Skyrim or Dark Souls : If you had to choose one ...

Agonizingly close, Dark souls just. Getting both day 1.

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.

*if* Skyrim manages to be better than Oblivion it will be MIGHT be playble upon relese, and have enough redeeming value to actually warrent putting in some time to play.

That is how big the quality diffrence is between the predesessors of these two titles is for me.

It is obvious that most of you have never even touched Demon's Souls (being a PS3 exclusive and..) because of the laughability of some of the comments in posts favoring skyrim, or they have played Demon's Souls but have yet to grasp the depth of this game because they could not get past it's difficulty. :lol: somebody even said the combat in Oblvion and Demon's Souls was almost the same haha man..uh what? who? wow! Also difficulty shouldn't be a turn off for hardcore RPG fans. The best RPGs generally have a high level of difficulty anyway, there just aren't that many good quality based RPGs out there besides Demon's Souls this gen,.

Dark Souls easy choice, actually because of the reason's I've stated it should be a no-brainer. And for the people saying skyrim because of how big and long it is supposed to be, remember bigger does not always = better--Demon's Souls comparison to Oblivion is proof of that.

Dark Souls all the way.

Dark Souls all the way.

RonnieLottinSF

He knows what's up

I don't know where this notion of Bethesda's games being 'broken' at release came from but that hasn't been my experience at all. There will always be bugs in games when they're as enormous and open as Bethesda makes them, but 'broken'? Sounds like a bunch of overblown hyperbole from Bethesda haters to me.

Anyway, I would pick Skyrim. I loved Demons Souls but Dark Souls does look very similar and I'm still unsure what, if any, improvements have been made there. Plus, it's only been two years. With Skyrim on the other hand, there hasn't been a single quality open world fantasy RPG since Oblivion, FIVE years ago now...I'm dying to spend 300+ hours in another fantasy world the way I did with Oblivion.

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.

*if* Skyrim manages to be better than Oblivion it will be MIGHT be playble upon relese, and have enough redeeming value to actually warrent putting in some time to play.

That is how big the quality diffrence is between the predesessors of these two titles is for me.

It is obvious that most of you have never even touched Demon's Souls (being a PS3 exclusive and..) because of the laughability of some of the comments in posts favoring skyrim, or they have played Demon's Souls but have yet to grasp the depth of this game because they could not get past it's difficulty. :lol: somebody even said the combat in Oblvion and Demon's Souls was almost the same haha man..uh what? who? wow! Also difficulty shouldn't be a turn off for hardcore RPG fans. The best RPGs generally have a high level of difficulty anyway, there just aren't that many good quality based RPGs out there besides Demon's Souls this gen,.

Dark Souls easy choice, actually because of the reason's I've stated it should be a no-brainer. And for the people saying skyrim because of how big and long it is supposed to be, remember bigger does not always = better--Demon's Souls comparison to Oblivion is proof of that.

casharmy

Demons Souls was neither deep nor difficult.

With that said, Demon's Souls wasnt easy or shallow either. Unlike some other ARPG *cough* Oblivion *cough*

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.

*if* Skyrim manages to be better than Oblivion it will be MIGHT be playble upon relese, and have enough redeeming value to actually warrent putting in some time to play.

That is how big the quality diffrence is between the predesessors of these two titles is for me.

It is obvious that most of you have never even touched Demon's Souls (being a PS3 exclusive and..) because of the laughability of some of the comments in posts favoring skyrim, or they have played Demon's Souls but have yet to grasp the depth of this game because they could not get past it's difficulty. :lol: somebody even said the combat in Oblvion and Demon's Souls was almost the same haha man..uh what? who? wow! Also difficulty shouldn't be a turn off for hardcore RPG fans. The best RPGs generally have a high level of difficulty anyway, there just aren't that many good quality based RPGs out there besides Demon's Souls this gen,.

Dark Souls easy choice, actually because of the reason's I've stated it should be a no-brainer. And for the people saying skyrim because of how big and long it is supposed to be, remember bigger does not always = better--Demon's Souls comparison to Oblivion is proof of that.

Maroxad

Demons Souls was neither deep nor difficult.

With that said, Demon's Souls wasnt easy or shallow either. Unlike some other ARPG *cough* Oblivion *cough*

Deispite our diffrence of opinion on Demon's Souls :D at least we both agree on Oblivion.

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.

*if* Skyrim manages to be better than Oblivion it will be MIGHT be playble upon relese, and have enough redeeming value to actually warrent putting in some time to play.

That is how big the quality diffrence is between the predesessors of these two titles is for me.

It is obvious that most of you have never even touched Demon's Souls (being a PS3 exclusive and..) because of the laughability of some of the comments in posts favoring skyrim, or they have played Demon's Souls but have yet to grasp the depth of this game because they could not get past it's difficulty. :lol: somebody even said the combat in Oblvion and Demon's Souls was almost the same haha man..uh what? who? wow! Also difficulty shouldn't be a turn off for hardcore RPG fans. The best RPGs generally have a high level of difficulty anyway, there just aren't that many good quality based RPGs out there besides Demon's Souls this gen,.

Dark Souls easy choice, actually because of the reason's I've stated it should be a no-brainer. And for the people saying skyrim because of how big and long it is supposed to be, remember bigger does not always = better--Demon's Souls comparison to Oblivion is proof of that.

casharmy

Why dose it matter that never used that pic before? The laughability of you using that picture now to try to be funny doesn't change the fact that the use of it here is still a failure on your part.

:lol: I have seen you admited that you don't have a PS3 in the past and you want others to believe that you actually know anything about Demon's Souls to be able to even make an evaluation of how it stacks up to Oblivion, or any of the other games coming out in the future for that matter?

I have never used this picture before either...

casharmy

Calm down, It's just a pic. And no, I don't have a PS3, which doesn't mean I've never played Demon's Souls.:| Why are you so pissed off about people looking forward to Skyrim more anyway? You like Demon's Souls, fine, does that mean everyone should like it? For someone who complains all the time about fanboys on this board, you sure act like one when it comes to DS.

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Demons Souls was neither deep nor difficult.

With that said, Demon's Souls wasnt easy or shallow either. Unlike some other ARPG *cough* Oblivion *cough*

casharmy

Deispite our diffrence of opinion on Demon's Souls :D at least we both agree on Oblivion.

I would say Demons Souls is actually more easy than it is difficult, and more shallow than it is deep. But to put it on the same level as Oblivion would be insulting to Demons Souls.

There is a reason people are having a difficult time considering both as RPGs, I consider DS to be an RPG however, but only lightly.

Demons Souls was an easy game because of a terrible enemy AI, overabundant healing (from what I am hearing Dark Souls is fixing this), redicilously slow enemy projectiles, overpowered roll, slow enemies (I beat some bosses without ever getting hit on the first try), unbalanced spells (lolwarding) and if you spent points on vitality, enemies didnt do too much damage anyway. Now that I think of it, there is a reason some people purposely took down their HP to 35% to abuse cat's ring, enemies werent that hard to evade anyway.

Now a deep and hard rpg this gen would be Dungeons of Dredmor. Judging by footage I have seen of it as well as what my friends have told me (all of them have played DS as well, and share my opinion).

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Why dose it matter that never used that pic before? The laughability of you using that picture now to try to be funny doesn't change the fact that the use of it here is still a failure on your part.

:lol: I have seen you admited that you don't have a PS3 in the past and you want others to believe that you actually know anything about Demon's Souls to be able to even make an evaluation of how it stacks up to Oblivion, or any of the other games coming out in the future for that matter?

I have never used this picture before either...

waltefmoney

Calm down, It's just a pic. And no, I don't have a PS3, which doesn't mean I've never played Demon's Souls.:| Why are you so pissed off about people looking forward to Skyrim more anyway? You like Demon's Souls, fine, does that mean everyone should like it? For someone who complains all the time about fanboys on this board, you sure act like one when it comes to DS.

Played of finished it?

Played of finished it?

KiZZo1

Played. Why? Did I say Oblivion > Demon's Souls or anything like that?

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.

*if* Skyrim manages to be better than Oblivion it will be MIGHT be playble upon relese, and have enough redeeming value to actually warrent putting in some time to play.

That is how big the quality diffrence is between the predesessors of these two titles is for me.

It is obvious that most of you have never even touched Demon's Souls (being a PS3 exclusive and..) because of the laughability of some of the comments in posts favoring skyrim, or they have played Demon's Souls but have yet to grasp the depth of this game because they could not get past it's difficulty. :lol: somebody even said the combat in Oblvion and Demon's Souls was almost the same haha man..uh what? who? wow! Also difficulty shouldn't be a turn off for hardcore RPG fans. The best RPGs generally have a high level of difficulty anyway, there just aren't that many good quality based RPGs out there besides Demon's Souls this gen,.

Dark Souls easy choice, actually because of the reason's I've stated it should be a no-brainer. And for the people saying skyrim because of how big and long it is supposed to be, remember bigger does not always = better--Demon's Souls comparison to Oblivion is proof of that.

Vesica_Prime

If you enjoy the Elder Scrolls Serise that cool wit me. I enjoyed Elder Scrolls Morrowind 3 myself.

[QUOTE="KiZZo1"]

Played of finished it?

waltefmoney

Played. Why? Did I say Oblivion > Demon's Souls or anything like that?

No, but you ridiculed his opinion without even a proper basis for having your own opinion ...

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Why dose it matter that never used that pic before? The laughability of you using that picture now to try to be funny doesn't change the fact that the use of it here is still a failure on your part.

:lol: I have seen you admited that you don't have a PS3 in the past and you want others to believe that you actually know anything about Demon's Souls to be able to even make an evaluation of how it stacks up to Oblivion, or any of the other games coming out in the future for that matter?

I have never used this picture before either...

waltefmoney

Calm down, It's just a pic. And no, I don't have a PS3, which doesn't mean I've never played Demon's Souls.:| Why are you so pissed off about people looking forward to Skyrim more anyway? You like Demon's Souls, fine, does that mean everyone should like it? For someone who complains all the time about fanboyson this board, you sure act like one when it comes to DS.

:twisted: I am

The diffrence between me and alot of other fanboys on this board however is that I make no secret about what I am a fanboy of. One of the biggest problems I have with fanboys in general is they try to hide behind an air of objectivity to promote or hate on everything else that is in competition--the other problem I have is straight out lying about something to hype or dis whatever promotes your prefrence.

Now I do have legitamate resaon's why I hype and promote this game so much, butthat doen't change the fact that the impactwhich Demon's Souls had on me has *probably* left an air of irrationallity on my mind when compaired to other games, so maybe I go a lil overboard somtimes--I'm man enough to admit that.

With the said, I am a realist and a gamer first. I will put Dark Souls up to the same standards that I have judged every other game that has came out this generation and then I will put it to the higher level set by Demon's Souls( I don't even do that for other games)and if Dark Souls fails to come close to a level of quality I feel set by Demon's, I will be devistated and will not continue to mindlessly praise and hype the game like a delusional fanboy.

MGS was my most hyped and favorite franchise coming into this generation and I hyped defended MGS4 it to the teeth before playing. After I did play it, andit failed to meet my standards for what I expected from the MGS saga I stopped all personal praiseand hype of MGS4. Have you seen my personal comments on how I feel about MGS4 now?

Just saying, not all fanboys are created equal. The myth that all fanboys are created equal was created by the worst fanboys to somehow put them on equal argument grounds with less irrational fans and to keep from being called out for being liers and hypocrites.

No, but you ridiculed his opinion without even a proper basis for having your own opinion ...

KiZZo1

No I didn't. Did you even read my post?

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Demons Souls was neither deep nor difficult.

With that said, Demon's Souls wasnt easy or shallow either. Unlike some other ARPG *cough* Oblivion *cough*

Maroxad

Deispite our diffrence of opinion on Demon's Souls :D at least we both agree on Oblivion.

*snip* to put it on the same level as Oblivion would be insulting to Demons Souls.

*snip*

Like I said we have a diffrence of opinion on Demon's Souls and the difficulty isn't the only reason the game is played FYI. Also I will check out that game you mentioned to see how it is, as I haven't heard anything about it.

I'm sure there are games that you praise that I would probably consider bad as well but I wouldn't beconstantly going around making bad comments about them if they actually had good qualities. The only reson why I even really recognize your posts is because I always see you making bad comments about DS. there is no reaon for a seemingly hard core gamer to make such harsh comments about demon's souls EVEN if you didn't like the game because you should recognize what brilliant qualities it does have. Thinking of how much better it is compaired to so many other MORE hyped high profile games there are, it would be more efficent for you to spend your time trashing those games instead.

There is 0 benifit for bashing a game like Demon's Souls if you are any kind of serious gamer. Trust me if a gamer doen't take a chance at playing a game like Demon's or Dark Souls they will NEVER take a chance at playing one of the game that youkeep praising being low rated and unknown by most.

I don't know what you base your standards for bashing Demon's souls on is but you seem to be neglecting Demon's Souls quality here. Another reason for the praise of this game is how well thought out everything is that was put into the game(too many elements for me to bother trying tolist) and how everything was made to work together weapon, online, world Tendencies..etc. man can't even go into how complex making all those things working together as nicely as they do had to be. You should think about some of those things before posting that same old spill on DS being shallow.

[QUOTE="KiZZo1"]

No, but you ridiculed his opinion without even a proper basis for having your own opinion ...

waltefmoney

No I didn't. Did you even read my post?

Perhaps now you see the reason for my reply to what you decided to post? And perhaps in this discussion between you and this other fellow gentleman the best course of action for you might be to..

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.

*if* Skyrim manages to be better than Oblivion it will be MIGHT be playble upon relese, and have enough redeeming value to actually warrent putting in some time to play.

That is how big the quality diffrence is between the predesessors of these two titles is for me.

It is obvious that most of you have never even touched Demon's Souls (being a PS3 exclusive and..) because of the laughability of some of the comments in posts favoring skyrim, or they have played Demon's Souls but have yet to grasp the depth of this game because they could not get past it's difficulty. :lol: somebody even said the combat in Oblvion and Demon's Souls was almost the same haha man..uh what? who? wow! Also difficulty shouldn't be a turn off for hardcore RPG fans. The best RPGs generally have a high level of difficulty anyway, there just aren't that many good quality based RPGs out there besides Demon's Souls this gen,.

Dark Souls easy choice, actually because of the reason's I've stated it should be a no-brainer. And for the people saying skyrim because of how big and long it is supposed to be, remember bigger does not always = better--Demon's Souls comparison to Oblivion is proof of that.

Can't wait for Skyrim to outscore Dark Souls just about everywhere.

Dark Souls is obviously gonna be the better game. Bethesda RPGs are great when you start playing them but get boring after a while. They're also full of glitches and have woody combat (maybe Skyrim will fix that?).

Dark Souls because overall i think it will be the better crafted game. Tho Skyrim is a Day 1 purchase for me as well. If i had to choose Dark Souls.

Like I said we have a diffrence of opinion on Demon's Souls and the difficulty isn't the only reason the game is played FYI. Also I will check out that game you mentioned to see how it is, as I haven't heard anything about it.

I'm sure there are games that you praise that I would probably consider bad as well but I wouldn't beconstantly going around making bad comments about them if they actually had good qualities. The only reson why I even really recognize your posts is because I always see you making bad comments about DS. there is no reaon for a seemingly hard core gamer to make such harsh comments about demon's souls EVEN if you didn't like the game because you should recognize what brilliant qualities it does have. Thinking of how much better it is compaired to so many other MORE hyped high profile games there are, it would be more efficent for you to spend your time trashing those games instead.

There is 0 benifit for bashing a game like Demon's Souls if you are any kind of serious gamer. Trust me if a gamer doen't take a chance at playing a game like Demon's or Dark Souls they will NEVER take a chance at playing one of the game that youkeep praising being low rated and unknown by most.

I don't know what you base your standards for bashing Demon's souls on is but you seem to be neglecting Demon's Souls quality here. Another reason for the praise of this game is how well thought out everything is that was put into the game(too many elements for me to bother trying tolist) and how everything was made to work together weapon, online, world Tendencies..etc. man can't even go into how complex making all those things working together as nicely as they do had to be. You should think about some of those things before posting that same old spill on DS being shallow.

casharmy

Now now. Dont get me wrong, I loved Demons Souls, and is one of my top 20 games this gen. However, I think the difficulty and depth are overblown.

Here is why I like Demons Souls

• Interesting concepts like soul form/body form
• Each boss kill gives you one demon soul, choices come in on how to spend that soul
• The atmosphere was excellent, depressing and dark
• The combat system is among the best for Action RPGs, beaten only by a few titles such as Mount and Blade
• Subtle storytelling, I dont know how many times I have had to remind people that Demons Souls has a story. It was just told subteltly, which I loved
• Play as Tower of Latria's final boss
• Some boss fights werer excellent, backed up by an already excellent melee combat
• A guy in full plate mail is not as agile as one in leather armor
• The multiplayer/single player integration. Among the best I have ever seen

My only disappointments with that game was the disappointing difficulty, poor magic and archery system, world tendancy system and the fact that it had to end :cry:

Btw, I pre-ordered Dark Souls some time ago, and it is not often I do that. I preordered it because I loved Demons Souls, but at the same time, I could admit Demons Souls did have flaws. Flaws that are hopefully fixed in Dark Souls.

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Like I said we have a diffrence of opinion on Demon's Souls and the difficulty isn't the only reason the game is played FYI. Also I will check out that game you mentioned to see how it is, as I haven't heard anything about it.

I'm sure there are games that you praise that I would probably consider bad as well but I wouldn't beconstantly going around making bad comments about them if they actually had good qualities. The only reson why I even really recognize your posts is because I always see you making bad comments about DS. there is no reaon for a seemingly hard core gamer to make such harsh comments about demon's souls EVEN if you didn't like the game because you should recognize what brilliant qualities it does have. Thinking of how much better it is compaired to so many other MORE hyped high profile games there are, it would be more efficent for you to spend your time trashing those games instead.

There is 0 benifit for bashing a game like Demon's Souls if you are any kind of serious gamer. Trust me if a gamer doen't take a chance at playing a game like Demon's or Dark Souls they will NEVER take a chance at playing one of the game that youkeep praising being low rated and unknown by most.

I don't know what you base your standards for bashing Demon's souls on is but you seem to be neglecting Demon's Souls quality here. Another reason for the praise of this game is how well thought out everything is that was put into the game(too many elements for me to bother trying tolist) and how everything was made to work together weapon, online, world Tendencies..etc. man can't even go into how complex making all those things working together as nicely as they do had to be. You should think about some of those things before posting that same old spill on DS being shallow.

Now now. Dont get me wrong, I loved Demons Souls, and is one of my top 20 games this gen. However, I think the difficulty and depth are overblown.

Here is why I like Demons Souls

• Interesting concepts like soul form/body form
• Each boss kill gives you one demon soul, choices come in on how to spend that soul
• The atmosphere was excellent, depressing and dark
• The combat system is among the best for Action RPGs, beaten only by a few titles such as Mount and Blade
• Subtle storytelling, I dont know how many times I have had to remind people that Demons Souls has a story. It was just told subteltly, which I loved
• Play as Tower of Latria's final boss
• Some boss fights werer excellent, backed up by an already excellent melee combat
• A guy in full plate mail is not as agile as one in leather armor
• The multiplayer/single player integration. Among the best I have ever seen

My only disappointments with that game was the disappointing difficulty, poor magic and archery system, world tendancy system and the fact that it had to end :cry:

Btw, I pre-ordered Dark Souls some time ago, and it is not often I do that. I preordered it because I loved Demons Souls, but at the same time, I could admit Demons Souls did have flaws. Flaws that are hopefully fixed in Dark Souls.

Considering I won't play Dark Souls and preordered Skyrim...

Skyrim. Not getting Dark Souls anyway.

[QUOTE="TheMoreYouOwn"]

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

Skyrim.

Dark Soulds isnt gonna have mods.

XaosII

That's because mods are scared to death of Dark Souls.

No, Dark Soulds isn't going to have mods because its on an inferior platform incapable of supporting mods.

I'd have to pick the one that can possibly give me more Sheogorath.:P

Cheese for everyone! Not wait scratch that cheese for no-one.:lol:

Skyrim, always been a huge fan of the Elder Scrolls series. I found Oblivion a bit disappointing, but hopefully they turn it around with Skyrim.

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.casharmy

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.DarkLink77

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.charlesdarwin55

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"]

[QUOTE="casharmy"]

Look at it like this,

*If* Dark Souls manages to be better than Demon's Souls it WILL be the best game this generation has produced, and a serious contender for being best game ever made.charlesdarwin55

[QUOTE="charlesdarwin55"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] There's so much wrong with this part of this post I don't even know where to start.

DarkLink77

[QUOTE="charlesdarwin55"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] There's so much wrong with this part of this post I don't even know where to start.

clone01

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="charlesdarwin55"] Like I know for a fact that you never finished the game in the first place.charlesdarwin55

Oh, really? You know for a fact? How's that?DarkLink77

I've booked a week off work for Dark Souls. I've also done the same for Skyrim. If I absolutely HAD to choose, I'd go with Dark Souls but thankfully, I can get both. :D

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

Now now. Dont get me wrong, I loved Demons Souls, and is one of my top 20 games this gen. However, I think the difficulty and depth are overblown.

Here is why I like Demons Souls

• Interesting concepts like soul form/body form
• Each boss kill gives you one demon soul, choices come in on how to spend that soul
• The atmosphere was excellent, depressing and dark
• The combat system is among the best for Action RPGs, beaten only by a few titles such as Mount and Blade
• Subtle storytelling, I dont know how many times I have had to remind people that Demons Souls has a story. It was just told subteltly, which I loved
• Play as Tower of Latria's final boss
• Some boss fights werer excellent, backed up by an already excellent melee combat
• A guy in full plate mail is not as agile as one in leather armor
• The multiplayer/single player integration. Among the best I have ever seen

My only disappointments with that game was the disappointing difficulty, poor magic and archery system, world tendancy system and the fact that it had to end :cry:

Btw, I pre-ordered Dark Souls some time ago, and it is not often I do that. I preordered it because I loved Demons Souls, but at the same time, I could admit Demons Souls did have flaws. Flaws that are hopefully fixed in Dark Souls.

charlesdarwin55

I never said it was a flaw, I said it was a disappiointment. But many of the things that made Demons Souls easy are the result of flaws, such as aawfully imbalanced magic system, dreadful enemy AI and "limit-less" healing.

I wouldnt say it is one of the best games of all time, this gen perhaps, but not of all time. It is not even in my top 30 RPGs. I also never touched Demons Souls again after Mount and Blade: Warband arrived in the mailbox. Which provided me with a much better battle system, character creation system, challange all while offering up a whole lot more freedom.

Demons Souls was a heapload of fun, but ultimately, there are a lot of better RPGs out there. Like Ultima 5.

What a surprise, System Wars chooses the wrong answer yet again. SilverChimera

Seriously can't understand why anyone, especially console gamers, would pick Skyrim over Dark Souls at launch. With Skyrim, you're essentially paying $60 to beta test until Bethesda patches it to a playable point, and even then, without mods, it'll probably be a bad game, just like Oblivion was.

A sane person would choose Dark Souls. Come at me 8)