Looking forward to this new platform. The Neoflop should be a decent little upgrade.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
@bunchanumbers: if its able to do 4k on every AAA title, why won't it cost $600? I expect the Scorpio to cost at least $500. We paid $400 (and $500 in the Bone case lol) for some underpowered garbage. A little bit more for an actually powerful console that is able to handle everything on Ultra/1080p is not a bad deal.
@bunchanumbers: if its able to do 4k on every AAA title, why won't it cost $600? I expect the Scorpio to cost at least $500. We paid $400 (and $500 in the Bone case lol) for some underpowered garbage. A little bit more for an actually powerful console that is able to handle everything on Ultra/1080p is not a bad deal.
It might not be a bad deal for consumers, but I wouldn't be surprised if it costs more than $599 to produce. It would more than likely end up being another PS3 situation where they sell at a loss. Even then having it happen this year would mean they abandoned all their previous development for the old Neo plans. I don't know if Sony would be pleased knowing that development budget was wasted.
From Digital Foundry, R7-265 ~= PS4 regardless of CPU's memory bandwidth consumption. Stop being a hypocrite.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-we-built-a-pc-with-playstation-neo-gpu-tech
Scorpio is just a better "PS4" hardware.
Again, Scorpio's developers has stated 6 TFLOPS GPU. You are interpreting Phil's statement instead of using MS's interpretation.
Scorpio's 362 mm^2 size chip is similar to XBO's 363 mm^2 size chip which is larger than PS4's 348 mm^2 budget.
If you want to use only use Phil Spenser's statements...
http://www.wired.com/2016/06/xbox-vr-scorpio-phil-spencer/
GeForce GTX 980 has superior effective memory bandwidth over NEO, RX-470 and RX-480.
NEO has GPU solution slower than RX-470 i.e. GTX 980 will crush it.
Scorpio's GPU solution is faster than stock RX-480 and R9-390X
The only joke is your post.
Hypocrite my ass the 7850 beat the PS4 in many games let alone the R265 what the fu** are you talking about it has being one of the biggest complains.
Now STOP talking shit and tell has MS CLAIM that 100% of Scorpio 320GB/s is all for GPU.?
Yes or no.
Oh and i am not even bringing the damn CPU which no one knows anything about and that going by APU design from AMD it should be a weaksauce to run a 6TF GPU,is funny how they claim 6TF,12GB of ram and 320GB /s but on CPU just 8 core nothing more is say..lol
I expect Scorpio to fall behind the RX480 just like the PS4 has done with the R265 as well and the xbox one vs the 7770.
Back in 2013, PS4's lead was mostly driven by better hardware specs since both game console started from ground zero.
Bullshit PS name is bigger than the xbox name period better hardware had little to do with it,and the xbox was squash by the PS2 regardless of doubling it power wise and memory wise to.
For the Scorpio's CPU. Refer to VR Oculus Rift's CPU requirement i.e. Intel i5 Haswell has 128 bit DDR3 support.
Your argument 7850 beating PS4 = pure CPU's memory bandwidth consumption is flawed and it doesn't negate recent examples that yields R7-265 ~= PS4. There's a specific programming structure to yield R7-265 ~= PS4.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-we-built-a-pc-with-playstation-neo-gpu-tech
In our Face-Offs, we like to get as close a lock as we can between PC quality presets and their console equivalents in order to find the quality sweet spots chosen by the developers. Initially using Star Wars Battlefront, The Witcher 3 and Street Fighter 5 as comparison points with as close to locked settings as we could muster, we were happy with the performance of our 'target PS4' system. The Witcher 3 sustains 1080p30, Battlefront hits 900p60, SF5 runs at 1080p60 with just a hint of slowdown on the replays - just like PS4.
Scorpio is not a new programming environment.
With Doom 2016 and budget PC CPUs
DF: "Our i3 budget PC plays most titles at console settings, but not in Doom's case.It falls short of 1080p60, even at low settings with a GTX 750 Ti or R7 360 installed."
For Doom 2016, PS4 version used multi-threading Async compute and AMD's GPU intrinsic functions just like PC Doom Vulkan AMD code path.
Your 64 GB/s = CPU memory bandwidth consumption argument is flawed as game console ported to PC's dot product yields doesn't reach this level of memory bandwidth when linked to typical 60 hz monitor's refresh rates i.e. limited by PCI-E 16X bus version 3.0 (peak 16 GB/s one direction write), and XBO/PS4 console level geometry/simulation logics limits i.e. PC being gimped by consoles CPU AI logics on console ported games. Note why "2133 Mhz x 128 bit" (34 GB/s) yields top end PC results.
Scorpio's CPU memory consumption budget has to run on both XBO and PS4 you fool.
PS4's CPU-to-GPU fusion link is limited to dual 10 GB/s links which is slightly better than PCI-E 16X version 2.0's 8 GB read + 8 GB/s write. The games are being programmed with this common denominator and higher grade PC boxes are a few times faster than this limitation i.e. PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB read + 16 GB/s write.
Polaris's primitive triangle culling hardware moves this CPU workload to the GPU i.e. reduce CPU load.
Consoles has reduce need for GPU driver side JIT-re-compiler hence another factor for reduce CPU load.
I expect Scorpio to be better than year 2016 RX-480.
@tormentos said:
@ronvalencia said:Both consoles started from ground zero.
Yes and the PS4 sold better better because.
1-It was $100 less.
2-Had more games.
3-MS bullshit policies which scared many.
4-Not every one cared about Kinect to sunk an extra $100.
5-The PS brand name is bigger than the xbox brand name world wide.
1. Part of hardware performance vs price factor.
2. Both consoles started from ground zero and both has similar launch title count.
http://au.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/Xbox_One_Launch_Titles
22 titles
http://au.ign.com/wikis/playstation-4/PlayStation_4_Launch_Titles
25 titles
3. Not much different to Steam or Google or Apple policies. The policies has been nuked before XBO's launch.
4. Part of hardware performance vs price factor.
5. Microsoft is the bigger brand world wide i.e. dominates a near monopoly Wintel market and the industry itself is far larger Sony's Play Station market.
In non-US and non-Japan markets, PC gaming dominates with Asian MMOs. Xbox 360's install base being similar to PS3 debunks your argument.
@tormentos said:
Bullshit PS name is bigger than the xbox name period better hardware had little to do with it,and the xbox was squash by the PS2 regardless of doubling it power wise and memory wise to.
Bullshit, Xbox's price was higher than PS2 i.e. MS didn't learn the lesson from 3DO. Xbox 360's install base being similar to PS3 debunks your argument.
The neo will get a power increase the same time MS unlocks the 2nd GPU in the XB1
Limited by AMD's year 2016 worst case working chip results.
For the Scorpio's CPU. Refer to VR Oculus Rift's CPU requirement i.e. Intel i5 Haswell has 128 bit DDR3 support.
Your argument 7850 beating PS4 = pure CPU's memory bandwidth consumption is flawed and it doesn't negate recent examples that yields R7-265 ~= PS4. There's a specific programming structure to yield R7-265 ~= PS4.
Scorpio is not a new programming environment.
With Doom 2016 and budget PC CPUs
DF: "Our i3 budget PC plays most titles at console settings, but not in Doom's case.It falls short of 1080p60, even at low settings with a GTX 750 Ti or R7 360 installed."
For Doom 2016, PS4 version used multi-threading Async compute and AMD's GPU intrinsic functions just like PC Doom Vulkan AMD code path.
Your 64 GB/s = CPU memory bandwidth consumption argument is flawed as game console ported to PC's dot product yields doesn't reach this level of memory bandwidth when linked to typical 60 hz monitor's refresh rates i.e. limited by PCI-E 16X bus version 3.0 (peak 16 GB/s one direction write), and XBO/PS4 console level geometry/simulation logics limits i.e. PC being gimped by consoles CPU AI logics on console ported games. Note why "2133 Mhz x 128 bit" (34 GB/s) yields top end PC results.
Scorpio's CPU memory consumption budget has to run on both XBO and PS4 you fool.
PS4's CPU-to-GPU fusion link is limited to dual 10 GB/s links which is slightly better than PCI-E 16X version 2.0's 8 GB read + 8 GB/s write. The games are being programmed with this common denominator and higher grade PC boxes are a few times faster than this limitation i.e. PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB read + 16 GB/s write.
Polaris's primitive triangle culling hardware moves this CPU workload to the GPU i.e. reduce CPU load.
Consoles has reduce need for GPU driver side JIT-re-compiler hence another factor for reduce CPU load.
I expect Scorpio to be better than year 2016 RX-480.
1. Part of hardware performance vs price factor.
2. Both consoles started from ground zero and both has similar launch title count.
http://au.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/Xbox_One_Launch_Titles
22 titles
http://au.ign.com/wikis/playstation-4/PlayStation_4_Launch_Titles
25 titles
3. Not much different to Steam or Google or Apple policies. The policies has been nuked before XBO's launch.
4. Part of hardware performance vs price factor.
5. Microsoft is the bigger brand world wide i.e. dominates a near monopoly Wintel market and the industry itself is far larger Sony's Play Station market.
In non-US and non-Japan markets, PC gaming dominates with Asian MMOs. Xbox 360's install base being similar to PS3 debunks your argument.
Bullshit, Xbox's price was higher than PS2 i.e. MS didn't learn the lesson from 3DO. Xbox 360's install base being similar to PS3 debunks your argument.
You will not get a i5 equivalent on Scorpio unless the console has separated components which will not happen,this is an APU so the stronger the GPU the smaller the room for a good CPU.
Oculus Rift demands mean shit Quantum Break demands a i5 on PC minimum yet it runs on a Jaguar on xbox one.
The end results is the same you can hold tied to CPU being the problem,fact is it has being beat by the 7850 just like the xbox one has being beat by the 7770,and since the xbox one will not have an i7 to get every single once of performance out of the GPU inside Scorpio i don´t see how they can get beat the RX480.
Scorpio will not have a i5 equivalent CPU,and it is the reason why it was keep silent like sony unless they go separate GPU and CPU there is no way they can pack a powerful 8 core CPU inside that APU.
Basically you are assuming it will have a i5 like CPU because oculus requires one,which is a joke since quantum break also requires one and runs on a jaguar on xbox one.
This is the same shit always some one is talking about something and you bring 100 irrelevant things.
1-Small Part.
2-Almost the same amount of games but not the same games,and the PS4 on its launch windows was getting more games faster.
3-Which didn't exist on the console market were console gamer are USE to trade their games,share them with friends to,that mentality about DRM is a PC one not a console one,which is why MS faced so much fire,they drop the policies but the DAMAGE WAS DONE.
4-No not wanting Kinect has nothing to do with power,they just didn't like the thing to fork $100 more for it.
5-Yes if we were talking about PC sure but gaming on consoles,MS kiss sony feet from here to the moon the name playstation is synonymous of gaming,Windows is synonymous of PC and monopoly which is what MS is really known for.
Gaming wise the PS brand is bigger than the xbox and only the most blind and biased MORON would even dare dispute that is the reason why the more expensive PS3 even on sony worst effort catch the xbox 360.
The PS3 vs xbox 360 doesn't debunk shit ass,the xbox 360 was up to $300 cheaper than the PS3 on a market were most consoles were release for $299 or less,they arrived 1 year late with a $600 and $500 vs $400 and $300 for an xbox the price was a huge point vs the PS3.
Maybe you should look 1 gen before the 360,to the PS2 one were the PS2 destroyed the xbox 156 million vs 25 million it wasn't even close i mean sony outsold MS and NIntendo combined by more than 100 million units.
Hahahahaa another proof that you know shit ass.
The Xbox debuted at $299 the same price the PS2 was what the fu** are you smoking,the 3DO wasn't even close price wise to the xbox or PS2,the xbox on November 2001 was $299 i know i owned one day 1,same price as the PS2,sony lower the price to $199 on May 2002 and MS did the same the same month as well $199.
If the 360 vs PS3 sales debunk my argument how come the PS4 is melting the xbox one sales wise.? According to your this equal that argument the xbox one should be winning like the 360..
For the Scorpio's CPU. Refer to VR Oculus Rift's CPU requirement i.e. Intel i5 Haswell has 128 bit DDR3 support.
Your argument 7850 beating PS4 = pure CPU's memory bandwidth consumption is flawed and it doesn't negate recent examples that yields R7-265 ~= PS4. There's a specific programming structure to yield R7-265 ~= PS4.
Scorpio is not a new programming environment.
With Doom 2016 and budget PC CPUs
DF: "Our i3 budget PC plays most titles at console settings, but not in Doom's case.It falls short of 1080p60, even at low settings with a GTX 750 Ti or R7 360 installed."
For Doom 2016, PS4 version used multi-threading Async compute and AMD's GPU intrinsic functions just like PC Doom Vulkan AMD code path.
Your 64 GB/s = CPU memory bandwidth consumption argument is flawed as game console ported to PC's dot product yields doesn't reach this level of memory bandwidth when linked to typical 60 hz monitor's refresh rates i.e. limited by PCI-E 16X bus version 3.0 (peak 16 GB/s one direction write), and XBO/PS4 console level geometry/simulation logics limits i.e. PC being gimped by consoles CPU AI logics on console ported games. Note why "2133 Mhz x 128 bit" (34 GB/s) yields top end PC results.
Scorpio's CPU memory consumption budget has to run on both XBO and PS4 you fool.
PS4's CPU-to-GPU fusion link is limited to dual 10 GB/s links which is slightly better than PCI-E 16X version 2.0's 8 GB read + 8 GB/s write. The games are being programmed with this common denominator and higher grade PC boxes are a few times faster than this limitation i.e. PCI-E 16X version 3.0's 16 GB read + 16 GB/s write.
Polaris's primitive triangle culling hardware moves this CPU workload to the GPU i.e. reduce CPU load.
Consoles has reduce need for GPU driver side JIT-re-compiler hence another factor for reduce CPU load.
I expect Scorpio to be better than year 2016 RX-480.
1. Part of hardware performance vs price factor.
2. Both consoles started from ground zero and both has similar launch title count.
http://au.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/Xbox_One_Launch_Titles
22 titles
http://au.ign.com/wikis/playstation-4/PlayStation_4_Launch_Titles
25 titles
3. Not much different to Steam or Google or Apple policies. The policies has been nuked before XBO's launch.
4. Part of hardware performance vs price factor.
5. Microsoft is the bigger brand world wide i.e. dominates a near monopoly Wintel market and the industry itself is far larger Sony's Play Station market.
In non-US and non-Japan markets, PC gaming dominates with Asian MMOs. Xbox 360's install base being similar to PS3 debunks your argument.
Bullshit, Xbox's price was higher than PS2 i.e. MS didn't learn the lesson from 3DO. Xbox 360's install base being similar to PS3 debunks your argument.
You will not get a i5 equivalent on Scorpio unless the console has separated components which will not happen,this is an APU so the stronger the GPU the smaller the room for a good CPU.
Oculus Rift demands mean shit Quantum Break demands a i5 on PC minimum yet it runs on a Jaguar on xbox one.
The end results is the same you can hold tied to CPU being the problem,fact is it has being beat by the 7850 just like the xbox one has being beat by the 7770,and since the xbox one will not have an i7 to get every single once of performance out of the GPU inside Scorpio i don´t see how they can get beat the RX480.
Scorpio will not have a i5 equivalent CPU,and it is the reason why it was keep silent like sony unless they go separate GPU and CPU there is no way they can pack a powerful 8 core CPU inside that APU.
Basically you are assuming it will have a i5 like CPU because oculus requires one,which is a joke since quantum break also requires one and runs on a jaguar on xbox one.
This is the same shit always some one is talking about something and you bring 100 irrelevant things.
1-Small Part.
2-Almost the same amount of games but not the same games,and the PS4 on its launch windows was getting more games faster.
3-Which didn't exist on the console market were console gamer are USE to trade their games,share them with friends to,that mentality about DRM is a PC one not a console one,which is why MS faced so much fire,they drop the policies but the DAMAGE WAS DONE.
4-No not wanting Kinect has nothing to do with power,they just didn't like the thing to fork $100 more for it.
5-Yes if we were talking about PC sure but gaming on consoles,MS kiss sony feet from here to the moon the name playstation is synonymous of gaming,Windows is synonymous of PC and monopoly which is what MS is really known for.
Gaming wise the PS brand is bigger than the xbox and only the most blind and biased MORON would even dare dispute that is the reason why the more expensive PS3 even on sony worst effort catch the xbox 360.
The PS3 vs xbox 360 doesn't debunk shit ass,the xbox 360 was up to $300 cheaper than the PS3 on a market were most consoles were release for $299 or less,they arrived 1 year late with a $600 and $500 vs $400 and $300 for an xbox the price was a huge point vs the PS3.
Maybe you should look 1 gen before the 360,to the PS2 one were the PS2 destroyed the xbox 156 million vs 25 million it wasn't even close i mean sony outsold MS and NIntendo combined by more than 100 million units.
Hahahahaa another proof that you know shit ass.
The Xbox debuted at $299 the same price the PS2 was what the fu** are you smoking,the 3DO wasn't even close price wise to the xbox or PS2,the xbox on November 2001 was $299 i know i owned one day 1,same price as the PS2,sony lower the price to $199 on May 2002 and MS did the same the same month as well $199.
If the 360 vs PS3 sales debunk my argument how come the PS4 is melting the xbox one sales wise.? According to your this equal that argument the xbox one should be winning like the 360..
Quantum Break PC's minimum requirement: Intel Core i5-4460 at 2.70GHz
i5-2500K at 3.3 Ghz yielding +60 fps. i3-2100's high result relative to i5 indicates narrow CPU multi-threading count.
For Xbox One, read http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-hands-on-with-quantum-break
Remedy targets a 30fps update for Quantum Break
PC's minimum CPU was aiming for higher goals over XBO build you stupid clown.
Try again.
---------------------
As for MS's "8 CPU cores" reveal for Scorpio.
NDAs are applicable for both AMD side and MS side i.e. AMD is not prepared to officially reveal any APUs with ZEN CPUs. Most ZEN APU information are NDA leaks.
The old 28 nm Jaguar core is only 3.2 mm^2 in size i.e. 8 core version would be around 25.6 mm^2.
16 or 14 nm FinFET 8 core Jaguar would be around 12 mm^2.
Relative Polaris 10's 232 mm^2 size, Scorpio's SoC 363 mm^2 size leads to a sizeable CPU solution i.e. it's NOT Jaguar based solution.
The remaining 130 mm^2 is enough for full blown 14 nm Intel i7 Skylake quad-core/8 threads with it's IGP and NB.
Estimated chip size for ZEN FX is around 122 mm^2 which includes 8 MB L3 cache, NB, SB and two 64 bit memory controllers. Add IGP and it's SoC.
Furthermore, AMD leaked road map has ZEN APU to be in mainstream segments in year 2017, but not in year 2016. MS will not add to AMD's road map leaks.
Your argument would change if Sony elects for NEO B's 5.5 TFLOPS GPU + upgraded/higher price CPU instead of NEO A's cheaper and smaller 4.2 TFLOPS GPU + cheaper Jaguar CPU solution. Sony has the option to delay until 2017 for cheaper price CPUs, but any NEO release during this year, it's a NEO A option.
Scorpio SoC is effectively the NEO B option instead of cheaper/smaller NEO A option. It's MS or Sony to eat the PCB cost i.e. 384 bit or 256 bit PCB selection.
For Sony, only one NEO build would be selected.
Both MS and Sony has same conclusion for AMD's 2016 semi-custom SoC solution i.e. half-gen jump.
Both MS and Sony has the same AMD road maps you fool.
Another NDA example, Sony wasn't allowed to reveal AMD TrueAudio during PS4's reveal until R9-290X's official reveal while AMD TrueAudio was already included in Bonaire GCN and Xbox One which is also hidden until R9-290X's official reveal. AMD has it's own interest i.e. it's only AMD is allowed to reveal ZEN CPUs and that's not Sony nor MS.
7770 beating XBO is mostly due to AMD's budget CPU solution that requires wider multi-threading and specific ESRAM handling programming structures.
ID Software already told the world on how they maximize performance for Doom 2016 i.e. Async compute, multi-threading for rendering and hit-the-metal AMD GCN intrinsic functions.
---------------------
1. Significant part. PS4 with Wii U GPU would yield a negative result.
2. With XBO's game release rate, you haven't factored in the learning curve for XBO's ESRAM vs easy to program GDDR5 memory models. Scorpio switched to PS4's fast and high storage GDDR5 memory model.
3. Not a major issue as Google, Apple and Steam DRM shows.
4. Part of hardware performance vs price ratio relative to the competition. PS4 with Wii U GPU would yield a negative result.
From my personal view, I prefer NEO B and Scorpio for improved mass production and overall cost reduction (for AMD). I do not prefer NEO A option.
@tormentos said:
Gaming wise the PS brand is bigger than the xbox and only the most blind and biased MORON would even dare dispute that is the reason why the more expensive PS3 even on sony worst effort catch the xbox 360.
The PS3 vs xbox 360 doesn't debunk shit ass,the xbox 360 was up to $300 cheaper than the PS3 on a market were most consoles were release for $299 or less,they arrived 1 year late with a $600 and $500 vs $400 and $300 for an xbox the price was a huge point vs the PS3.
Maybe you should look 1 gen before the 360,to the PS2 one were the PS2 destroyed the xbox 156 million vs 25 million it wasn't even close i mean sony outsold MS and NIntendo combined by more than 100 million units.
Hahahahaa another proof that you know shit ass.
The Xbox debuted at $299 the same price the PS2 was what the fu** are you smoking,the 3DO wasn't even close price wise to the xbox or PS2,the xbox on November 2001 was $299 i know i owned one day 1,same price as the PS2,sony lower the price to $199 on May 2002 and MS did the same the same month as well $199.
If the 360 vs PS3 sales debunk my argument how come the PS4 is melting the xbox one sales wise.? According to your this equal that argument the xbox one should be winning like the 360..
LOL, Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3_launch#Release_data_and_pricing
USA's PS3 launch price ranges from $399 to $599.
For Xbox 360 and year 2007
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360
During 2006 Q4,
Xbox 360 ranges from $299 to $399
PS3 ranges from $399 to $599
You taken extreme price points to create your flawed argument.
The price difference for oranges ($299) to oranges ($399) is $100.
Your "xbox 360 was up to $300 cheaper than the PS3" is a load of bullshit.
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