what's this, "DX12 will have a substantial effect on XB1"?

NO...

DirectX 12 isn't yet supported by Android, but Google's rumoured Nexus 9 is due to launch next month and is set to launch with the DirectX 12-capable Nvidia Tegra K1. If mobile game developers switch to Metal, and Android gets less games as a result, Google could switch to DirectX 12 to boost their platform.

This ^^ is what your failed argument is based on a rumor,let me kill it like i always do with your pathetic made up crap and assumptions.

1-To use DX12 features you don't need DX12,those hardware features are support by other API already,like Bundles which is a DX12 feature and is already on OpenGL4.4

Example Partially Resident Textures which was supported by Opengl before than DX and then DX supported,those hardware features are not MS exclusive and they are feature on AMD and Nvidia hardware which is why both can access it and exploit it.

2-No what is been confirmed is that the Nexus 9 has a DX12 capable GPU,just like the PS4 has a DX11 GPU but don't use DX as api,OpengL is the standard in the phone and app market,and even if Apple came say we will support DX12 it self still Opengl would still be the most used since Android is the biggest platform actually much bigger than Ios and windows phones combined.

The Qualccom Soc support DX12 because Kepler does buffoon not because any other reason,and any of those features is easily accessible from OpenGL,in fact the version Apple is using is outdated the one the Nexus 9 will use is more advance.

At GDC in March, Khronos announced OpenGL ES 3.1 which brought a host of new graphics features to mobile 3D developers. This was a great step but NVIDIA knew that developers wanted more. Google answered the call with the Android Extension Pack (announced at Google IO in June) and NVIDIA is the first vendor to support AEP; AEP is available on the Nexus 9 and will be on SHIELD tablet when it updates to Android 5.0.

AEP adds full-scale OpenGL functionality and extensions including geometry shaders and tessellation. With OpenGL ES 3.1 and AEP, mobile developers can get desktop level rendering and implement advanced rendering methods such as global illumination and some techniques from AZDO. For those wanting to profile or debug 3D games and apps, be sure to check out NVIDIA's free Tegra Graphics Debugger.

https://developer.nvidia.com/content/android-lollipop-and-nexus-9-launch-officially-unveiling-nvidia-tegra-k1-64-bit

Your dreams destroyed. hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Yet several games on the 360 including Metro 2033 and gears 3 used CPU based AA to aid thew 360 to great effect.

And the CPU in the Xbox one is not the same as the CPU in the PS4, the CPU in the Xbox one runs Faster than the CPU in the PS4.

And the cloud CAN improve the xbones graphics by freeing up processor resources that the xbone can use for graphics, it's basic common sense dude.

it's funny, the xbone has only been out a year and you guys are calling MS out for not delivering what they said they would YET.

You are gonna all end up looking stupid for jumping the Gun if they do deliver within the Xbones life span.

Don't make the huge mistake of thinking that just because they have not done it YET that they will not achieve it, they will and deep down inside you know they will.

it's microsoft, they will throw money at it till it works, something SONY is not in a position to do.

Kinda funny Cows talking about Microsoft over promising and undelivering because over promising and under delivering is EXACTLY what SONY did last gen with the Ps3.

4D graphics at 120 FPS ring a bell? a promise SONY NEVER delivered on, lol

All companys over promise and underdeliver but fanboys are the only ones who Whine about such insignificant things, not exactly a world ender if a company doesn't deliver on it's promise is it?

Specifically, Qualcomm Snapdragon 615, 808 and 805 supports AEP and OpenGL ES 3.1.

https://developer.qualcomm.com/mobile-development/maximize-hardware/mobile-gaming-graphics-adreno/adreno-gpu

Samsung Galaxy S5 uses Snapdragon 805.

I already proved that you are WRONG i even quote freaking MS talking about Bringing xbox one API to PC so yeah you are the one in need of proving something.

We implemented it on Xbox 360 and had a whole lot of ideas on how to make that more efficient [and with] a cleaner API, so we took that opportunity with Xbox One and with our customised command processor we've created extensions on top of D3D which fit very nicely into the D3D model and this is something that we'd like to integrate back into mainline 3D on the PC too - this small, very low-level, very efficient object-orientated submission of your draw [and state] commands.

We’re continually innovating in areas of performance, functionality and debug and performance tooling for Xbox One.We’re also working with our ISV and IHV partners on future efforts, including bringing the lightweight runtime and tooling capabilities of the Xbox One Direct3D implementation to Windows, and identifying the next generation of advanced 3D graphics technologies.

When you prove this ^^^ wrong you will have a point.

DX12 is about CPU efficiency which consoles have being know for always,this is not new and pretending other wise is grasping..

Interestingly, Engel revealed that, “The Xbox One already has an API which is similar to DirectX 12. So Microsoft implemented a driver that is similar to DirectX 12 already on the Xbox One. That freed up a lot of CPU time.

DX12 what does is what Mantle is doing bringing lower CPu over head to PC which on consoles have always being that way,so hey do me a favor and prove me wrong prove to me that lower CPU over hasn't been a console advantage over PC for year,prove to me that draw call weren't superior on consoles compare to PC for that same reason the ball is in your court.

Oh for god sake DX12 is not a complete new language of tools that change the way developers have been doing games for years you freaking idiot,that would take years and developers learning basically a new language,DX12 is a refinement of something already done,and most of the gains bring to PC are already on consoles because console had being for years more efficient than PC at this,only a moron will deny this.

Where the fu** do i say GTA is a DX12 game.? Quote me moron,i quoted some one who worked on GTA and which co founded a middleware company which also support the xbox one.

The guy trolled every one and was banned for it,he use to be reliable you on the other hand claimed the PS4 was pass this holiday in US and you were WRONG..hahahaha

Steam is not owned by MS moron,is a store which runs on windows,much like Amazon runs on explorer,firefox,chrome and any other browser,tagging Steam alone side the xbox one is a joke,because i could say the same steam has more games and the PS4 than i can't play else where.

I have a PC moron,i don't have an xbox one because as of now is basically a redundant crap for me,the xbox 360 i owned it and the original xbox from day 1,there is no need to own this one i already own a PC and a PS4,and MS pickings are slim on the unit,Halo has been going down since 343 took over,and i don't like Forza,the only game i would really like to play is Sunset over drive and from the rumors around the net is coming to PC.

I make you sick because i make you look like a complete biased fool,i have owned all consoles just like you buffoon but the xbox one and wii u because i don't see them fitting my gaming needs any more,the xbox 360 was strong cheap to a point,and had better games its first year than the xbox one,the wii had better games than the wii u to from day 1.

I am not buying a console for just 2 games.

That is true.

Yeah but Descritor head is nothing more that the integration of bindless resources in direct3d something opengl already has.

It also happen with other features as well of DX12,and much like Tile Resources that was something lately adopted by MS it is a hardware feature of a GPU which tend to be supported faster by Opengl than by MS DX,then MS come and act as if it was something new and even naming it differently.

Like happen with Tile Resources and Partially Resident textures,and Descriptor Heads and Bindless Resources.

No dude it is the same CPU and runs just a few mhz faster which aren't even enough to make a 3 FPS difference on stronger line of CPU much less this one.

Gear of war 3 didn't have AA dude,in fact it uses heavy motion blur to cover the jaggies making things blur at times.

Metro did had post process AA,but it was all basically that could be done,to give you and example Turn 10 stated that Forza 4 used 2 threads for sound on xbox 360,on PS3 that only took 1 SPE for sound and was enough to do 7.1 loss less sound.

No is not that is the fact that what is been imply is that the XBO will get incredible performance boost some here even claim it will pass the PS4,which is a total lie.

It doesn't cost 1 billion to make your hardware work efficiently dude,is not about money that is completely sad to say and incredibly stupid,the only way MS can trow its money and close gain parity is by paying developers to sabotage PS4 games,or buying and releasing a refresh xbox one with better specs,other wise no software MS does will make for the gap in hardware.

The PS3 had a weaker GPu yet the best looking games i say it over deliver in that front,specially when MS in 2005 was screaming to the wins that the xbox 360 was more powerful and faster than the PS3 and the PS3 wasn't even here on that year.

Sony didn't promise 4d graphics nor promise all games will run at 120FPS,you can go back and search for that shit and is not actual claim of all games doing that,but if MS promise 720p with 4XAA for all games something that was 1 million times more achievable than 4d and 120 fps and didn't deliver since day 1 why should we care about the stupidity sony may have say.

Remember who started with the false claims and over bloated specs.? Because i do...

Microsoft shifted up from the X86 to a custom triple-core, dual-threaded PowerPC for its Xbox 360 which the company claims delivers 1-teraflop performance.

SAN JOSE, Calif. — Microsoft Corp. shifted up from the X86 to a custom triple-core, dual-threaded PowerPC for its Xbox 360 which the company claims delivers 1 teraflop of system-level, floating-point performance. The system marks a further step in the evolution of video game consoles into powerful home entertainment servers.

http://www.informationweek.com/custom-powerpc-drives-new-xbox-360-to-teraflop-performance/d/d-id/1032696?

The PS3 spec were unknown by this time..lol

You haven't proven crap, you just keep on going in circles spewing misinformation with your twisted comprehension. You have an issue with reading? because the quotes I posted is from your own "proof", read 3rd and 4th paragraphs LINK

Why you so afraid of any positive effect even if it is slight? Are you jealous?

Prove to me that consoles CPU have not been more efficient that PC ones..

I'm still waiting...

Twisted my ass moron,MS claimed it would bring xbox one efficiency to PC period is there in black and white is not my fault you are to hard headed to admit it,by that time nothing was know about DX12,the game MS used to demo DX12 Forza 5 a xbox one game which had problems running on PC using DX11 but after they switch to DX12 the frames were improved it was one of their demos,Forza 5 way before that was already 60FPS on xbox one.

Yeah read the last one moron it clearly state MS has an API similar to it,is DX12 out.? No is the xbox one out yes.? Then what Api is model after what.?

Why the fu** i be jealous of an APi that is late to do what others do first.? But but but Bundles descriptor heads all that crap already on Opengl 4.4 and 4.5 without need to wait until the holiday of 2015...

Is the reason Opengl always >>>>>>>>>> DX,by the time DX implement something already Opengl has implement it years ago,same shit happen with PRT which Opengl support since 2011 in hardware and MS didn't adopt until DX11.2 in 2013..lol

That is what happen when you try to time your graphics api with windows releases to force people to update your OS.

We know that DX 12 will have a fairly strong impact on PC games when it launches late next year but will it have the same technical impact on the Xbox One?

Interestingly, Engel revealed that, “The Xbox One already has an API which is similar to DirectX 12. So Microsoft implemented a driver that is similar to DirectX 12 already on the Xbox One. That freed up a lot of CPU time.”

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

They are talking directly about the impact of DX12 on xbox one read the first sentence.

The second one is the confirmation the xbox one already has an api like that FREE not that will free latter on,.no that FREE up ALLOT of CPU time..

Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

Sad lemming...

Anything the xbox one can do by API the PS4 can do it as well,and the other way around..lol

The only difference is one would still be stronger always.

@tormentos: Regardless, DX12 obviously improves the efficiency of hardware utilization, hence improving game performance.

You consistently state the opposite.

And, who says MS is going to let Sony use their APIs?

But while everyone is taking this quote and twisting it to be very negative. They conveniently leave out the other part of the statement, which says it will unlock more capability for devs. Which means, there are still things left to be unlocked within the Xbox One. So devs aren’t painting with their full palette. Lets move on to the second post that is often quoted. This comes from an interview with my friends from the TiC podcast.

"On the DX12 question, I was asked early on by people if DX12 is gonna dramatically change the graphics capabilities of Xbox One and I said it wouldn’t. I’m not trying to rain on anybody’s parade, but the CPU, GPU and memory that are on Xbox One don’t change when you go to DX12. DX12 makes it easier to do some of the things that Xbox One’s good at, which will be nice and you’ll see improvement in games that use DX12, but people ask me if it’s gonna be dramatic and I think I answered no at the time and I’ll say the same thing.”

If you dissect what he is saying. He clearly says its not going to change the CPU, GPU, or memory. The capabilities of the machine aren’t going to change because the hardware can’t change. Anyone with half a brain already knew this. Hardware is physical. Software is what runs on hardware. DX12 is software that unlocks more optimizations & capabilities of the hardware. Again, everyone liked to quote this paragraph while conveniently leaving out the statement where he says you’ll see improvement in games that use DX12. The day they flip the switch, again its not like everything and every game is going to look 100X better. But it does flip the switch for developers to start taking full advantage of the system and what its capable of.

That's from your very own link O_o did you even read it, lmao?

he is clearly pointing out that dx12 WILL have a positive effect on the games that use it in the future because the games being made now aren't using all the tools the console has to use yet...because they're still locked as of now. So when dx12 releases and unlocks those unique tools the XB1 has in waiting games can then be optimized even more so than they are being optimized now, smh. My god cows are dim....why would you send this to me as if it disproves anything?? It in fact verifies everything lmao.

Wow.. lots of meltdowns in this thread. It'll be real interesting to how mow many more meltdowns happen once Win10 & DX12 are actually on the XB1.

but it's not going to have the big impact everyone is saying it does, now will it?

It won't have a big impact if your only method of measure is frame rate and resolution. If thats the only way you judge game performance then thats pretty sad. It obviously will increase cpu and render pipeline performance. How that increase manifest is up in the air and solely dependent on the design of the game engine.

Pretty much anything could have a significant effect on a XB1...
Anyway, empty words.

huh? do you not understand that X1 is not using a API specifically made from the ground up for the hardware.

Need proof? look at Alien isolation, Shadow of Mordor, or any other multiplat game that is locked at 30 fps. With DX11 only one core is only being used in feeding the gpu the data hence the lower performance vs pc hardware that has a faster cpu but comparable gpu. If all cores were used in feeding the gpu you wouldn't see the 30 fps cap dip into the 20's.

Do you realize that DX11 on pc is hell of alot more bloated then it is on the X1, The modified DX11 on the X1 has been slimmed down to bypass most of the overhead. Yea it does have a few of upcoming features in full blown dx 12, however DX 11.X the X1 API is a superset of DX 11.2, not the upcoming 11.3 or DX12...

However again do not ignore the inherent cpu to gpu communication limitation of dx11 that they did not redo. DX 12 brings more efficiency and allows all the cores to feed data to the gpu.

Its funny you think X1 is using DX12 or Dx12 like API when in fact all info shows that X1 does not use it, its modified DX 11.2.

If your not jealous why are you making shit up, twisting facts and attacking any upcoming gains from dx12 for the X1 even if it only supplies more cpu cycles per clock to be put else where.

You think Opnegl is better? John carmack does not think so ever since DX11. "John Carmack admits that DirectX has become the better API" "OpenGL has been held back by compatibility concerns, Carmack said."

Why do you think Apple is moving away from opengl? Opengl is not being updated like it should, and is limiting developers."its a grab bag of broken inconsistent functionality” without standard hardware definitions"

Also The PS4's implementation of Opengl es is not used by developers. The low level API is not remotely related to Opengl.

Why do you bring up PRT support with opengl?, hell opengl didnt support tessellation until 2010 when MS supported it with DX11 back in 2009.

Its up to the developers and the game engines that they are using determines if features like PRT, tessellation or anything else is used.

"That is what happen when you try to time your graphics api with windows releases to force people to update your OS."

lol really? No one forces developers to use Direct x, they can use opengl all they want in windows, mac or linux, fact is that opengl is not as good as you think it is. MS forcing people to update to new OS's is no difference in people having to buy new consoles to play the new games.... Also MS is allowing all Win 7 and Win 8 users to upgrade to Windows 10 for free per device.

If the current API can only get you to 55fps, and DX12 allows you to lock in 60fps, that's a "big deal" because the studio can then release the game at 60fps, instead of locking it at 30fps. But, in terms of actual performance, it's only a 10% increase.

@StormyJoe: i should have used different words, but that's what i meant. It doesn't have that big of an effect as people think it will have. As it stands now. Games on the X1 have performance issues compared to PS4, look at Witcher 3. 900p on X1

If anyone wants a constant special dose of crazy feel free to jump into the lemming pool of delirium by following this guy's twitter

I would dip your elbows in first just in case it's not for you

@tormentos You may want to check this out at GDC

http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/advanced-directx12-graphics-and-performance-presented-by-microsoft

Advanced DirectX12 Graphics and Performance (Presented by Microsoft)

Max McMullen | Principal Development Lead, MicrosoftLocation: Room 2008, West HallDate: Thursday, March 5Time: 5:30pm - 6:30pmFormat: Sponsored SessionTrack: ProgrammingVault Recording: TBD

DirectX12 enables next generation games to deliver better performance with greater flexibility and control. This technical session goes deep into the DirectX12 APIs you can use to reduce CPU rendering overhead, manage GPU resource usage more efficiently, and express the most cutting-edge 3D graphics possible across the spectrum of Windows 10 devices. Whether you are building a game for the phone, PC, or Xbox - you don't want to miss this talk.

How are we still having a conversation on DX12 when Phil has already said it won't be a gamechanger graphic wise? Its going to help but it won't bring miracles.

I am so lost.

I see people talking about what DX12 will do to PC and tablets and saying they expect the same thing. It isn't the case.

because they are lems, they are still arguing that ps4 is not more powerful, that the cloud actually makes any difference and that teh directx12 will be the second coming of jesus.

Ignorance, misinformation and bullshit, that's all they do.

@magicalclick: Devs won't have the choice.. It's being built directly into the top 3rd party engines (unreal etc)..

Ever wonder why epic games hasn't shown anything Xbox one related even though they're very close to Microsoft? Something wicked this way comes....

Binding model is another issue besides my comments on improving the performance with descriptor heaps and tables which allows resources to be dynamically indexed in shaders.

Xbox One's DirectX 11.X has features missing from DirectX 12 e.g. resource binding model, pipeline state object for shaders.

With AMD Direct3D Futures example, it shows CPU efficiency gains also impacts the GPU.

1)Yes.

2-The sky was leave on the main memory pool because the skybox is totally static and dead,if it had dynamic sky it would need to be place on ESRAM.

3-It was downgrade from the E3 presentation.

4-The xbox one API was there from launch,the xbox one had a GPU reservation and some tools were not mature enough,Forze 5 PC demo used DX12 and was done to show how easy the game was ported from from XBO to PC,does that tell you something when the actual DX on xbox one is 11.x.? Basically one of the things DX12 will do is allow easier porting but if DX12 is not on XBO how come Turn 10 make a demo to show how easy it was porting to it.?

5-Because it has a high cost to performance,The PS3 could do adaptive tessellation to it just did it in Cell,few games use it to for that same reason,in this case we are talking about an API to lower CPU over head an increase performance,by the way lower level over head is build in on the only API the xbox one has DX11.x.

6-DX12 is basically on xbox one it one had a few features missing,which have been tag to hardware which the xbox one lack to fully support it,this has been stated by MS it self the xbox one already has DX12 features,because features like lower CPU over head and better draw calls are features of consoles,which consoles have for years including the 360 and PS3.

The Forza 5 demo was the star of the presentation, designed to show how console-level efficiency is possible on the PC. Bizarrely, according to Nvidia, the demo ran on Titan Black hardware - the most powerful single-chip graphics card on the market, and possibly not quite the best hardware to demonstrate an efficient console port.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-directx-12-revealed-coming-to-xbox-one

You people should know this by now instead of pretending that lower CPU over head better draw calls and all that shit is actually a feature of DX12 new to gaming,not only mantle does the same and is out unlike DX12,but Mantle took it from the xbox one or PS4 because those are gains in consoles ported to PC,CPU on consoles are already efficient because they don't have to keep any legacy with 200 diiferent CPU and GPU's.

Hell i still think that the CPU over head on xbox one is actually better than on DX12 which still has legacy attach to it just not as much as before.

This brings us to the crux of the matter: what’s not being said. Simply put, what would happen if you ported both the high level and low level APIs from a console – say the Xbox One – back over to the PC? We already know what that high level API would look like, because it exists today in the form of Direct3D 11.2, an API peppered with new features that coincide with AMD GCN hardware features. But what about a low level API? What would it look like?

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

I don't even know how people ignore article like this.

Basically both DX12 and Mantle are pulled from consoles,sure both have some new features,but the ones about better CPU over head which was the whole footing for the 2X performance in frames claims came from consoles.

7-They have been easy to do for years,DX has never had a problem of been hard to learn or use,in fact the xbox 360 was a walk on the park compare to how bad it was to code for the PS3 which time to triangle a game was like a year,compare that to the PS1 which was 3 months,DX12 now is easier but i don't thinks to a point were it would make a huge impact,is all MS word to well try to convince developers to use the xbox one as lead platforms and not the PS4,which now is also very easy to code to,everything is done for a reason in this market.

DX12 biggest feature to far is lower CPU over head which the xbox one already has.

Please read my reply @magicalclick in this same post as i am not going to past it again.

Read and read well,the CPU over head bring to DX12 is already on mantle Mantle took it from the xbox one API or PS4 one pick one,the sudden urge to have lower CPU over head on PC come more from a draw call limitation than actually increasing performance of CPU which on PC are already strong enough to run any game on PC.

One again prove that CPU lower over head doesn't come from consoles,hell i still think the xbox one API is more effective than DX12 because no matter what targeting 1 hardware specs is better than targeting 50.

It should bring some fixes and some improvements but nothing even close to the 2X crap that was stated on PC and which many of you still believe.

Because most of what DX12 bring is already on xbox one,and you people refuse to admit this when even MS it self stated it took things from the xbox one API to insert it on PC,and in what place those features pull will be inserted in.? DX12.

Oh please if Sony want to use DX MS would do shit,just like sony PC used windows my god there is a licensing system for that,but sony doesn't need it they already have one better.

Gotta love it, there's something about all this DX12 SS that seems to scare the bejesus out of Xbox anti fans, keep it comin, good stuff. :P

maybe people are alergic to all the bullshit lems are making.

@tormentos: Sure, sure they do...

I never said "2X". 10% might be possible.

Sometimes it's best... to sit back and watch the show. Especially in this situation.

There is way to much conflicting information surrounding this. At this point.

I have had Tormentos actually tell me in this thread... Writing code for a specific API from the ground up in DX12... will not help games on the X1. The API is already in the X1 he says... Yet, there are no games on the market that are written in DX12 engines. "You don't need those engines for the X1. They have been doing this for years on consoles." derp

The Xbox One hardware is specifically built around future DX...."that's from Microsoft's own mouth" Everything about the api in X1 is DX. It's either legacy DX11.2- or an unfinished DX12 API... With all evidence so far pointing to DX12... as the finish line.

With developers bitching and confused why Microsoft choose to build the console around the DX11.... API in the first place. With him stating you don't have to do this on consoles. The Metro developer interview on Eurogamer. The guy specifically states it is NOT a custom API, that it is infact legacy DX11. That counters everything dumbass is saying here.

This is the kind of shit you have to read on here. How do you even start to argue with a person with those beliefs?

If you meant to say all the spreading of Cow Manure concerning X1 than yes, agreed. :P

Right @tormentos

Oles Shishkovstov: Let's put it that way - we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One (and that's surely on the 'mono' driver with several fast-path calls utilised). Then, the same scenario on PS4, it was actually difficult to find those draw-calls in the profile graphs, because they are using almost no time and are barely visible as a result.In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all? On PS4, most GPU commands are just a few DWORDs written into the command buffer, let's say just a few CPU clock cycles. On Xbox One it easily could be one million times slower because of all the bookkeeping the API does.But Microsoft is not sleeping, really. Each XDK that has been released both before and after the Xbox One launch has brought faster and faster draw-calls to the table. They added tons of features just to work around limitations of the DX11 API model. They even made a DX12/GNM style do-it-yourself API available - although we didn't ship with it on Redux due to time constraints.

On the DX12 question, I was asked early on by people if DX12 is gonna dramatically change the graphics capabilities of Xbox One and I said it wouldn’t.

There is a very clear dot there,end of sentence he was asked if DX12 would dramatically change the graphics capability of the xbox one and he say it Wouldn't period,what he latter say is explaining why it would not change the graphics capabilities drastically.

I’m not trying to rain on anybody’s parade, but the CPU, GPU and memory that are on Xbox One don’t change when you go to DX12.

This ^^ is explaining why it would not change the graphics drastically because regardless of been a more efficient api the xbox one hardware is fixed it can't pass certain point in performance,or increase it pass its theoretical maximum.

DX12 makes it easier to do some of the things that Xbox One’s good at, which will be nice and you’ll see improvement in games that use DX12, but people ask me if it’s gonna be dramatic and I think I answered no at the time and I’ll say the same thing.”

And yeah the confirmation of what DX12 will do,make easier to do some things that the xbox one is good at,but been a dramatic change no he still stand by his answer before which is no...

lol... Just 2 big ones your and your alter ego B4X..

That is a CPU over head improvement which already is inside the xbox one,so yeah DX12 will not do that for the xbox one,and i still think DX11.X on xbox one is more efficient than DX12 on PC,because fixed hardware is 1 target and on PC Dx12 is targeting many,is the same reason some articles claims that Mantle will be able to get a few more cycles than DX12 on AMD hardware,than DX12 because the targets are much less for AMD,while DX12 benefits a wider number of hardware,legacy is a performance killer my friends.

What about that.? Is an invitation to watch MS development conference,it happen all years at GDC were have you been for the past 10 years.?

Sony will be there to and many other companies.

Unreal works on PS4 to.

No dude Descriptor heads is MS take on Binding resources,much like you argue that PRT and Tile Resources wasn't the same thing once when they were.

The final major addition to Direct3D 12 is descriptor heaps. Going back to 2012, one of the features introduced on NVIDIA’s then-new Kepler architecture was bindless resources, which bypassed the previous 128 slot limitation on resources (textures, etc). Through bindless an essentially infinite number of resources could be addressed, at a performance penalty, though an additional layer of indirection in memory accesses.

Descriptor heaps in turn appear to be the integration of bindless resources in Direct3D 12. Microsoft does not specifically call descriptor heaps bindless, but the description of slots and draw calls makes it clear that they’re intending to solve the problem with the bindless solution.With descriptor heaps and descriptor tables to reside in those heaps, Direct3D 12 will be able to perform bindless operations, both expanding the number of resources available to shader programs, and even outright dynamic indexing of resources.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7889/microsoft-announces-directx-12-low-level-graphics-programming-comes-to-directx/2

@tormentos: Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that even though you know nothing about software development, you are a master of all things "tech"...

Seriously, do you read what you write? You know more than everyone, huh? DX11 is better than DX12? Got any links that back that up, or is is based on the years of development work you have done in DX11?

i guess we should just leave well alone and let him sour some more. He clearly does not understand that DX12 is more efficient then dx11.2

I don't even think 10% on something that is highly efficient,and like i told you i still think the XBO version is more efficient than PC because of legacy.

You should stop.

DX12 is not a new API that completely rewrites and changed what DX11 was doing,else developer would take years learning it,Dx12 is a refinement of the wheel not a whole new wheel.

The biggest changes DX12 bring which has being the most advertised by MS by far is CPU over head which already exist on xbox one you walking salami because the xbox one is a damn console,i have quote several articles talking about CPU over head already is what consoles has have for YEARS.

Now if you weren't such a butthurt lemming you would see it.

MS stated it self that the damn freaking api will not i repeat will not drastically change graphics so basically the argument is dead.

It will help the xbox one with some things like any new and more refine api does,and like the PS4 will do when a new api refresh comes like it did with the PS3,it always happen,hell sony is now more interested in talking about facebook and integration in GDC than power because no matter what MS does they will be behind.

The xbox one GPU is GCN 1.1 it was build in 2011,there is no DX crap being build around,MS always build the unit to support DX is their api,from there to claim other things is just bullshit.

And last i remember when Phil was directly asked about full DX12 compatibility he didn't say yes,he side stepped the question and stated that they know what DX12 was doing when they build the xbox one,that isn't a confirmation he basically eluded the question.

That odds because a middle ware vendor already stated other wise and claim the xbox one has a similar API to DX12,and others developers have sites have done the same as well,including DF and anadtech to name some.

But is funny to see you for the second time pretending that you are not arguing this and that you are neutral Blackace we all know your are not and you just contradict that again in this post i quoted..

You are not seating back enjoying the show you are arguing for DX12 just now buffoon..

Stop the bullshit DX12 will still have limitation because it is a freaking API with LAGACYYYYYY...

You know what Legacy means right.?

It means that hardware older than the xbox one get supported,in the case of Mantle that is not a problem since it only support GCN and up,on DX12 side the Nvidia side alone support way more GPU so the more legacy you have the more your performance is hurt,and even your own freaking article stated so.

Not to say that were apologist for MS in the whole metro crap downplaying the 1080p version vs the 912p xbox one version.

In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all?

From your own article ^^..

At GDC 2014, Microsoft and Nvidia have taken the lid off DirectX 12 — the new API that promises to deliver low-level, Mantle-like latencies with vastly improved performance and superior hardware utilization compared to DX11. Even better, DirectX 12 (and D3D 12) are backwards compatible with virtually every single GPU from the GTX 400 to the present day.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/178904-directx-12-detailed-backwards-compatible-with-all-recent-nvidia-gpus-will-deliver-mantle-like-capabilities

That ^^^ is legacy no matter what DX12 will never eveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer be as slim as the PS4 API because not matter what still is tied to legacy is just smaller legacy than DX11 was.

And from your own article he claim the last api update wasn't on his hands so how could he know how much it would keep improving.? Remember that there was a GPU reservation kill when Metro was been done which did boost the xbox one,more than any API did.

Even with the latest drives the xbox one continues to get inferior games,SOM,DA and in the worse case PES which was 720p on xbox one 1080p on PS4 and was release 2 months ago.

So once again you parody of a poster stop arguing and do what you falsely claim to do be neutral and not argue on either side because what you are doing now is all the contrary to what you claim doing.

Keep chumming the waters... I'm right here CBOAT... I can almost taste it.

@tymeservesfate: Do you actually expect Microsoft to say that DX12 won't do anything for the Bone?

This thread is a complete waste of time. Of course Microsoft is going to praise their hardware and software.

Ooohhh boy!! E3 is going to be fun this year.

And you don't understand sony hater is that lower cpu over head is a feature of consoles you blind biased lermit,and that DX12 is getting it from consoles not the other way around,and i am still waiting for you to prove me wrong.

Console efficiency exist after all the shit you argue denying it look at it Mantle is using and DX12 is after it for PC,on consoles yeah been there done that..

All i know is that you claim that the difference would be from 3 to 5 frames,that @04dcarraher claimed mostly 10 and dismiss my 7770 vs 7850 comparison because the xbox one had a 256bit bus.

In the end both of you were serve a freaking huge plate of crow both,differences as big as 30FPS,then seeing @04dcarraher pretend that games on PC are measure on a minimum frame basis rather than on average,because he helped his case in Tomb Raider,was freaking epic he wanted to claim that the xbox one was 30 the PS4 34 because that is the lowest the PS4 went for 1 second,so that was representative of what you would get.

Poster like you people are a joke,you claim to know more about software than any one because you use freaking net,get a fu**ing clue if you code as bad as you are you should be a freaking worthless coders,you guesstimates were WRONG and i don't get tire of trowing it to your face because on one wise you say the PS4 is more powerful probably with a cringe face,but on the other side try to act like MS API are magical and will close a freaking 600Gflops gap,a 100% ROP difference as well a more straight forward memory design.

Did i claim DX11 is better than DX12.? Because from what i know the DX11 i am arguing is the one on xbox one,which isn't the same on PC.

Avery thing MS is doing now with DX12 is basically a reaction wot what other companies did.

So DX12 will bring some new CPU over gains..?

AMD unveils revolutionary 'Mantle' API to optimize GPU performance.

http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd-unveils-revolutionary-mantle-api-to-optimize-gpu-performance.html

Yeah direct response to Mantle..

Oh DX12 will allow for faster porting of games from xbox one to PC.?

Cerny: It Takes 2 Months to Get a AAA PC Game Running On PS4

Anecdotally for the indie titles I’ve been hearing 4 weeks to bring a game from PC to the PS4, which is quite fast. For some of the AAA titles I’ve been hearing 2 months, which is also quite fast, and that has really helped us in creating that strong launch line-up.

http://www.craveonline.com/gaming/articles/537873-cerny-it-takes-2-months-to-get-a-aaa-pc-game-running-on-ps4

A direct response to the PS4 ease of use.

Listen well how he say that bundles is a great new feature of D3D 12,and by second 51 he say something he HEAVILY USE ON XBOX ONE. How the fu** they can use Bundles on xbox one if DX12 isn't there.? You know Forza 5 was a freaking launch game right.? So before launch Turn 10 was using bundles a feature of DX12 alone side lower cpu over head @b4x_ did you hear that blackace.?

The tables is newer on d3d than on xbox one but as you can see trying to pretend that DX11 is nothing like DX12 is a joke is not like MS created a new language in DX12.

You people should stop the bullshit i can't just wait for DX12 to arrive on PC and see your sorry ass excuse when the console continues to trail the PS4 performance wise.

Seeing you quote your self multiple times as if that proved you were right..hahahaa

@tormentos: HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!! Back to the 3 to 5 frames, huh? A point that I made 5 months before this gen launched, and I openly retracted before the current gen launched?

Desperation, meet Tormentos...

I suppose, in a round about way, you are really making me look like a rock star poster since you have to go back a year to find a point I made that was incorrect. Thanks?

@tormentos:

This is another great point this is MS sony would also do the same about its hardware,people really expect MS to come and say we get some small gains nothing big carry one.

Dx12 is about over hyping their late ass api,same shit with every DX they release which they hype it to be the greatest and end of been close to the same with some new things that others like OpenGL already implemented.

Case and point bundles and binding resources which Opengl has and is here without having to way to late 2015,and not attached to a buy a new version of windows policy that MS love to use with DX releases.

I point which i heavily insisted you were wrong and you ignore it..

Parting for the very best performance you can get from both GPU the xbox one will always be behind,that is the point and in some part as much as 15 or 20 FPS going by PC benchmarks which is the reason many games on xbox one can't deliver the same resolution as the PS4 which is what i told you would happen.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/778?vs=777

All because you refuse to admit this ^^..

There is a hardware disparity on this 2 consoles which can't be close by software period.

'Sony didn't promise 4d graphics nor promise all games will run at 120FPS,you can go back and search for that shit and is not actual claim of all games doing that,but if MS promise 720p with 4XAA for all games something that was 1 million times more achievable than 4d and 120 fps and didn't deliver since day 1 why should we care about the stupidity sony may have say.'

By that logic Microsoft didn't promise anything either.

I get it, when SONY says it its just stupid PR speak that we should not care about but when MS says it it's a promise that they should be held to account for.

Why do you apply different rules for Microsoft? the same rules should apply for both companys, if SONY does it and it isn't a promise then it ain't a promise when MS doe the same kind of PR talk.

This is the Vibe i am getting.

SONY PR Speak= 'stupid things we should not care about'

MS PR speak='promises they should be held to account for'

Your hypocrisy is just mind blowing dude, you apply COMPLETELY different standards to both companys

SONY loses Several million account details=no big deal, SONY is still a god.

MS loses a few thousand account details= End of the world , Microsoft is shit.

this is why i cannot take you seriously any more dude, i sometimes find it hard to believe that we are the same Age quite frankly.

The same rules and standards apply to everyone across the board or they don't apply to anyone.

Tell me Tormentos, do you apply a different set of rules and standards to each of your children or do they all have to follow the same rules?

Yeah. I was wrong. One a single point, a year ago. LOL!

I never said that software would change the fact that the PS4 has more raw muscle. Raw specs are not necessarily indicative of the final picture. If you new anything about software development, you'd know that. That extra power may not equate to "better graphics". If you new anything about software development, you'd know that too.

Sony hater?, lermit? lol your are so delusional, need to take off those Sony goggles, because I rip on both the PS4 and X1 for what they are, however you are known overzealous Cow.....

What you seem to not understand or just seem to ignore that DX 11.X for the X1 is a superset of DX 11.2, which means even with the modifications and slimming down 11.2 overheads. Does not mean DX12 cant increase efficiency over DX11 at its core.... fact that DX12 also allows even more multithreading properties/options means that DX11.X is not DX12.

Do you even understand why console's API is more efficient and has less overhead over Pc's DX? , they dont have to spend cpu time in the checks and sums making sure the software and hardware's compatibility being able to communicate and work together despite the numerous configurations. DX 12 for pc narrows down the gpu hardware its compatible with removing some of the bloat from dx9/10 era hardware coding. And being more efficient along with a true multithreading base for communicating with the gpu. Direct x 12 for the X1 will allow the true multithreading base for communicating with the gpu, and add abit more efficiency over the DX 11 base their using now. Even if DX 12 is only 5,10, or 15% more efficient per clock vs Dx11 it is a gain. Even though its slight every bit helps. You stating that PS4's API is more better then X1? really? lol PS4 has the same damn issue in only using a primary single core in feeding the gpu.

Once Sony updates and fixes that issue that MS is doing with Dx12 the PS4 will be ahead even further. No matter what MS does to the X1 it will always be behind the PS4 graphically and fps averages.