Sony as a developer is pretty overrated.

"Being owned by Sony doesn't mean you are Sony, especially in the case of acquisitions."

What the actual **** did I just read?

You read a simple business dynamic, for example, the company I work for is owned by a much larger parent company, but I am not an employee of that parent company and the business we do does not involve them, I am an employee of their subsidiary.

Being owned by another entity does not equate to you being that entity. Cadillac is not General Motors as Lincoln is not Ford, they are subsidiaries of those parents but they are not them.

Ah yes that was the other Halo game. Halo 5 just had a shit campaign. But still an 85 score. That's impressive, isn't it? Oh if it were Nintendo you would be all over that Master Chief collection wouldn't you?
Don't look at the user scores because they speak against you. A thousand users have been paid for. By Nintendo none the less, right? Because their user scores tend to be in the ballpark of their top games.
Dynamite, you got some issues.

@dynamitecop: I'm sorry man, it's too late to deal with this illogical thinking.

I don't look at user scores that are unverified owners, anyone who would take those seriously whether it be in a positive or negative light is a damn fool.

You have absolutely zero verification of play or ownership, it's worthless information.

P.S. Stop talking to me, you're wasting my time with your illogical horse shit.

So in other words you have nothing further to add because you're incapable of responding to that? That's the way things work in the business world sonny!

I figured as much.

Sure. Have a good day. <3

?

no

developing....producing. You're mixing things up here.

Are you just arguing because you can ?

I make no distinction between Sony and studios they own because it is a stupid distinction to make. Should we be asking what films has Sony developed or what electronic devices and/or technology they have manufactured. In the end it is all Sony. Stupid discussion.

You making no distinction is irrelevant, frankly at this point you're taking this discussion to borderline delusion, because without a distinction they would all be "Sony", and they're not, they're acquired subsidiaries with distinctions, their own company, company name, logo's, employees etc...

You really are arguing simply to argue right now... I think it's more so that you can't even list a single game deverloped by Sony or a Sony created studio so you're dragging this off into some convoluted tangent when it's such a simple discussion.

In the real world that's not how it works... Seriously.

Your logic =

GOG developed The Witcher 3 and Bioware developed the first Witcher game.

...

I actually have one in mind that would fit this narrow interpretation, but I'm not going to indulge this.

Yeah, Playstation brand was built on the backs of 3rd parties for sure. Final Fantasy, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, Castlevania etc. are the games that put Playstation on the map. Nothing wrong with that really, but it does suck that unlike Nintendo they weren't spending their early years cultivating a stable of strong IPs. Now that 3rd party exclusives are so rare it really shows.

Still they've had some good 1st party stuff. Twisted Metal was pretty cool back in the day. I liked Ico and SotC a lot. Gran Turismo was a damn good series for a while. It hasn't been all bad, but yeah they're no Nintendo and they never will be.

WTF are you even talking about? I'm talking one about one corporation that handles game development and publishing through it subsidiaries. Sony Interactive Entertainment is the publisher and collection of the studios that comprise Sony Worldwide Studios are developers. Both own by Sony. Bioware and GOG share no common ground.

Twisted Metal was third party :/

You're not going to indulge this? Are you serious lol... It's a simple question that you've lost your mind over, it's of the most rudimentary form possible, what games has Sony developed themselves?

Not acquired third party developers, their own in house teams or studios in which they have created... simple...

Pfft haha, well there goes that. Shit.

@brah4ever:

I have always thought Nintendo is better (which is why I've been a fan and buy the Big N machines at launch from NES till Wii U) and I don't think Sony has the best 1st party...BUT to claim that Sony has never made a classic EVER? That's just not true.

I'll even remove contracted 2nd party developers that made / helped 1st party titles (like Sony co-developed Demon's Souls / Bloodborne, Champions of Norrath games, or Insomniac's Ratchet/Resistance games), leaving Sony only developed games:

1. Legends of Dragoon,
2. Shadow of the Colossus,
3. ICO,
4. God of War 1-3,
5. Gran Turismo 1-4 (especially 3),
6. Uncharted 2-4,
7. Tearaway
8. LittleBigPlanet 1-2
9. The Last of Us,
10. Sly Cooper 1-3,
11. Jak & Daxter 1-3,
12. InFamous 1-3,
13. Twisted Metal Black,
14. War of the Monsters,
15. Syphon Filter 1-3,
16. Siren,
17. Puppeteer,
18. Singstar,
19. Ape Escape,
20. Warhawk,
21. MLB: The Show,
22. LocoRoco,
23. Killzone 2/3,
24. Patapon,

Say what you will about some of these, they were rated highly and you can't deny there is fantastic games according to critics and people that played these games, even if you never played many of these games yourself. Remember, someone could claim Nintendo is terrible while avoiding playing their Mario/Metroid Prime/Zelda titles and ignoring the scores and fans. Even Nintendo has outsourced Zelda, Metroid, Starfox, and Mario in the past.

I'm not comparing any other publisher (Activision/EA/Ubisoft/Nintendo, etc), nor am I suggesting the power of 3rd party games didn't build the PS brand as well (it certainly did from Resident Evil to Metal Gear Solid to Street Fighter to Final Fantasy)...but I'm simply pointing out that some of these Sony games above are considered classics by millions of fans and many professional critics. I covered a wide range of generations as well.

I didn't even bother listing all the highly rated Sony developed games, just whatever came to mind quickly. It's one thing to simply say you don't like these games which is subjective and could be argued against any series from Starcraft to Mario to The Last of Us to Halo. Objectively Sony have put out some classics, no doubt about it. Whether you like them or not is subjective. To each their own.

Here's a small list of internal games from Sony (pretending their bought studios from years ago suddenly don't count):

1. Gran Turismo 1-4,
2. Puppeteer,
3. Everquest,
4. God of War 1-3,
5. Siren,
6. Twisted Metal Black,
7. Shadow of the Colossus,
8. Legend of Dragoon,
9. Singstar series,
10. ICO,
11. Ape Escape 1-3,
12. War of the Monsters,
13. Planetside 1-2,
14. MLB: The Show SERIES and more above should be looked at as well.

Never say never when it comes to talking about something subjective like 'classic' and don't confuse classic with popular, it's not always the same.

I'm done with silly topic, but here you go. Gran Turismo by Polyphony Digital which was founded by Sony in 1998. That's a HUGE one. Good night. Still a silly discussion.

They do... based on your approach. Oh and that means EA developed The Witcher right ? Since Bioware's parent company is EA and CD Projekt used their tech...

Owning and DEVELOPING.....NOT THE SAME.

really? there was one company that matched Nintendo toe to toe in late 80s-all through the 90s: SEGA. infact, one could argue SEGA is the only third party dev and publisher who toughed out the Wii U failure

more ontopic: Sony has a goo reputation with developers, so they don't need to make games so much as contact any number of AAA Devs. M$ on the other hand has a horrid reputation (look up Bungie v Microsoft over Halo) so they NEED to make games otherwise they have none.

+1

No, it's not. Giving money to developer isn't called developing games, it's called financing, as much as you'd backup some kickstarter or greenlight game, you don't help a developer studio to develop the game by giving ideas, creating 3D art / levels or making sounds/music for them, you only give them money so they keep doing what they do.

Twisted Metal was third party, LittleBigPlanet was third party, Syphon Filter was third party, Journey is third party, Resogun is third party, PaRappa The Rapper is third party, Sly Cooper is third party, Infamous was third party, Super Stardust is third party, Um Jammer Lammy is third party...

Lemmings are approaching gigantic proportions of butthurted madness as of late. I don't think their logical capacities are working anymore.

By the way Sony might be behind Nintendo in that regard but at least it doesn't destroy studios like MS. TLHBO.

Damn... why you gotta burn him with those facts man??? He thought he had you, and you just come in with a flame thrower an burn everything....

Has Sony ever been a developer? Have any games been developed inside Sony studios?

I'm pretty sure the majority of so called 1st party games are developed my studios that are OWNED by Sony. In fact, the same can be said for many Nintendo games too. Sony, Nintendo and MS are hardware developers, where they outsource software development to other tech houses. Sega was one of the few that actually developed in house. I think GOW 4 has been developed by a studio specifically created by MS.

So, now, looking at games made by Sony owned studios...theres a heck of a lot of great ones, heck, in the PS2 era they actually made better platformers than Nintendo. Now that's saying something.

@acp_45: Naughty Dog employees are Sony employees. Whatever they develop is a Sony development.

Naughty Dog is a Sony owned company, Naughty Dog employees are employed by Naughty Dog, and games developed by them are developed by Naughty Dog... You need to learn business separation...

You mean, Second party as these are all 1st party Sony games and some were developed by a second party working on a 1st party IP...but in this game we are eliminating second party so even then in the case of Twisted Metal we have a case.

While TM was originally from SingleTrac who were working for Sony, the series was taken over by internal 989 studios who dropped the ball, but then later for the PS2 the amazing Twisted Metal: Black released to high metascores and fan acclaim which was an internally developed game from Incognito Entertainment which was formed as a Sony Computer Entertainment studio day one, and was founded in May 1999 by a group of former SingleTrac employees much like The Coalition and 343 took the reigns from EPIC and Bungie.

The rest you didn't mention should be pointed out like:

1. Gran Turismo 1-4,
2. Puppeteer,
3. Everquest,
4. God of War 1-3,
5. Siren,
6. Twisted Metal Black,
7. Shadow of the Colossus,
8. Legend of Dragoon,
9. Singstar series,
10. ICO,
11. Ape Escape 1-3,
12. War of the Monsters,
13. Planetside 1-2,
14. MLB: The Show SERIES and more above should be looked at as well.

I have a Sony game on SNES before they even created the Playstation.

I would also highlight:

The rest you didn't mention should be pointed out like Gran Turismo 1-4, Journey, God of War 1-3, Twisted Metal Black, Shadow of the Colossus, Legend of Dragoon, ICO, Ape Escape, War of the Monsters, MLB: The Show and more above should be looked at as well.

They're all third party developers, they're third party games in all reality whether the platform manufacturer owns the IP or not, and most of those games were not owned by Sony, though the franchises were later acquired, they're not games developed by any facet of Sony.

"Second party" is an invented term used as a descriptor of differentiation.

Also Journey is a third party developed game...

Damn, he missed a lot of facts man!!! :P

BTW: Welcome to SW with your brand new hours old account and I was your sixth post! It's nice to have a new account and jump right in whilst loving that Dreamcast!

It's a shame his 'flame thrower' ran out so soon as he didn't cover all my answers. Dang!

For the record, I didn't think anything about him...I was never even was talking to him as I quoted the TC, but he missed a bunch (20+) of games like:

1. Gran Turismo 1-4,
2. Puppeteer,
3. Everquest,
4. God of War 1-3,
5. Siren,
6. Twisted Metal Black,
7. Shadow of the Colossus,
8. Legend of Dragoon,
9. Singstar series,
10. ICO,
11. Ape Escape 1-3,
12. War of the Monsters,
13. Planetside 1-2,
14. MLB: The Show SERIES and more above should be looked at as well.

Look. I don't expect you to admit it. Honestly, this is pretty simple stuff. So I'll stop and spare you the embarassment.

All those games were owned by Sony and were 1st party products that Sony paid for and later may have acquired the studio, but either way, moving on...eliminating Journey and playing this 'game':

Removing Journey, there is 20+ games in a series or by it's lonesome up there directly developed by Sony.

1. Gran Turismo 1-4,
2. Puppeteer,
3. Everquest,
4. God of War 1-3,
5. Siren,
6. Twisted Metal Black,
7. Shadow of the Colossus,
8. Legend of Dragoon,
9. Singstar series,
10. ICO,
11. Ape Escape 1-3,
12. War of the Monsters,
13. Planetside 1-2,
14. MLB: The Show SERIES and more above should be looked at as well.

Were they developed by Sony? The answer is no, it's as simple as that.

They're third party developed games...

WTF....lol

When you are making game and you are a 3rd party and you make an exclusive game that is being founded by the publisher that company is acting like a second party is not owned by sony but make games which sony pay for.

This include publishing as well,just like remedy has being a second party for MS for a long time and so was Insomniac.

Also the fact that some of this studios were not owned by sony back then doesn't mean the game ideas didn't came from sony...

In late 1997, a producer from Sony's 989 Studios approached Eidetic with a one-page synopsis for an action espionage thriller that would be a response to the highly successful GoldenEye 007.^[2] The synopsis was entitled "Syphon Filter" which had no meaning and it contained no story and characters, but included ideas for the setting and gameplay mechanics. Sony trusted Eidetic with the project despite Bubsy 3D's poor reception because the team had experience with developing for the PlayStation and an engine that could run the game.^[1] For the development of Syphon Filter, Eidetic recruited five more employees.

Case in point Syphon Filter idea came from a producer of sony 989 studios and Eidetic was chosen to make and insert its own ideas on the game as well.

Even when playing this 'game' and the 'fast and loose SW rules' removing a bunch of Sony commissioned and Sony owned IPs, I'm here to answer the TC's claim. I don't want to play semantics, just answer the claim and see if his claim has merit. That's it. In that respect, I've played along removing studios Sony currently owns which removed Sony 1st party games (same rules I applied here on other publishers would come as quite a shock), but even then there is a list below for him to look over.

brah4ever said:

the quality of Sony's own games.

Sony has never truley made a classic , like ever.

What made their past consoles good were the 3rd party games most which were exclusive (especially in the PS1/2 days), not Sony's games themselves.

While this doesn't represent all of them, here is 20+ games in a series or by it's lonesome up there directly developed by Sony.

1. Gran Turismo 1-4,
2. Puppeteer,
3. Everquest,
4. God of War 1-3,
5. Siren,
6. Twisted Metal Black,
7. Shadow of the Colossus,
8. Legend of Dragoon,
9. Singstar series,
10. ICO,
11. Ape Escape 1-3,
12. War of the Monsters,
13. Planetside 1-2,
14. MLB: The Show SERIES and more above should be looked at as well.

@acp_45: Embarrassment my ass. You guys look foolish trying to argue that Sony doesn't get credit for its employees work. Only on System Wars would some shit like this be taken seriously. Can't say anything about Sony first party production so you all go with this ridiculous reach.

Nintendo>>>>Sony>>>>>>>>>Microsoft in that order and magnitude.

"Second Party" isn't something that actually exists, it's an industry coined term used as a descriptor for third party developers who develop hardware manufacturers owned IP's under contract, this is called sub-contracting. "Second Party" is just easier to swallow and it gives context for the development of this type of third party game.

It doesn't matter who owns the IP or who comes up with it, it matters who developed it, and if it's developed by an independent third party, it's a third party game.

Ugh I happen to like shooters as well but I also do enjoy myself some Nintendo excursive gameplay like Metroid Primes and so much more from Nintendo and just as well from both Sony/MS.

BULLSHIT.....

Resistance is OWNED BY SONY PAID BY SONY AND make by a independent developer,which are many time refer to as second party,while the term is made up it has being use to describe developers like Insomniac which are indies yes they are as indi developers are not consider indie because they are small is because their status as independent just like remedy.

Sun Set Over drive is an Insomniac game,where they have a deal with MS but the game is owned by them,Resistance is a Sony owned IP created by a developer not owned by sony.

You can continue your river of tears Sony >>>>>> MS as game developer.

This isn't about Sony and Microsoft, this is a topic about Sony only so stay on point.

You can call it a first party owned IP, you can called it a third party developed game, but you can't call it a first party game, because it's not.

First party games are owned and developed by the platform manufacturer or their owned studios.

@brah4ever:

The only franchises worth while in Nintendo are Metroid and Star Fox and Nintendo treats them like shit! I loved the Metroid Prime series but where the **** did it go?!

Uncharted

Twisted Metal

Last of Us

God of War

LittleBigPlanet

TearaWay

Gravity Rush

Kill Zone

Ratchet and Clank

Sony has great 1st party games too! If you don't count them in just because other developers made it then you're not really being fair here. Sony OWNS these games just as much as Microsoft owns Halo and Gears of War even though Microsoft didn't make them themselves.

Nintendo is the only company that makes games in house but even they have other developers helping out too like Retro Studios and Tecmo. Nintendo DIDN'T make Metroid Prime, Retro Studios did. Nintendo DOESN'T make Donkey Kong Country, Retro Studios does. Or are we just gonna pretend to ignore that too?

The only quality developer they have is Naughty Dog.

The real irony in that is that the majority of Sony's in house developed games are PC exclusives, although they did make a handful of games for PSP and PS3

SoE Games list

Thank you for actually grasping what I've been saying and giving me a simple reply, these cows have turned this thread into a total disaster.

?? You don't even know what you were arguing about. I never argued about Sony not getting credit. You're stripping yourself and you clearly don't even know why ? You bascially just spouted nonsense that had nothing to do with our initial discussion. Credit goes to Sony. They are a parent company....They get credit all right. Gosh.. WTF.

So its okay for MS/Nintendo to have 3rd or 2nd party devs making games but when its sony its wrong. But carry on acting like a fucking victim when things don't go your way. Posters did give you replies your just ignoring them because it doesn't suit argument.

http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Second_party_developers

http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Developers lot's of 3rd devs here that made great games for both the nes/snes/n64 like rare.