The New Tactic: "PC Gaming is represented by Facebook"

You however, go as far as saying that PC gamers are more intelligent than console gamers because of their hardware.

gamecubepad

No, I have made no comments regarding intelligence. I said being a PC gamer inherently means you are more likely to have a grasp of technical knowledge, where as consoles act as a deterrent to expanding your technical knowledge; because it is a convenience based system.

I've argued PC gamers are more likely to be technically literate than console gamers, not more intelligent.

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

You however, go as far as saying that PC gamers are more intelligent than console gamers because of their hardware.

AnnoyedDragon

No, I have made no comments regarding intelligence. I said being a PC gamer inherently means you are more likely to have a grasp of technical knowledge, where as consoles act as a deterrent to expanding your technical knowledge; because it is a convenience based system.

I've argued PC gamers are more likely to be technically literate than console gamers, not more intelligent.

Fair enough. I still don't agree with your sentiment that...

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

Anybody can buy a PC that can play games at any level. No base knowledge required. Even when building your own rig, or upgrading, it's as simple as grabbing the PC game box and reading the requirements. Don't act like consoles have never required hardware upgrades.

So then, only elitist with uber hardware are true PC gamers? No. In fact, according to ronvelcia's chart, PC as a system has experienced more success with "casual" gaming than any console. I know you're not directing these comments at console-only gamers, since you said that you assume they have a PC. So if they have a PC, then they can play PC games. Thus, back to my big truck syndrome comments.

36 People were born yesterday.

Fair enough. I still don't agree with your sentiment that...

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

Anybody can buy a PC that can play games at any level. No base knowledge required. Even when building your own rig, or upgrading, it's as simple as grabbing the PC game box and reading the requirements. Don't act like consoles have never required hardware upgrades.

gamecubepad

Whose more likely to understand the inner workings of a car? Someone who tinkers in their garage, and actually built their own car from components they purchased. Or someone who drops off their car at a mechanic every time they encounter a problem? It isn't elitist to recognise when someones chosen approach to driving, or gaming in this case, results in greater knowledge on a subject.

And I am going to tell you what I told Clone. Just because the information is readily available, is not evidence of someone having that knowledge. Someone doesn't mystically understand the inner workings of a car, just because the information is available. They have to actively learn it, and the nature of PC gaming is more likely to encourage that than console gaming.

Tell me with a straight face that a console encourages the same technical learning as a modular platform like PC. Where people have to understand the meaning of the figures on a component; when pricing up their next upgrade. Consoles, at least recent years consoles, were designed for people who don't want to bother with any of that. They were made as plug and play gaming devices, no technical knowledge required.

So then, only elitist with uber hardware are true PC gamers? No. In fact, according to ronvelcia's chart, PC as a system has experienced more success with "casual" gaming than any console. I know you're not directing these comments at console-only gamers, since you said that you assume they have a PC. So if they have a PC, then they can play PC games. Thus, back to my big truck syndrome comments.

gamecubepad

I feel no need to defend arguments I didn't make.

Are you crazy?

I, and many other people, hate facebook games.

PC gaming better be more than just facebook, or I'll never get my Roller coaster tycoon 4 :cry: (I dont know about others, but I really love that game, yeah Im a "tycoon games lover") I probably used a bad example imo.

Rather than continuing this foolishness of bunching facebook gamers with PC gamers, why dont we give them their own little catigory? Lets give them their own swarrior name even! They will be known as,"Worms" taken from "book worm" yeah I knew you would see what I did there.

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

AnnoyedDragon

This statement is completely erroneous. The typical PC gamers are not playing on custom built, overclocked rigs. They're on pre-builts and laptops; playing games like The Sims, WoW, and Farm/Cityville. Egg heads are the minority. Your knowledge is not representative or your average PC gamer. You do not represent PC gaming as a whole, just like the "consolites" that you so vehemently oppose do not represent console gaming as a whole. You're just as wrong as they are. You are the epitome of what you oppose.

So it all comes full cirlce to what I said earlier. If you're limiting yourself to certain types of gaming because of hardware, or the stereotypes of it's users, then you're doing it wrong.

This statement is completely erroneous. The typical PC gamers are not playing on custom built, overclocked rigs. They're on pre-builts and laptops; playing games like The Sims, WoW, and Farm/Cityville. Egg heads are the minority. Your knowledge is not representative or your average PC gamer. You do not represent PC gaming as a whole, just like the "consolites" that you so vehemently oppose do not represent console gaming as a whole. You're just as wrong as they are. You are the epitome of what you oppose.

So it all comes full cirlce to what I said earlier. If you're limiting yourself to certain types of gaming because of hardware, or the stereotypes of it's users, then you're doing it wrong.

gamecubepad

So rather than tackle my above response, you dig up a older comment and criticise that instead? You decide to declare, as if fact, that the "real" PC gamers are the ones playing on overpriced brand name machines to run WoW. Why? Because you say so...

Are you trying to live up to the stereotype I described earlier to Clone? Is there any particular reason I should continue talking to you?

Whose more likely to understand the inner workings of a car? Someone who tinkers in their garage, and actually built their own car from components they purchased. Or someone who drops off their car at a mechanic every time they encounter a problem? It isn't elitist to recognise when someones chosen approach to driving, or gaming in this case, results in greater knowledge on a subject.

And I am going to tell you what I told Clone. Just because the information is readily available, is not evidence of someone having that knowledge. Someone doesn't mystically understand the inner workings of a car, just because the information is available. They have to actively learn it, and the nature of PC gaming is more likely to encourage that than console gaming.

Tell me with a straight face that a console encourages the same technical learning as a modular platform like PC. Where people have to understand the meaning of the figures on a component; when pricing up their next upgrade. Consoles, at least recent years consoles, were designed for people who don't want to bother with any of that. They were made as plug and play gaming devices, no technical knowledge required.

AnnoyedDragon

This statement is completely erroneous.

gamecubepad

Not necessarily. If said hypothetical PC gamer is playing, say, the types of games in your sig, or the average console favorite like Black Ops, chances are they have some degree of technical knowledge. Obviously there are those that use both platforms casually.

No, that was the statement that started this whole dialogue. You're the one drifting off topic.

Let's go over it again...

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

AnnoyedDragon

Now these are old numbers, but even still you can see that Casual Portals and Facebook games make up $5.2bn compared to $2.5bn for Steam/D2D type games. This is excluding the free to play aspect of games like Farmville, and social/casual MMOs like WoW. It's easy to see what types of games the "typical" PC gamer is playing.

Trust me when I say that most PC gamers are on prebuilts and laptops, playing casual games. I got you now. Why don't you stop skirting the original argument and fess up to your erroneous claims about "typical users".

*edit* Friendly reminder here...

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

So then, only elitist with uber hardware are true PC gamers? No. In fact, according to ronvelcia's chart, PC as a system has experienced more success with "casual" gaming than any console. I know you're not directing these comments at console-only gamers, since you said that you assume they have a PC. So if they have a PC, then they can play PC games. Thus, back to my big truck syndrome comments.

AnnoyedDragon

I feel no need to defend arguments I didn't make.

snip

ianuilliam

You are arguing that only a enthusiast minorty upgrade their PC systems. While at the same time, talk about there being console gamers who repair their own systems. You want people to believe a system that was DESIGNED to be modular and upgradable, that only a minority actually do it. But a system that isn't supposed to be opened up by any consumer, that is more common than people think.

Sure... I'm going over here.

No, that was the statement that started this whole dialogue. You're the one drifting off topic.

gamecubepad

Let's try to at least pretend there is some sort of consistency to this debate. Not criticise a comment, ignore my response, and criticise the same comment again. Then of course blame me for going off topic after I criticised you for doing this.

Now these are old numbers, but even still you can see that Casual Portals and Facebook games make up $5.2bn compared to $2.5bn (why not include box copies?) for Steam/D2D type games. This is excluding the free to play aspect of games like Farmville, and social/casual MMOs like WoW. It's easy to see what types of games the "typical" PC gamer is playing.

Trust me when I say that most PC gamers are on prebuilts and laptops, playing casual games. I got you now. Why don't you stop skirting the original argument and fess up to your erroneous claims about "typical users".

gamecubepad

You got me now? This isn't a game were we squabble over who gets to declare ownage. This is a discussion as to what the truth is, try to keep that as a priority please. Like your frequent comments about pre-builts, why don't you just go to a PC gaming forum and ask? You keep stating what PC gamers do on their behalf, and you don't even like them apparently.

Do I have to go over how sales scale upward as audiences broaden? Should I judge 360 by how many motion control sport games they sell? Must I direct you to my comments on page two, where I say PC is both everything and nothing? I said it earlier, trying to categorize PC gaming is a fundamental mistake many people on the console side of gaming make. You cannot categorize a free market platform as being any one particular thing, because EVERYONE is making stuff for it.

Each segment of that chart is part of PC gaming, part, it doesn't define it.

Regardless, I'm out of time. I have to log for the night, so if this conversation is to continue; it will have to be tomorrow. I'm in England by the way.

This is a discussion as to what the truth is

AnnoyedDragon

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

:roll:

The truth is that the "typical" PC gamer is not more knowledgeable than the typical console gamer. The truth is that the typical PC gamer is playing casual games. The truth is that Farmville regularly hits 80 million users in a week, and that the best selling and most profitable games on PC are The Sims and WoW. So, what's your "typical" PC gamer, one of the million or so people who mod Crysis, or one of the 80 million people playing Farmville. What better fits the term "typical"?

You cannot categorize a free market platform as being any one particular thing, because EVERYONE is making stuff for it.

AnnoyedDragon

You mean like you just did in the statement we're disputing.

If you want to shake the elitist label, I would suggest you stop generalizing 100s of millions of people with no data to back you up.

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

This is a discussion as to what the truth is

gamecubepad

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

:roll:

The truth is that the "typical" PC gamer is not more knowledgeable than the typical console gamer. The truth is that the typical PC gamer is playing casual games. The truth is that Farmville regularly hits 80 million users in a week, and that the best selling and most profitable games on PC are The Sims and WoW. So, what's your "typical" PC gamer, one of the million or so people who mod Crysis, or one of the 80 million people playing Farmville. What better fits the term "typical"?

You cannot categorize a free market platform as being any one particular thing, because EVERYONE is making stuff for it.

AnnoyedDragon

You mean like you just did in the statement we're disputing.

If you want to shake the elitist label, I would suggest you stop generalizing 100s of millions of people with no data to back you up.

Facebook games are the most exciting ones on PC since Valve stopped making games.

So yea.

[QUOTE="ianuilliam"]

snip

AnnoyedDragon

You are arguing that only a enthusiast minorty upgrade their PC systems. While at the same time, talk about there being console gamers who repair their own systems. You want people to believe a system that was DESIGNED to be modular and upgradable, that only a minority actually do it. But a system that isn't supposed to be opened up by any consumer, that is more common than people think.

Sure... I'm going over here.

"the typical console gamer is less knowledgeable than the typical PC gamer, because PC gaming encourages learning; where as console gaming does not."

The truth is that the "typical" PC gamer is not more knowledgeable than the typical console gamer. The truth is that the typical PC gamer is playing casual games. The truth is that Farmville regularly hits 80 million users in a week, and that the best selling and most profitable games on PC are The Sims and WoW. So, what's your "typical" PC gamer, one of the million or so people who mod Crysis, or one of the 80 million people playing Farmville. What better fits the term "typical"?

You mean like you just did in the statement we're disputing.

If you want to shake the elitist label, I would suggest you stop generalizing 100s of millions of people with no data to back you up.

gamecubepad

You keep coming back to that comment time and time again.

I am not going to apologise for telling the truth, just because people like you don't like it. You think the existence of a casual market and shelf desktop PCs disproves the claim? We are talking about a platform DESIGNED to be modular and upgradable, and another which is not. That alone, says PC gamers are more likely to understand the components of a computer than a console gamer. Because unlike consoles, there is a reason for PC gamers to understand what is going on under the hood.

No rationalizations on your part are going to change that, though I am sure you will keep trying. It doesn't matter if something is the truth in here, if people don't like it, they will keep trying to rationalize it away. That's what I have come to expect from the console biased in SW. It doesn't matter if they don't have enough ram, they will make it work "somehow" and "somehow" nothing will be lost in the process...

And don't forget, you're a elitist if you don't believe in this reality defying feat.

snip

ianuilliam

I am not interested in your lubricious arguments with only your claims as its foundations. There is no factual basis to them, they are just bizarre.

The likely is unlikely, and the unlikely is likely. Just because you live in France; doesn't mean you are more likely to learn French. And just because you live in England; doesn't mean you aren't more likely to learn French than a Frenchman.

It's backwards-land with you.

You keep coming back to that comment time and time again.

I am not going to apologise for telling the truth, just because people like you don't like it. You think the existence of a casual market and shelf desktop PCs disproves the claim?

AnnoyedDragon

I come back to that comment because it's the crux of the beef I have with you. You simply generalize 100s of millions of people based your own personal experience.

You want the truth, backed by cold, hard facts. The "typical" PC gamer is a casual. Playing on pre-builts and laptops. Not an elitist who OC's their hardware and mods their games. Stop acting like PC gamers are some ascended race of gamer.

So if your comment was something to the effect of, "Gamers who build their own rigs probably have more knowledge about hardware than gamers who don't", I would say you're probably right. But no, you gotta act like any PC gamer knows more than any console gamer, and that the two are mutually exclusive.

Tell me, given your elitist attitude and use of sweeping generalizations, is there any reason I should continue this discussion.(sound familiar?);)

Mostr of PC gamers on SW have consolephobia NWA90s

I am not interested in your lubricious arguments with only your claims as its foundations. There is no factual basis to them, they are just bizarre.

The likely is unlikely, and the unlikely is likely. Just because you live in France; doesn't mean you are more likely to learn French. And just because you live in England; doesn't mean you aren't more likely to learn French than a Frenchman.

It's backwards-land with you.

AnnoyedDragon

Obviously you are only skimming what you want to hear out of what other people are saying. I'm not claiming console users are more likely to be technically apt than pc gamers. I AM claiming that there's no evidence of the reverse, either. Your language analogy is far more ludicrous than anything I've said in this dialog. PC gamers = Frenchmen and knowing how to build a pc = speaking French? Ok, sure. 100% of pc gamers can build and repair a pc. That's why companies like Best Buy can charge absolutely stupid amounts to come to people's homes and plug in a router, or set-up your computer for you, and why computer repair businesses pop up all over the place.

I come back to that comment because it's the crux of the beef I have with you. You simply generalize 100s of millions of people based your own personal experience.

You want the truth, backed by cold, hard facts. The "typical" PC gamer is a casual. Playing on pre-builts and laptops. Not an elitist who OC's their hardware and mods their games. Stop acting like PC gamers are some ascended race of gamer.

So if your comment was something to the effect of, "Gamers who build their own rigs probably have more knowledge about hardware than gamers who don't", I would say you're probably right. But no, you gotta act like any PC gamer knows more than any console gamer, and that the two are mutually exclusive.

gamecubepad

The problem is, that IS my argument. And unlike what you suggest here, you didn't accept it.

Instead you took comments regarding technical knowledge, and accused me of claiming PC gamers are more intelligent than console gamers. Instead you took comments regarding "typical" console gamers, and spinned me as saying it as being all console gamers, despite me saying there are exceptions in the same post. You read a analogy about someone building a car knowing more about cars than someone who didn't, and decided to use the casual segment of PC gaming who DON'T build their own PCs; as a counter argument to "PC builders" having that knowledge.

Like I have come to expect from the console biased, you are also selectively blind. Like people who use cross platform development as evidence that PC is dying, ignoring that cross platform development is a two way street. You are ignoring the simple, and basic, knowledge that the casual audience is larger than the mainstream/hardcore audiences on every platform. They are called a broader audience for a reason, it is why the Wii has sold so well; and Microsoft/Sony are falling over themselves to tap them. There is a lot of money to be made over there, because the audience is large. Yet, here now, you abuse the size of the casual audience; to argue they make up the majority of PC gaming. When in reality, they make up the majority of every audience, and cannot be used to argue what the "core" audience is like.

You have to exaggerate and misrepresent my arguments, because that's the only way you can justify rejecting them. And you know what? I admit I made a mistake with the wording of that comment, the meaning of which I elaborated on MANY TIMES throughout this discussion. I have to watch my wording carefully, because there are always opportunists such as yourself, who has gone as far as to customize their sig to mock PC gamers, looking for another excuse to declare victimization by the terrible elitist PC gamers.

No matter how many times I elabourate on the meaning of that post, you will always run to me wording it badly, because criticising that is easier than countering my actual responses made pages later.

Tell me, given your elitist attitude and use of sweeping generalizations, is there any reason I should continue this discussion.(sound familiar?);)

gamecubepad

Given what I said above, what incentive do I have to continue talking to you?

-edit

And ianuilliam, talking to one person misrepresenting my arguments is enough; thank you very much. I am not saying all PC gamers are technically literate, and all console gamers are technically illiterate. I am saying that the typical PC gamer, because of the intrinsic nature of the platform, are more likely to be tech literate than the typical console gamer. You downplaying PC gamer knowledge, while exaggerating console gamer knowledge, deters me from wanting any in depth debate with you.

I don't even have a facebook account... SAGE_OF_FIRE

[QUOTE="gamecubepad"]

I come back to that comment because it's the crux of the beef I have with you. You simply generalize 100s of millions of people based your own personal experience.

You want the truth, backed by cold, hard facts. The "typical" PC gamer is a casual. Playing on pre-builts and laptops. Not an elitist who OC's their hardware and mods their games. Stop acting like PC gamers are some ascended race of gamer.

So if your comment was something to the effect of, "Gamers who build their own rigs probably have more knowledge about hardware than gamers who don't", I would say you're probably right. But no, you gotta act like any PC gamer knows more than any console gamer, and that the two are mutually exclusive.

AnnoyedDragon

The problem is, that IS my argument. And unlike what you suggest here, you didn't accept it.

Instead you took comments regarding technical knowledge, and accused me of claiming PC gamers are more intelligent than console gamers. Instead you took comments regarding "typical" console gamers, and spinned me as saying it as being all console gamers, despite me saying there are exceptions in the same post. You read a analogy about someone building a car knowing more about cars than someone who didn't, and decided to use the casual segment of PC gaming who DON'T build their own PCs; as a counter argument to "PC builders" having that knowledge.

Like I have come to expect from the console biased, you are also selectively blind. Like people who use cross platform development as evidence that PC is dying, ignoring that cross platform development is a two way street. You are ignoring the simple, and basic, knowledge that the casual audience is larger than the mainstream/hardcore audiences on every platform. They are called a broader audience for a reason, it is why the Wii has sold so well; and Microsoft/Sony are falling over themselves to tap them. There is a lot of money to be made over there, because the audience is large. Yet, here now, you abuse the size of the casual audience; to argue they make up the majority of PC gaming. When in reality, they make up the majority of every audience, and cannot be used to argue what the "core" audience is like.

You have to exaggerate and misrepresent my arguments, because that's the only way you can justify rejecting them. And you know what? I admit I made a mistake with the wording of that comment, the meaning of which I elaborated on MANY TIMES throughout this discussion. I have to watch my wording carefully, because there are always opportunists such as yourself, who has gone as far as to customize their sig to mock PC gamers, looking for another excuse to declare victimization by the terrible elitist PC gamers.

No matter how many times I elabourate on the meaning of that post, you will always run to me wording it badly, because criticising that is easier than countering my actual responses made pages later.

Tell me, given your elitist attitude and use of sweeping generalizations, is there any reason I should continue this discussion.(sound familiar?);)

gamecubepad

Given what I said above, what incentive do I have to continue talking to you?

-edit

And ianuilliam, talking to one person misrepresenting my arguments is enough; thank you very much. I am not saying all PC gamers are technically literate, and all console gamers are technically illiterate. I am saying that the typical PC gamer, because of the intrinsic nature of the platform, are more likely to be tech literate than the typical console gamer. You downplaying PC gamer knowledge, while exaggerating console gamer knowledge, deters me from wanting any in depth debate with you.

I'll not argue that the typical hardcore pc enthusiast who builds his own pc is more tech savvy than the typical console gamer. But that's not what you keep saying (even if it is what you mean). And if it is what you mean, it's hardly a fair comparison. The typical pc gamer is a member of the casual masses, and is not tech literate at all.

I've not been trying to downplay pc gamer knowledge while exagerating console gamer knowledge, I've been trying to make you understand that the technically knowledgable pc gamers are a small segment, and not representative of the majority (hell, you, as I assume a member of the technically proficient, ought to be taking it as a compliment, as I'm saying that you stand out above the average), but also that such a segment exists on consoles as well.

PC gaming is represented by $4,000 machines when console gamers talk cost and value.

PC gaming is represented by Facebook and Zynga when console gamers talk about games.

PC gaming is represented by piracy when console gamers talk about sales.

PC gaming is represented by multi-million dollar earning MMO's when console gamers talk about the "lack" of PC games.

PC gaming's representation changes depending on the argument console gamers are trying to make.

XaosII

PC gamers argument changes as well, thats what happens when you compare a system thats not really a system, its a platform derived of many different classes of systems...savagetwinkie

Yeah, it's called a open ended system.

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"]PC gamers argument changes as well, thats what happens when you compare a system thats not really a system, its a platform derived of many different classes of systems...Lucianu

Yeah, it's called a open ended system.

Honestly, lets not make being a PC gamer more than it is. I built my own rig and I am by no means an expert. Everyone I tell I built my own computer is baffled. "Howd you know how to do that?!?!" Really, its silly. This is not brain surgery or curing cancer. Any Jo Shmo with half a brain in his skull can figure this out.

yah no **** but its an arugment over power then all of a sudden people post pics of $4000 set ups, then if its an argument of cost/performance they'll pull out that $300-$500 systems that aren't going to produce the visuals of the last desktop, and then you take the max potential in every category, whats the point in argueing with a pc user when he NEVER acknowledges the trade offs he'll have to make when it comes to purchase a computer...savagetwinkie

Yeah, but 4000$ is to much over-kill. Only designers in companies working at highly graphically advanced programs would even need that. No gamer that knows anything about how this world works, is going to spend that much considering the fact that the same hardware will be far more cheaper in the very near future. A 700$ gaming PC is far more cost effective, and can play anything at high quality. 1000$ is already far enough.. It's 2011.

526$ is well enough to buy a gaming PC tower.. if you already have a decent monitor, which most do.. I guy i know bought one yesterday.

I guess the reason me and gamecubepad are taking exception is you keep saying the "typical pc gamer" is more knowledgable. Typically, the word typical is used to denote a specimen that represents the majority; synomynous with "average." The "typical" pc gamer is not the guy who builds his own pc.. The typical pc gamer is the massive casual market. Core pc titles sell a few million, maybe. ****-ville games on Facebook hit 80 million users a week.

I'll not argue that the typical hardcore pc enthusiast who builds his own pc is more tech savvy than the typical console gamer. But that's not what you keep saying (even if it is what you mean). And if it is what you mean, it's hardly a fair comparison. The typical pc gamer is a member of the casual masses, and is not tech literate at all.

I've not been trying to downplay pc gamer knowledge while exagerating console gamer knowledge, I've been trying to make you understand that the technically knowledgable pc gamers are a small segment, and not representative of the majority (hell, you, as I assume a member of the technically proficient, ought to be taking it as a compliment, as I'm saying that you stand out above the average), but also that such a segment exists on consoles as well.

ianuilliam

The typical PC gamer does have more technical knowledge than the typical console gamer, because seriously gaming on PC without any understanding of what goes on under the case; acts a handicap. Either costing them in their experience, or in their wallet. Modern consoles were specifically made for people who neither need, nor want, to understand what's going on under the hood.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Console gamers will often tell you this themselves, when listing why they prefer console to PC. Playing on consoles is not evidence of lacking knowledge, but the platform doesn't encourage its users to learn anything beyond its use. It should be common sense that a platform that rewards technical knowledge would result in more people on it being informed on those matters.

You two just keep trying to redefine what constitutes the "typical" gamer in favour of your console leaning point of view. You keep trying to spin the casual majority, and they are always the majority, as being the typical. There is a difference between the core user base, and the majority. If you tried to apply the same mentality to the console audience here in SW, they would take issue with it as well. There is a world of difference between statistical the typical gamer, and the core audience. There are probably more people playing Angry Birds on their mobiles than Halo on 360. But I doubt 360 gamers will find any significance in that, because at least when it comes to their platform, they will recognise the difference between casuals and mainstream gamers.

By your rational, all the merits listed by PC gamers regarding their platform are invalid, because if the casuals don't use it; then it isn't of value to the "majority" of PC gamers. PC gamers list modding as a significant perk of the platform, but whoops! Chances are the casuals playing peggle don't mod, so modding doesn't count towards PC merits apparently...

Talk about petty anti PC rational, and probably the primary aim of such ridiculous arguments. Ignoring that casuals are the majority everything, only focus on PC, and use numbers to try to paint the entirety of PC gaming as being its casual segment. I expect nothing less from SW.

Honestly, lets not make being a PC gamer more than it is. I built my own rig and I am by no means an expert. Everyone I tell I built my own computer is baffled. "Howd you know how to do that?!?!" Really, its silly. This is not brain surgery or curing cancer. Any Jo Shmo with half a brain in his skull can figure this out.

h575309

The availability and accessibility of knowledge is not evidence of it being known by the majority I'm afraid. If it was, maybe we wouldn't get such nonsense arguments in SW.

Hell no. If PC gaming is about farmville/facebook, then the 360 is just a CoD machine lol. Of course the mainstream love both of these games, but there are millions of gamers who want other stuff and that makes up most of the games. PC gaming is whatever the hell I want it to be :P.

[QUOTE="NWA90s"]Mostr of PC gamers on SW have consolephobia Grawse

[QUOTE="Grawse"]

[QUOTE="NWA90s"]Mostr of PC gamers on SW have consolephobia SkyWard20

Stone Age. Before that is the-land-of-Atlantis age.

No. It's represented by it's history.

A consloe may be represented by what de manufacturer behind it deems as target consumers and the consumer mindset and expectations is based on that. PC is represented by it's history, The games that stood the test of time and that's what a PC gamer or someone who wants to get into PC gaming expects, not the bored office worker.

Take a look at GOG... that's what PC is represented by.

As time passes new games represent the PC. As Battlefield 1946, Battlefield 2 and Counter-Strike set the standard of online play, Supreme Commander and CoH for RTS, Sins for 4X, etc.

Hell no. If PC gaming is about farmville/facebook, then the 360 is just a CoD machine lol. Of course the mainstream love both of these games, but there are millions of gamers who want other stuff and that makes up most of the games. PC gaming is whatever the hell I want it to be :P.

NaveedLife

Farmville players can't be even classified as "casual". What kind of gaming is that? Playing online flash games.Crimsader

[QUOTE="ianuilliam"]

I guess the reason me and gamecubepad are taking exception is you keep saying the "typical pc gamer" is more knowledgable. Typically, the word typical is used to denote a specimen that represents the majority; synomynous with "average." The "typical" pc gamer is not the guy who builds his own pc.. The typical pc gamer is the massive casual market. Core pc titles sell a few million, maybe. ****-ville games on Facebook hit 80 million users a week.

I'll not argue that the typical hardcore pc enthusiast who builds his own pc is more tech savvy than the typical console gamer. But that's not what you keep saying (even if it is what you mean). And if it is what you mean, it's hardly a fair comparison. The typical pc gamer is a member of the casual masses, and is not tech literate at all.

I've not been trying to downplay pc gamer knowledge while exagerating console gamer knowledge, I've been trying to make you understand that the technically knowledgable pc gamers are a small segment, and not representative of the majority (hell, you, as I assume a member of the technically proficient, ought to be taking it as a compliment, as I'm saying that you stand out above the average), but also that such a segment exists on consoles as well.

AnnoyedDragon

The typical PC gamer does have more technical knowledge than the typical console gamer, because seriously gaming on PC without any understanding of what goes on under the case; acts a handicap. Either costing them in their experience, or in their wallet. Modern consoles were specifically made for people who neither need, nor want, to understand what's going on under the hood.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Console gamers will often tell you this themselves, when listing why they prefer console to PC. Playing on consoles is not evidence of lacking knowledge, but the platform doesn't encourage its users to learn anything beyond its use. It should be common sense that a platform that rewards technical knowledge would result in more people on it being informed on those matters.

You two just keep trying to redefine what constitutes the "typical" gamer in favour of your console leaning point of view. You keep trying to spin the casual majority, and they are always the majority, as being the typical. There is a difference between the core user base, and the majority. If you tried to apply the same mentality to the console audience here in SW, they would take issue with it as well. There is a world of difference between statistical the typical gamer, and the core audience. There are probably more people playing Angry Birds on their mobiles than Halo on 360. But I doubt 360 gamers will find any significance in that, because at least when it comes to their platform, they will recognise the difference between casuals and mainstream gamers.

By your rational, all the merits listed by PC gamers regarding their platform are invalid, because if the casuals don't use it; then it isn't of value to the "majority" of PC gamers. PC gamers list modding as a significant perk of the platform, but whoops! Chances are the casuals playing peggle don't mod, so modding doesn't count towards PC merits apparently...

Talk about petty anti PC rational, and probably the primary aim of such ridiculous arguments. Ignoring that casuals are the majority everything, only focus on PC, and use numbers to try to paint the entirety of PC gaming as being its casual segment. I expect nothing less from SW.

Honestly, lets not make being a PC gamer more than it is. I built my own rig and I am by no means an expert. Everyone I tell I built my own computer is baffled. "Howd you know how to do that?!?!" Really, its silly. This is not brain surgery or curing cancer. Any Jo Shmo with half a brain in his skull can figure this out.

h575309

The availability and accessibility of knowledge is not evidence of it being known by the majority I'm afraid. If it was, maybe we wouldn't get such nonsense arguments in SW.

I never ignored that casuals are the majority of everything. The one doing that is you. You say the typical pc gamer is more knowledgable than the typical console gamer, yet your definition of typical is, for pc users, the minority core audience, without even stopping to consider that consoles have that minority core audience as well.

ianuilliam

The core console audience is no different from the casual console audience; in regard to technical knowledge. On PC, what you can do on the platform scales with your knowledge. On consoles, there is no benefit to your experience from having additional knowledge, there is no learning incentive.

Here's a basic example from Crysis 1.

By learning to edit the engine config files, you can enable the graphical settings that are artificially locked in DX10; in DX9. An entire graphical setting becomes available to you, at better performance than in DX10, by understanding how to edit a config file.

That is a reward enabled by technical knowledge. What can a console gamer learn about tech, that they can apply to enhance their experience? They cannot get anywhere near the games files without breaking the law.

Consoles just don't have the same environment that encourages technical learning that PC does, and that's the truth. All this, is just people offended by this concept trying to rationalize it as not being the case.

To use myself, just because I prefer to game on a console doesn't mean I can't build a computer. Hell, even if I were to say "Consoles are better because I don't want to have to worry about hardware reqs or upgrading," that doesn't mean I don't have the technical knowledge... it means I just night not want to go buy new hardware 3-4 times over the course of the gaming generation.

ianuilliam

The majority of console gamers argue that "not having to mess with hardware" plays a significant role in their platform choice. You are a exception to the rule, the exception I referred to on page three of this thread, not a counter argument to my responses. I'm talking about the difference between the PC and console environment, and you keep going outside of this. You learned to build a computer independently from gaming on consoles, not because consoles somehow encouraged you to learn this.

You've offered nothing to back up your claim that pc gaming leads to greater knowledge other than an appeal to logic that it must be true, right? Pc gamers have to know this stuff because they have to read system reqs on the box! There's no way a mere mortal consolite could grasp the complexities of the universe or how to unscrew a case a slide a stick of ram into a slot. You are the very definition of pc elitism.

ianuilliam

Should I even humour this part of your post? It is full of exaggerations and downplay. I have offered plenty of reasonable arguments, you just don't like them; so try to make them out as being unreasonable.

I have to wonder. Just how many times do I essentially have to argue that a mechanic knows more about cars than the average Joe? Would you object to someone saying this? Would you take offense to someone DARING to suggest that a person who works with car components on a regular basis, would know more about them than someone who just drives a car?

This repetition and mental gymnastics is becoming tiring.

The core console audience is no different from the casual console audience; in regard to technical knowledge.

AnnoyedDragon

Except that, just like on pc, the core audience is made up, in large part, of males 18-35, a demographic that generally has, at the very least, a competent level of technical knowledge, and at the extremes, a very high level of technical knowledge. Regardless of what platform they prefer to game on.

The majority of console gamers argue that "not having to mess with hardware" plays a significant role in their platform choice.

AnnoyedDragon

Again, saying "not having to mess with hardware" doesn't in any way indicate ability or inability to mess with hardware.

Should I even humour this part of your post? It is full of exaggerations and downplay. I have offered plenty of reasonable arguments, you just don't like them; so try to make them out as being unreasonable.

I have to wonder. Just how many times do I essentially have to argue that a mechanic knows more about cars than the average Joe? Would you object to someone saying this? Would you take offense to someone DARING to suggest that a person who works with car components on a regular basis, would know more about them than someone who just drives a car?

This repetition and mental gymnastics is becoming tiring.

AnnoyedDragon

[QUOTE="ianuilliam"]

The core console audience is no different from the casual console audience; in regard to technical knowledge. On PC, what you can do on the platform scales with your knowledge. On consoles, there is no benefit to your experience from having additional knowledge, there is no learning incentive.

Here's a basic example from Crysis 1.

By learning to edit the engine config files, you can enable the graphical settings that are artificially locked in DX10; in DX9. An entire graphical setting becomes available to you, at better performance than in DX10, by understanding how to edit a config file.

That is a reward enabled by technical knowledge. What can a console gamer learn about tech, that they can apply to enhance their experience? They cannot get anywhere near the games files without breaking the law.

Consoles just don't have the same environment that encourages technical learning that PC does, and that's the truth. All this, is just people offended by this concept trying to rationalize it as not being the case.

[QUOTE="ianuilliam"]

To use myself, just because I prefer to game on a console doesn't mean I can't build a computer. Hell, even if I were to say "Consoles are better because I don't want to have to worry about hardware reqs or upgrading," that doesn't mean I don't have the technical knowledge... it means I just night not want to go buy new hardware 3-4 times over the course of the gaming generation.

AnnoyedDragon

The majority of console gamers argue that "not having to mess with hardware" plays a significant role in their platform choice. You are a exception to the rule, the exception I referred to on page three of this thread, not a counter argument to my responses. I'm talking about the difference between the PC and console environment, and you keep going outside of this. You learned to build a computer independently from gaming on consoles, not because consoles somehow encouraged you to learn this.

You've offered nothing to back up your claim that pc gaming leads to greater knowledge other than an appeal to logic that it must be true, right? Pc gamers have to know this stuff because they have to read system reqs on the box! There's no way a mere mortal consolite could grasp the complexities of the universe or how to unscrew a case a slide a stick of ram into a slot. You are the very definition of pc elitism.

ianuilliam

Should I even humour this part of your post? It is full of exaggerations and downplay. I have offered plenty of reasonable arguments, you just don't like them; so try to make them out as being unreasonable.

I have to wonder. Just how many times do I essentially have to argue that a mechanic knows more about cars than the average Joe? Would you object to someone saying this? Would you take offense to someone DARING to suggest that a person who works with car components on a regular basis, would know more about them than someone who just drives a car?

This repetition and mental gymnastics is becoming tiring.

I went over the difference between a console gamer that happened to learn how to upgrade/take advantage of a PC as a seperate thing, and gaming on PC itself having the affect of encouraging people to learn more about the use of the platform. The gaming experience on PC is benefited from having greater technical knowledge, were as on consoles it is not. The console gamer learned about PC as a separate thing, were as the PC gamer learned about it as part of his gaming experience.

I already stated this, just one response ago, but did they pay attention? No, of course not. He started using a analogy about someone who learned about a subject "completely independently" of his occupation. Never mind he's the exception, were as the mechanic inherently learns about vehicle construction; just by being a mechanic.

Yet I'm told it's wrong to say the typical mechanic knows more about a cars parts than the typical salesman, because they managed to find the handful of salesman that learned about cars in their own time. Never mind the argument is the occupation/platform choice inherently has differences in technical knowledge, because one platform uses it; and another doesn't. But no, I'm the one being unreasonable apparently, because the existence of exceptions apparently negates the whole argument. I could argue that lifeguards are typically better swimmers than the general public, and they would start going on about the handful of athletes that are better.

I'm done, this just keeps getting dragged on and on; and it isn't going anywhere.

And savagetwinkie, Crysis's Vhigh settings aren't DX10 only. They were just artificially locked to DX10, to create a false impression of significant benefits from the API. They can be enabled under DX9 using a config tweak.

you can visit face book on consoles and cell phones . Its not exclusive to pc so no its not .

I went over the difference between a console gamer that happened to learn how to upgrade/take advantage of a PC as a seperate thing, and gaming on PC itself having the affect of encouraging people to learn more about the use of the platform. The gaming experience on PC is benefited from having greater technical knowledge, were as on consoles it is not. The console gamer learned about PC as a separate thing, were as the PC gamer learned about it as part of his gaming experience.

I already stated this, just one response ago, but did they pay attention? No, of course not. He started using a analogy about someone who learned about a subject "completely independently" of his occupation. Never mind he's the exception, were as the mechanic inherently learns about vehicle construction; just by being a mechanic.

Yet I'm told it's wrong to say the typical mechanic knows more about a cars parts than the typical salesman, because they managed to find the handful of salesman that learned about cars in their own time. Never mind the argument is the occupation/platform choice inherently has differences in technical knowledge, because one platform uses it; and another doesn't. But no, I'm the one being unreasonable apparently, because the existence of exceptions apparently negates the whole argument. I could argue that lifeguards are typically better swimmers than the general public, and they would start going on about the handful of athletes that are better.

I'm done, this just keeps getting dragged on and on; and it isn't going anywhere.

And savagetwinkie, Crysis's Vhigh settings aren't DX10 only. They were just artificially locked to DX10, to create a false impression of significant benefits from the API. They can be enabled under DX9 using a config tweak.

AnnoyedDragon

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

I went over the difference between a console gamer that happened to learn how to upgrade/take advantage of a PC as a seperate thing, and gaming on PC itself having the affect of encouraging people to learn more about the use of the platform. The gaming experience on PC is benefited from having greater technical knowledge, were as on consoles it is not. The console gamer learned about PC as a separate thing, were as the PC gamer learned about it as part of his gaming experience.

I already stated this, just one response ago, but did they pay attention? No, of course not. He started using a analogy about someone who learned about a subject "completely independently" of his occupation. Never mind he's the exception, were as the mechanic inherently learns about vehicle construction; just by being a mechanic.

Yet I'm told it's wrong to say the typical mechanic knows more about a cars parts than the typical salesman, because they managed to find the handful of salesman that learned about cars in their own time. Never mind the argument is the occupation/platform choice inherently has differences in technical knowledge, because one platform uses it; and another doesn't. But no, I'm the one being unreasonable apparently, because the existence of exceptions apparently negates the whole argument. I could argue that lifeguards are typically better swimmers than the general public, and they would start going on about the handful of athletes that are better.

I'm done, this just keeps getting dragged on and on; and it isn't going anywhere.

And savagetwinkie, Crysis's Vhigh settings aren't DX10 only. They were just artificially locked to DX10, to create a false impression of significant benefits from the API. They can be enabled under DX9 using a config tweak.

savagetwinkie

Umthere is a good chunk of learning about computers to play on Pc's. You have to learn how to use the software and how to troubleshoot issues and fix them yourself software to hardware based. Most Pc gamers "non mmo or farmvillers"upgrade and build their pc's so most Pc gamers dont treat their Pc the same as they do consoles. Pc gamers are generally smarter then console gamers because of the average user age and experience in knowing how things worksuch as hardware and their abilities.

Learning about PC's isn't something that comes with gaming on PC's savagetwinkie

Sentence containing the biggest amount of bs I've ever read in all of System Wars history, period.

If you want to kid yourself go ahead. Don't act like it's normal human behavior or something, because then any point you try to make gets overshadowed by the ridiculousness of the claim you've made.

PC gaming is represented by $4,000 machines when console gamers talk cost and value.

PC gaming is represented by Facebook and Zynga when console gamers talk about games.

PC gaming is represented by piracy when console gamers talk about sales.

PC gaming is represented by multi-million dollar earning MMO's when console gamers talk about the "lack" of PC games.

PC gaming's representation changes depending on the argument console gamers are trying to make.

you can visit face book on consoles and cell phones . Its not exclusive to pc so no its not .

dontshackzmii

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

I went over the difference between a console gamer that happened to learn how to upgrade/take advantage of a PC as a seperate thing, and gaming on PC itself having the affect of encouraging people to learn more about the use of the platform. The gaming experience on PC is benefited from having greater technical knowledge, were as on consoles it is not. The console gamer learned about PC as a separate thing, were as the PC gamer learned about it as part of his gaming experience.

I already stated this, just one response ago, but did they pay attention? No, of course not. He started using a analogy about someone who learned about a subject "completely independently" of his occupation. Never mind he's the exception, were as the mechanic inherently learns about vehicle construction; just by being a mechanic.

Yet I'm told it's wrong to say the typical mechanic knows more about a cars parts than the typical salesman, because they managed to find the handful of salesman that learned about cars in their own time. Never mind the argument is the occupation/platform choice inherently has differences in technical knowledge, because one platform uses it; and another doesn't. But no, I'm the one being unreasonable apparently, because the existence of exceptions apparently negates the whole argument. I could argue that lifeguards are typically better swimmers than the general public, and they would start going on about the handful of athletes that are better.

I'm done, this just keeps getting dragged on and on; and it isn't going anywhere.

And savagetwinkie, Crysis's Vhigh settings aren't DX10 only. They were just artificially locked to DX10, to create a false impression of significant benefits from the API. They can be enabled under DX9 using a config tweak.

04dcarraher

Umthere is a good chunk of learning about computers to play on Pc's. You have to learn how to use the software and how to troubleshoot issues and fix them yourself software to hardware based. Most Pc gamers "non mmo or farmvillers"upgrade and build their pc's so most Pc gamers dont treat their Pc the same as they do consoles. Pc gamers are generally smarter then console gamers because of the average user age and experience in knowing how things worksuch as hardware and their abilities.