming next month, that ideal will be solidified with a universal Windows Store across all Windows 10 devices.. step out of the past and into the present kind sir.. "Xbox" is a platform and Windows 10 is the basis for that platform when it comes to gaming.. you wont be playing any Xbox exclusive unless youre playing it on a Windows 10 device.. period.. I hope that clears things up for you..
Lets kill this pathetic argument..
Neo can play all PS4 games,PS4 can play all Neo games 1 disc need it.
PC can play xbox exclusive,xbox and Scorpio can't play PC games.
There goes your arguments flying.
You need to pay $50 to play online on neo or PS4 both uses the same structure.
Scorpio and XBO pay $60 PC pays nothing...
There goes your argument again.
You can't install your xbox one copy or scorpio on PC you need a different version.
You can't install the PC version on xbox one or scorpio you need a different version.
All PS4 games work on Neo,all Neo games work on PS4..
Argument kill point failed..
@dynamitecop said:
Considering flops are floating point performance I would be inclined to disagree with you entirely, especially when the architecture and performance output of said hardware is in practice and understood.
Yes and you are a fool i already prove how 3TF of performance difference can yield gaps as little as 7 or 8 FPS,who ever think that scorpio will kill neo is day dreaming.
Probably knee deep in fantasy land.
@cainetao11 said:
That's how this forum works. And cows pissed and moaned it was "the PS family" and don't even try to say they didn't.
I'm not committed to buying a Scorpio so I don't care if you don't NEED an X1 or scorpio. I wont NEED a Neo to play PSNeo games, so what?
I don't NEED any of this. Its a hobby, a luxury. I need: food, shelter, sleep, companionship, to relieve myself and water.
Like Bob Dylan sang, The times.......they are a changing. That definition of "exclusive" isn't going to stop consumers that want a Scorpio from buying a Scorpio. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Please dude were are on a forum who use to claim lemming invented the term console exclusive.
To use games like Witcher on PC and XB 360 as some some or exclusive,you people failed an exclusive is a game in just 1 platform.
No it will not,but i am not arguing that i am arguing it that you don't need scorpio for those games,so if some one want and xbox and Halo it would care less if Halo is on PC,this apply to PS4 games as well which has many games in co-op with PC which are not found on xbox one.
But exclusives talking is a different thing you see,because if you see Gears 4 and you like what you saw, you can chose between an xbo One or a PC,which you chose is ultimately your choice,if you see Uncharted 4 and you like what you see get a PS4 there is no way around that one,either neo or normal but you get a PS4.
This is the true difference between exclusives and multiplatforms.
Nathandrakeswag, what are you going to do when the NEO comes out and PS loses all their exclusives? Are you going to have as much butt hurt as you exhibited above? I suspect you will have double standards to go along with your double alts.
The PS4 showed gaps as big as 100% in pixel difference and 100% frame wise basically walking over the xbox one.
The pixel one sustained the frame one variable.
Your constant downplay of the gap of the PS4 is sad to say the leas,and some how you claim to take no sides,GTFO man.
Since you like to do numbers so much please quantify me this gap here in %.
As a Hermit, hardware superiority means 1.4X at every major parts in the computing device. Hitman's inversion shouldn't happen if PS4 was 100 percent 1.4X.
XBO's performance extraction needs workarounds e.g. TMU for ROPS, hence the programmer has to program via compute shaders/TMU(write) path not the traditional vertex/pixel shading/ROPS path. Hitman has used async compute. TMU/ROPS workaround doesn't fix ALU bound issues.
Project Cars didn't seem to advance beyond MT rendering on PS4.
Higher memory bandwidth has to be back by higher FLOPS.
Higher FLOPS has to be back by higher memory bandwidth.
Learn from NVIDIA's example i.e. balanced FLOPS increase with effective memory bandwidth increase.
XBO's 1600x900p limits, you have major factors at play and these are
1. ALU bound. TMUs can write to memory bandwidth limit on either ESRAM or DDR3.
2. ESRAM bound without tiling or split rendering(rendering on both DDR3 and ESRAM). Sniper Elite 3 used the tiling workaround to reach 1920x1080p.
There are major performance cliffs when not using workaround solutions.
Btw, 32 ROPS can still scale to RX-480 level when given higher effective memory bandwidth (mostly done by memory compression).
You going to link me to proof? Not the articles we all saw in the past, but new stuff dude. I can pick you any company and find you dissenters in its mist. The fact is, the CEO isn't on board with that as of now so FAIL.
I am a former Series 7 Stock broker from the 1990's dude, don't even try to go into corporate business and maneuvering argument with me. You like what you lik, think its the best.
I know what I like is best for me. Leave it at that.
Why do i need to link you to new stuff WTF.? It was not even 3 years ago that those rumors were strong,do you actually believe MS is putting all its exclusives on PC because it want to give PC gamers something.?
Those games are on PC because every single xbox one franchise as exclusive as under perform vs what the xbox 360 use to do,Halo being the biggest drop not even 1 million NPD when Halo 3 sold 3.3 million in NPD alone on US show how huge the drop was.
Yeah as good as you may be tricking people into thinking the xbox has a bright feature in MS,you apparently are not bright enough to see why those games are landing on PC after MS went through hell building an image for the brand far from PC.
What you seeing now was probably part of a deal inside MS with its stock holders,not you the ones with millions inside MS,they let the brand go and if it didn't perform as expected its games would also come to PC to maximize profits,as simple as that.
Fact is no one needs a pathetic xbox one or scorpio for Gears 4 any more and exclusives going forward,exclusives is how this world move not just games,is what keep Curry from playing every day in a different team,is what keep Jordan inside Nike,exclusivity deals are everywhere and for a reason.
The xbox one loss that reason.
Almost 3 years ago. And here you are still clinging to a rumor. At least when I bring up things Sony effed up, they are factual, past screw ups. You're clinging to a rumor that is years old. Why? Why do you want Xbox gone so much? They aren't stopping you from buying your PS.
LOL I love you telling me, what I am probably seeing now from MS. Do you own stock in them? Have you ever attended a shareholder's conference? Do you receive quarterlies? Do you even realize when a person buys SNE on the NYSE, it isn't actual shares? Stop dude. You're out of your league in this area.
Then no, you dont understand what it is. As i thought, you are viewing it in the traditional sense.........meaning you probably dont see why Play Anywhere is a big deal in the industry, probably think it is like Cross Buy on Playstation.
At the risk of you ignoring this.............which you probably will................i will attempt to explain.
Microsoft is using Universal Windows Platform (UWP) to develop games (or if 3rd parties want to use it). This allows devs to say........develop the PC version and have it automatically scaled to other platforms through software. This is why the games run like shit on PC to be honest but it works. It is not the same as releasing 2 disks and having cross buy, or having 1 disk work on both. It is no different than PS4/Neo, in that the scaling is done in software, only the games are digital rather than physical. Sony can control the hardware (Neo), MS has no control over what you put in your PC. The hardware in Neo is different than PS4, just as hardware in PCs is different than XB1 or Surface.
MS...........or ANY company.............could make a disc that works on consoles and PC. It is very easy for them to do because they own the software, they own the DRM.
Problem is that not many PC's have a BluRay drive, so that wasnt possible to do, nor does any surface device had disc drives.
For universal compatibility they had to go digital with it.
Again, you will ignore this because you dont want it to be true because it will destroy cows argument about no exclusives, no games, or whatever.
Youll accuse me of being a lemming without proof because there is none. (check my posting history)
Youre even arguing with @ronvalencia, someone who has time and again proven he knows what he is talking about and backs it up with facts. You ignore all of it and repeat just what you want to hear, what you agree with based on your own biases.
Reading your posts is like talking politics with someone who watches Fox News regularly, extremely frustrating because you actually believe that nonsense.
@tormentos: You have no idea what you're talking about.. The entire premise of the Universal Windows Platform is "code once, distribute everywhere".. For example, I have a Lumia 950XL and a Surface Pro 3.. The exact same apps appear in their shared Windows Store.. Not different versions of the same app for mobile phone and for tablet/desktop, literally the same app.. Those UWP apps are now coming to Xbox One due to the unified store being applied to all Windows 10 devices.. As a matter of fact, some UWP apps are already showing up on the XB1 due to the Preview Program.. So with UWP and a unified store, the same game/app I see on my Xbox One Windows Store is the same game/app I see on my Surface Pro 3 and is the same game/app I see on my Lumia 950XL.. Literally the same game/app from the same store..
You can't download a separate game from the PC store and a separate game from the Xbox One store when they both will be using the same UNIFIED WINDOWS STORE.. It's a single store and I can download up to 10 copies of a game or app from that Store across all my Windows 10 devices..
Again, let me spell this out for you: A Windows 10 PC is a Windows 10 device and an Xbox One is a Windows 10 device.. Universal Windows Platform games/apps are designed to be coded once and available everywhere across all Windows 10 devices.. All Windows 10 devices will share the same unified Windows Store.. That Windows Store will have Universal Windows Platform games/apps.. So when I buy/download Gears of War 4 for Xbox One, I'll simply be downloading an additional copy of that same game for my Surface Book 2 (or whatever gaming laptop I decide on).. That copy of the game will literally be the same game from the same store..
Geez dude, you post walls of crap filled with charts and graphs but can't understand what a "unified store" is?..
Then no, you dont understand what it is. As i thought, you are viewing it in the traditional sense.........meaning you probably dont see why Play Anywhere is a big deal in the industry, probably think it is like Cross Buy on Playstation.
At the risk of you ignoring this.............which you probably will................i will attempt to explain.
Microsoft is using Universal Windows Platform (UWP) to develop games (or if 3rd parties want to use it). This allows devs to say........develop the PC version and have it automatically scaled to other platforms through software. This is why the games run like shit on PC to be honest but it works. It is not the same as releasing 2 disks and having cross buy, or having 1 disk work on both. It is no different than PS4/Neo, in that the scaling is done in software, only the games are digital rather than physical. Sony can control the hardware (Neo), MS has no control over what you put in your PC. The hardware in Neo is different than PS4, just as hardware in PCs is different than XB1 or Surface.
MS...........or ANY company.............could make a disc that works on consoles and PC. It is very easy for them to do because they own the software, they own the DRM.
Problem is that not many PC's have a BluRay drive, so that wasnt possible to do, nor does any surface device had disc drives.
For universal compatibility they had to go digital with it.
Again, you will ignore this because you dont want it to be true because it will destroy cows argument about no exclusives, no games, or whatever.
Youll accuse me of being a lemming without proof because there is none. (check my posting history)
Youre even arguing with @ronvalencia, someone who has time and again proven he knows what he is talking about and backs it up with facts. You ignore all of it and repeat just what you want to hear, what you agree with based on your own biases.
Reading your posts is like talking politics with someone who watches Fox News regularly, extremely frustrating because you actually believe that nonsense.
High end mainstream gaming PC's 128bit DDR3-2400 or DDR4-2400 doesn't have 68 GB/s memory bandwidth. The only bullshit comes from you.
The Math
((128bit x 2400)/8)/1024 = ~37.5 GB/s peak.
Anything beyond PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB/s read and 16 GB/s write limits are wasting $$$$$$ on memory modules.
With gaming PC workloads, you haven't realized why upgrading Core i7's memory modules beyond 128 bit DDR3-2400 or 128bit DDR4-2400 are wasting $$$$
My Xonar DX2 PCI-E audio card is limited to PCI-E 1X level memory bandwidth i.e. PCI-E 1X version 1.0 has 250MB/s LOL.
On AMD GCN 1.1 PC cards, True-Audio DSP consumes small amount of GPU's memory bandwidth which is not much different from game consoles. I usually dumb down my Xonar DX2 PCI-E audio card's functions when True-Audio DSPs are active.
If PC connects Yamaha HDMI receiver+HDTV, it's all GPU card including HDMI audio.
You are arguing peak performance vs effective bandwidth use DDR3 on xbox one is 68GB/s from then on there are penalties for efficiency like any other device peak vs optimal.
And i am not even factoring in DDR4 which as you can see scratch 70GB/s.
Again going by the xbox one reservation which is 30GB'/s for CPU and system i don't see how MS can go lower with scorpio than with the XBO considering that you are claiming Scorpio will have a faster CPU.
Again the XBO effectively has more bandwidth than a 7770,yet it performs worse in most games.
My Haswell Corei7-4770K/4790K can still rivals Skylake Core i7-6770K
IvyBridge-E? That's a minority i.e. expensive Xeon type motherboards marketed to very high end PC gamers.
Anything beyond PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB/s read and 16 GB/s write limits are wasting $$$$$$ on memory modules.
You are not giving me any gaming use cases to upgrade towards Intel Core i7 Extreme Editions.
I'm not running CrossFire or SLI gaming PCs i.e. 10 to 12 TFLOPS GPU power. Game consoles are not running SLI or CrossFire GPUs with 10 to 12 TFLOPS GPU power.
If my current CPUs bottlenecks Vega 10 or 1080 Ti, I'll upgrade, but game consoles doesn't have the GPU level to warrant Broadwell-E/Skylake-E level CPU power.
@navyguy21: Great post.. For some reason @tormentos doesn't realize that buying Gears of War 4 from the Windows Store on your Xbox One in your living room and then downloading that same game to your Windows 10 PC in your office is no different than buying the new God of War from the PlayStation Store on your PS4 in your living room and then downloading that same game to your Neo in your man-cave..
It's the exact same thing.. Buying/downloading additional copies of the same game from a single store that's tied to your single account, all part of the same platform.. The same software being used on different hardware..
Considering flops are floating point performance I would be inclined to disagree with you entirely, especially when the architecture and performance output of said hardware is in practice and understood.
Yes and you are a fool i already prove how 3TF of performance difference can yield gaps as little as 7 or 8 FPS,who ever think that scorpio will kill neo is day dreaming.
Probably knee deep in fantasy land.
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
The difference between the PS4 and xbox one was 500tflops. The xbox one is 1.32 i believe teraflops PS4 1.84tflops. There could be a difference of 2tflops or more if Sony releases the Neo at 4 teraflops?
Why even bother? This "upgrade" sounds so pointless. Will stick with my current PS4.
Why don't you just trade or sell your PS4.. The price point for Neo is good if its only 399 dollars. Unlike some xbox fans i think the Neo will sell. Its not going to be that expensive compared to the PS4 right now.
Some of you guys are not interested in buying an xbox so the Neo should be something you be looking to buy?
Why even bother? This "upgrade" sounds so pointless. Will stick with my current PS4.
Why don't you just trade or sell your PS4.. The price point for Neo is good if its only 399 dollars. Unlike some xbox fans i think the Neo will sell. Its not going to be that expensive compared to the PS4 right now.
Some of you guys are not interested in buying an xbox so the Neo should be something you be looking to buy?
And support consoles becoming cell phones? No thanks.
Why even bother? This "upgrade" sounds so pointless. Will stick with my current PS4.
Why don't you just trade or sell your PS4.. The price point for Neo is good if its only 399 dollars. Unlike some xbox fans i think the Neo will sell. Its not going to be that expensive compared to the PS4 right now.
Some of you guys are not interested in buying an xbox so the Neo should be something you be looking to buy?
And support consoles becoming cell phones? No thanks.
You already have the PS4 surely you be able to get back 300 dollars still for a PS4? You going to be left behind eventually if you don't upgrade?
For those looking to upgrade to PS4 then i would just wait till Sony announces the NEO it may only cost you an extra 50 dollars for the upgrade.
Why even bother? This "upgrade" sounds so pointless. Will stick with my current PS4.
Why don't you just trade or sell your PS4.. The price point for Neo is good if its only 399 dollars. Unlike some xbox fans i think the Neo will sell. Its not going to be that expensive compared to the PS4 right now.
Some of you guys are not interested in buying an xbox so the Neo should be something you be looking to buy?
And support consoles becoming cell phones? No thanks.
You already have the PS4 surely you be able to get back 300 dollars still for a PS4? You going to be left behind eventually if you don't upgrade?
For those looking to upgrade to PS4 then i would just wait till Sony announces the NEO it may only cost you an extra 50 dollars for the upgrade.
How would I be left behind? The Neo IS a PS4. You lems are pretending this is a generational leap just because Xbone to Scorpio is.
@NathanDrakeSwag: Correction, the Neo is not a PS4.. The Neo is a new console with different hardware internals that shares backwards/forwards compatibility with the PS4.. Just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio..
But you're right, there's no reason to upgrade if you don't care about the increased performance since they both will share the same gaming library (again, just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio)..
@NathanDrakeSwag: Correction, the Neo is not a PS4.. The Neo is a new console with different hardware internals that shares backwards/forwards compatibility with the PS4.. Just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio..
But you're right, there's no reason to upgrade if you don't care about the increased performance since they both will share the same gaming library (again, just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio)..
Until they decide to allow devs to create exclusives for the new consoles to boost sales.
@04dcarraher: True, that's definitely a possibility.. Let's keep in mind though, that software sales are where the true money is being made.. In the near future, 50 million PS4s and let's say 10 million Neos are basically 60 million potential customers for your game.. Why try and only cater to the 10 million?..
Even if it gets to the point of equal numbers between the PS4 and the Neo, a dev can still double their potential sales by not making a game soley for Neo.. So it seems like this strategy may hold..
But I'm sure that once a PS5 is released, the required support for PS4 games will go away and the Neo will be the new baseline.. Same for the next Xbox.. Once a successor to Project Scorpio is made, Xbox One support will no longer be mandated and the Scorpio will become the new baseline.. Essentially we are still getting our "generations" of consoles like we have before, it's just that those people that want more performance at the mid-cycle will now have that option..
Also have look on the other side of the coin as well with the devs being limited in hardware abilities with the slower consoles. This limits the scope and complexity of the base of the game their creating because of cpu and gpu being much slower.
@ronvalencia: Basically the CPU only becomes an issue on very high fps levels/"low" resolutions/cpu intensive games, like you can make a difference in witcher 3 f.e by running it on 80fps+, I can have my oc'd 2600k i7 tap out on 1080p before my gpu does
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
Scorpio's 42 percent higher GPU power is backed by 46 percent higher memory bandwidth and both Scorpio and NEO has the same unified memory architecture. i.e. Xbox Scorpio wouldn't be gimped by XBO's harder to program fast and tiny memory storage 32Mb ESRAM.
PS4's 1.4X over XBO didn't deliver true 1.4X i.e.
Memory bandwidth: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
CPU: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
CPU I/O: PS4 failed to deliver 1.4X over XBO
Xbox Scorpio is being designed with Oculus VR considerations hence it's CPU will be significantly superior to NEO e.g. Fallout 4 PC VR would run on Scorpio without major re-factoring.
Oculus VR's Intel i5-4590 equivalent CPU is a generation leap from current console AMD Jaguar CPU cores.
RX-480 has 232 mm^2 chip area size
Scorpio SoC's 362 mm^2 - 232 mm^2 = 130 mm^2.
AMD's 8 core FX ZEN near SoC (missing IGP) estimated size is 122mm^2 to 133 mm^2.
AMD's FX ZEN AM4 includes 8 core CPU, North-bridge, South-bridge and two 64bit memory controllers.
Current Xbox One's SoC size is 363 mm^2.
2.0 Ghz AMD ZEN 8 core would have about 400 GFLOPS i.e. 4X increase over PS4's CPU solution.
When CPU and GPU are combined, Scorpio SoC is a generation jump from Xbox One.
Note that Xbox Scorpio's SoC can be recycled for MS's Surface desktop PC (i.e. Apple iMac like solution) and it can run Adobe Photoshop i.e. higher clocked CPU with similar class GPU.
Xbox Scorpio's SoC design can be recycled for Apple iMac and Microsoft's Surface desktop PC e.g. 128bit DDR4 with two module HBMv2 variant.
Nice story, but how much is just speculation? Where did that Scorpio APU pic come from? Because the intro video didn't have the dimensions listed. Is there any reliable source to corroborate that there will not be embedded RAM? Even with an increased bandwidth to compensate, you're still having to deal with the physical distance and interface layer to move that pool off-die; complicating compatibility with the Xbox One titles that used it. I've referred to the video and there's really no indication to two different memory types being used or one of them being HBM. Where is this coming from? And what does reusing the APU for the Surface have to do with anything (which your link claims will use an Intel solution)?
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
The percentage is an irrelevance without proper context, the 40% in terms of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One was basically just the difference between 900p and 1080p in most instances, 633,600 pixels. For systems like Neo and Scorpio that 42% is going to be the resolution rendering difference of 3840x2160 vs. 3325x1871, or in other words roughly 2,073,000 pixels, an entire 1080p frame larger image.
The proper context? You mean how the more pixels you put in a screen, the smaller they are and the more difficult it is to see small variations? That kind of context? It's not like the Neo is just going to leave those pixels blank. There's also the possibility of a frame-rate variation which could lower the resolution difference, but it's all just speculation at this point.
Nathandrakeswag, what are you going to do when the NEO comes out and PS loses all their exclusives? Are you going to have as much butt hurt as you exhibited above? I suspect you will have double standards to go along with your double alts.
Shed tears of joy since exclusives are no longer important according to lemmings like you..hahahaha
By your argument PC has no exclusives..lol
@ronvalencia said:
As a Hermit, hardware superiority means 1.4X at every major parts in the computing device. Hitman's inversion shouldn't happen if PS4 was 100 percent 1.4X.
XBO's performance extraction needs workarounds e.g. TMU for ROPS, hence the programmer has to program via compute shaders/TMU(write) path not the traditional vertex/pixel shading/ROPS path. Hitman has used async compute. TMU/ROPS workaround doesn't fix ALU bound issues.
Project Cars didn't seem to advance beyond MT rendering on PS4.
Higher memory bandwidth has to be back by higher FLOPS.
Higher FLOPS has to be back by higher memory bandwidth.
Learn from NVIDIA's example i.e. balanced FLOPS increase with effective memory bandwidth increase.
XBO's 1600x900p limits, you have major factors at play and these are
1. ALU bound. TMUs can write to memory bandwidth limit on either ESRAM or DDR3.
2. ESRAM bound without tiling or split rendering(rendering on both DDR3 and ESRAM). Sniper Elite 3 used the tiling workaround to reach 1920x1080p.
There are major performance cliffs when not using workaround solutions.
Btw, 32 ROPS can still scale to RX-480 level when given higher effective memory bandwidth (mostly done by memory compression).
That is total bulldshit and you know it since i quoted Iam Bell it self stating that the 7% of DX12 also apply to the PS4 if the same code was use,in fact he claim that the 7% improvement they got on DX11X also bringed a little more performance to the PS4 as well.
By the way let me refresh your pathetic memory.
@tormentos:
The 40% gain is for PC no xbox one he was ask about xbox one and he fled,and in the page before it he stated that gains of DX12 also apply to the PS4 so if the difference was 5 vs 3 now it will be 7 vs 5 because the same performance gains also apply to the PS4.
This is on the 30 to 40% gain with DX12 which you were incredibly fast to ride.
@ronvalencia said:
The question AND topic are for frame rate issues for XBO and DX12 improvements.
PC (with AMD GPU)'s improvements are more than 40 percent i.e. just switching to Windows 10 gains about 40 percent fps increase while STILL running DX11.
AMD haven't released a driver specific for PCARS.
Hahahahaa You claiming it was for 40% for the xbox one.
By the way that thread was done by Antwan3K and on it,YOU him,@04dcarraher tdkmilksy,kingtito,NyaDC (AKA Virtualflop) and basically every one who was mocking me and making arguments about how it was on xbox got burn.
You GOT BURN claiming 40% was for XBO..lol Worse you try to claim that it improved 14% using the 7% it gain on DX11.X + DX12 which wasn't the case it won 7% period.
But again you ignore my question to what amount i showed on Project cars Screen.?
Now don't run away and answer.
By the way same game and the games is almost always faster on PS4 by some 12...lol
@cainetao11 said:
Almost 3 years ago. And here you are still clinging to a rumor. At least when I bring up things Sony effed up, they are factual, past screw ups. You're clinging to a rumor that is years old. Why? Why do you want Xbox gone so much? They aren't stopping you from buying your PS.
LOL I love you telling me, what I am probably seeing now from MS. Do you own stock in them? Have you ever attended a shareholder's conference? Do you receive quarterlies? Do you even realize when a person buys SNE on the NYSE, it isn't actual shares? Stop dude. You're out of your league in this area.
Boy you lemming sure deny rumors,even after all freaking rumors for MS have being 100% true,deny it all you want the fact alone that MS payed capcom,crytek,and,insomniac and many other to have their games exclusives show the reality of what happen,sunset still exclusive.
No i don't have to i just read the article on how they use android patents to hide loses from surface and xbox one on 2013 from people like you.
So i should say people outside are more informed than people like you.
Fact is MS games are on PC because xbox sales SUCK game wise,all its software is under performing vs the xbox 360.
@Antwan3K said:
@tormentos: You have no idea what you're talking about.. The entire premise of the Universal Windows Platform is "code once, distribute everywhere".. For example, I have a Lumia 950XL and a Surface Pro 3.. The exact same apps appear in their shared Windows Store.. Not different versions of the same app for mobile phone and for tablet/desktop, literally the same app.. Those UWP apps are now coming to Xbox One due to the unified store being applied to all Windows 10 devices.. As a matter of fact, some UWP apps are already showing up on the XB1 due to the Preview Program.. So with UWP and a unified store, the same game/app I see on my Xbox One Windows Store is the same game/app I see on my Surface Pro 3 and is the same game/app I see on my Lumia 950XL.. Literally the same game/app from the same store..
You can't download a separate game from the PC store and a separate game from the Xbox One store when they both will be using the same UNIFIED WINDOWS STORE.. It's a single store and I can download up to 10 copies of a game or app from that Store across all my Windows 10 devices..
Again, let me spell this out for you: A Windows 10 PC is a Windows 10 device and an Xbox One is a Windows 10 device.. Universal Windows Platform games/apps are designed to be coded once and available everywhere across all Windows 10 devices.. All Windows 10 devices will share the same unified Windows Store.. That Windows Store will have Universal Windows Platform games/apps.. So when I buy/download Gears of War 4 for Xbox One, I'll simply be downloading an additional copy of that same game for my Surface Book 2 (or whatever gaming laptop I decide on).. That copy of the game will literally be the same game from the same store..
Geez dude, you post walls of crap filled with charts and graphs but can't understand what a "unified store" is?..
Stop when you prove to me that you can install XBO game on PC you will have a point other wise you are wasting your time and mine,nothing you say will change the fact that YOU CAN'T RUN XBOX ONE GAMES ON PC AND YOU CAN'T RUN PC GAMES ON XBOX ONE PERIOD.
Using the same store mean shit when you have to download a different version.
Is not even close to what happen with Neo period,Neo is a stronger PS4 but all its games work with the PS4 and the other way around,they just don't use the same store,save,and online they are for all intended purposes the same thing as a PC,were you have a 7850 vs a Fury and 8 core CPU with faster peed in the end is consider 1 and its games exclusives,you don't see people saying that Star Citizen is not exclusives because you can play it in 10 different hardwares.
@ronvalencia said:
My Haswell Corei7-4770K/4790K can still rivals Skylake Core i7-6770K
IvyBridge-E? That's a minority i.e. expensive Xeon type motherboards marketed to very high end PC gamers.
Anything beyond PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB/s read and 16 GB/s write limits are wasting $$$$$$ on memory modules.
You are not giving me any gaming use cases to upgrade towards Intel Core i7 Extreme Editions.
I'm not running CrossFire or SLI gaming PCs i.e. 10 to 12 TFLOPS GPU power. Game consoles are not running SLI or CrossFire GPUs with 10 to 12 TFLOPS GPU power.
If my current CPUs bottlenecks Vega 10 or 1080 Ti, I'll upgrade, but game consoles doesn't have the GPU level to warrant Broadwell-E/Skylake-E level CPU power.
Stop making bullshit claims and tell me on what the fu** CPU and System will run on scorpio since 320GB/s is all for GPU based on your supreme knowledge...
@navyguy21 said:
@tormentos
Then no, you dont understand what it is. As i thought, you are viewing it in the traditional sense.........meaning you probably dont see why Play Anywhere is a big deal in the industry, probably think it is like Cross Buy on Playstation.
At the risk of you ignoring this.............which you probably will................i will attempt to explain.
Microsoft is using Universal Windows Platform (UWP) to develop games (or if 3rd parties want to use it). This allows devs to say........develop the PC version and have it automatically scaled to other platforms through software. This is why the games run like shit on PC to be honest but it works. It is not the same as releasing 2 disks and having cross buy, or having 1 disk work on both. It is no different than PS4/Neo, in that the scaling is done in software, only the games are digital rather than physical. Sony can control the hardware (Neo), MS has no control over what you put in your PC. The hardware in Neo is different than PS4, just as hardware in PCs is different than XB1 or Surface.
MS...........or ANY company.............could make a disc that works on consoles and PC. It is very easy for them to do because they own the software, they own the DRM.
Problem is that not many PC's have a BluRay drive, so that wasnt possible to do, nor does any surface device had disc drives.
For universal compatibility they had to go digital with it.
Again, you will ignore this because you dont want it to be true because it will destroy cows argument about no exclusives, no games, or whatever.
Youll accuse me of being a lemming without proof because there is none. (check my posting history)
Youre even arguing with @ronvalencia, someone who has time and again proven he knows what he is talking about and backs it up with facts. You ignore all of it and repeat just what you want to hear, what you agree with based on your own biases.
Reading your posts is like talking politics with someone who watches Fox News regularly, extremely frustrating because you actually believe that nonsense.
1-Let me tell you something Neo and the PS4 doesn't work even close to UWP,for starters UWP is for MS store games,anything outside is totally incompatible,you can't play it on XBL you don't get cross buy or anything this is not in any way how Neo and PS4 operate,Neo and PS4 as backward and forward compatible with 100% of its games,including games outside sony stores,including multiplatforms,so i can blast COD AW on PS4 or Neo,you can't play COD AW on xbox one and PC without buying 2 versions.
2-It makes the xbox one irrelevant so does scorpio regardless of giving you 3 versions for the price of 1,because you don't need 3 hardware to play the game just 1 having the game in multiple platforms only benefit those who have a XBO and PC which are a minority,he rest would have to chose,funny enough if a PC gamer saw an xbox exclusive it like,now he doesn't have to buy one he just buy the game on PC,with the added bonus of not paying $60 for online play like you and other lemms would have to do.
3-MS doesn't own shit outside windows stores,it can't have Steam games on it unless developers allow it,unless they turn the xbox one into a open PC and we all know what that means.
4-The problem is it was an afterthought,which is why it doesn't work,the code is not exactly the same and we heard carmack complain on that just a few days ago,on how even that DX12 is XBO and PC the code differ and was telling people they should use Vulkan.
WTF your posting history is there should i quote the endless arguments you had with me,or have you forget about them already.? Most of your post here (which you rarely post now) are pro xbox.
5-Ronvalencia is a BLIND BIASED Lemming and AMD ass kisser every one know this on the forums 90% of Ronvalencia arguments here are always PRO xbox,even to the point of making shitty claims and using hardware which doesn't represent the freaking xbox at all in his quest to win.
Since you claim he knows so much why don't you ask him from the 320GB/s that Scorpio has how the fu** the CPU and GPU will operate because he is arguing time and time again Scorpio full bandwidth sv GPU like the RX480 on its endless quest to prove Scorpio will perform better than a PC with an equivalent GPU something that has fu**ing fail to materialise by both the xbox one and PS4 and at least i am big enough to admit it,the PS4 has constantly under perform vs a 7850 something the xbox one has done vs the 7770 as well constantly,but some how he use scorpio whole bandwidth vs the RX480 to try to argue that Scorpio will perform better.
Ronvalencia is one of the biggest lemmings on this site,in fact the dude some ways ago argue that since the xbox one is backward compatible that mean the xbox 360 still is selling and for that reason the 360 was still ahead of the PS3..
That was a Ronvalencia argument were ever you believe it or not,the guy you claim that knows so much,just look at the top of this post,how i easily make him look like a fool,i told him Project Cars 30 to 40% DX12 was for PC and he refuse to admit ti and quickly started making his silly argument,sadly soon after the developer of the game came out and clear the miss understanding it was 7% not 30 to 40% like they claim,a few other on this thread also got burn on that one.
@loe12k said:
The difference between the PS4 and xbox one was 500tflops. The xbox one is 1.32 i believe teraflops PS4 1.84tflops. There could be a difference of 2tflops or more if Sony releases the Neo at 4 teraflops?
The gap would be lot larger compared to this gen.
No it will be more or less what it is now,because of diminishing returns.
Scorpio is 6000Gflops Neo is 4,200 Gflops.
That mean Scorpio has 42% more Gflops.
The PS4 has 40% more Gflops than the XBO.
I am sure they will be more or less on the same spot.
How hard can it be to reach 4K with a good steady fps? My current 970 is eating a lot of titles maxed on 4K.
Rubbish... my 970 is overclocked to match a 980 stock ... and 1440p is sub-60fps (35-40fps) on games like the Witcher 3.
Older games, or games designed with low end rigs in mind maybe... Overwatch for example I get 100 FPS average at 1440p... imagine around 60 at 4k maybe at best?
Then again, alot of the most fun games are not power houses these days anyway.
He's an opportunist, he's uses examples of questionable development to form a point that in general doesn't conform with the rest of reality.
e.g. him using the problem riddled Hitman to show 'how little' the difference is between 3 teraflops when in every other game it's a massive difference, Doom for example with Vulkan.
lol wrong again el tormentos .... dat damage control
Pcars on pc was not even correctly coded to use multithreading ie focused on single thread to feed gpu data on cpu at that time because of DX9 base code (ignoring facts again). X1 had proper deferred multithreading from the start, Ron never stated pcars on X1 would see 40% increase yet you left out the fact that DX12 on X1 would still see an improvement when in fact you said it wont see nothing..
@tormentos: Dude seriously, stop adding me in your asinine long quote chains please.
A rumor from 3 years ago. What is the statute of limitations on it? When rumors of Scorpio came out it was months before being proven. It's been 3 years, and the CEO of the company has openly addressed those rumors after they came up 3 years ago . If it were Kaz, your lover, it would have been good enough to be the end of it. 3 years. You're still holding onto it when this company just announced two new consoles SKUs. It's absurd dude.
The point was that you don't seem to understand is you can get a general idea of expected performance by looking at the TFLOPS of a device within its own hardware line. Also you yet again need to understand that the hardware disparity between Neo and Scorpio is essentially that of a PlayStation 4 GPU in excess of what Neo offers, that's a huge difference and in every instance Scorpio is going to slaughter Neo, undebatable.
I don't care what you think you 'proved', a GPU that is within the same architectural lineage which is Teraflops above another is going to slaughter the lesser device in every instance, on consoles this will be even more pronounced due to the sheer level of metal to metal application specific coding.
So what you're saying is, the 40% more GPU power the PS4 had than the Xbox One is miniscule, but the 41% more GPU power the Scorpio will have over the Neo is HUGE? Um....
The percentage is an irrelevance without proper context, the 40% in terms of the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One was basically just the difference between 900p and 1080p in most instances, 633,600 pixels. For systems like Neo and Scorpio that 42% is going to be the resolution rendering difference of 3840x2160 vs. 3325x1871, or in other words roughly 2,073,000 pixels, an entire 1080p frame larger image.
The proper context? You mean how the more pixels you put in a screen, the smaller they are and the more difficult it is to see small variations? That kind of context? It's not like the Neo is just going to leave those pixels blank. There's also the possibility of a frame-rate variation which could lower the resolution difference, but it's all just speculation at this point.
The context of this being rendering and things need to be properly related to how they scale, the 40% difference between the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 was a mere 530 Gigaflops or in other words 0.53 Teraflops, the 42% difference between Neo and Scorpio is 1,800 Gigaflops or in other words 1.8 Teraflops, basically an entire PlayStation 4 more powerful.
@NathanDrakeSwag: Correction, the Neo is not a PS4.. The Neo is a new console with different hardware internals that shares backwards/forwards compatibility with the PS4.. Just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio..
But you're right, there's no reason to upgrade if you don't care about the increased performance since they both will share the same gaming library (again, just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio)..
This is what i find pathetic and down right moronic.
How can't any PC gamer step in and correct the little rodent is beyond logic,we have some so call hermit but that one spend more time defending the xbox one than PC..lol
So a PC with a 7850 is a PC but a PC with a 680Ti is not.?
I would love to hear your pathetic damage control on this one and subsequent spin..lol
Neo is a PS4 is a stronger PS4 but a PS4 never the less,just like a PC with a 7850 and a FX6300 is a much of a PC as one with a R390X and a FX8XXX as simple as that.
"Well, no, PS4 is PS4, you know the new high-end PS4 is still PS4, so you know the lifecycle is not going to be shorter," Yoshida said.
@NathanDrakeSwag: Correction, the Neo is not a PS4.. The Neo is a new console with different hardware internals that shares backwards/forwards compatibility with the PS4.. Just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio..
But you're right, there's no reason to upgrade if you don't care about the increased performance since they both will share the same gaming library (again, just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio)..
This is what i find pathetic and down right moronic.
How can't any PC gamer step in and correct the little rodent is beyond logic,we have some so call hermit but that one spend more time defending the xbox one than PC..lol
So a PC with a 7850 is a PC but a PC with a 680Ti is not.?
I would love to hear your pathetic damage control on this one and subsequent spin..lol
Neo is a PS4 is a stronger PS4 but a PS4 never the less,just like a PC with a 7850 and a FX6300 is a much of a PC as one with a R390X and a FX8XXX as simple as that.
"Well, no, PS4 is PS4, you know the new high-end PS4 is still PS4, so you know the lifecycle is not going to be shorter," Yoshida said.
As soon as a system has different integrated hardware and runs separate lines of code it is no longer the same system, I don't care what Sony says, I don't care what moronic forum posters say, it's a different system, Scorpio is as well.
Neo and Scorpio are not the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One.
@NathanDrakeSwag: Correction, the Neo is not a PS4.. The Neo is a new console with different hardware internals that shares backwards/forwards compatibility with the PS4.. Just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio..
But you're right, there's no reason to upgrade if you don't care about the increased performance since they both will share the same gaming library (again, just like the Xbox One and Project Scorpio)..
This is what i find pathetic and down right moronic.
How can't any PC gamer step in and correct the little rodent is beyond logic,we have some so call hermit but that one spend more time defending the xbox one than PC..lol
So a PC with a 7850 is a PC but a PC with a 680Ti is not.?
I would love to hear your pathetic damage control on this one and subsequent spin..lol
Neo is a PS4 is a stronger PS4 but a PS4 never the less,just like a PC with a 7850 and a FX6300 is a much of a PC as one with a R390X and a FX8XXX as simple as that.
"Well, no, PS4 is PS4, you know the new high-end PS4 is still PS4, so you know the lifecycle is not going to be shorter," Yoshida said.
@MBirdy88: You know it is not mandatory to max out everything right? Anti-aliasing is really not even necessary with 4K which save a lot of frames. All I'm saying is that 4K is more viable for gaming more than ever. People here make it seems like games won't even run on 4K without SLIing two or three titans.
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