The return of the cartridge, are you ready?

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"]i always thought cartridges all the way! games shipping on flash memory=future lolsubrosian

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"]i always broke stupid ass cd based games cartridges all the way! games shipping on flash memory=future lolcasualtrashnow4

Is your name edward scissor hands?

[/QUOTE i stepped on my blood 2 the chosen cd for pc and it broke. if i stepped on my blu ray disk probley break also lol

That's why you don't step on them.

[QUOTE="dkrustyklown"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Blurays don't get scratched.

samuraiguns

Blueray players DO wear out, though. Anything with moving parts wears out. Stop looking at the disc as if though it's an isolated product. A disc is worthless without a device that can read it. Also, stop ignoring the prices of the devices that read discs, as their costs are significant. Not only are the components that are necessary to read a disc expensive, but as a mechanical device, they are inherently prone to failure due to the presence of electric motors.

No motor that is free of wear has ever been invented.

The wear produced on a metal filament by the passage of an electric current is NOTHING compared to the wear that the ball bearings in an electric motor experience.

The question was one of durability. Blue-ray discs may be scratch-proof. I don't believe this for a second, but for arguments sake, I'll let that go for now. What I'm getting at is that the durability of a blue-ray disc cannot be looked at independantly of the durability of a blue-ray player. They are companion products. They need each other in order to function. One is worthless without the other. Therefore, you can't just exalt the durability of a blue-ray disc without examining the durability of a blue-ray player. I DESPISE the idea of having to buy replacement players after so many years when the technology exists to make a media format in which the player may be expected to last 4 to 5 times as long.

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"]i always broke stupid ass cd based games cartridges all the way! games shipping on flash memory=future lolhakanakumono

Is your name edward scissor hands?

[/QUOTE i stepped on my blood 2 the chosen cd for pc and it broke. if i stepped on my blu ray disk probley break also lol

That's why you don't step on them.

[QUOTE="samuraiguns"]

[QUOTE="dkrustyklown"]

Blueray players DO wear out, though. Anything with moving parts wears out. Stop looking at the disc as if though it's an isolated product. A disc is worthless without a device that can read it. Also, stop ignoring the prices of the devices that read discs, as their costs are significant. Not only are the components that are necessary to read a disc expensive, but as a mechanical device, they are inherently prone to failure due to the presence of electric motors.

No motor that is free of wear has ever been invented.

The wear produced on a metal filament by the passage of an electric current is NOTHING compared to the wear that the ball bearings in an electric motor experience.

dkrustyklown

The question was one of durability. Blue-ray discs may be scratch-proof. I don't believe this for a second, but for arguments sake, I'll let that go for now. What I'm getting at is that the durability of a blue-ray disc cannot be looked at independantly of the durability of a blue-ray player. They are companion products. They need each other in order to function. One is worthless without the other. Therefore, you can't just exalt the durability of a blue-ray disc without examining the durability of a blue-ray player. I DESPISE the idea of having to buy replacement players after so many years when the technology exists to make a media format in which the player may be expected to last 4 to 5 times as long.

They are scratch proof.

I wasn't talking about bluray players. So you were off topic. Bluray players may not work forever, but flash drives aren't going to last forever either. Cartridge ports wear out too.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"]

Is your name edward scissor hands?

[/QUOTE i stepped on my blood 2 the chosen cd for pc and it broke. if i stepped on my blu ray disk probley break also lolcasualtrashnow4

That's why you don't step on them.

Don't leave them on the floor.

The only reason they broke was you.

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

That's why you don't step on them.

hakanakumono

Don't leave them on the floor.

The only reason they broke was you.

Two terabyte SD cards are already in development. One of these babies will have enough room to hold 100 HD movies and will be vastly superior to any disc media available. Impervious to scratches and read by a device with no moving parts, such a storage solution will make even Blue-Ray seem like an archaic artifact of a bygone era.

So, what does this mean to console gaming?

Personally, I think that the age of the cartridge will see a glorious return. The discs of our era will be viewed as an aberration in the evolution of consoles. We'll all look back and say, "what were we thinking? Moving parts? Yuck!"

I hope that Nintendo will be the first company to (re)utilize this technology. It will be the equivalent to a giant outstretched middle finger aimed right at Sony (anyone that remembers the original Nintendy/Sony partnership in R&D leading up to the N64 & Playstation will know what I'm talking about).

With moving parts out of the way, we'll be able to enjoy consoles that last 20+ years again.

dkrustyklown

It's not going to happen. Besides, games are never going to need TB of data. Anything over bluray size will be too expensive to produce anyways.

And even if it does, it won't erase the failure of Nintendo in the past.

hakanakumono

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It's not going to happen. Besides, games are never going to need TB of data. Anything over bluray size will be too expensive to produce anyways.

And even if it does, it won't erase the failure of Nintendo in the past.

Trmpt

If they start making games $100 then maybe we'll fill up a bluray. But until then, I can't see us using TB of data for a very, very long time. Since Subrosian is so educated as to gaming market matters and the going ons inside, I wonder what he would have to say about a games using more than 50GB.

not everyone has the internet so digital download is stupid end of story games ship on flash memory end of story avalible at ur local store is the future.casualtrashnow4

*continues to buy disc based games to add to his working library of games stretching back to 1996*

[QUOTE="Trmpt"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It's not going to happen. Besides, games are never going to need TB of data. Anything over bluray size will be too expensive to produce anyways.

And even if it does, it won't erase the failure of Nintendo in the past.

hakanakumono

If they start making games $100 then maybe we'll fill up a bluray. But until then, I can't see us using TB of data for a very, very long time. Since Subrosian is so educated as to gaming market matters and the going ons inside, I wonder what he would have to say about a games using more than 50GB.

*continues to buy disc based games to add to his working library of games stretching back to 1996*

hakanakumono

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Trmpt"] Most everyone who says something like that is proven wrong.Trmpt

If they start making games $100 then maybe we'll fill up a bluray. But until then, I can't see us using TB of data for a very, very long time. Since Subrosian is so educated as to gaming market matters and the going ons inside, I wonder what he would have to say about a games using more than 50GB.

There's a point where money draws the line. Unless people are willing to spend $200 for a single game and devs are willing to work a decade on them. :roll:

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

*continues to buy disc based games to add to his working library of games stretching back to 1996*

casualtrashnow4

I go back and play old games all the time. I buy games to play them again again and again. I'm just capable of taking care of my things, unlike you.

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

*continues to buy disc based games to add to his working library of games stretching back to 1996*

hakanakumono

I go back and play old games all the time. I buy games to play them again again and again. I'm just capable of taking care of my things, unlike you.

cartridges=the most long lasting durable consoles and storage format for games. my snes,nes,64 even jaguar 64 still work lol, i had xbox dvd rom drive wear out on my 2 times last generation plus this gen peoples dvd rom and blu ray drive will eventually wear out everyone needs to go back to cartridges. plus digital download is bad because harddrives wear out alsocasualtrashnow4

Cartridge slots wear out as well.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"] yea ur probley one of those people who buy a game and play it once or twice and let it sit for rest of ur life on the shelf. i played my games all of them so constant changing them in out of console in out of case eventually scratched them up. cartridges is still the best solution like it or not. i was gaming before dumbass cd based systems were around.casualtrashnow4

I go back and play old games all the time. I buy games to play them again again and again. I'm just capable of taking care of my things, unlike you.

Can you go back to your original account now and just admit that you know nothing about what you're talking about?

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"]cartridges=the most long lasting durable consoles and storage format for games. my snes,nes,64 even jaguar 64 still work lol, i had xbox dvd rom drive wear out on my 2 times last generation plus this gen peoples dvd rom and blu ray drive will eventually wear out everyone needs to go back to cartridges. plus digital download is bad because harddrives wear out alsohakanakumono

Cartridge slots wear out as well.

[QUOTE="Trmpt"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

If they start making games $100 then maybe we'll fill up a bluray. But until then, I can't see us using TB of data for a very, very long time. Since Subrosian is so educated as to gaming market matters and the going ons inside, I wonder what he would have to say about a games using more than 50GB.

hakanakumono

There's a point where money draws the line. Unless people are willing to spend $200 for a single game and devs are willing to work a decade on them. :roll:

I dont have any idea how game development works but it should work like everything else. Meaning that I dont see why developers cant create better ways (development tools) to make developing more advanced games more cost efficient. Its like how researchers can create newer, cheaper ways of creating more complex things, which happens all the time.

Developers probably saw this gen as a wake up call that they let them know that they need to create such tools for future games.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Trmpt"] One day games are going to to have a TB worth of information. If you look at past trends you should realize that it is going to happen. What were the size of games 20 years ago?.....they were somewhere in the large end of KB. Then look at games 10 years ago......they were between what.......50 and 100 MB. And then look at games now...dont some PS3 games have over 20 GB? Someone can correct me on those figures if they want. The point is that eventually they will most likely be a TB in size. Trmpt

There's a point where money draws the line. Unless people are willing to spend $200 for a single game and devs are willing to work a decade on them. :roll:

Technology doesn't make games, people make games. Games take much more work to make now and thus much more people. You can't create newer, cheaper people unless the game industry somehow decides to use slave labor.

[QUOTE="Trmpt"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

There's a point where money draws the line. Unless people are willing to spend $200 for a single game and devs are willing to work a decade on them. :roll:

hakanakumono

Technology doesn't make games, people make games.Games take much more work to make now and thus much more people. You can't create newer, cheaper people unless the game industry somehow decides to use slave labor.

lol.......what? People use better tools all the time to make their job easier. Why should better sofware be any different for making developing games easier? In fact newer and better ways of getting something done is makeing it to where LESS people are needed.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Trmpt"] I dont have any idea how game development works but it should work like everything else. Meaning that I dont see why developers cant create better ways (development tools) to make developing more advanced games more cost efficient. Its like how researchers can create newer, cheaper ways of creating more complex things.Trmpt

Technology doesn't make games, people make games.Games take much more work to make now and thus much more people. You can't create newer, cheaper people unless the game industry somehow decides to use slave labor.

lol.......what? People use better tools all the time to make there job easier. Why should better sofware be any different for developing games? In fact newer and better ways of getting something done is makeing it to where LESS people are needed.

I don't think you understand. Just because you have superior tools doesn't mean that the character models are going to start making themselves, the textures are going to start collecting themselves, etc ... The more that has to go into a game the more people you have to hire to put into a game, regardless of how the technology may make their job easier or do a better job than it had before. And if you're going to ask people to do more work you're going to have to pay them more and then your development costs are going to go up.

[QUOTE="Trmpt"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Technology doesn't make games, people make games.Games take much more work to make now and thus much more people. You can't create newer, cheaper people unless the game industry somehow decides to use slave labor.

hakanakumono

lol.......what? People use better tools all the time to make there job easier. Why should better sofware be any different for developing games? In fact newer and better ways of getting something done is makeing it to where LESS people are needed.

I don't think you understand. Just because you have superior tools doesn't mean that the character models are going to start making themselves, the textures are going to start collecting themselves, etc ... The more that has to go into a game the more people you have to hire to put into a game, regardless of how the technology may make their job easier or do a better job than it had before. And if you're going to ask people to do more work you're going to have to pay them more and then your development costs are going to go up.

More powerful hardware is going to make a graphical artist(s) take extra time and create an extremely detailed world. And that would take time and be more difficult than it currently is........but I gaurantee that an updated version of the tools they use to draw and create those worlds will make their life a lot easier. Think about it........was it easier to photoshop a photo 10 years ago than it is today?

Krusty - there was little need for such an arrogant tone - your response is incorrect, it completely ignores the realities of the software market, and the important cost-driving factors of the industry. My response, that cartridges don't make sense - is based on a deep understanding of the industry - anyone who understands the gaming software business knows why consoles won't *ever* go with such a solution. - The most important costs for a software business - the one that can *kill them* - is the cost of inventory. Ideally a software company has zero inventory cost. That's why they all like digital distribution - they actually make the money they're supposed to make off a digital copy. Discs are a second-best, because at $0.75 per unit, the initial shipments are not obscene, nor does the cost of reimbursing stores for unsold inventory kill them. They can take back and dispose of discs without a huge hit - they can quickly print and issue a new shipment without eating their profits.subrosian

I do not intend to belittle anyone, but when an obvious point must be stated, it will be stated, in the most obvious terms possible. I apologize if I seem aggressive in my communication style. No ill-will is intended towards anyone.

I must make several points to address your position.

Firstly, you provide an optical disc price of $0.75 per unit. Has this cost been static throughout the history of optical discs? I think not. It's taken a lot of streamlining over the years to reach that price point. At one point, it was argued that optical discs would never replace tape cassettes for the very same reasons that you claim that flash memory or SD cards will never replace optical discs. There used to exist THOUSANDS of factories producing the magnetic tape that went into cassettes. Magnetic tape production had the advantage of nearly 40 years of production streamlining backing it. To many people at the start of the 1980's it seemed that optical disc media would never be as cost-effective as magnetic tape. Stamping the foil that goes into one of those discs required a far more sophisticated manufacturing process than what was necessary to produce magnetic tape. By comparison, magnetic tape seemed almost neolithic. The machines used to produce tape were far less expensive and fragile than those used to stamp discs. Streamlined production brought parity between the costs of the two formats, however. With parity achieved, the superior format naturally won. Streamlined production can do the same thing for SD cards that it did for optical discs.

Compared to how optical discs started out, SD cards actually have a considerable advantage. Thanks to digital cameras, SD card production is being streamlined as we speak. Optical discs didn't have a secondary use as a picture storage device the way that today's SD cards have. Thanks to modern society's insatiable demand for digital photography, more & more SD cards are being produced, and their costs will be reduced no matter what else happens. I fully expect SD card productions costs to drop even more rapidly than optical disc production costs dropped in the '80s & 90s. They're just far too useful for too many purposes for them not to. The next step is to introduce extremely high capacity SD cards to be used in video recording, because people want their video recorders to be small and that's just more easily done with SD cards than with discs.

It is an assumption to think that SD cards can't drop to the same level as optical discs in production costs, and it's a bad one, at that. It's the same assumption that many made in regards to magnetic tape vs optical discs. Of course I can't predict the future with certainty, but I can look at the past and base a prediction on established patterns.

Secondly, we have an example of the SD card format being used successfully in gaming. The Nintendo DS basically uses an SD card variant, and it has literally mopped the floor with Sony's disc-based PSP. Here we have an SD card format competing head-to-head against an optical disc format, and, here's the kicker, beating the snot out of it, giving it a wedgie, a nookie, an armtwist, spitting in its face, and then making it say, "thank you sir, may I have another". The DS, by all accounts, has been a resounding success. All it takes to transfer that success from the handheld market to the home console market is to increase the storage capacity of the cards while continuing to streamline production to reduce costs. This is definitely NOT beyond the pale.

Thirdly, in regards to DD. It seems to me that SD cards lend themselves to DD quite well. SD cards don't require expensive burners and basically anything that can read an SD card can write an SD card. If anything, an SD card format could be a Godsend to small developers looking to reduce inventory costs. If the consumer provides his own SD card and merely downloads a purchase to it, that completely negates the inventory concerns that you expressed. This would also ease a lot of concerns that consumers may have about DD, since they wouldn't be chaining their digital purchases to the harddrive of a console that may fail and take their purchases with it. If their console breaks, they could replace it and pop in their SD card with their downloaded games and keep playing as if nothing had ever happened. Also, small developers could even sell their DD to people that don't even have internet, since purchases could be arranged at kiosks as another poster pointed out earlier. It seems like a win-win to me.

Sorry for the long posts.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="Trmpt"]

lol.......what? People use better tools all the time to make there job easier. Why should better sofware be any different for developing games? In fact newer and better ways of getting something done is makeing it to where LESS people are needed.

Trmpt

I don't think you understand. Just because you have superior tools doesn't mean that the character models are going to start making themselves, the textures are going to start collecting themselves, etc ... The more that has to go into a game the more people you have to hire to put into a game, regardless of how the technology may make their job easier or do a better job than it had before. And if you're going to ask people to do more work you're going to have to pay them more and then your development costs are going to go up.

More powerful hardware is going to make a graphical artist(s) take extra time and create an extremely detailed world. And that would take time and be more difficult than it currently is........but I gaurantee that an updated version of the tools they use to draw and create those worlds will make their life a lot easier. Think about it........was it easier to photoshop a photo 10 years ago than it is today?

Photoshopping a photo is different because its editing something that already exists.

It's like building a sculpture. 10 years ago that sculpture had to be 50" wide. Now it has to be 500" wide (proportional to the height). But it costs the same. Is it feasible to make it 5000" wide?

[QUOTE="XanderZane"]

[QUOTE="dkrustyklown"] Hhmm.. 100GB games for XBox 720 sounds pretty good. No moving parts, should make it more reliable. How fast is the transfer for SD. I'm assuming it's a lot faster then DVD or Blu-Ray that's for sure. Curious as to what the read rate is. You have a link to this information?

*******************************************************************************

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

It's not going to happen. Besides, games are never going to need TB of data. Anything over bluray size will be too expensive to produce anyways.

And even if it does, it won't erase the failure of Nintendo in the past.

hakanakumono

I would think that SD storage would be vastly cheaper then a Blu-Ray disc, but I could be wrong. I'm worried more about overheating. How well do these things hold up to high heat for long periods of time? Having one in a camera is nothing, but having these in a HOT game console for hours and hours may cause problems.

No, 50 TB SD cards are going to be much more expensive. Large 100 TB external hard drives are about $100 when priced down. Who knows how much a 50 TB SD card would cost, becuase fitting 50 TB in an SD card is going to cost more money.

Besides, they're just so small that they're easily to misplace. SD cards are really good for things like slots in laptops, cameras, PCs, cell phones, etc. But not for individual games that will never even use as much as 1TB.

The fact of the matter is, gaming will ever need more than 50GB because anything beyond the capacity of Bluray would simply be too expensive to produce. When this technology is even remotely affordable, bluray will be much, much cheaper. So why would devs pay more for a disc medium that is more than they will ever need to use? They'll profit more off of bluray.

you think gamers 20 years ago ever thought we would need 1GB of space? no, you have no idea what the future holds so why do you act like you do? Not trying to sound rude....but your opinions =/= to fact

My nes slot IS worn out and no longer works. I'm ordering a new replacement slot off ebay.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"]cartridges=the most long lasting durable consoles and storage format for games. my snes,nes,64 even jaguar 64 still work lol, i had xbox dvd rom drive wear out on my 2 times last generation plus this gen peoples dvd rom and blu ray drive will eventually wear out everyone needs to go back to cartridges. plus digital download is bad because harddrives wear out alsocasualtrashnow4

Cartridge slots wear out as well.

[QUOTE="Trmpt"]

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

I don't think you understand. Just because you have superior tools doesn't mean that the character models are going to start making themselves, the textures are going to start collecting themselves, etc ... The more that has to go into a game the more people you have to hire to put into a game, regardless of how the technology may make their job easier or do a better job than it had before. And if you're going to ask people to do more work you're going to have to pay them more and then your development costs are going to go up.

hakanakumono

More powerful hardware is going to make a graphical artist(s) take extra time and create an extremely detailed world. And that would take time and be more difficult than it currently is........but I gaurantee that an updated version of the tools they use to draw and create those worlds will make their life a lot easier. Think about it........was it easier to photoshop a photo 10 years ago than it is today?

Photoshopping a photo is different because its editing something that already exists.

It's like building a sculpture. 10 years ago that sculpture had to be 50" wide. Now it has to be 500" wide (proportional to the height). But it costs the same. Is it feasible to make it 5000" wide?

That was meant to be just one example of how the advancement of software has made the lives of developers easier.

You dont think that designers want to make that kind of game? You always here about how they WANT to create a large detailed world. There are always going to be devleopers out there that keep pushing the limits.

My nes slot IS worn out and no longer works. I'm ordering a new replacement slot off ebay.

[QUOTE="casualtrashnow4"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Cartridge slots wear out as well.

topgunmv