TOUGH REALITY check about pre owned games business...

heres a tough reality check for you

if it wasnt for the used game market,

where would i find my n64 games, or snes games or nes games or ps1 games if they needed to be replaced

since sony could give a about that ,

or nintendo or any one for that matter

, if they had a big video game store who still sold every single game for dirt cheap with the exception of current gen software we wouldnt need used game stores pawns or yardsales ,

or ebay/craigslist,

we would all instead go to that store,

so with that said ,

tough reality about just having a one way market -where only newe stuff sells,

=less chance for new gamers to enjoy what started it all

heres a tough reality check for you

if it wasnt for the used game market,

where would i find my n64 games, or snes games or nes games or ps1 games if they needed to be replaced

since sony could give a about that ,

or nintendo or any one for that matter

, if they had a big video game store who still sold every single game for dirt cheap with the exception of current gen software we wouldnt need used game stores pawns or yardsales ,

or ebay/craigslist,

we would all instead go to that store,

so with that said ,

tough reality about just having a one way market -where only newe stuff sells,

=less chance for new gamers to enjoy what started it all

mariokart64fan

IF they start doing this, they would not try to enforce it on old games this gen and the gens before it.. They will start with a whole new system of registration with the next gen most likely if it does happen.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="santoron"]

Not beneficial to whom? It benefits me to have full rights over my property. I could give a hoot what a company wants. I imagine car companies would like to prohibit used car sales too...

Always find it shocking to see so many consumers anxious to limit their own rights in hopes of benefiting multi-billion dollar corporations. You don't hear people fighting to ban other media resales and the effect on those industries is similar. The industry has survived a generation with the current business model, and shall continue to thrive no matter the business model. Let's quit trying to shove our consumer rights out the window.

santoron

Except you really don't.. You pay for the intellectual property of the product.. Certain violations for software can lead to having your copy banned.. The only reason why you see this on the PC the most, is its the most easily done right now.. The Wii, 360 and PS3 were never really designed with that system in mind yet.. But I am willing to bet we are going to see one in future...

Which changes nothing. I can say I own Super Mario 2, and you can say "No. You own a license to play SM2." Since courts have repeatedly affirmed my rights to Sell, Trade, Gift, or otherwise transfer my license to another, conferring to them full rights, there is no difference.

Again, the same type of argument could be used in several other forms of media, which have dealt with these issues and lived alongside their respective resale industries longer than games have been in existence. We think of this issue as new and unique when it's neither. Other industries simply learned to stop crying about it and invent ways to live alongside resale. Gaming hasn't gotten to that point yet, and a youthful and often uniformed customer base is all too often receptive of the same arguments because of misplaced hero worship assigned to game publishers, developers, and hardware manufacturers.

Other industries stopped crying? Are you kidding me? The music industry for over a decade has been trying to find ways in stopping things like this.. And gaming has already gotten to that point with pc games.. Which more and more tailor it toa account.. The issue isn't new I never said it was.. IN fact it has been effectively ended on the pc where really you will never trust a secondary source due to cd keys and hte like..

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X didn't buy the game in the first place because he didn't think it was worth it's $60 price tag, neither did Y or Z.

How much did publisher B make? £0.

True_Gamer_

Fixed for you.

There's been a fair few games that I bought new for full price which I wouldn't have bought at all if I wasn't able to sell them on when I was done with them.

Holy crap, after reading the topic sentence I thought you were going to say 2 year olds were slaving away slapping new price stickers on used games with dried bloody fingers or something.

Publishers and developers are only entitled to first sale. After that, the physical copy is solely the property of the consumer who bought it. Then when said consumer sells it back to the game store, the game store has sole ownership.

Just deal with it.

789shadow

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

Publishers and developers are only entitled to first sale. After that, the physical copy is solely the property of the consumer who bought it. Then when said consumer sells it back to the game store, the game store has sole ownership.

Just deal with it.

sSubZerOo

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

What the hell are you talking about? I own the disc, not the intellectual property. The publishers are selling the disc, not the property, and that's what I'm selling to a game store.

Other industries stopped crying? Are you kidding me? The music industry for over a decade has been trying to find ways in stopping things like this..

sSubZerOo

The music industry's fight over the last decade has been over piracy, not music resale. :|

The music industry has fought P2P sites, worked with ISPs to target music sharers directly, and with the courts to firm up anti piracy laws. Can you point to one time the Music industry has tried to shut down a record store to stop used CD/Vinyl sales in recent years? Because THAT's the same thing as used gaming, not internet piracy.

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

Publishers and developers are only entitled to first sale. After that, the physical copy is solely the property of the consumer who bought it. Then when said consumer sells it back to the game store, the game store has sole ownership.

Just deal with it.

sSubZerOo

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

Again, you're just flat out wrong. If it were illegal to resale used software - be it games or otherwise - do you really think they'd allow used gamestores to exist? Or gamestops to profit mightily off them? Do you think huge companies like Best Buy and Wal Mart would get involved in an illegal enterprise, an open themselves to enormous damages in lawsuits, on the hope that law enforcement and the software industry wouldn't come after them? Insanity.

Pre-owned game sales are becoming just as much of a problem as piracy on the PC platform. Why it's been ignored and out of the negative light for so long? I have no idea. Gamestop has done a good job of keeping the policies under wraps thats for sure. People buying used games from Gamestop are essentially engaging in the same activity that PC pirates do, except they're paying for it, and Gamestop gets rich from it. Shady as hell.Merex760

Here's why it's been ignored: because publishers and devs don't lose money off of it. They had no right to that money in the first place. After the first sale, they're done.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

Publishers and developers are only entitled to first sale. After that, the physical copy is solely the property of the consumer who bought it. Then when said consumer sells it back to the game store, the game store has sole ownership.

Just deal with it.

789shadow

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

What the hell are you talking about? I own the disc, not the intellectual property. The publishers are selling the disc, not the property, and that's what I'm selling to a game store.

No your not.. The disc is worthless.. Its the intellectual property on it.. A license as it were, you can now but in the future I am expecting this to be radically curved with the next gen..

[QUOTE="Merex760"]Pre-owned game sales are becoming just as much of a problem as piracy on the PC platform. Why it's been ignored and out of the negative light for so long? I have no idea. Gamestop has done a good job of keeping the policies under wraps thats for sure. People buying used games from Gamestop are essentially engaging in the same activity that PC pirates do, except they're paying for it, and Gamestop gets rich from it. Shady as hell.789shadow

Here's why it's been ignored: because publishers and devs don't lose money off of it. They had no right to that money in the first place. After the first sale, they're done.

Thats not how software sorry.. When you buy software you do not own.. You have a license which gives you permission to use it.. You sign/accept a contract that if you violate they can reliquish you of it.. And yes they do lose tangible money from this.. FAR MORE tangible then piracy in fact.. Because they know the customer was willing to pay some money on it (and not having it free) which they could have gotten down a later road when it lowered in price.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

Publishers and developers are only entitled to first sale. After that, the physical copy is solely the property of the consumer who bought it. Then when said consumer sells it back to the game store, the game store has sole ownership.

Just deal with it.

santoron

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

Again, you're just flat out wrong. If it were illegal to resale used software - be it games or otherwise - do you really think they'd allow used gamestores to exist? Or gamestops to profit mightily off them? Do you think huge companies like Best Buy and Wal Mart would get involved in an illegal enterprise, an open themselves to enormous damages in lawsuits, on the hope that law enforcement and the software industry wouldn't come after them? Insanity.

Yet again.. this isn't actively enforced yet.. Because tracking the game is a huge problem.. This will most likely change next gen in which they tailor games you bought speciifcally for your account, making it useless for others.. And no your not suppose to resale computer software, because 9 out of 10 times if the company is actively enforcing it they can ban that cdkey or account.. Steam is a obvious example of this practice.. In which you can't resell games or the account.. If found out they perma ban it.

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

sSubZerOo

What the hell are you talking about? I own the disc, not the intellectual property. The publishers are selling the disc, not the property, and that's what I'm selling to a game store.

No your not.. The disc is worthless.. Its the intellectual property on it.. A license as it were, you can now but in the future I am expecting this to be radically curved with the next gen..

You are confusing dreams with reality. You clearly have no grasp of this whole business. I have the disc, which is what I bought. The devs and publishers only get money from that first sale. After that, the ownership of the disc is mine alone. When I sell it back to the game store, the disc becomes solely theirs. This has nothing to do with all the PC gaming stuff you throw out. None of that matters in this discussion.

companies are like crying babies now, paying 60$ for a 5-6 hours game is insulting

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

What the hell are you talking about? I own the disc, not the intellectual property. The publishers are selling the disc, not the property, and that's what I'm selling to a game store.

789shadow

No your not.. The disc is worthless.. Its the intellectual property on it.. A license as it were, you can now but in the future I am expecting this to be radically curved with the next gen..

You are confusing dreams with reality. You clearly have no grasp of this whole business. I have the disc, which is what I bought. The devs and publishers only get money from that first sale. After that, the ownership of the disc is mine alone. When I sell it back to the game store, the disc becomes solely theirs. This has nothing to do with all the PC gaming stuff you throw out. None of that matters in this discussion.

You clearly don't know how intellectual property works.. Because the disc it self is worthless in the legal sense.. Its whats on the disc.. And yeah pc software does matter.. Because consoles games are the exact same.. Intellectual property... This is being enforced more and more.. And companies like Activision have been looking for ways to enforce it on the console..

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

No your not.. The disc is worthless.. Its the intellectual property on it.. A license as it were, you can now but in the future I am expecting this to be radically curved with the next gen..

sSubZerOo

You are confusing dreams with reality. You clearly have no grasp of this whole business. I have the disc, which is what I bought. The devs and publishers only get money from that first sale. After that, the ownership of the disc is mine alone. When I sell it back to the game store, the disc becomes solely theirs. This has nothing to do with all the PC gaming stuff you throw out. None of that matters in this discussion.

You clearly don't know how intellectual property works.. Because the disc it self is worthless in the legal sense.. Its whats on the disc.. And yeah pc software does matter.. Because consoles games are the exact same.. Intellectual property... This is being enforced more and more.. And companies like Activision have been looking for ways to enforce it on the console..

This really is hysterical................you honestly think companies can legally prevent you from selling a disc that you own?

[QUOTE="santoron"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

How software works that is incorrect.. The physical copy means nothing, its the intellectual property.. This is pretty cut and dry on the pc when it comes to software.. The only reason why this has yet to happen for consoles is they havn't developed a system yet.. We are most likely going to see that next gen.

sSubZerOo

Again, you're just flat out wrong. If it were illegal to resale used software - be it games or otherwise - do you really think they'd allow used gamestores to exist? Or gamestops to profit mightily off them? Do you think huge companies like Best Buy and Wal Mart would get involved in an illegal enterprise, an open themselves to enormous damages in lawsuits, on the hope that law enforcement and the software industry wouldn't come after them? Insanity.

Yet again.. this isn't actively enforced yet.. Because tracking the game is a huge problem.. This will most likely change next gen in which they tailor games you bought speciifcally for your account, making it useless for others.. And no your not suppose to resale computer software, because 9 out of 10 times if the company is actively enforcing it they can ban that cdkey or account.. Steam is a obvious example of this practice.. In which you can't resell games or the account.. If found out they perma ban it.

How is tracking a game a huge problem when it comes to enforcing you hypothetical law? Go to any GameStop, look on the wall, BUSTED. Best Buy and Wal Mart are now very publicly entering the resale market. You don't need a fancy system to detect this. They ADVERTISE it. If you think that major publishers are sitting on laws that would make the resale of games illegal and allowing a multibillion dollar company like Wal Mart to screw them over you're crazy. A simple cease and desist would get the ball rolling. Law enforcement would take it from there. They don't because these practices are Legal, and have been affirmed legal by the courts numerous times!

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

You are confusing dreams with reality. You clearly have no grasp of this whole business. I have the disc, which is what I bought. The devs and publishers only get money from that first sale. After that, the ownership of the disc is mine alone. When I sell it back to the game store, the disc becomes solely theirs. This has nothing to do with all the PC gaming stuff you throw out. None of that matters in this discussion.

789shadow

You clearly don't know how intellectual property works.. Because the disc it self is worthless in the legal sense.. Its whats on the disc.. And yeah pc software does matter.. Because consoles games are the exact same.. Intellectual property... This is being enforced more and more.. And companies like Activision have been looking for ways to enforce it on the console..

This really is hysterical................you honestly think companies can legally prevent you from selling a disc that you own?

Yeah quite easily in fact.. All they would have to do is force you to sign a agreement in which you register yoru unique cd key to the account.. Thus binding it to it making resale useless.. This has been going on the pc for some time.. The pc is no different then the console in this regard.. And there is a good chance that this will go the same for next gen imo..

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

No your not.. The disc is worthless.. Its the intellectual property on it.. A license as it were, you can now but in the future I am expecting this to be radically curved with the next gen..

sSubZerOo

You are confusing dreams with reality. You clearly have no grasp of this whole business. I have the disc, which is what I bought. The devs and publishers only get money from that first sale. After that, the ownership of the disc is mine alone. When I sell it back to the game store, the disc becomes solely theirs. This has nothing to do with all the PC gaming stuff you throw out. None of that matters in this discussion.

You clearly don't know how intellectual property works.. Because the disc it self is worthless in the legal sense.. Its whats on the disc.. And yeah pc software does matter.. Because consoles games are the exact same.. Intellectual property... This is being enforced more and more.. And companies like Activision have been looking for ways to enforce it on the console..

You wouldn't have to enforce it on the console, you would enforce it at the very public place of sale for starters. The resale industry isn't operating in the shadows, you know...

You keep talking about cd keys and what not. It makes me think you've gotten this issue confused with piracy. The two are miles apart.

So what's your point?

It's totally irrational to believe that if used games weren't available, all thos used sales would have become new sales...

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="789shadow"]

You are confusing dreams with reality. You clearly have no grasp of this whole business. I have the disc, which is what I bought. The devs and publishers only get money from that first sale. After that, the ownership of the disc is mine alone. When I sell it back to the game store, the disc becomes solely theirs. This has nothing to do with all the PC gaming stuff you throw out. None of that matters in this discussion.

santoron

You clearly don't know how intellectual property works.. Because the disc it self is worthless in the legal sense.. Its whats on the disc.. And yeah pc software does matter.. Because consoles games are the exact same.. Intellectual property... This is being enforced more and more.. And companies like Activision have been looking for ways to enforce it on the console..

You wouldn't have to enforce it on the console, you would enforce it at the very public place of sale for starters. The resale industry isn't operating in the shadows, you know...

You keep talking about cd keys and what not. It makes me think you've gotten this issue confused with piracy. The two are miles apart.

:| No cd keys are not just for piracy.. They are licensing.. When you use CD key for Starcraft 2.. It is permanently bound to a account.. And according to Blizzard ToS you are not suppose to have people use your account or sell your account.. If either ones occur, they are within their full legal rights of banning.. They don't go store to store because its pointless.. Physical copies mean nothing when they are enforcing licensing.. The only thing that means anything when it comes to intellectual property of this kind.. Thats why developers have become so fond of Steam.. Because it does the exact same things.. You can not trade or sell your steam account.. They will be banned of Valve catches wind of it.. And the physical discs are worthless with out their cd keys..

First- sale doctrine:

The first-sale doctrine as it relates to computer software is an area of legal confusion. Some software publishers claim in theirEnd User License Agreements(EULA) that their software is licensed, not sold, thus the first-sale doctrine does not apply to their works. Courts have contradicted.Bauer & Cie. v. O'DonnellandBobbs-Merrill Co. v. Strausare two relatedU.S. Supreme Courtcases.

It's legal, the publishers are babies... /thread

Pre owned games business is detrimental to the industry let me explain why:

1. Person X buys game A....

2. X sells it to GAME store.

3. GAME sells it to person Y.

3 Y sells it BACK to GAME.

4. Game sells it to Z.

Now we have X Y and Z ALL playing game A. How much publisher B got from this deal? THE PRICE OF ONE FREAKING GAME £50....How much did GAME store make? At least £70....

Now TAKE PRE OWNED SALES OUT OF THE PICTURE:

X paid £50 plus £50 from Y plus another £50 from Z.

How much did publisher B make? £150.

DISCLAIMER

The above practice is LEGAL. OPERATES in BROAD daylight in high street shops. Thus its TOLERATED, NOT persecuted and NOT stigmatized.

As opposed to piracy...

True_Gamer_

How do you know Y and Z would have paid full price for the game? You don't, so you're assuming what publisher B would make. It's quite possible Y and Z never would have bought the game at all if they hadn't been able to get it cheaper used.

:| No cd keys are not just for piracy.. They are licensing.. When you use CD key for Starcraft 2.. It is permanently bound to a account.. And according to Blizzard ToS you are not suppose to have people use your account or sell your account.. If either ones occur, they are within their full legal rights of banning.. They don't go store to store because its pointless.. Physical copies mean nothing when they are enforcing licensing.. The only thing that means anything when it comes to intellectual property of this kind.. Thats why developers have become so fond of Steam.. Because it does the exact same things.. You can not trade or sell your steam account.. They will be banned of Valve catches wind of it.. And the physical discs are worthless with out their cd keys..

sSubZerOo

You're still dodging the point: If resale is illegal, then why are Fortune 500 companies profiting off it in broad day light? You need all kinds of systems to try and stop piracy at the end user. You need nothing more than a police officer and a GameStop to bust gaming resale. So what gives?

Face it. It's a perfectly legal.

First- sale doctrine:

The first-sale doctrine as it relates to computer software is an area of legal confusion. Some software publishers claim in theirEnd User License Agreements(EULA) that their software is licensed, not sold, thus the first-sale doctrine does not apply to their works. Courts have contradicted.Bauer & Cie. v. O'DonnellandBobbs-Merrill Co. v. Strausare two relatedU.S. Supreme Courtcases.

It's legal, the publishers are babies... /thread

JuarN18

/applauds. Thanks for the concise summation. I don't know if it will help, but it should've :P

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

:| No cd keys are not just for piracy.. They are licensing.. When you use CD key for Starcraft 2.. It is permanently bound to a account.. And according to Blizzard ToS you are not suppose to have people use your account or sell your account.. If either ones occur, they are within their full legal rights of banning.. They don't go store to store because its pointless.. Physical copies mean nothing when they are enforcing licensing.. The only thing that means anything when it comes to intellectual property of this kind.. Thats why developers have become so fond of Steam.. Because it does the exact same things.. You can not trade or sell your steam account.. They will be banned of Valve catches wind of it.. And the physical discs are worthless with out their cd keys..

santoron

You're still dodging the point: If resale is illegal, then why are Fortune 500 companies profiting off it in broad day light? You need all kinds of systems to try and stop piracy at the end user. You need nothing more than a police officer and a GameStop to bust gaming resale. So what gives?

Face it. It's a perfectly legal.

I never said it was illegal right now.. Because there is no feasible way of enforcing it.. What I said is by next generation I expect a new system in which you have to register your license to your account permanently. . And its not that kind of legality.. You do not face criminal charges, what happens is the company who gave you that license to begin with has the right to relinquish it from you that is all.. All I said is there is a huge possibility that we will see this model enforced next gen.. Where each game is a unique with its own code you must register perma with your account.. That is all.. I hope that is not the case, but thats probably whats going to happen.

If I can't sella product I buy to another person, I won't buy that product period. So instead of getting $60, the publisher can have zero. Pick Publishers, ball is in your court.

So why isnt GM crying about the used car sales industry? Im sick of people bashing used game sales. If a person legally buys a game and resales it thats their right. I wonder how many people who cry over used game sales buy second hand clothes,cars,homes,etc... I dont see anybody whining about KB Homes,Apple,GM,etc... not receiving a profit from their products being resold to other buyers.

If I can't sella product I buy to another person, I won't buy that product period. So instead of getting $60, the publisher can have zero. Pick Publishers, ball is in your court.

ActicEdge

This really isn't a legitimate defense.. This is like every other thing such as the DLC's taking over this gen.. Where people say they are boycotting and all.. When in actuallity they become extremely popular none the less..

So why isnt GM crying about the used car sales industry? Im sick of people bashing used game sales. If a person legally buys a game and resales it thats their right. I wonder how many people who cry over used game sales buy second hand clothes,cars,homes,etc... I dont see anybody whining about KB Homes,Apple,GM,etc... not receiving a profit from their products being resold to other buyers.

coltsfan4ever

Because they are not the same thing? :roll: A video game is a intellectual property which falls under a completely different set of standards..

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

If I can't sella product I buy to another person, I won't buy that product period. So instead of getting $60, the publisher can have zero. Pick Publishers, ball is in your court.

sSubZerOo

This really isn't a legitimate defense.. This is like every other thing such as the DLC's taking over this gen.. Where people say they are boycotting and all.. When in actuallity they become extremely popular none the less..

You think I give a damn about other people? I'm talking about me, they want my money, I demand certain things, I'll just stop buying games if I can't sell and or lend them out.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

If I can't sella product I buy to another person, I won't buy that product period. So instead of getting $60, the publisher can have zero. Pick Publishers, ball is in your court.

ActicEdge

This really isn't a legitimate defense.. This is like every other thing such as the DLC's taking over this gen.. Where people say they are boycotting and all.. When in actuallity they become extremely popular none the less..

You think I give a damn about other people? I'm talking about me, they want my money, I demand certain things, I'll just stop buying games if I can't sell and or lend them out.

yet you made this sound like a legitimate reason why the Publisher or dev should speciifcally listen to you.. When that isn't the case, money talks.. If they see a greater profit margin from this, they most likely will make a system around enforcing this.

I never said it was illegal right now.. Because there is no feasible way of enforcing it.. What I said is by next generation I expect a new system in which you have to register your license to your account permanently. . And its not that kind of legality.. You do not face criminal charges, what happens is the company who gave you that license to begin with has the right to relinquish it from you that is all.. All I said is there is a huge possibility that we will see this model enforced next gen.. Where each game is a unique with its own code you must register perma with your account.. That is all.. I hope that is not the case, but thats probably whats going to happen.sSubZerOo

So, You are saying its legal now, but soon they'll make it illegal? They don't get to decide. The courts do. And as I've stated several times to you, enforcement is REALLY easy right now, and they could deal with it at the source... the sellers themselves. That's a very feasible means of enforcement. The existence of gaming resale has nothing to do lack of an ability to control. It's lack of laws to prohibit it. And if you read the blurbs an earlier poster put up you'd realize that merely renaming a "Sale" to a "license" does not automatically constitute an actual change in status. They can print EULAs that say anything. They can call sales anything. But if they take away consumer's rights and are challenged, there is ample law that suggests the publishers would relent, not the consumers.

As I've repeatedly stated, these issues aren't new, they're the same arguments repackaged from battles over older media forms. And the laws governing those still apply. Can you think of a reason they shouldn't?

[QUOTE="coltsfan4ever"]

So why isnt GM crying about the used car sales industry? Im sick of people bashing used game sales. If a person legally buys a game and resales it thats their right. I wonder how many people who cry over used game sales buy second hand clothes,cars,homes,etc... I dont see anybody whining about KB Homes,Apple,GM,etc... not receiving a profit from their products being resold to other buyers.

sSubZerOo

Because they are not the same thing? :roll: A video game is a intellectual property which falls under a completely different set of standards..

Books, Music, Art are all intellectual property. Yet the rights of first sale still apply, and all have large resale markets. Legal resale markets, by the way.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="coltsfan4ever"]

So why isnt GM crying about the used car sales industry? Im sick of people bashing used game sales. If a person legally buys a game and resales it thats their right. I wonder how many people who cry over used game sales buy second hand clothes,cars,homes,etc... I dont see anybody whining about KB Homes,Apple,GM,etc... not receiving a profit from their products being resold to other buyers.

santoron

Because they are not the same thing? :roll: A video game is a intellectual property which falls under a completely different set of standards..

Books, Music, Art are all intellectual property. Yet the rights of first sale still apply, and all have large resale markets. Legal resale markets, by the way.

The only thing different is that video games being connected to the Internet have given publishers the idea that they can prevent you from selling to other people.

[QUOTE="svetzenlether"]

I love how the TC is completely ignoring any post that states there being a tolerated used market for every type of consumable product out there.

True_Gamer_

[QUOTE="santoron"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Because they are not the same thing? :roll: A video game is a intellectual property which falls under a completely different set of standards..

789shadow

Books, Music, Art are all intellectual property. Yet the rights of first sale still apply, and all have large resale markets. Legal resale markets, by the way.

The only thing different is that video games being connected to the Internet have given publishers the idea that they can prevent you from selling to other people.

Agreed. It will be very interesting to see the litigation that sprouts from the industry (and the Music, Books, and Movie industries for that matter) moving to a DD format. These companies are investing heavily with the idea that long term it will eliminate resale. It will be very interesting to see if the courts agree once they are forced to rule on it.

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"] Legal =/= beneficialPBSnipes

Why on Earth would you use cannabis as an example of legal =/= beneficial?

But I digress. Are you seriously arguing that laws like the first-sale doctrine aren't largely beneficial?

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"][QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

Um, what's your point?

Yeah, second-hand sales are legal. Thankyou capitalism.

FrozenLiquid

Piracy isn't justified. It may perhaps be a repercussion of capitalism, but it's not a justification.

Hey, next time you download a TV series, or download a movie, or rent a movie from a store, or use an instant streaming service for movies, you can be the bigger man and pay that particular movie studio (and the film production company) a share of the money from your enjoyment, because they don't receive a share of the profits (I can attest from first hand experience).

Likewise, the next time you buy a house, don't just pay the real estate agent and the previous owners, track down whoever built the house and pay them too. Same with your car. Same with anything else you buy second hand.

If you want to do it for games, you do it for every other consumable. Sound good?

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"] Legal =/= beneficialimprezawrx500

Why on Earth would you use cannabis as an example of legal =/= beneficial?

But I digress. Are you seriously arguing that laws like the first-sale doctrine aren't largely beneficial?

Not everything in an economy will be in your favor, ever.

[QUOTE="FrozenLiquid"]

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"] Capitalism is survival of the fittest....I guess piracy is justified in a world where few live like kings on the expense of others that starve,,,imprezawrx500

Piracy isn't justified. It may perhaps be a repercussion of capitalism, but it's not a justification.

Hey, next time you download a TV series, or download a movie, or rent a movie from a store, or use an instant streaming service for movies, you can be the bigger man and pay that particular movie studio (and the film production company) a share of the money from your enjoyment, because they don't receive a share of the profits (I can attest from first hand experience).

Likewise, the next time you buy a house, don't just pay the real estate agent and the previous owners, track down whoever built the house and pay them too. Same with your car. Same with anything else you buy second hand.

If you want to do it for games, you do it for every other consumable. Sound good?

As stated before, EULAs are very dodgy things. They have been appealed in courts several times. There's only been one case in which an EULA was ruled in the software licenser's favour, and that was when a non-owner tried to sell copies that he had never owned previously.

Somehow I highly doubt that every game sold is resold 3 times. The TC is probably exaggerating.

Now I will admit that used games are probably bad, but there are lots of used items sold that give no revenue to their companies and yet the companies still manage. As long as companies keep giving incentive to buy new like EA is doing, then they can counter this kind of trend.

[QUOTE="PBSnipes"]

[QUOTE="True_Gamer_"] Legal =/= beneficialimprezawrx500

Why on Earth would you use cannabis as an example of legal =/= beneficial?

But I digress. Are you seriously arguing that laws like the first-sale doctrine aren't largely beneficial?

LOL no. Devs can't lose money off of used games, as they never had a right to that money in the first place.

[QUOTE="santoron"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

You clearly don't know how intellectual property works.. Because the disc it self is worthless in the legal sense.. Its whats on the disc.. And yeah pc software does matter.. Because consoles games are the exact same.. Intellectual property... This is being enforced more and more.. And companies like Activision have been looking for ways to enforce it on the console..

sSubZerOo

You wouldn't have to enforce it on the console, you would enforce it at the very public place of sale for starters. The resale industry isn't operating in the shadows, you know...

You keep talking about cd keys and what not. It makes me think you've gotten this issue confused with piracy. The two are miles apart.

:| No cd keys are not just for piracy.. They are licensing.. When you use CD key for Starcraft 2.. It is permanently bound to a account.. And according to Blizzard ToS you are not suppose to have people use your account or sell your account.. If either ones occur, they are within their full legal rights of banning.. They don't go store to store because its pointless.. Physical copies mean nothing when they are enforcing licensing.. The only thing that means anything when it comes to intellectual property of this kind.. Thats why developers have become so fond of Steam.. Because it does the exact same things.. You can not trade or sell your steam account.. They will be banned of Valve catches wind of it.. And the physical discs are worthless with out their cd keys..

Somehow I highly doubt that every game sold is resold 3 times. The TC is probably exaggerating.

Now I will admit that used games are probably bad, but there are lots of used items sold that give no revenue to their companies and yet the companies still manage. As long as companies keep giving incentive to buy new like EA is doing, then they can counter this kind of trend.

Vaasman

The idea that I shouldn't be able to sell my games when or buy used games whenever I want is absurd. I don't see Paul McCartney whining that I bought the While Album from a used record store. I don't see George Lucas whining that I picked up Revenge of the Sith from a used DVD store. I don't see Stephen King whining about used book sales. Gaming is no different from any other art form. These developers cannot punish us for exercising our property rights, guaranteed by the First Sale Doctrine. The publisher is only entitled to what profits are made by the first sale of a given item. What happens to it after that initial sale is none of their damned business, just like Ford isn't going to see a dime if I want to sell my 1999 Escort.savebattery