what's this, "DX12 will have a substantial effect on XB1"?

@tormentos: all android games are ports of iOS games. Apple is no longer using OpenGL as its Api, in the past opengl was the goto app because it was supported across pc, android, and ios. Android may have the biggest user base but Apple is where the money is which is why devs put games up on the Apple App Store first, then port to android. With Apple having its own Api that means it will take longer for devs to get their games on all systems. Google did'nt have an Api devs just used opengl because it was common on both iOS and Android. Even still there are games that you can get on iOS that you can't get on android, like bioshock for one. So if devs are making games for Apple using Apple metal and games for windows using dx12, that would make android have to wait longer. Android may have a bigger install base but they don't make as much money from their apps as Apple does. Apple will always get games and apps first, that's just the way it goes. Apple Metal is a direct shot at android, if apps start taking longer to get to android Apple people will start to see Apple as the better choice, which it already is. Next you have dx12 across pc, windows, windows phones, and Xbox. If you were a dev and you wanted to maximize profits which route would you go 1st, Metal and Dx12, which would get your game on 5 platforms, or opengl on android, where everyone roots their phones and uses apps like Apk Galaxy, and Aptoide to get free games. You don't even have to root an android phone to get free apps. So do you think android developers will stay using OpenGL or convert to a more supported API like dx, seeing as how the major vendor of all android socs already makes dx compatible socs? Google can't adopt Metal, but the chip in their nexus 9 supports dx, most android games use UE or Unity which already have built in dx12 support.

So according to your post android has its own Api now. So if android has its own Api, iOS has its own API, and windows has its own API where does that leave OpenGL?

Relevant

@Vatusus:Two problems I have with that video:

1. I haven't read any Xbox "fanboys" saying DX12 will make the XB1 better than PS4, they say it will bring parity
2. No one is saying the PS4's CPU is "garbage", just that the XB1's is clocked higher

But, I haven't seen any YouTube videos. I am just talking about SW.

Everything else was spot on.

MS stated on its 2005 conference that every xbox 360 game would minimum 720p 4XAA,did sony say all games were going to be 4D 120FPS.? Quote them go ahead..

And i admit they did as simple as that,not don't quote a moron who claim sany say that an actual quote from sony,because i know what the 120FPS was about and sony never claimed all games would run like which MS did.

Lets start by 2005 MS claims of 1 TF hell 1.2 TF is the freaking xbox one,so can you blame sony for saying 2TF for thePS3 when MS started saying 1TF.? You fight fire with fire dude as simple as that,both consoles were not even close to that theoretical power.

In fact the whole PSN fiasco what it hurt you is that nothing happen did any one got the million dollar policy for losing something.? Oh and sony gave people games twice as it will again,did people get something from MS when there accounts were stolen.? Ask Cheleman,an account lockdown for a month,a sorry we can't do anything for you.

ill wait for the quote i am sure you can find it..

Not only you have imply many times how software would close the gap,but you use your own experience with .net as some kind of fact,as if you were a game coder.

You have quite a big love for MS other wise you would not be riding that shit even less DX12,DX it is always say to be the next big thing and to have the next big enhancements but at the end of the day is a late to the party API,and that without actually making you remember how MS use to fu** support for opengl so that developers would chose dx,same shit they did with java..

Oh yeah sure i know is call legacy and i already stated it on another post before this one,and DX12 has less legacy than DX11 but still has legacy the xbox one doesn't neither does the PS4.

@tormentos: Again, are there two of you? You already conceded that the June SDK improved performance for the Xb1. So, how exactly am I wrong again?????

Not even close..lol

Both markets make money and Android is far far bigger,is not 2010 any more dude,now basically every app is done at the same time for both.

Developers use opengl because it is a well know api that run on LINUX kernels idiot,stop making shit up i already kill your argument The nexus 9 uses Opengl 3.1 not DX12..lol

Apple doesn't use DX12 moron,and MS on the phone and tablet market has a niche audience so yeah games will take long to arrive on WINDOWS phones and tablets on android no they will arrive find as Android is the biggest market by far.

Hahahaa............

And i am not even quoting analyst which put Google play over taking apple in revenues by 2016..

Already they have more apps and get more download than ios.

Then you are really really blind if you haven't see it Blackace imply it all the time...hahaha

Which still is blind because there is no parity between 2 consoles with a disparity in hardware,again that imply the xbox one will improve while the PS4 will improve nothing.

O boohoo, If you knew anything you wouldn't be attacking the slight X1 gains DX12 will provide. Longer you keep denying *any* of type of gains Dx12 will provide keeps on making you look like more of an idiot..... lol blaming MS for opengl? no opengl is open source and the team do things on their own time and dime. This is why opengl is behind they dont have the backing of a major company. Developers are not forced to use direct x, its just a fact direct x is easier to use and since 2009 is better the GL overall. No.... DX12's legacy aka DX 11.3 is high level coded API with only a few DX12 features its aimed at independent/small devs that dont have the know how or time/money to code for DX12.

@tormentos: So, what's it like to conveniently forget things to make your point? last year, you touted how "efficient the PS4's APIs were compared to the XB1's". If they are so efficient, how much more can they be improved?

The xbox one will have shit gains,in fact i actually believe that DX11.X on XBO >> DX12 on PC.

Legacy has never ever deliver performance boost all the contrary it takes away from it,and DX12 still has to support a large array of GPU on PC,the xbox one just 1 you can't beat that period no matter what cpu over head will continue to be more efficient on consoles.

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

You are an idiot and you know so little about how MS is always trying to mess the competition is not even funny how about when they started saying that they would drop opengl support for Vista and did drop it?

The problem with OpenGL was that it was never officially supported or evangelized by Microsoft. Of course, Microsoft has always advocated its own Direct3D driver model over OpenGL, but GPU manufacturers have long supported OpenGL in drivers. Many games and productivity applications still use OpenGL even today. With Windows Vista, Microsoft made it clear that OpenGL support would only work as a layer sitting on top of Direct3D. There was going to be translation involved and thus, a performance hit. - See more at:

http://www.dailytech.com/OpenGL+Now+Natively+Supported+in+Windows+Vista/article3760.htm#sthash.L70T4jVN.dpuf

I guess you had your head to far up MS ass to see what they have been doing for years,not only that how they started to buy opengl tech

In January 2002, Microsoft purchased a major chunk of intellectual property from SGI for over US$62 million. A couple months later in March, in a possibly related incident, Microsoft stated to the OpenGL Architectural Review Board (ARB) that it may have claims on the technology used to control 3D lighting effects, or vertex programming. At the most recent ARB meeting in July, Microsoft has now stated that it could have claims on fragment shading, another 3D lighting technology.

http://www.geek.com/apple/microsoft-clarifies-opengl-position-sort-of-549029/

Like when they purchase from SGI and then claim it holded right over the technology to control 3d lighting,MS has screw basically every competitor who does something better than they did,netscape,Java you name it.

Opengl hasn't been an exception.

For me basically you are a MS suck up which can't see the bunch of crap MS has been pulling for years.

By allot because first API are never 100% efficient just because the PS4 one was more efficient doesn't mean it can't improve worse some of the problems of the xbox one are not do to api but how the memory is structure 32MB of fast memory isn't enough in all scenarios and several developers have stated this already,and that will not change.

@tormentos: Still, by your ascertion, there is more room to improve for the XB1's APIs than the PS4s. So, in the end, the difference between improvements for both will be in the XB1's favor. Math 101...

el tormentos...... denial confirmed lol

saying DX11.X is better then DX12 on pc? lol .... DX 11.X does not have multithreading properties as DX12 introduces. All DX 11 versions only uses one primary core in feeding gpu data this limits how well each thread/core can be allocated for different tasks. And this effect is seen with multiple multiplat games.

And then that is one desperate attempt in thinking/proving opengl is actually better today.... that whole article is over 5 years old good going lol.

Fact is that DX is easier to use and DX11 is overall better then what opengl provides today. And with DX12 around the corner providing low level true multithreading support API, Apple dumping opengl, AMD focusing on Mantle. opengl has an uphill battle to get people to use it. Hell John Carmack a opengl only type of developer admitted DX is better then opengl all the way back in 2011.

Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has claimed that the PlayStation 3 will run games at an unprecedented 120 frames per second.

Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has claimed that the PlayStation 3 will be capable of running games at an unprecedented 120 frames per second - and suggested that future television technologies will support these refresh rates.

According to Japanese news service Nikkei BP, Kutaragi's comments were made as part of a speech about the PS3 and the Cell processor delivered at the Tokyo International Digital Conference last week.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/kutaragi-claims-ps3-could-run-at-120-fps

If tormentos, or anyone speaking in absolutes, is wrong about DX12 they should be banned. Not because they're wrong but because they speak in absolutes as if they're a game Dev and have access to DX12. I'm not sure how anyone can speak in absolutes about this stuff. This should include moderators who say the same thing as Tormentos.

They don't contribute anything constructive to the forum. I simply go where the evidence takes me. It would suck if MS made a console that reaps no benefit from DX12 but thats life. I would just say its not likely but it could be the case.

Only person speaking in absolutes is Tomato. Everyone else has been pretty consistent that the Xbox will see overall gains from a shift in API. The problem comes that some only measure gains in FPS and or Resolution. While FPS is a good indicator there are other parts of the main game loop that effect frame rate outside of just the render engine. So while we will see render engine performance increase significantly to those who only measure things in FPS and resolution it will not register on their scale. The change made to D3d almost sounds like a major shift in time complexity, essentially moving from a O(n^2) function to a O(logN). One could only hope the jump is that big.

Slight gains on a weak baseline still results in a weak baseline. A slightly faster snail is still a fuking snail; it just so happens that this particular potentially slighty faster snail is still slower than its slow snail cousin.

Good thing thats just the case in the alternate reality you live in.

@tormentos:

What? Google overtaking Apple in revenues? Doubt it.

OF course there are more Android apps than Apple, but the thing is all apps on the playstore don't work with all android phones. Some android phones don't meet the spec requirements, when new adnroid updates come it may break some apps so instead of devs fixing the app they just make a newer version or rebrand the app, some apps are for rooted phones only, some apps are for specific phones only or for specific builds of android. Plenty of devs on xda who make overclocking apps and apps to add extra fuctionality to their custom versions of android put their work on the playstore to make money. It's not the same with Apple every app on the app store works with every iPhone there are no redundant apps or apps that only work with certain phones.

You say all apps are developed for Android and Apple at the same time, go try and download games like Bioshock and Infinity Blade 3 for your android device tell me how that works out for you.

Google has the numbers when it comes to smartphones but Androids come in so many different sizes and flavors that it can't be helped. When it comes to money spent on Apps Apple is still the king which is why they get games and apps first.

"Android is still the dominant platform across the globe, owning 84.4% of the market according to research firm IDC in the third quarter. But Apple’s iOS is catching up, and fast. It had 11.7% of worldwide market share at the end of the third quarter and that number is expected to rise due to the 74.5 million iPhones shipped in the December quarter."

Now from that same link

"It’s long been known that iOS users are more valuable than Android, as Cook pointed out on the call. “IBM’s digital analytics benchmark service found that iOS devices accounted for more than twice the online traffic and almost four times the e-commerce sales on Android devices during November and December,” the CEO said. Couple that fact with the increase in people around the globe using iPhones versus Android phones, and the Android platform appears to be in trouble."

http://bgr.com/2015/01/28/iphone-vs-android-apple-q1-earnings-analysis/

So Apple only holds about 12 percent of the market compared to Android 84, but that 12 percent spent 4 times the amount on apps than the 84 percent of the market that Android holds, and had twice as much online traffic. No wonder they get everything first.

There are a few others who echo his thoughts... It does seem to be very ambitious. I'm really happy at what I am hearing from Devs who dare to speak out despite the NDA. Wardell seems to be unable to control his excitement. I'm not clear why MS would have NDA's in place so long if it wasn't a big deal...

I believe the push going forward will be more parallel processing. Both Ps4 and Xbox one have dual graphics command processors on board their chip. This can be exploited allowing you to break up render task into multiple phases instead of one single stream of data. Removing the reliance on a single source of data. Microsofts design is banking on that type of design process, however any gains that will be seen still rely on clever solutions to common problems. In the hands of someone like Crytek, or Naughty Dog this type of stuff could lead to many more objects available in scenes. If you get a normal developer though its likely not to effect their game as much. Some developers downplay things they don't fully see a use for or have found an implementation that fits their agenda. DX12 will provide the tools to create some awesome game worlds but i could give my son the best tools in the world and he still wouldn't know how to build anything.

@ttboy: Give themselves space from the competition. Once other people know how it works its not hard to duplicate the process.

Is that so? Then perhaps in your alternate reality demonstrably weaker hardware can somehow transcend beyond its intrinsic limits to surpass demonstrably stronger hardware instead of just keeping pace? If the former is the case rather than the latter it is you indeed that is living elswehere.

Funny, you know why its funny? Because your tying to sound intelligent where you perception of power is based solely on a count of transistors. Your distilling an entire system of parts down to one element of that system and drawing an incomplete conclusion based on flawed logic. Im not hear to debate that with you though I don't have the time nor patience. Just in case you forgot Power = work / time

Translation: you know what is funny thinking stronger hardware is better! you don't have the magic cloud or the magic directx, and obviously, only the xbone will get optimizations, not the ps4! How dare you think better hardware will perform better, just how dare you sir!

Quoted for proof you cannot read.

'In fact the whole PSN fiasco what it hurt you is that nothing happen did any one got the million dollar policy for losing something.? Oh and sony gave people games twice as it will again,did people get something from MS when there accounts were stolen.? Ask Cheleman,an account lockdown for a month,a sorry we can't do anything for you.'

it doesn't hurt me mate, it hurts your fanboy agenda, the truth is that SONY lost Millions of users CC details, whether they where used or not is neither here nor there because this is about SONY's Security.

SONY lost millions of peoples CC details and where dragged in front of the US senate because they clearly did not do enough to stop the intrusion in the first place, they where using out of date servers, out of date security software and they fired half there online security staff DESPITE there being earlier intrusions that should have raised red flags, these are the FACTS tormentos.

Bottom line, The PSN hack has gone down in history as one of the largest Data Breaches in history and nothing you say is going to change that so you can 'Bu-Bu'Bu....' all day long.

'Ask Cheleman'

Relying on anecdotal evidence? wow, you have hit a new low.

'don't quote a moron who claim sany say that an actual quote from sony,because i know what the 120FPS was about and sony never claimed all games would run like which MS did.'

Ken katarugi, the father of playstation is a moron?

'Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has claimed that the PlayStation 3 will run games at an unprecedented 120 frames per second.'

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/kutaragi-claims-ps3-could-run-at-120-fps

Completely agree with this, i have a google nexus 7 2012 and theres a ton of Android games that will not run on it

'You say all apps are developed for Android and Apple at the same time, go try and download games like Bioshock and Infinity Blade 3 for your android device tell me how that works out for you.'

completely agree, tormentos is talking utter bollocks, there are a TON of IOS games that i want that i am still waiting to come to android and a ton of games i want to play that will never see the light of day on android and in my experience the IOS version of games appear weeks sometimes months before the android version, they only just released the android version of lego star wars complete Saga and i cannot play it on my nexus 7 because it's only available for kindle fire which means you need a PowerVR gpu to run the game unless you have a rooted tablet with GL tools.

It's clear to me that when it comes to IOS and android tormentos doesn't have a fucking clue.

Piracy is also rife on android, virtually every paid game can be easily downloaded for free from the internet and side loaded due to the very open nature of Android OS, it is extremely hard to get IOS paid games for free because of apples , quite draconian, DRM policies so it stands to reason and makes logical sense that Apple would make more revenue on IOS games than google makes from Android games sales.

'now basically every app is done at the same time for both.'

Utter bullshit, i know because i am a tablet gamer and i end up waiting weeks even months for games that are on IOS to come to android and a lot of them don't even make it, theres a ton of twin stick shooters i want to play that are only available on IOS.

you did absolutely NO research on the subject clearly because your statement is complete bollocks and anyone who games on either IOS or andoid will tell you that.

They only just released Lego star wars complete Saga on android and you can only play it on Devices with a PowerVR GPU, it was rleased fucking ages ago on IOS.

Stick to what you know tormentos and leave the conversations about IOS and Android to people who actually game on those platforms because you just made yourself look a total tool to anyone like myself who does game on android.

I am actually a huge android fan but i can acknowledge that IOS has more games, better games and makes more revenue on games because Piracy is rife on android i just don't like apple products out of principle, there DRM is draconian and they charge way too much for there hardware.

Round of applause to the lems, they'll still trying at it.

@StormyJoe I thought paridee already existed, StormyJoke?

Why not? It's the best mobile OS.

That stupid fucker said a couple of days ago that Borderlands 3 would be announced at PAX South. Guess what happened?

#almosttime to talk about games that don't exist.

@tormentos: Software HAS closed the gap already! The June SDK update helped move the XB1 from mostly 720p for multiplats to 900p.

As for your second comment. Seriously, stop replying as if you know anything about software development or optimization - it just makes you look stupid.

Not that much difference between 900p and 1080p, Stupid.

But, I'd like to see 1080p just so stupids like you keep your piehole shut.

And, Android is not the best mobile OS. It may be on par with iOS for the home consumer, but it sucks shit compared to iOS in the business world.

560,000 pixels difference, StormyJoke. 1,440,000 vs 2,073,600.

Meanwhile lems insist that a two frame drop for two seconds under load is somehow world-ending.

Nice, got the Crapple drones in here now.

If he stuck to what he actually knows he wouldn't be on these forums :)

I don't give a **** if technical difference is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pixels. No one can really tell the difference when looking at a TV, Stupid.

So far, the best looking next gen game is Ryse - it's 900p. Suck on that for awhile.

Depends on the version and hardware it's running on, theres different versions depending on what device you are running on, Android Os 4.4 thats designed to run well on Nexus 7 would not even run on a samsung tab and vice versa. it also depends on bloatware, my Nexus 7 is a Google tablet so it has a bare bones version of Android 4.4 that runs smooth and seamlessly, on the Tesco's hudl the android is so lagged down with Tesco's intergrated bloatware it really doesn't do the hardware justice.

Android is not one single unified OS, it has to tweeked and tailored to run on each individual phone or tablet, you couldn't take the OS i have running on mine and install it in a samsung Tab because it just would not work.

From a flexibility point of view it's the best on the Market but Stability has to go to IOS because it's a single unified OS across all apple devices.

stupidity at its best, you do know there is like 1/3 more pixels between 900p and 1080p? of course you don't you are ignorant and will keep arguing you can't see them. So yeah, the gap is still there, stupid ignorant lems are still in denial and making bullshit about it.

but nobody gives a fuk what you think clowny, you are just some random ignorant, the gap is there even if you want to deny it all you want and in the the end, remember, you are just the ignorant joke of the forum. Denial of some random moron is not proof of anything.

Would you shut the f**k up, Dummy? I am not interested in your asinine comments, or your man-crush.

@Krelian-co said:

@StormyJoe said:

@GrenadeLauncher said:

@StormyJoe said:

Not that much difference between 900p and 1080p, Stupid.

But, I'd like to see 1080p just so stupids like you keep your piehole shut.

And, Android is not the best mobile OS. It may be on par with iOS for the home consumer, but it sucks shit compared to iOS in the business world.

560,000 pixels difference, StormyJoke. 1,440,000 vs 2,073,600.

Meanwhile lems insist that a two frame drop for two seconds under load is somehow world-ending.

Nice, got the Crapple drones in here now.

I don't give a **** if technical difference is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pixels. No one can really tell the difference when looking at a TV, Stupid.

but nobody gives a fuk what you think clowny, you are just some random ignorant, the gap is there even if you want to deny it all you want and in the the end, remember, you are just the ignorant joke of the forum. Denial of some random moron is not proof of anything.

Really? Then why don't you just... I don't know... stop replying to my threads? I mean

a) I don't care what you think

b) I think you are stupid. Like, literally stupid - as in I think the best you can do in life is work at a car wash.

c) I am not interested in your man-crush.

@StormyJoe said:

@Krelian-co said:

@StormyJoe said:

@GrenadeLauncher said:

@StormyJoe said:

Not that much difference between 900p and 1080p, Stupid.

But, I'd like to see 1080p just so stupids like you keep your piehole shut.

And, Android is not the best mobile OS. It may be on par with iOS for the home consumer, but it sucks shit compared to iOS in the business world.

560,000 pixels difference, StormyJoke. 1,440,000 vs 2,073,600.

Meanwhile lems insist that a two frame drop for two seconds under load is somehow world-ending.

Nice, got the Crapple drones in here now.

I don't give a **** if technical difference is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pixels. No one can really tell the difference when looking at a TV, Stupid.

but nobody gives a fuk what you think clowny, you are just some random ignorant, the gap is there even if you want to deny it all you want and in the the end, remember, you are just the ignorant joke of the forum. Denial of some random moron is not proof of anything.

Really? Then why don't you just... I don't know... stop replying to my threads? I mean

a) I don't care what you think

b) I think you are stupid. Like, literally stupid - as in I think the best you can do in life is work at a car wash.

c) I am not interested in your man-crush.

a. you are the only one being proven ignorant and wrong all the time.

b. nah its always fun to make fun of the local moron, it is even funnier when that person thinks he's not.

c. you hurt my feelings, i do care what you say, your ignorant posts make me laugh, you are like some glue eating kid calling everyone stupid when they make fun of you xD

@Krelian-co: HA HA HA HA!!!!

OK, after this, back to ignoring your dumbass.

First off, you can't prove me wrong. Hell, I argue with Tormentos all the time, and he is still clinging to the last time I was wrong - almost a year ago. Second, it's is truly funny to me that someone as stupid as you tries to call someone like me the "local moron". I could have a lobotomy and still be smarter than you.

So long, Dummy.

there is no need to prve wrong something stupid, 1080p vs 900p has 500k more pixels, like 1/3 more than 900p, that is more proof than some dumb ignorant such as yourself saying the gap is closed because he is in denial. Tormentos has destroyed you, basically anyone who has any knowledge about anything can win an argument against your ignorance, all you do is "aha i can't see the difference, check mate!" but of course we are used to your ignorant comments.

It's also very ignorant to just think that just because in one instance a game is 1080p vs 900p, when last months this wasn't the case at all, that one is much stronger. Has more to do with the developer and choosing how much resources they put into each console. Probably more into PS4, because they have a bigger userbase.

Slight improvements will be made on the consoles we have now. Pretty standard stuff.

Not according to el tormentos

While there are runtime improvements,

1600x900 is 69.4 percent of 1920x1080. The resolution difference is more apparent when 30 fps is the target.

If floating 60 fps x 1920x1080 is the target, Xbox One approximately has 42 fps and PS4 has 60 fps i.e. there's no resolution difference with this setup. The next Xbox One refresh should have FreeSync + DisplayPort 1.2a so non-30 or non-60 fps gaming would be tear free.

1.31 TFLOPS is 71.9 percent of 1.84 TFLOPS. 1600x900 is the closest 16:9 resolution for Xbox One's 71.9 percent of PS4.

For 1600x900 vs 1920x1080, 127.696 TFLOPS is 69.4 percent from 1.84 TFLOPS.

This is programmable shader based limits influencing resolution outcomes. DirectX 12 wouldn't solve this issue.

Alternative resolution with close to 71.9 percent from PS4's shader budget

1440x1080 i.e. 72.9 percent from 1920x1080.

1400x1050 i.e. 70.89 percent from 1920x1080.

Using these resolutions on 16.9 display would need scaling and aspect correction.

At this time, DirectX 12 publically known to improve textures/material handling for Xbox One,

PS4 has a weakness i.e. the more the CPU is used, it would result in disproportionately less bandwidth for the GPU. On Xbox One, ESRAM frame buffer bandwidth remains the same. Xbox One's ESRAM's effective bandwidth is already exceeding PS4's effective GDDR5 bandwidth, but using that advantage has it's own issues.

PC's 256bit GDDR5 2GB and 128bit DDR3 8GB model still beats PS4's gaming results i.e. it's between X1 and PS4 extremes. With X1's silicon budget, the alternative game console would have 7870 XT/7950 class GPU. HBM upgrade will make this setup cheaper i.e. move motherboard GDDR5 on to the GPU chip package. 7870 XT/7950 class GPU translates to R9-285 with improved frame buffer compression when using updated GCN.

There's a chance for Nintendo to deliver the PC like gaming if they configure their next console correctly.