Save System Wars in 2008

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Tsug_Ze_Wind

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#251 Tsug_Ze_Wind
Member since 2006 • 9511 Posts
[QUOTE="astiop"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

We need less rules, less strictness, and more anarchy. We need to literally be the garbage dump of Gamespot. Then, the community will rule, and so the community will thrive.

Jandurin

YES! You are more renowned here than I am, I hope people listen to you at least... I try saying the same thing in almost every subrosian thread but nada. I have nothing against you sub, but I really think that you don't get the point of this place or don't remember when theese forums were at their best.

Anarchy would suck just as much as the strictest rule enforcing. There needs to be a middle ground.

The middle ground is what we have right now, and we all want it to change. If we're going to one extreme, it should be anarchy.

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blue_hazy_basic

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#252 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="astiop"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

We need less rules, less strictness, and more anarchy. We need to literally be the garbage dump of Gamespot. Then, the community will rule, and so the community will thrive.

Tsug_Ze_Wind

YES! You are more renowned here than I am, I hope people listen to you at least... I try saying the same thing in almost every subrosian thread but nada. I have nothing against you sub, but I really think that you don't get the point of this place or don't remember when theese forums were at their best.

Anarchy would suck just as much as the strictest rule enforcing. There needs to be a middle ground.

The middle ground is what we have right now, and we all want it to change. If we're going to one extreme, it should be anarchy.

No I agree with Jan, you need rules, its just there are too many and too strictly imposed. You might not like society as you live in today if you enjoyed pot but you wouldn't want utter lawlessness. (please note mods I'm not endorsing any illegal activity, merely using it as an example :P)
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#253 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts

The middle ground is what we have right now, and we all want it to change. If we're going to one extreme, it should be anarchy.Tsug_Ze_Wind
This is *NOT* middle ground.

Stupid rules are being over-enforced to a ridiculous degree.

We are nearing the authoritarian extreme right now. Closer now than ever (since I started posting here).

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astiop

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#254 astiop
Member since 2005 • 3582 Posts
[QUOTE="astiop"][QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

We need less rules, less strictness, and more anarchy. We need to literally be the garbage dump of Gamespot. Then, the community will rule, and so the community will thrive.

Jandurin

YES! You are more renowned here than I am, I hope people listen to you at least... I try saying the same thing in almost every subrosian thread but nada. I have nothing against you sub, but I really think that you don't get the point of this place or don't remember when theese forums were at their best.

Anarchy would suck just as much as the strictest rule enforcing. There needs to be a middle ground.

Not complete anarchy... ofcorse that would suck. But not this banfest either. Some people keep complaining about the downhill of sw yet they don't see that it began when the mods started getting stricter. I don't want to repeat myself, I tried to explain how sw was better without the strictness a few posts back. We won't see that sorta thing again if sw remains at it's current state.

Try to put yourself in the trolls position. Why even bother making a thread in the level of ginger or yo_foo if you end up getting baned in the first place? Instead make a new accoun, troll mindlessly, get banned, repeat. And don't ask me why I would want trolls in sw, again, I tried to explain that a few posts back.

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Hoffgod

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#255 Hoffgod
Member since 2006 • 12229 Posts

The middle ground is what we have right now, and we all want it to change. If we're going to one extreme, it should be anarchy.

Tsug_Ze_Wind
I don't know about full anarchy, but I think things are too regulated right now, and that's my biggest concern about the changes Subrosian recommends: it's just more restrictions and regulations. For me, System Wars isn't meant to be a serious, heavy-handed center of debate and discussion on the system war. Instead, its supposed to be a gathering of people to discuss and have fun with a more argumentative slant than GGD. After all, that's why SW was created, right? But over time, things have changed. Restrictions on what people can say and what they can do, like the elimination of OT conversation on SW, something which I consider to be the start of the downfall of SW. For SW to be rejuvinated, it needs to go back to its roots. It needs to be more enjoyable, more fun. Doing stuff like getting rid of the comics, SW monthly, or the SW bets moves in the wrong direction. It makes SW less fun, less enjoyable, less rewarding. That's not the direction we should move in. Overall, Sub, I appreciate what you're trying to do and I think your ends are honorable, but your means are the opposite of what's needed.
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Tsug_Ze_Wind

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#256 Tsug_Ze_Wind
Member since 2006 • 9511 Posts

No I agree with Jan, you need rules, its just there are too many and too strictly imposed. You might not like society as you live in today if you enjoyed pot but you wouldn't want utter lawlessness. (please note mods I'm not endorsing any illegal activity, merely using it as an example :P)blue_hazy_basic

Er...that's a bit different. If our society had no rules, our lives would be in danger. (understatement to make point)

If SW had absolutely no rules, the worst that would happen is that there'd be more porn-not-suicides. And anyway, I'm not calling for absolutely no rules.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#257 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
Overall, Sub, I appreciate what you're trying to do and I think your ends are honorable, but your means are the opposite of what's needed.Hoffgod
For me, it seems that some of sub's suggestions are spot on, but the overall goal, or intent, is incorrect.
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Tsug_Ze_Wind

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#258 Tsug_Ze_Wind
Member since 2006 • 9511 Posts

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]The middle ground is what we have right now, and we all want it to change. If we're going to one extreme, it should be anarchy.Jandurin

This is *NOT* middle ground.

Stupid rules are being over-enforced to a ridiculous degree.

We are nearing the authoritarian extreme right now. Closer now than ever (since I started posting here).

True, but what Sub is proposing will just bring it closer to that extreme.

[QUOTE="Tsug_Ze_Wind"]

The middle ground is what we have right now, and we all want it to change. If we're going to one extreme, it should be anarchy.

Hoffgod

I don't know about full anarchy, but I think things are too regulated right now, and that's my biggest concern about the changes Subrosian recommends: it's just more restrictions and regulations. For me, System Wars isn't meant to be a serious, heavy-handed center of debate and discussion on the system war. Instead, its supposed to be a gathering of people to discuss and have fun with a more argumentative slant than GGD. After all, that's why SW was created, right? But over time, things have changed. Restrictions on what people can say and what they can do, like the elimination of OT conversation on SW, something which I consider to be the start of the downfall of SW. For SW to be rejuvinated, it needs to go back to its roots. It needs to be more enjoyable, more fun. Doing stuff like getting rid of the comics, SW monthly, or the SW bets moves in the wrong direction. It makes SW less fun, less enjoyable, less rewarding. That's not the direction we should move in. Overall, Sub, I appreciate what you're trying to do and I think your ends are honorable, but your means are the opposite of what's needed.

I agree. We need the game aspect of SW, the more off-topic aspect of SW, and the argumentative aspect. Anything else is putting this unique community into a little box.

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JPOBS

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#259 JPOBS
Member since 2007 • 9675 Posts

I have seen both sides of the anarchy vs rules debate as i post both here and sw.com ket me tell you:

Anarchy is not the way to go. SW.com is fun, but it's also repetitive because everything is "T_HBO" (that means the cows/lemmins/sheep/hermits have been owned. I forogt, we dont even use T_HBO anymore lol) and every single game is the suck in that forum. Its fun, but its also EXTREMELY negative and hate filled.

As for rules, they make a place boring. Look no further than GGD for proof.

SW right now IS a middle ground and its pretty good. BTW, INTERNET IS NOT SERIOUS BUSINESS. If you want a perfect world, go cure aids or feed children in africa or something. THAT is serious business. internet = fun.

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blue_hazy_basic

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#260 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts

[QUOTE="blue_hazy_basic"] No I agree with Jan, you need rules, its just there are too many and too strictly imposed. You might not like society as you live in today if you enjoyed pot but you wouldn't want utter lawlessness. (please note mods I'm not endorsing any illegal activity, merely using it as an example :P)Tsug_Ze_Wind

Er...that's a bit different. If our society had no rules, our lives would be in danger. (understatement to make point)

If SW had absolutely no rules, the worst that would happen is that there'd be more porn-not-suicides. And anyway, I'm not calling for absolutely no rules.

haha yea I know I was just using an extreme to emphasise my point. Anarchy is no rules. I personally don;t find nudity and swearing a bad thing but many people do find it offensive, nor do I want to see threads degenerate into flame fests. However, I agree that SW is overally policed but it is vital to have some kind of order.

If you saw my previous posts its why I called for MORE mods, but from within the SW community. This would allow the board to be policed in the spirit of SW rather than beingrigourously enforced from people not used to SW.

Mods need to be a respected active part of the community not its enemy

EDIT I really think we are not that far apart in our views (if you see my post about 4 or 5 above yours on this page, I had a slighly more expansive one which said similar things earlier in the thread)

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Hoffgod

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#261 Hoffgod
Member since 2006 • 12229 Posts
[QUOTE="Hoffgod"]Overall, Sub, I appreciate what you're trying to do and I think your ends are honorable, but your means are the opposite of what's needed.Jandurin
For me, it seems that some of sub's suggestions are spot on, but the overall goal, or intent, is incorrect.

Well, I view his ends as making SW a better place, but his means are to further restrict SW in both practice and definition. That's where I disagree. So it seems kinda like we're saying the same thing, just in different ways. Besides, for me, it seems that you need to play more Mass Effect.
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Nike_Air

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#262 Nike_Air
Member since 2006 • 19737 Posts
[QUOTE="AdobeArtist"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

If anything, by housing a full-out System War, GameSpot makes itself (and its boards) a target for trolling.

subrosian

That gave me an idea. Maybe the name of the board should be changed to something like "gaming debate". The former which implies that different platforms are enemies, the latter which implies that disagreement doesn't necessarily mean being enemies, and therefore the need for harsh conflict.

That's a rather spot-on idea.

Yeah , it is a good idea ............ but what would motivate any kind of change from Gamespot ? Gamespot's System Wars has great notoriety and it is the board with the most participation (and gets them web hits and sign ups). Gamespot (whether they admit it or not)are inherently pro fanboy as well with theirridiculous polls that troll against systems and some of the system wars fueled articles that they post.

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blue_hazy_basic

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#263 blue_hazy_basic  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 30854 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="Hoffgod"]Overall, Sub, I appreciate what you're trying to do and I think your ends are honorable, but your means are the opposite of what's needed.Hoffgod
For me, it seems that some of sub's suggestions are spot on, but the overall goal, or intent, is incorrect.

Well, I view his ends as making SW a better place, but his means are to further restrict SW in both practice and definition. That's where I disagree. So it seems kinda like we're saying the same thing, just in different ways. Besides, for me, it seems that you need to play more Mass Effect.

Mass Effect rules. I've had to stop plaing it to play some GHIII, AC, Halo and most importantly MTW Kingdoms. I getting Football Manager 08 for xmas sent overfrom the UK .... my wife is going to hate me lol
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#264 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts

Besides, for me, it seems that you need to play more Mass Effect.Hoffgod
:lol:

Too true.

I've been stuck on GH2 and Fallout2.

Freya on Expert... is breaking my mind. Fallout 2 is consistently fun though.

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JPOBS

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#265 JPOBS
Member since 2007 • 9675 Posts

[QUOTE="Hoffgod"]Besides, for me, it seems that you need to play more Mass Effect.Jandurin

:lol:

Too true.

I've been stuck on GH2 and Fallout2.

Freya on Expert... is breaking my mind. Fallout 2 is consistently fun though.

you have 40 points in CoD4? lmfao!

I have 600 or so, working on that damn veteran mode :x
where'd you get the tags like that?

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Dreams-Visions

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#266 Dreams-Visions
Member since 2006 • 26578 Posts

sub, I like most of your ideas, but at heart it's almost like you want System Wars to become something like GUFU, celebrating accomplishmentsand the such. Sorry, but this is system WARS. not System LOVEFEST. It's supposed to be critical. There are supposed to be haters...and their job is to hate. It's supposed to be somewhat shallow (unless someone actually has a good argument). There is supposed to be much disagreement, hypocrisy, bias and envy. It couldn't call itself "Wars" without that.

I agree SW has felt collectively dumber because many of us simply don't care to post much anymore. Many of the other good posters have already moved on. But changing the nature of the forum won't fix a damn thing. That really will kill system wars.

Screw "encouragement of positive outlook". Wrong forum for that.

Screw "removal of rewards" mechanism. Won't change a thing. Only cause more confusion on hype.

Yes to minimum posting level. That would be helpful. Maybe the only thing on your list that really would be helpful.

But if you can't like System Wars for what it fundamentally is (arguing about all things gaming) perhaps the simple reality is that you (we) have outgrown System Wars altogether.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#267 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
you have 40 points in CoD4? lmfao!

I have 600 or so, working on that damn veteran mode :x
where'd you get the tags like that?

JPOBS

Yeah, CoD4 is pretty boring imo. Realistic shooters are clearly not my thing.

Anyway:

http://www.mygamercard.net/

You just tell it what size you want, and it gives you code that you just put image tags around in your sig.

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JPOBS

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#268 JPOBS
Member since 2007 • 9675 Posts
[QUOTE="JPOBS"]you have 40 points in CoD4? lmfao!

I have 600 or so, working on that damn veteran mode :x
where'd you get the tags like that?

Jandurin

Yeah, CoD4 is pretty boring imo. Realistic shooters are clearly not my thing.

Anyway:

http://www.mygamercard.net/

You just tell it what size you want, and it gives you code that you just put image tags around in your sig.

Beastly.
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The_AI

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#269 The_AI
Member since 2006 • 4791 Posts

Briefing

If you're a longtime GameSpot member, you've probably noticed the sharp decline in posting quality in System Wars over the past six months. I may not have been on as long as some people, but yes, I've noticed a decline.However, it's nothing new. While the staleness and repetition are nothing new, the quality has hit an all time low.It has, but it's not as bad as you think. There are enough intelligent posters in here to balance out the idiots.Thanks in part to the Gerstmann incident, and in part simply to burnout, GameSpot's best posters are losing their reason, will, and need to post here, and that's just sad. Yes, they have, if Jechtshot is any indication. :(

I've proposed a solution here - six steps towards making System Wars brighter in 2008, and perhaps giving it a return to more intelligent, thoughtful, serious discussion.Wait, what? This is called System Wars, not System Debate Forum. If you believe in this goal, I ask you to support it wholly and vocally. No thanks.

-
Unfortunately for this to be achieved, several people who have gained a position of authority will have to step down. So you can geta position? This is a hard thing to ask of anyone, especially for a normal poster who feels their "community effort" is a positive influence on GameSpot. It is a hard thing to ask, and there's no reason why you should ask that of anything!

-
I am convinced that without these changes, System Wars will continue to stagnate, and we will watch a groundhog day of mediocre posting, and the continued departure of longtime intelligent posters from this forum - a precious resource already in short supply. I'm convinced that with these changes, the life blood of System Wars will bleed out even faster.




Minimum Poster Level
NO! Anyone should be able to post in System Wars, no matter how stupid. This gives me the impression that you are elitist.
A significant percentage of spam, trolling, and flaming comes from low-level posters, either because they are alt-accounts for troublemakers, or inexperienced users who do not see a higher purpose in System Wars. Not every low level member doesn't know what they're talking about, and many higher level members don't know what they're talking about.

I propose a minimum level of 10, and a minimum post count of 100 to post in System Wars. This level is not hard to achieve, but it will force new accounts to prove they can contribute meaningfully to GameSpot before participating in System Wars. Yeah,and what would that solve?

An added perk is this will reduce the moderation load in SW - ban-dodgers will have to spend more time with an account before they are able to disrupt the SW board. That's a good point about ban-dodgers, but the moderation load doesn't depend on acount level.


Change of Leadership


CaseyWegner has been an important supporter of System Wars both on the board and behind the scenes for years, however it is not secret he's been burned out for quite some time, and, let's face it - jaded by his experiences. I agree with this, but...

It's high time we introduce a newer moderator to the position of "master mod of System Wars" - perhaps CakeOrrDeath, or newly elected moderators. I don't think Casey will agree to this... and there you go again with putting yourself in a higher position than you're really at!

Admin Involvement

A big part of keeping other boards on GS healthy has been the work of admins in making the site, TOU, and enhancement transparent. As such, it'd be nice to see an admin turn a loving hand toward system wars.

Many SW posters don't venture further into GS, and without doing so may never discover that there's more go GS. Having an admin volunteer a bit of their time on this board would create more of a sense of community and solidarity with GS - something system wars is sorely lacking. Yeah, we should have some more admins on SW.


Encourage a Community of Discussion

Moderation should be used harshly on spam, trolling, flaming, grouping, and anything that comes close to the spirit of doing this, even if within the letter of the law, and relax on other areas. In essence the ideal System Wars is one in which "Lemming Pwned, Forza 3 Flops" is locked immediately. Giving the mods too much power is just asking for tyranny. Heck, with Casey it's been bordering on that. The ideal System Wars is not your idea of it. Threads about the different fanboy groups getting owned shouldn't be locked unless there are 200 billion of them, in which it would be spamming.

Also in this vein, serious, contemplative posting should be encouraged - this means anything (and anyone) who treats System Wars as a game should be removed. Joke comic strips, bets threads, "flop / score-hype" threads and the like should all be unstickied and locked for good. What?!!! No! Subrosian, System Wars WAS NEVER SERIOUS, IS NOT SERIOUS, AND WILL NEVER BE SERIOUS. You know what? Yeah, System Wars is a meta-game. And you know what? I'm a supporter of that meta-game. It adds unique-ness to System Wars. If your reforms are set in action, that unique-ness will give way to something boring and stagnant that I will no longer visit.


Removal of Reward Mechanisms

Removing Bets, Hype, and Flop stickies would remove a large part of the "game" reward mechanism, but it means sacrificing other threads too - "best poster", "best thread", et cetera are all a breeding ground for troll-worship, encouraging porn-suicides, fakeboys, and intentionally stupid posting.

Enough is enough, and these types of threads need to be shown the door. If intelligence is to win out in the end we have to remove reward mechanisms for thoughtless, stupid behavior. This would kill System Wars with a dagger through the heart. Bets, hype, and flop threads are what makes System Wars fun. It's a game; you win some, you lose some. The reward mechanisms aren't the evil here, stupidity is. I do agree that the Best Poster threads are stupid, though.


Acceptance of Positive Outlook

System Wars currently takes a negative outlook - that is - a war of mutually assured destruction, in which we debate not on strengths but on weaknesses - not on good but on bad. System Wars encourages the "I hate", "I won't", and "this sucks" posting.

Rarely, if ever, does System Wars celebrate a greatness collectively, or embrace titles despite them being a positive for the "other guy", or push away and compliment competition when a title seems like a victory for "your guy".

Without a positive outlook, System Wars becomes needlessly bleak - the outlook of a war-torn, horrific future, in which each platform struggles to survive benefits no one.
Wow. It's called System Wars for a reason.
-

Closing

Please do your part to support these changes in 2008 for System Wars, I strongly believe they are needed to restore the System Wars forum to something that stands up to the quality we expect on a site of GameSpot's calibre. No way. Worse still the attitudes, and posting sty-le we see as a problem in System Wars are being extended into news stories and onto other boards.

Without a real change, System Wars may continue down its path towards schizophrenia and self-destruction, a future for which I fear it may already be fated.

subrosian

You know what, Subrosian? You're treating this as a life or death situation. It's an online gaming forum in which you argue for your respective gaming console. You treat the metagame as something evil and terrible, while some would argue that it is the best part of System Wars. Your reforms would basically change SW from an anarchy into a Fascist dictatorship. I can't see anyone supporting this, personally.

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PullTheTricker

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#270 PullTheTricker
Member since 2006 • 4749 Posts

I'm not here to make reputation... and neither will I ever take SW seriously. You want to debate with the more intellectuals? Go to a Politics forum or whatever. SW will remain chaotic just as it been 5 years ago.

I didn't read what you wrote all there... but congratulations for wasting your time. Your thread will have no influence whatsoever on System Wars.

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The_AI

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#271 The_AI
Member since 2006 • 4791 Posts

I'm not here to make reputation... and neither will I ever take SW seriously. You want to debate with the more intellectuals? Go to a Politics forum or whatever. SW will remain chaotic just as it been 5 years ago.

I didn't read what you wrote all there... but congratulations for wasting your time. Your thread will have no influence whatsoever on System Wars.

PullTheTricker

I agree. I have never and will never take System Wars seriously.

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Hitamaru-homia

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#272 Hitamaru-homia
Member since 2006 • 2046 Posts
... its gone from Over population of cows to lemmings taken the thrown. To the Sheep population slowly increasing by day. This is apocolypco D:!
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subrosian

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#273 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

The problem seems to be people believe things that are *against the TOU* should actually be a part of System Wars. Trolling, spam, thread hijacking - none of these things are allowed *anywhere* on GS, yes, even here - and yet they occur (and are often overlooked) every day. If that becomes the *prime interesting factor* in posters being on GameSpot, well, the admins have made this clear before - these members aren't needed or welcome on GameSpot.

-

Grim reality - System Wars has been up for deletion before by the admins - CaseyWegner helped prevent that deletion (to a certain degree) by taking on a large load of moderator responsibliity - in essence keeping it off of their plates. However, it's no secret which board generates the most moderations, the most trouble for the site, and the most *generally concerning content* (from a liability perspective).

-

CaseyWegner won't be here forever, if System Wars continues in its current direction, it will find itself eventually facing reform the hard way. Which would you rather have - a reform lead by, and directed by, the best posters in System Wars, or a reform dictated by the failure of the containment and the need for admins to step in without consulting us?

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subrosian

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#274 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts
[QUOTE="subrosian"][QUOTE="AdobeArtist"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

If anything, by housing a full-out System War, GameSpot makes itself (and its boards) a target for trolling.

Nike_Air

That gave me an idea. Maybe the name of the board should be changed to something like "gaming debate". The former which implies that different platforms are enemies, the latter which implies that disagreement doesn't necessarily mean being enemies, and therefore the need for harsh conflict.

That's a rather spot-on idea.

Yeah , it is a good idea ............ but what would motivate any kind of change from Gamespot ? Gamespot's System Wars has great notoriety and it is the board with the most participation (and gets them web hits and sign ups). Gamespot (whether they admit it or not)are inherently pro fanboy as well with theirridiculous polls that troll against systems and some of the system wars fueled articles that they post.

Then GameSpot should view it as a perfect opportunity to put journalistic integrity before profit margins, as they claim they do. Is the integrity of their forum (and their greater impact on gaming as a whole, by encouraging positive attitudes, and discouraging blind fanboyism) as a reflection of their site more important than a few extra ad hits every month?

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subrosian

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#275 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

Reading through, I'm frankly amazed at how few people are willing to make the small individual sacrifice that would be required in order to generated a massive collective yield. Regrettably there are people on this site, even now, who while their posting is *already* unwelcome under the TOU, would be made to lose what little attention they gain from their wrongdoings.

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Guitartod

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#276 Guitartod
Member since 2007 • 830 Posts

i think that system wars could do better without these things

1.all the na,me calling. lemmings,hermits,sheep,cows,manticores ect

2. more meaningful discussions and not degrading another user cause they dont know somthing you do.... no one likes to be called a noob

thats all i can think of..... right now)420 ;)

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HAZE-Unit

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#277 HAZE-Unit
Member since 2007 • 10564 Posts

sub, I like most of your ideas, but at heart it's almost like you want System Wars to become something like GUFU, celebrating accomplishmentsand the such. Sorry, but this is system WARS. not System LOVEFEST. It's supposed to be critical. There are supposed to be haters...and their job is to hate. It's supposed to be somewhat shallow (unless someone actually has a good argument). There is supposed to be much disagreement, hypocrisy, bias and envy. It couldn't call itself "Wars" without that.

I agree SW has felt collectively dumber because many of us simply don't care to post much anymore. Many of the other good posters have already moved on. But changing the nature of the forum won't fix a damn thing. That really will kill system wars.

Screw "encouragement of positive outlook". Wrong forum for that.

Screw "removal of rewards" mechanism. Won't change a thing. Only cause more confusion on hype.

Yes to minimum posting level. That would be helpful. Maybe the only thing on your list that really would be helpful.

But if you can't like System Wars for what it fundamentally is (arguing about all things gaming) perhaps the simple reality is that you (we) have outgrown System Wars altogether.

Dreams-Visions

completely agree, this is System war, not a rehab centre, The media, the companies and developers hear us more than any one because we are strict to the point, to the downer of any console, any game, our criticism make them do their best, look at Sony, they are hearing us and working on the in-game XMB, if we don't do it the harsh way, nobody would listen to us, gamers and fans of consoles I mean, the gaming industry comes to most system debates forums to see what they did wrong.

Maybe these people who troll, are saying the harsh truth about something wrong, is that bad?

And sub, I hope you get off your high horses, and if you can't handle SW, there is alot of other places in GS to discuss your views on gaming, you had my respect, but lately, you are becoming so arrogant, there is alot of people who are older users than you and me here in GS and they didn't act like this.

As for the level posting thing, they wouldn't mind the waiting for trolling to level 10 for example, you didn't solve anything.

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AdobeArtist

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#278 AdobeArtist  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 25184 Posts
[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

sub, I like most of your ideas, but at heart it's almost like you want System Wars to become something like GUFU, celebrating accomplishmentsand the such. Sorry, but this is system WARS. not System LOVEFEST. It's supposed to be critical. There are supposed to be haters...and their job is to hate. It's supposed to be somewhat shallow (unless someone actually has a good argument). There is supposed to be much disagreement, hypocrisy, bias and envy. It couldn't call itself "Wars" without that.

I agree SW has felt collectively dumber because many of us simply don't care to post much anymore. Many of the other good posters have already moved on. But changing the nature of the forum won't fix a damn thing. That really will kill system wars.

Screw "encouragement of positive outlook". Wrong forum for that.

Screw "removal of rewards" mechanism. Won't change a thing. Only cause more confusion on hype.

Yes to minimum posting level. That would be helpful. Maybe the only thing on your list that really would be helpful.

But if you can't like System Wars for what it fundamentally is (arguing about all things gaming) perhaps the simple reality is that you (we) have outgrown System Wars altogether.

HAZE-Unit

completely agree, this is System war, not a rehab centre, The media, the companies and developers hear us more than any one because we are strict to the point, to the downer of any console, any game, our criticism make them do their best, look at Sony, they are hearing us and working on the in-game XMB, if we don't do it the harsh way, nobody would listen to us, gamers and fans of consoles I mean, the gaming industry comes to most system debates forums to see what they did wrong.

Maybe these people who troll, are saying the harsh truth about something wrong, is that bad?

And sub, I hope you get off your high horses, and if you can't handle SW, there is alot of other places in GS to discuss your views on gaming, you had my respect, but lately, you are becoming so arrogant, there is alot of people who are older users than you and me here in GS and they didn't act like this.

As for the level posting thing, they wouldn't mind the waiting for trolling to level 10 for example, you didn't solve anything.

Dreams: Yes this forum is supposed to be about argument. But nowhere in the forum name does it say that it's supposed to be about flaming and hating. Argument can (and should be) about intelligent debate, makiing concise arguments with valid points. And statements about platforms and games just "sucking" with nothing more to it than that, just doesn't count to that end. There is NO recourse for trolling and insulting here just because it's called System Wars. Again, it's the diffference between school yard name calling and REAL debate.

And as Subrosian pointed out, mods won't tolerate flaming and trolling here, this being System Wars doesn't make it exempt from the TOU. Which is why I suggested renaming this forum to "Gaming Debate", as that sends a message of debating without trolling and other cheap tactics.

-

Haze Unit: I'm not going to speak on whether or not the industry listens in on us to see where the criticism in their products lie, that they need to work on. In fact you are right that we SHOULD be expressing our valid opinions on games and systems. But THAT is NOT what this thread is addressing. It's about the behavior here, in how posters address other posters and how they "criticize" the companies.

If the industry does in fact have an ear on us (and I'm not subscribing to that idea) are they really learning anything when they read "Lemmings have bad taste in games" "We rule because we have sales" "Cows are hypocites" and the non-stop flop flop flop... so many games are flops. Like I said above, we should encourage valid criticizm, and there's a clear difference between that and sensless bashing.

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-Sniper99-

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#279 -Sniper99-
Member since 2004 • 8983 Posts
System Wars has been terrible the past two years. I remeber the good ol' days when you were actually allowed to say things here. The days of Ownage_God. Good times.....
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JPOBS

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#280 JPOBS
Member since 2007 • 9675 Posts

The problem seems to be people believe things that are *against the TOU* should actually be a part of System Wars. Trolling, spam, thread hijacking - none of these things are allowed *anywhere* on GS, yes, even here - and yet they occur (and are often overlooked) every day. If that becomes the *prime interesting factor* in posters being on GameSpot, well, the admins have made this clear before - these members aren't needed or welcome on GameSpot.

-

Grim reality - System Wars has been up for deletion before by the admins - CaseyWegner helped prevent that deletion (to a certain degree) by taking on a large load of moderator responsibliity - in essence keeping it off of their plates. However, it's no secret which board generates the most moderations, the most trouble for the site, and the most *generally concerning content* (from a liability perspective).

-

CaseyWegner won't be here forever, if System Wars continues in its current direction, it will find itself eventually facing reform the hard way. Which would you rather have - a reform lead by, and directed by, the best posters in System Wars, or a reform dictated by the failure of the containment and the need for admins to step in without consulting us?

subrosian

No, actually, the real problem is that you are trying to make systemwars into seriouswars.

Its not going to happen.

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TheTerribleFish

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#281 TheTerribleFish
Member since 2005 • 1793 Posts
System Wars has always had a negative reputation, and I believe it always will have. Anyways, I don't really care about the changes, but do as you please. If it may help for something, go for it!
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Dreams-Visions

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#282 Dreams-Visions
Member since 2006 • 26578 Posts
[QUOTE="subrosian"]

The problem seems to be people believe things that are *against the TOU* should actually be a part of System Wars. Trolling, spam, thread hijacking - none of these things are allowed *anywhere* on GS, yes, even here - and yet they occur (and are often overlooked) every day. If that becomes the *prime interesting factor* in posters being on GameSpot, well, the admins have made this clear before - these members aren't needed or welcome on GameSpot.

-

Grim reality - System Wars has been up for deletion before by the admins - CaseyWegner helped prevent that deletion (to a certain degree) by taking on a large load of moderator responsibliity - in essence keeping it off of their plates. However, it's no secret which board generates the most moderations, the most trouble for the site, and the most *generally concerning content* (from a liability perspective).

-

CaseyWegner won't be here forever, if System Wars continues in its current direction, it will find itself eventually facing reform the hard way. Which would you rather have - a reform lead by, and directed by, the best posters in System Wars, or a reform dictated by the failure of the containment and the need for admins to step in without consulting us?

JPOBS

No, actually, the real problem is that you are trying to make systemwars into seriouswars.

Its not going to happen.

Agreed.

Like I said, I think many of us are simply outgrowing System Wars. These are the examples.

Maybe System Wars hasn't really gotten dumber at all....maybe we all just got smarter while the forum's IQ stayed the same.

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HAZE-Unit

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#284 HAZE-Unit
Member since 2007 • 10564 Posts
[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"][QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]

sub, I like most of your ideas, but at heart it's almost like you want System Wars to become something like GUFU, celebrating accomplishmentsand the such. Sorry, but this is system WARS. not System LOVEFEST. It's supposed to be critical. There are supposed to be haters...and their job is to hate. It's supposed to be somewhat shallow (unless someone actually has a good argument). There is supposed to be much disagreement, hypocrisy, bias and envy. It couldn't call itself "Wars" without that.

I agree SW has felt collectively dumber because many of us simply don't care to post much anymore. Many of the other good posters have already moved on. But changing the nature of the forum won't fix a damn thing. That really will kill system wars.

Screw "encouragement of positive outlook". Wrong forum for that.

Screw "removal of rewards" mechanism. Won't change a thing. Only cause more confusion on hype.

Yes to minimum posting level. That would be helpful. Maybe the only thing on your list that really would be helpful.

But if you can't like System Wars for what it fundamentally is (arguing about all things gaming) perhaps the simple reality is that you (we) have outgrown System Wars altogether.

AdobeArtist

completely agree, this is System war, not a rehab centre, The media, the companies and developers hear us more than any one because we are strict to the point, to the downer of any console, any game, our criticism make them do their best, look at Sony, they are hearing us and working on the in-game XMB, if we don't do it the harsh way, nobody would listen to us, gamers and fans of consoles I mean, the gaming industry comes to most system debates forums to see what they did wrong.

Maybe these people who troll, are saying the harsh truth about something wrong, is that bad?

And sub, I hope you get off your high horses, and if you can't handle SW, there is alot of other places in GS to discuss your views on gaming, you had my respect, but lately, you are becoming so arrogant, there is alot of people who are older users than you and me here in GS and they didn't act like this.

As for the level posting thing, they wouldn't mind the waiting for trolling to level 10 for example, you didn't solve anything.

Haze Unit: I'm not going to speak on whether or not the industry listens in on us to see where the criticism in their products lie, that they need to work on. In fact you are right that we SHOULD be expressing our valid opinions on games and systems. But THAT is NOT what this thread is addressing. It's about the behavior here, in how posters address other posters and how they "criticize" the companies.

If the industry does in fact have an ear on us (and I'm not subscribing to that idea) are they really learning anything when they read "Lemmings have bad taste in games" "We rule because we have sales" "Cows are hypocites" and the non-stop flop flop flop... so many games are flops. Like I said above, we should encourage valid criticizm, and there's a clear difference between that and sensless bashing.

Maybe you are right in this, but it doesn't mean it is always has the same meaning inside, for instance, maybe the person has a rant about his group, or some PR said something wrong and he want to disprove it, or he is actually countering another topic...etc.

Even if it is flaming/trolling, does it mean, we couldn't be creative to counter it with an intelligent topic, if it is gone serious to some people?

If someone feel offended by anyone, he has the right to backfire at this person in his way.

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The_AI

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#285 The_AI
Member since 2006 • 4791 Posts

The problem seems to be people believe things that are *against the TOU* should actually be a part of System Wars. Trolling, spam, thread hijacking - none of these things are allowed *anywhere* on GS, yes, even here - and yet they occur (and are often overlooked) every day. If that becomes the *prime interesting factor* in posters being on GameSpot, well, the admins have made this clear before - these members aren't needed or welcome on GameSpot.

-

Grim reality - System Wars has been up for deletion before by the admins - CaseyWegner helped prevent that deletion (to a certain degree) by taking on a large load of moderator responsibliity - in essence keeping it off of their plates. However, it's no secret which board generates the most moderations, the most trouble for the site, and the most *generally concerning content* (from a liability perspective).

-

CaseyWegner won't be here forever, if System Wars continues in its current direction, it will find itself eventually facing reform the hard way. Which would you rather have - a reform lead by, and directed by, the best posters in System Wars, or a reform dictated by the failure of the containment and the need for admins to step in without consulting us?

subrosian

Wow, that's modest of you.

Seriously, Subrosian, I think that these 'reforms', as you put it,will hurt System Wars. The major problem with these reforms is that they're too restrictive. Willy's System Wars Comics, System Wars Monthly, and the upcoming System Wars: The Game contribute a TON to morale, and if they suddenly become against the rules... not a pretty picture. Same with the Bets thread. These things are what make System Wars fun, unlike so many other forums. Don't like it?Deal with it. This isn't GUFU (for which I also enjoy for different reasons).

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-RPGamer-

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#286 -RPGamer-
Member since 2002 • 34283 Posts
[QUOTE="-RPGamer-"][QUOTE="Ice_Forge"]

But older members want you guys to think it was some kind of golden age of ancient greece where people thought really hard about stuff and learned things and did it all in a civil manner.

Ice_Forge

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth :|. While I do agree that this place was better at one point, it wasn't b/c everything was more thought out and civil. It some ways this place was a better community then b/c it was more liberal, more open during debates and topics.

Hey last I checked I wasn't even talking to you. Why don't you continue namedropping and trying to look cool?

Wow aren't you a forumer, I'm one of the two older forumers that was posting up to the point you made the comment. I'm not trying to look cool, I have no need it's a damn forum about videogames.

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Ninja-Vox

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#287 Ninja-Vox
Member since 2006 • 16314 Posts
I like your thinking; may i also propose the scrapping of "system wars rules"? I see this is a forum, and not a game. It makes me cringe whenever i say mass effect is an enjoyable game, only to be reminded that it's not because "system wars rules" declare it a flop.
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Jacboy71

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#288 Jacboy71
Member since 2007 • 1421 Posts

[QUOTE="ArisShadows"]Some value ideas, but I semi-disagree on the min level requirement, it may push back a good deal of bandodgers but it will push anyone who wanders in and want to be part of SW. I been trying to get some people come post in SW, and with someone like that, it wouldn't work out for them or any newcomers. subrosian

Lv. 10 and 100 posts is not hard to achieve. New members to GameSpot should spend time in other parts of the site, and contributing to the other forums before coming to System Wars. If anything, it will instill a "lurk first, post second" mindset that is sorely needed to reduce the number of repeat topics and similar arguments.

In general a new poster is here to contribute something obvious that has already been contributed, making them gain a deeper understanding of GameSpot can only do good.

Now you lost me what about the people who just come to skim the pages now your sounding as arrogant as Hugo Chavez. you taking these forums to seriously.
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subrosian

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#289 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts
[QUOTE="subrosian"]

[QUOTE="ArisShadows"]Some value ideas, but I semi-disagree on the min level requirement, it may push back a good deal of bandodgers but it will push anyone who wanders in and want to be part of SW. I been trying to get some people come post in SW, and with someone like that, it wouldn't work out for them or any newcomers. Jacboy71

Lv. 10 and 100 posts is not hard to achieve. New members to GameSpot should spend time in other parts of the site, and contributing to the other forums before coming to System Wars. If anything, it will instill a "lurk first, post second" mindset that is sorely needed to reduce the number of repeat topics and similar arguments.

In general a new poster is here to contribute something obvious that has already been contributed, making them gain a deeper understanding of GameSpot can only do good.

Now you lost me what about the people who just come to skim the pages now your sounding as arrogant as Hugo Chavez. you taking these forums to seriously.

It has nothing to do with arrogance, it has to do with the very practical matter of reducing the moderation load being generated by System Wars, and the amount of trolling, spam, and directly insulting posts that generally come from low-level users. It does not take a long time for a person to reach this level / post count - but it takes enough that they will have had some experience with GS, and the trolls, spammers, ban-dodgers and the like have a good chance of being found and / or getting an opportunity to learn / be integreated into GameSpot.

Your own post does little to refute the claim that low-level posters are more prone to statements intent to be hurtful, while I appreciate that a few "innocent" posters may be inconveinced, it's a small price to pay - the general good from this rule would *far* outweigh the bad.

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dk_2007

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#291 dk_2007
Member since 2007 • 680 Posts

Your intentions are good, but I dont like when you want to delete comic strips.

You may not be saying that comic strips are dumb whereas walls of text are fun, but your suggestion may amount to supressing creativity!

Comic strips are not only fun but are an effective medium to get one's point accross. I should not even have to remind that a picture's worth is more than 1000 words.

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Jacboy71

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#292 Jacboy71
Member since 2007 • 1421 Posts

Your intentions are good, but I dont like when you want to delete comic strips.

You may not be saying that comic strips are dumb whereas walls of text are fun, but your suggestion may amount to supressing creativity!

Comic strips are not only fun but are an effective medium to get one's point accross. I should not even have to remind that a picture's worth is more than 1000 words.

dk_2007
Seems to me like a case of good intentions bad execution.
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subrosian

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#293 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts

Your intentions are good, but I dont like when you want to delete comic strips.

You may not be saying that comic strips are dumb whereas walls of text are fun, but your suggestion may amount to supressing creativity!

Comic strips are not only fun but are an effective medium to get one's point accross. I should not even have to remind that a picture's worth is more than 1000 words.

dk_2007

Parody strips of System Wars belong in blogs and unions, not in System Wars. Off-topic was removed from System Wars, if you don't agree with that you're entitled to fight for them to be merged again, however until that day these type of posts remain spam which detract from the ability for serious discussion to occur. Ultimately the only reason such things would be posted *here* instead of in the appropriate place (blog, union, UCB) is to attention-whore (aka spam, troll) the forum.

Further - not *all comics* are allowed, certain users are violating the rules by posting them, and being granted an exception unfairly - they are not commiting an action allowed to *all users* of the forum. A small handful of users being allowed to ignore the rules because they have formed "friendships" outside of System Wars with persons able to influence a sticky is the *definition* of elitism, and certainly something moderators I'm friends with (I know for a fact) avoid doing with my posts, thoughts, ideas, content, et cetera.

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dk_2007

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#294 dk_2007
Member since 2007 • 680 Posts


Minimum Poster Level

I propose a minimum level of 10, and a minimum post count of 100 to post in System Wars. This level is not hard to achieve, but it will force new accounts to prove they can contribute meaningfully to GameSpot before participating in System Wars.

subrosian

An easier transition may be to impose a minimum level restriction only on thread creators and not on posters.

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Jacboy71

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#295 Jacboy71
Member since 2007 • 1421 Posts
[QUOTE="dk_2007"]

Your intentions are good, but I dont like when you want to delete comic strips.

You may not be saying that comic strips are dumb whereas walls of text are fun, but your suggestion may amount to supressing creativity!

Comic strips are not only fun but are an effective medium to get one's point accross. I should not even have to remind that a picture's worth is more than 1000 words.

subrosian

Parody strips of System Wars belong in blogs and unions, not in System Wars. Off-topic was removed from System Wars, if you don't agree with that you're entitled to fight for them to be merged again, however until that day these type of posts remain spam which detract from the ability for serious discussion to occur. Ultimately the only reason such things would be posted *here* instead of in the appropriate place (blog, union, UCB) is to attention-whore (aka spam, troll) the forum.

Further - not *all comics* are allowed, certain users are violating the rules by posting them, and being granted an exception unfairly - they are not commiting an action allowed to *all users* of the forum. A small handful of users being allowed to ignore the rules because they have formed "friendships" outside of System Wars with persons able to influence a sticky is the *definition* of elitism, and certainly something moderators I'm friends with (I know for a fact) avoid doing with my posts, thoughts, ideas, content, et cetera.

This is a forum where gamers meet up and dicuss/debate thier views how they do so is their choice. If its not inappropriate let casey or other mods handle it simple as that . What you propose is dictatorship and is clearly not what system wars should be in 2008
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bruckout

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#296 bruckout
Member since 2003 • 1491 Posts
System Wars died after the CityBoy incident many years ago..
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subrosian

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#297 subrosian
Member since 2005 • 14232 Posts
[QUOTE="subrosian"]


Minimum Poster Level

I propose a minimum level of 10, and a minimum post count of 100 to post in System Wars. This level is not hard to achieve, but it will force new accounts to prove they can contribute meaningfully to GameSpot before participating in System Wars.

dk_2007

An easier transition may be by imposing a minimum level restriction only on thread creator's and not on posters.

The chancs of a lv. 1 ~ 5 users posting in System Wars who is not a ban-dodger, alt, or some other account which should (for a number of reasons) be forced to demonstrate it is an account a user is investing in (time wise) is rather slim - it's not impossible that this would be the first forum a new user migrates to, but I'd say its rather unlikely - with game and system specific forums being a more natural home for a new user.

As we approach lv. 10 it's more likely for them to "find" this place, but I still feel going "all the way" and making it for posting (period) would be the best course of action.

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krunkfu2

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#298 krunkfu2
Member since 2007 • 4218 Posts

System wars owns.

it gets the news around and you can laugh!

(if you're not a fanboy)

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Hewkii

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#299 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

The chancs of a lv. 1 ~ 5 users posting in System Wars who is not a ban-dodger, alt, or some other account which should (for a number of reasons) be forced to demonstrate it is an account a user is investing in (time wise) is rather slim - it's not impossible that this would be the first forum a new user migrates to, but I'd say its rather unlikely - with game and system specific forums being a more natural home for a new user.

subrosian

though at the same time, most of the posts of these low level trolls are in the forms of topics.

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Jacboy71

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#300 Jacboy71
Member since 2007 • 1421 Posts
System Wars died after the CityBoy incident many years ago.. bruckout
cityboy incedent please do tell