Rumor: Sony improving Neo specs last minute to compete with Scorpio

Chances are that Neo is using the exact same chip as Scorpio but with less shader units activated.

It should be a case of telling AMD they want chips with more active cores and then redesigning the power supply and heat sink to cope with the extra requirements.

Its all dependent on if they have extra power and cooling potential available not affecting lifespan and stability.

RX-480 has 256 GB/s

RX-470 has 211 GB/s

Raw memory bandwidth difference: 1.21X (memory compression and memory bandwidth efficiency are constants).

RX-480 has 59.3 fps

RX-470 has 47.2 fps

Frame rate difference: 1.26X

RX-480 has 5.83 TFLOPS

RX-470 has 4.94 TFLOPS

FLOPS difference: 1.18X

At 1920x1080p, memory bandwidth's 1.21X difference still influences 1.26X frame rate difference.

333 GB/s effective memory bandwidth is enough for native 4K/~30 since this is similar to Fury X's effective memory bandwidth and it's higher than R9-390X's effective memory bandwidth.

~666 Gb/s effective memory bandwidth is enough for native 4K/~60 e.g. Titan X Pascal.

RX-9XX's >256bit bus guidelines are not paper weight.

RX-9XX is superior to both RX-470 and RX-480.

Scorpio is the first games console to jump on 384 bit memory bus equipped video card.

Doesn't really matter since they said all Neo games must work on the original PS4 anyways, thus gimping the games to the lowest common denominator.

It's not much different to PC games. Doom Vulkan has hit-the-metal optimizations for AMD GPUs and it's still scales from low-to-high end AMD GPUs.

Except if they had made doom just for GTX 1080 cards, we'd probably have a very different far better looking game. So consoles are now losing that advantage and have to scale for low end hardware (PS4/X1) with improved graphics for the new consoles, rather than catering to the max potential of the hardware for the new consoles only.

Oh really? Fury X Vulkan almost rivals to GTX 1080 OpenGL(with NVIDIA extensions) . Doom 2016 is a game that shows TFLOPS power instead of memory bandwidth i.e. GTX 1080 has ~9 TFLOPS while Scorpio has 6 TFLOPS.

R9-Fury X's raw 8.6 TFLOPS exposed with Vulkan+Async Compute+AMD Intrinsics+No Nvidia tessellation over draw politics (it wouldn't exist on consoles).

980 Ti's 6.4 TFLOPS gap with Fury X's 8.6 TFLOPS is 1.34X

Doom Vulkan's framerate gap between 980 Ti and Fury X is 1.30X

AMD GCN hardware is fine, but the AMD DX11/OGL driver is not on par with NVidia's DX11/OGL driver.

When there's sufficient shader (FLOPS) resources, the major bottleneck is the effective memory bandwidth i.e. ALUs needs to read and write the results to memory.

If a PC game was designed for GTX 1080 at 1920x1080 at 60 fps and max details, lesser PC GPUs can run the same game at less resolution or less frame rates i.e. less pixels = less workload.

GTX 1080 has 577 GB/s effective memory bandwidth. http://techreport.com/review/30281/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-graphics-card-reviewed/6

For memory bandwidth bound games, Scorpio's 333 GB/s (with Polaris' memory compression and efficiency) has 57 percent of GTX 1080's 577 GB/s effective memory bandwidth.

Lmao using PC graphs for console hardware..... what a pointless thing to do.

Microsoft could easily make changes to the Scorpio because it's at least 14 months away. Sony could have 2 SKU's like you said, but if they do, they had better announce both on Sept 7, because PS4 fanboys will be fuming if they release a PS4 Neo that's slightly powerful and then a 5.5TP PS4 Neo 2 in 2017 without anyone knowing in advance. Seems a lot of people cared about the power which is why everyone flocked to the XBox 360. The one of the many reasons gamers went with the PS4 as well. That was before there was a lot of games on the PS4. Gamers will flock to the XBox Scorpio as well. Especially if the price is right.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-we-built-a-pc-with-playstation-neo-gpu-tech

In our Face-Offs, we like to get as close a lock as we can between PC quality presets and their console equivalents in order to find the quality sweet spots chosen by the developers. Initially using Star Wars Battlefront, The Witcher 3 and Street Fighter 5 as comparison points with as close to locked settings as we could muster, we were happy with the performance of our 'target PS4' system. The Witcher 3 sustains 1080p30, Battlefront hits 900p60, SF5 runs at 1080p60 with just a hint of slowdown on the replays - just like PS4. We have a ballpark match, and we would expect to see similar on our 'Neo' set-up.

Furthermore, Doom Vulkan has AMD's hit-the-metal optimizations.

"going to be the king of th block" didnt help PS3. or have you idiot lems forgotten 360 had exclusive and time and power advantage over PS3 for a long, long time.

The PlayStation 3 was an essential match for the Xbox 360 in terms of power, it did some things better and others it faltered primarily multi-platform games. Scorpio is not a comparable situation to the PlayStation 3, Microsoft's aim is not to match Neo, it's intended to surpass it on every front.

In terms of compute power, Scorpio is an entire PlayStation 4 more powerful than Neo, is intended to provide native 4K gaming and also VR without the need for interpolation.

And that doesn't prove a thing.....

Why does is not then? Fact is that we know the hardware's processing power and specs its not that hard to get off the shelf parts based on similar performance and same or related architecture and test. In multiplatform games the results from this method of testing is on par with what the consoles are getting. So its safe to assume that RX 480 being downclocked to Neo's rumored clockrates is a good indication what to expect.

It will compete with Scorpio depite inferior hardware. Microsoft isn't exacty known for for pushing tech.

WTF? Xbox One has DirectX 12 with AMD GPU's hit-the-metal intrinsics.

People runs businesses and Xbox division has a different leadership team.

The facts are "more than 320 GB/s of memory bandwidth", 384 bit GDDR5 layout, 6 TFLOPS GPU and about 362 mm^2 size System-on-Chip. Polaris 10 has 232 mm^2 size chip.

Scorpio's dev kit existence

https://twitter.com/XboxP3/status/761227457445756928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Polaris 10 variant with 384 bit memory bus SKU?

@ronvalencia: Was reading some stuff about Sony upping RAM to 12GB. How woukd that affect performance in your opinion if that were to happen (Im sure other enhancements would also come into play)

Supply the link for NEO's 12 GB upgrade.

Due to GDDR5's uniform chip density considerations, 12 GB GDDR5 will require 384 bit memory bus with current RX-470/480's GDDR5 chip density i.e. 1 GB per GDDR5 chip and there's 12 chips.

8 GDDR5 chips at 1 GB density = 8 GB

12 GDDR5 chips at 1 GB density = 12 GB

Each GDDR5 chip has 32 bit memory bus.

The next step up for 256 bit memory bus is 16 GB not 12 GB with 2GB density per GDDR5 chip..

384 bit memory bus would require PCB change and most likely too late for NEO.

256 bit bus supports 4 GB to 8 GB upgrade but not 12 GB upgrade.

The source for 12 GB for NEO is questionable.

They can change the problem is how much.?

They can't just slap a Fury inside Scorpio because of TDP worse since both consoles use APU for cost reduction,AMD can't just slap any GPU inside an APU,the ones on PC are lean more toward CPU which is why you see 4ghz APU on PC,but on the GPU side they are weak.

No i don't think the 2 sku were for the market the rumor was sony had 2 sku and wasn't sure which of the 2 would keep and which would be faceout.

People didn't flock to the 360 because of power it was up to $300 cheaper than the PS3 1 year before the PS3 was even launch,on a time were the highest price was $299 for a console price had more to do with US gamers buying a 360 than power,also MS secures some great games before the PS3 was even launch.

I already explained to you how 3TF of power yielded 10 FPS more of difference between a Fury vs the R290 this GPU have diminishing returns,so 1.8TF would not deliver a huge gap you people are pretending to.

And Scorpio will run into problems in 4K as well it will run depending on the settings,it can achieve it easier than Neo but still 6TF is not a GPU with true 4k ultra capabilities.

How much of those 320GBs are for system and CPU.?

Man stop reading into MS vague claims, Phil Spencer clearly claimed it was a 6TF Machine not a 6TF GPU again those specs are weak 320GB/s 12GB or ram 6TF machine almost nothing is knows and you are assuming and already giving chip sizes and all based on pictures it is a joke man.

Answer me this did MS claim the 320GB/s were solely for GPU.?

Yes or no.

You guys can compare bullshit graphs all you want. Scorpio will release a year late just like the Original Xbox. The original Xbox was also more powerful than PS2. Did that matter? Nope. Nobody gave a **** they all still went with PS2 because it had the games. You think third party Devs are going to make exclusive games for Scorpio cut 80% their profits? Yeah right. And Microsoft has no first party studios so it's not like there's going to be some kind of wave of graphics powerhouse exclusives coming out for it. Shyyyt a GTX 1080 has 8 tflops and can barely hit 60fps/4K on the Division. Wtf is Scorpio gonna do? Lol nothing.

YES YES the xbox brand has taken a huge hit this gen and need to earn there place next to Sony PS4 + Neo

The facts are Sony is leading when it comes to pushing hardware on consoles. Ps4 Neo may not have 4k but has a clear advantage in many areas that are more important like animation. You can sit here and argue specs all day but dev talent is most important. Sony can throw money at their studios like Sony Santa Monica and wreck shit up. The Scorpio doesn't have that luxury no matter how you spin flip or twist it..

No

Now you answer this yes or no

Did Microsoft say at least 320GB/s shared across the system?

remember yes or no answer only, your rules.

No.

But then again did they claim 320GB/s was all GPU.?

Did they claim 12GB memory just for Vram.?

Remember Yes or no..

Those are shared numbers across systems,and considering i even quote Phil Spencer talking about scorpio as a 6TF machine rather than a console with a 6TF GPU i would say the whole 6TF as well could be CPU+ GPU.

This generation MS has being far from honest and most of their PR needs to be read by some one with a PHD in PR marketing.

Oh that without saying that this gen as well as last gen they try to add bandwidth as if it was orange in a pathetic attempt to claim superiority.

I see this thread has become yet another pissing match between the usual clowns

From Digital Foundry, R7-265 ~= PS4 regardless of CPU's memory bandwidth consumption. Stop being a hypocrite.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-we-built-a-pc-with-playstation-neo-gpu-tech

In our Face-Offs, we like to get as close a lock as we can between PC quality presets and their console equivalents in order to find the quality sweet spots chosen by the developers. Initially using Star Wars Battlefront, The Witcher 3 and Street Fighter 5 as comparison points with as close to locked settings as we could muster, we were happy with the performance of our 'target PS4' system. The Witcher 3 sustains 1080p30, Battlefront hits 900p60, SF5 runs at 1080p60 with just a hint of slowdown on the replays - just like PS4.

Scorpio is just a better "PS4" hardware.

Again, Scorpio's developers has stated 6 TFLOPS GPU. You are interpreting Phil's statement instead of using MS's interpretation.

Scorpio's 362 mm^2 size chip is similar to XBO's 363 mm^2 size chip which is larger than PS4's 348 mm^2 budget.

If you want to use only use Phil Spenser's statements...

http://www.wired.com/2016/06/xbox-vr-scorpio-phil-spencer/

Spencer says, developers are usually building a PC version of any given game alongside the Xbox version—and increasingly, that means a 4K version. “When we started looking at Scorpio,” he says, “we asked the partners, ‘in order to build a true high-fidelity 4K game, what capabilities do you need?’ That’s what we designed Scorpio around. It’s kind of like a [GeForce GTX] 980 card on the PC. I get the capability that I need as a developer to deliver a high-fidelity 4K game. ”

GeForce GTX 980 has superior effective memory bandwidth over NEO, RX-470 and RX-480.

NEO has GPU solution slower than RX-470 i.e. GTX 980 will crush it.

Scorpio's GPU solution is faster than stock RX-480 and R9-390X

The only joke is your post.

Back in 2013, PS4's lead was mostly driven by better hardware specs since both game console started from ground zero.

Your post is bullshit. Are you expecting Nvidia Gameworks code (e.g. HFTS/PCSS, HBAO+, Spot Shadow Resolution, over tessellated Volumetric Fog) which is optimized for NVidia GPUs to exist in Xbox One game build? AMD has it's equivalent effects from GPUopen.

NVidia NVAPI has hit-the-metal access while AMD enabled similar hit-the-metal access in recent drivers for Doom Vulkan (in AMD's code path). The Division PC build is Nvidia Gameworks enabled title which is useless for Xbox One game build.

I don't recall 60fps/4K a requirement. Scorpio's memory bandwidth is more than enough for 30fps/4K and Freesync over HDMI reduced the need for 60 fps.

Example of near brain dead Xbox One ports running PC GPUs.

Frame rate difference between 980 Ti and R9-290X is 1.31X

Effective memory bandwidth between 980 Ti and R9-290X is 1.38X

Forza 6 Apex is another example for effective memory bandwidth influencing the frame rate result.

Phil Spenser's comments on running Forza Apex beta PC at 4K and GPU TFLOPS target.

Xbox One game builds = zero NVIDIA Gimpworks, zero AMD vs NVIDIA PC GPU politics.

No....

Both consoles started from ground zero.

Time to put an END to this thread

''It's worth stating that no development sources I've spoken to have knowledge of this, and all of the documentation open to developers - who are making Neo games now - still reports the same 2.1GHz Jaguar CPU cluster paired with a 4.2TF GPU.''

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-can-sony-upgrade-playstation-neo-specs-in-theory

DF's "Zen is such a radical departure from PS4's Jaguar core architecture that compatibility may been an issue there" assertion is a load of bullshit. PS4 is not a magic box.

Jaguar's instruction set support is identical to Intel Sandybridge and AMD Bulldozer.

ZEN's instruction set is a super-set of Jaguar's instruction set.

Only that part is true.

I already did.

THE END...

Your "NO" is false. PS4 wouldn't sell well if it has Radeon HD 8570M with 6 CU GPU at $399 price tag.

Opinion..

@dynamitecop: You are wrong. It is never too late to scrap something, eat a loss and then build something better that would be more profitable in the long wrong.

Yeah, Sony signed contracts with factories, but they can back out, stop it, improve it etc. You obviously don't understand business.

Sure it would be a dick move to factories, but Sony can always explain the situation with them and make a new deal. Worst case is Sony eats a small short term loss for a bigger gain in the long run.

Successful Businessmen are smart and would realize this.

"Hey factory suit guy, MS announced something bigger than our version, so let's be adults and figure out a solution that benefits us both."

Well, will Sony make the system more powerful I don't know, are they satisfied with their current power of their new system we will find out next month. At the end MS will have the advantage in making their console more powerful, seeing they will have a year to modify their system. While Sony might just have the upper hand in releasing their console early.

Oh brother Leadbetter is really running damage control for MS again..

Adding nine per cent to CPU clocks and seven per cent to the GPU would not have troubled the thermal solution whatsoever. Conversely, assuming Neo follows PS4's design philosophy, we should expect a traditional console-like design with a similar cooling assembly. PS4 already gets hotter and noisier than Xbox One

He is ASSUMING in other words what HE BELIEVES dude no clock can be rise,he doesn't know the design of the unit he is assuming again it is like the PS4.

The PS4 get hotter than the XBO? Once again we see Richard Leadbetter owning him self.

Digital Foundry own testing Done by Richard leadbetter as well.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-hardware-test-playstation-4

Digital Foundry own test done by the same Richard Leadbetter.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-xbox-one-hardware-test

This dude is a freaking xbox fan or is under pay by MS,he is all over the place when it comes to things sony and MS,and has being constantly bias toward the xbox to the point were Neogaf even make fun of him.

By hes own measurements the PS4 runs 5 degrees cooler than the xbox one running games while drawing 6 more watts,oh and this without taking into account that the PSU inside the PS4 also generate extra heat something the xbox one doesn't have internal.

Noisier sure the PS4 has a smaller fan that runs faster so is normal that it sounds louder.

We measure a peak of 125W consumed during gameplay and a 49 degrees Celsius case temperature (directly above the processor, so effectively the exhaust), in an ambient 23-degree environment - as close as we could get to our PlayStation 4 testing. That's 15W off our measured PS4 peak and almost the same temperature level. The difference is noise: Xbox One is a remarkably quiet machine

Look how he just brush off the xbox one running hotter claim almost the same temperature and never say the PS4 runs cooler,but when it is time for noise he quickly point how much quiet the xbox one is.

I am not saying the machine will get a clock increase,or spec bump at all but that article proves nothing,and Richard Leadbetter own its self again,because by testing done by him self the PS4 was cooler while running games than the xbox one.

Hypocrite my ass the 7850 beat the PS4 in many games let alone the R265 what the fu** are you talking about it has being one of the biggest complains.

Now STOP talking shit and tell has MS CLAIM that 100% of Scorpio 320GB/s is all for GPU.?

Yes or no.

Oh and i am not even bringing the damn CPU which no one knows anything about and that going by APU design from AMD it should be a weaksauce to run a 6TF GPU,is funny how they claim 6TF,12GB of ram and 320GB /s but on CPU just 8 core nothing more is say..lol

I expect Scorpio to fall behind the RX480 just like the PS4 has done with the R265 as well and the xbox one vs the 7770.

Bullshit PS name is bigger than the xbox name period better hardware had little to do with it,and the xbox was squash by the PS2 regardless of doubling it power wise and memory wise to.

Yes and the PS4 sold better better because.

1-It was $100 less.

2-Had more games.

3-MS bullshit policies which scared many.

4-Not every one cared about Kinect to sunk an extra $100.

5-The PS brand name is bigger than the xbox brand name world wide.

What if WHAT IF Sony improves Neo specs past Scorpio specs and its being released a year sooner? Yeah lems, think about that. Will you be able to sleep at all if this happens?

Then again, i only care about the NEO anyway, since i already have a gaming PC and Xbox exclusives are dead.

Na i don't think that would happen,without a delay.

Lol keep hope alive...

The powah of prayer. lol :P

It'd probably cost at least $599.

They can't just drop a GTX1070 in the console and call it a day. It takes a lot of time to design and develop a console.. If the console is scheduled to be released in a November then the factory is likely beginning production within a week or so (if it hasn't already begun). Furthermore, the chipset they would want to use likely isn't in mass production yet, and TSMC likely doesn't have the capacity to just slide it in to their schedule. The earliest a redesigned AMD sourced console could release from Sony is likely 1st quarter 2018. Its not going to happen.

Highly doubtful. Sony just need to get this out ASAP and think of it as a bridge-gen machine. Move onto PS5 R&D, if they haven't done already. Wonder if Lord Cerny is consulting again.

All you cows wishing on a star just need to wait for Sept 7th so your dreams can finally be put to bed.