Silicon Knight sues Epic! Too Human changes game engine entirely (AGAIN).

Talk about bad luck if this game gets pushed back even further. Maybe the Norse Gods are displeased with the development that SK have made thus far, and have, therefore, deemed them to be...."Too Human".:P

ironcreed

Nah Ragnarok happens instead :P ... Anyway, untill we know the root of the problem, they could have something in their hands agains't epic. Tho Xaosll does have a point... We'll see how this turns out...

[QUOTE="KirbyFan10101"]

They are talking about the engine being "inadequete", and somehow that reads as "Silicon Knight sucks!". We don't even know the claim so why are you jumping the Epic bandwagon? Because they are the more prominent developer?

Not-A-Stalker

I didn't say SK sucks. :| They're complaining about the engine and their game STILL looks pretty bad. I'm just putting 1 and 1 together. If the engine is really causing so many inadequacies to other devs, why isn't this a class action law suit? This is the first time I've ever seen anyone complain about the engine. So many other games look amazing with the engine, but SK simply can't figure it out. I'm not insulting SK or anything. It's just a stupid move.

Just because other games came out well doesn't mean they didn't still have problems with it. Besides, I'm sure these games are contracted on an individual basis, maybe whatever issue SK is having only applies to them and maybe a few other developers using UE3. If others had problems developing with UE3 you wouldn't necessarily hear about it anyway, I'm sure its not the kind of internal thing developers often go blabbing to the media. The only reason we're hearing about it now is because of a lawsuit.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759vgf434

If true, then Epic is in breach of contract and SK has every right to sue Epic for every cent they paid them plus damages.

Wow, I wonder what this will end up being all about? All I know is that I hope Too Human does not get pushed back, as it is the main, out of the few exclusive 360 titles that I want.ironcreed

Considering that SK is going to have to use a whole new engine now, yes, it will be pushed back. You should pray it doesn't become vaporware.

This game is never coming out, is it?inertk

Wikipedia said last year that between 80-100 MILLION was funneled into development of this game over the last 10 years while it switched platforms from the PS1 to the Gamecube to the 360. How much more money has been wasted from then to now?

[QUOTE="nivet14"]You made an account for this.vgf434

Anything elseyou need clarification on?

Hehehe. Nice witty come back. ;)

[QUOTE="vgf434"]http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759Hoffgod

If true, then Epic is in breach of contract and SK has every right to sue Epic for every cent they paid them plus damages.

Too Human is no longer using the Unreal Engine 3. Now uses the "Silicon Knights Engine". :lol:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759

It's also revealed: "Progress on the Silicon Knights' Engine continues to date and, at this time, the Silicon Knights Engine is completely independent of Epic's Engine and certainly derives no benefit from the unworkable source code provided by Epic."

"In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an "Enhancement" of Epic's Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic's Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights' Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."'

vgf434

I dont get this... They say they are creating a new independent engine and then go on to say that it is an "Enhancement" of the UE3 Engine. What is going on?

[QUOTE="vgf434"]

Too Human is no longer using the Unreal Engine 3. Now uses the "Silicon Knights Engine". :lol:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759

It's also revealed: "Progress on the Silicon Knights' Engine continues to date and, at this time, the Silicon Knights Engine is completely independent of Epic's Engine and certainly derives no benefit from the unworkable source code provided by Epic."

"In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an "Enhancement" of Epic's Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic's Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights' Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."'

Philmon

I dont get this... They say they are creating a new independent engine and then go on to say that it is an "Enhancement" of the UE3 Engine. What is going on?

Sounds like grounds for a counter lawsuit.

[QUOTE="ironcreed"]Wow, I wonder what this will end up being all about? All I know is that I hope Too Human does not get pushed back, as it is the main, out of the few exclusive 360 titles that I want.Splincir

Considering that SK is going to have to use a whole new engine now, yes, it will be pushed back. You should pray it doesn't become vaporware.

Yes, as this thread has progressed with more news, it certainly appears that this will more than likely be the case. I guess we might as well write Too Human off of the killer app. for 08' list.:(

[QUOTE="Philmon"][QUOTE="vgf434"]

Too Human is no longer using the Unreal Engine 3. Now uses the "Silicon Knights Engine". :lol:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759

It's also revealed: "Progress on the Silicon Knights' Engine continues to date and, at this time, the Silicon Knights Engine is completely independent of Epic's Engine and certainly derives no benefit from the unworkable source code provided by Epic."

"In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an "Enhancement" of Epic's Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic's Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights' Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."'

vgf434

I dont get this... They say they are creating a new independent engine and then go on to say that it is an "Enhancement" of the UE3 Engine. What is going on?

Sounds like grounds for a counter lawsuit.

If you read the article it said in the contract that they were allowed to do that :|

ms is just goin down the drain lately. do you guys see how epic is gonna be mad at ms for this also. more good news for ps3 fansresistancemang

What does Microsoft have to do with this?

[QUOTE="vgf434"][QUOTE="Philmon"][QUOTE="vgf434"]

Too Human is no longer using the Unreal Engine 3. Now uses the "Silicon Knights Engine". :lol:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759

It's also revealed: "Progress on the Silicon Knights' Engine continues to date and, at this time, the Silicon Knights Engine is completely independent of Epic's Engine and certainly derives no benefit from the unworkable source code provided by Epic."

"In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an "Enhancement" of Epic's Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic's Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights' Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."'

DarkRider23

I dont get this... They say they are creating a new independent engine and then go on to say that it is an "Enhancement" of the UE3 Engine. What is going on?

Sounds like grounds for a counter lawsuit.

If you read the article it said in the contract that they were allowed to do that :|

It sounds to me like they are trying to reverse-engineer the UE3 engine and create their own. From what I understand they are saying that this new engine will be thier property and not Epic's which would mean they could do anything with the new engine, even selling the rights to use it to other developers. I dont think Epic allows them to do that kind of thing in thier contract, but I could be wrong.

[QUOTE="Technoweirdo"]So what exactly could Silicon sue Epic for? Supafly1

Possibly something to do with the UE 3.0 engine. Maybe they were lied about the engine, maybe it doesn't work properly.

That's what it seems like from SK's statement. I wouldn't be surprised if Epic over sold their engine and what it could do. It's what takes place in a situation like that no matter the product. Prhaps SK asked Epic about specific things they'd like to do in their game and were told and lead to believe it could only to find out it wasn't possible. Thus touchs on damage to SK due to their wasted time and money and blaming Epic because they were mislead or lied to with Epic not doing anything or enough to correct the problem.

PS3 is getting so many good news and 360 has been getting bad news so far, could it be the beginning of the end??

Why did MS have to go and **** their relationship up with Epic? Seriously, if it was all sweets and roses between MS and Epic with their relationship I'm sure they could step in and sort this crap out. At the moment they have no leverage with Epic.

Whatever SK's problem with Epic I hope it doesn't ruin a promising game.

Why did MS have to go and **** their relationship up with Epic? Seriously, if it was all sweets and roses between MS and Epic with their relationship I'm sure they could step in and sort this crap out. At the moment they have no leverage with Epic.

Whatever SK's problem with Epic I hope it doesn't ruin a promising game.

Hoobinator

Again, what does Microsoft have to do with this?

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=16868

[UPDATE] GameDaily BIZ has now heard from Silicon Knights president Denis Dyack.

"We stand behind everything in our complaint and believe it is highly unfortunate that Epic forced us into this situation. We would rather spend our time focusing on making great games, but as stated in our complaint, Epic simply refuses to acknowledge the inadequacies of the Unreal Engine 3 code it provides to its licensees," he said, "and refuses to accept the fact that its code has caused serious damage not only to Silicon Knights, but a number of other developers in the industry. We look forward to successful resolution of our claims in this court proceeding."

:lol:

vgf434

Rainbow Six, Medal of Honor, The Last Remnant...who else? I've never heard of or seen anyone ever complain about UE3, this is ridiculous.

Too humanwill turn into next gen duke nukem forever...

Besides it wasn't well recieved anyways in any E3... They are prolly pissed at epic for selling em UE3 which they fail to optimize properly... I mean look at the laughable glitches and frame rates... It's not that game is even THAT good looking really.. SK just sucks and this proves it.

Epic FTW.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"]

Why did MS have to go and **** their relationship up with Epic? Seriously, if it was all sweets and roses between MS and Epic with their relationship I'm sure they could step in and sort this crap out. At the moment they have no leverage with Epic.

Whatever SK's problem with Epic I hope it doesn't ruin a promising game.

thinicer

Again, what does Microsoft have to do with this?

I just feel they should be stepping in and sorting this mess out. They're the head guys, it's their platform, and it reflects badly on their brand if one of their developers is suing another developer who has been on the 360's side since day one.

I just feel they should be stepping in and sorting this mess out. They're the head guys, it's their platform, and it reflects badly on their brand if one of their developers is suing another developer who has been on the 360's side since day one.

Hoobinator

I think you are exaggerating this. You actually think Epic is gonna get mad at Microsoft? Microsoft helped them make a crap load of money from Gears of War.

Yes, it is Microsoft's platform, and they are publishing the game, but that's all they are contributing to Silicon Knights. It's not like Microsoft is the host who is dealing with a bunch of houseguests who don't like each other. They provided the platform, and SK decided to make a game on it. SK made the design choice for their game by licensing unreal engine 3 from Epic. Microsoft did not make any design decisions for SK.

Therefore, Microsoft is not going to incur Epic's wrath.

Therefore, Microsoft is not going to incur Epic's wrath.

thinicer

It already is. ;) They're no longer bestest buddies with MS no more. Seems they like the curves on the PS3 more now.

[QUOTE="thinicer"]

Therefore, Microsoft is not going to incur Epic's wrath.

Hoobinator

It already is. ;) They're no longer bestest buddies with MS no more. Seems they like the curves on the PS3 more now.

Riiiiight fanboy, after Microsoft helped Epic make a ton of money from Gears of War. You got me there.

Epic allows developers to play around with UE3 before they put the money down to license it. If there are enough inadequacies that SK doesn't think it's worth it, maybe they should have looked closer before they paid to use the thing.vgf434

aka.

I [SK]sampled andbought the pie [UE3], cause I liked it. But I got sick eating the 10th slice. I am going to sue the pie maker cause the 10th slice got me qizzy.

[QUOTE="Hoobinator"][QUOTE="thinicer"]

Therefore, Microsoft is not going to incur Epic's wrath.

thinicer

It already is. ;) They're no longer bestest buddies with MS no more. Seems they like the curves on the PS3 more now.

Riiiiight fanboy, after Microsoft helped Epic make a ton of money from Gears of War. You got me there.

Money can also be made on the PS3. The PC has also made Epic where it is today but it seems they are concentrating just as much on consoles as on the PC. Why?, because that's business they go where the money is and where they feel in control.

I also have a 360. :roll:

This explains why there was no showing at E3, and why MS decided to only show games for 2007, good excuse...mismajor99

Money can also be made on the PS3. The PC has also made Epic where it is today but it seems they are concentrating just as much on consoles as on the PC. Why?, because that's business they go where the money is and where they feel in control.

Hoobinator

So you interpret Epic's dealings with other platforms and companies as evidence that they hate MS? Funny how that works.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=16868

[UPDATE] GameDaily BIZ has now heard from Silicon Knights president Denis Dyack.

"We stand behind everything in our complaint and believe it is highly unfortunate that Epic forced us into this situation. We would rather spend our time focusing on making great games, but as stated in our complaint, Epic simply refuses to acknowledge the inadequacies of the Unreal Engine 3 code it provides to its licensees," he said, "and refuses to accept the fact that its code has caused serious damage not only to Silicon Knights, but a number of other developers in the industry. We look forward to successful resolution of our claims in this court proceeding."

:lol:

vgf434

Wait...what!?!??

So hes suing because he thinks they are gimping them on the code? Maybe I don't know..his team just can't hack it?

Other than some obscure breach of contract claim I don't see how Epic could be liable for anything here. Jeesh, I'm starting to see why Dyack is so hated over at GAF.Runningflame570

Read this, he actually uses the fact that Gears of War rocked at E3 06, and Too Human sucked, as PROOF. It's in the actual lawsuit :lol: :

"That advantage was nowhere more evident than at E3 2006, where Gears of War was awarded "Best Game in Show" and garnered nothing but laudatory press. By contrast, Silicon Knights - one of the only other [Unreal Engine 3] developers to publicly display a playable demonstration of its game - saw Too Human roundly criticized in the videogame press for its technical problems and generally unpolished appearance. The damage to Silicon Knights caused by Epic's misconduct was manifest, because E3 attendees were able to compare Too Human with another game running ostensibly the same game engine, Gears of War, with vastly superior results."

Too humanwill turn into next gen duke nukem forever...

Besides it wasn't well recieved anyways in any E3... They are prolly pissed at epic for selling em UE3 which they fail to optimize properly... I mean look at the laughable glitches and frame rates... It's not that game is even THAT good looking really.. SK just sucks and this proves it.

Epic FTW.

Sollet

turn into it? hasnt it been in development for about the same amount of time

anyways, the fact that it wasn't 'well received' could just have to do with the fact that the delayed engine delayed the game's polishing

i wouldnt blame SK for lack of optimization either, they are competent developers

maybe you could explain why they suck so much though?

What Dennis really thinks

"I suck at making games so I will sue Epic because I cant make them work!"

This is pretty funny though. Both Too Human and GeOW are published by MGS and thats what this is mainly about. Dennis is crying about not getting the GeOW build of UE3 lol.

76. The problems created by Epic's withholding of such enhancements and
optimizations on the dubious grounds of them being "game-specific" became especially
pronounced when such withholding impacted the specific benchmarks known as "Technical
Certification Requirements" (or "TCRs") that every videogame must meet before it can be
played on a particular game console. For example, Microsoft imposes certain TCR's for games
that are to be run on the Xbox 360. One very basic TCR is simply how long it takes the
videogame to start-up. For Silicon Knights, as of May, 2006, the Engine had been unable to
meet even that simple start-up requirement, still taking over twice as long as Microsoft requires
in its Xbox 360 TCRs.

77. Another of Microsoft's TCRs is that the system User Interface ("UI") can be
rendered at least every 66 milliseconds at all times. As of at least as late as May, 2006, it was
clear to Silicon Knights that the Engine and its renderer could not satisfy that TCR.


78. However, when Epic was asked what was being done to bring the Engine into
compliance with these fundamental TCR requirements from the Xbox 360 manufacturer (which
again, Epic warranted to Silicon Knights it would meet), Epic responded that, though it was at
that very time working toward meeting the TCRs in Gears of War, that level of functionality
would not "make it to the engine level, as it is custom to the game."

but wait, there's more

BIA: Hell's Highway - delayed
Bioshock - delayed
Elveon - delayed/cancelled
Fatal inertia - delayed
Huxley- delayed
Mass effect - delayed
MOH - delayed
Stranglehold - delayed
Too human - delayed
Turok - delayed
Frame City Killer - cancelled
Endless Saga - cancelled

im beginning to think because of all of epic's fanboy love, some people really aren't well versed in SK's roots

these are developers who know howto write an actual story

What Dennis really thinks

"I suck at making games so I will sue Epic because I cant make them work!"

This is pretty funny though. Both Too Human and GeOW are published by MGS and thats what this is mainly about. Dennis is crying about not getting the GeOW build of UE3 lol.

asdasd

Well after having read more they might actually have something, but it still looks like they are just having a hissy fit because they couldn't cut it with the development. I mean seriously...the game has already spent as much as some of the more expensive Hollywood films across three different platforms.

Either they are aiming too high, they aren't as good as they are made out to be, or some combination of the two.

What Dennis really thinks

"I suck at making games so I will sue Epic because I cant make them work!"

asdasd

Have you ever heard of Eternal Darkness, youngster ?

I thought so, it's one of his most recent games - http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/913957.asp (Also 9.4 on GS, mind you)