Which Japanese property should have Western development?

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The_RedLion

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#351 The_RedLion
Member since 2009 • 1942 Posts
there is a difference between a studied historian and a political blowhard.texasgoldrush
Yeah, the studied historian admitted he didn't have any evidence, while politicians don't.
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NeonNinja

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#352 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

You have my sincerest gratitude.

hakanakumono

You're welcome. :oops:

Oh man, I didn't think it would be so easy to find a picture of a donkey that looked exactly like him. :P

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texasgoldrush

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#353 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15251 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]There is no proof that proves that he was a figurehead that had no role in the war...The_RedLion

Besides common knowledge of Japane history, every history book in the face of the earth (besides those baseless books you listed) and what has been accepted for decades. Y

eah, no proof at all :roll:

Youare the one defying common knowlegde. You are the one that need to provide proof. You haven't. That's it.

First of all, what it accepted as "common knowledge" can be proven wrong...like the sun revolves around the earth. Second, the US did not make an effort to prosecute the Imperial family due to the worries that would have led to instability. Some members should have been prosecuted like Prince Takeda who headed Unit 731. The fact Hirohito was still alive until the 80's stifled debate even more. And there is plenty of evidence that he signed off on orders for military action, and there is clear evidence he met with leaders of the military and influenced their plans.

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texasgoldrush

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#354 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15251 Posts
[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="Luxen90"][QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

Oh. Sucks to be you. :PHe stopped responding to me, but I don't blame him.

Like I said, he and I were talking about games though, not history. It just kind of blended in and carried over to where those two are currently having a field day with him. :P

It's amazing how this conversation started from Resident Evil 4 being influenced by western games or whatever.

Oh man, this conversation has had a pretty crazy history. It first started with someone saying BioWare should take over Square-Enix. I disagreed, golden boy showed up, something special sparked from there. Meanwhile he got carried off in a Japanese history showdown while I agreed with some users that RE4 in fact influenced many Western shooters. Three conversations happened all at the same time and then everyone won their respective argument except for him.... and this is where we stand..... the third and final attempt. :P

I don't know Japanese history so the conversation holds little weight to me. But I heard mention of Atlantis and Kennedysomewhere in there. :P

and how did I lose my argument, I still have not been proven wrong.
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ronvalencia

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#355 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

Final Fantasy (non-MMO) with CryEngine 2 or 3 on the PC. For example, CryEngine 2 with FF mod "Eorzea" map http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVs4po_kISU&feature=related

Crysis Nature Flythrough http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbKbPuKp5Ts&feature=related

Crysis Custom European Vegetation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msH2VdcXwMY&feature=related

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The_RedLion

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#356 The_RedLion
Member since 2009 • 1942 Posts

First of all, what it accepted as "common knowledge" can be proven wrong...like the sun revolves around the earth. Second, the US did not make an effort to prosecute the Imperial family due to the worries that would have led to instability. Some members should have been prosecuted like Prince Takeda who headed Unit 731. The fact Hirohito was still alive until the 80's stifled debate even more. And there is plenty of evidence that he signed off on orders for military action.texasgoldrush

Yeah, we all saw what kind of evidence you're talking about.

Books whose own autors admit lack evidence:lol:

Let's stop this conversation here please, we have been offtopic for far too long, and if statements like "there's plenty of evidence" and "I haven't been proven wrong"is all what we have now to talk about, I can't see any reason to continue.

There are two ways of making a point: making a reasoning solid enough that people agree with you, or providing an undeniable proof. You haven't done either.

Every single point you've made in this thread has been met with criticism, disagreement or proven wrong.

I don't think we have anything left to talk about.

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NeonNinja

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#357 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

[QUOTE="Luxen90"] It's amazing how this conversation started from Resident Evil 4 being influenced by western games or whatever. texasgoldrush

Oh man, this conversation has had a pretty crazy history. It first started with someone saying BioWare should take over Square-Enix. I disagreed, golden boy showed up, something special sparked from there. Meanwhile he got carried off in a Japanese history showdown while I agreed with some users that RE4 in fact influenced many Western shooters. Three conversations happened all at the same time and then everyone won their respective argument except for him.... and this is where we stand..... the third and final attempt. :P

I don't know Japanese history so the conversation holds little weight to me. But I heard mention of Atlantis and Kennedysomewhere in there. :P

and how did I lose my argument, I still have not been proven wrong.

Don't try and involve me. I've become a sideline spectator at this point bro. You've got your hands full as it is. :P

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hakanakumono

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#358 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

Nothing more needs to be said.

This will forever be known as the thread where Texasgoldrush was proven, absolutely and without any doubt, incorrect.

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NeonNinja

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#359 NeonNinja
Member since 2005 • 17318 Posts

Nothing more needs to be said.

This will forever be known as the thread where Texasgoldrush was proven, absolutely and without any doubt, incorrect.

hakanakumono

Three times at least, if not more. :P

I'm not letting the history buffs take all the credit for this. It was kind of a beautiful thing when everything was taken together as a whole and culminated in this.

*sniff* I miss this thread already. :cry:

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sonicmj1

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#360 sonicmj1
Member since 2003 • 9130 Posts

[QUOTE="The_RedLion"]

Youare the one defying common knowlegde. You are the one that need to provide proof. You haven't. That's it.

texasgoldrush

First of all, what it accepted as "common knowledge" can be proven wrong...like the sun revolves around the earth.

Yes. It can be proven wrong. With proof.

You haven't supplied proof. You have supplied theories that are barely supported by evidence. That is speculation, not proof.

I would not trust someone who characterizes the Meiji Restoration as, "The Emperor overthrowing the Shogun," (ignoring that the Emperor had no real power to affect any kind of change prior to being put in charge by the Satsuma and Choshu samurai) to prove me wrong about Japanese history, any more than I'd trust someone who thinks that Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is better than Bayonetta to tell me anything about what makes a quality action game.

Japanese developers are still fantastic. They've made some of the best games this generation. Western outsourcing has only succeeded with careful oversight from Japanese producers, and developers that truly understand the existing formulas at work in the games they inherited. Transforming existing popular Japanese franchises into generic-brand Western versions is the surest path to the complete marginalization of the Japanese gaming industry.

I'm going to bed.

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hakanakumono

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#362 hakanakumono
Member since 2008 • 27455 Posts

DUDE. I know what Hirohito's secret was! Obviously, it's THE LAST BATTALION. Folks, be sure to remember this thread when Persona 2 is released in the west!

Other pending titles:

The Demerits of Wikipedia

Choosing Your Sources Wisely: Do They Prove You Wrong?

Secrets of Atlantis: Revealed

Hitler's Last Battalion: Still Hiding in Japan?

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The_RedLion

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#363 The_RedLion
Member since 2009 • 1942 Posts

Now that's what I'm talking about.

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texasgoldrush

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#364 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15251 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

[QUOTE="The_RedLion"]

Youare the one defying common knowlegde. You are the one that need to provide proof. You haven't. That's it.

sonicmj1

First of all, what it accepted as "common knowledge" can be proven wrong...like the sun revolves around the earth.

Yes. It can be proven wrong. With proof.

You haven't supplied proof. You have supplied theories that are barely supported by evidence. That is speculation, not proof.

I would not trust someone who characterizes the Meiji Restoration as, "The Emperor overthrowing the Shogun," (ignoring that the Emperor had no real power to affect any kind of change prior to being put in charge by the Satsuma and Choshu samurai) to prove me wrong about Japanese history, any more than I'd trust someone who thinks that Castlevania: Lords of Shadow is better than Bayonetta to tell me anything about what makes a quality action game.

Japanese developers are still fantastic. They've made some of the best games this generation. Western outsourcing has only succeeded with careful oversight from Japanese producers, and developers that truly understand the existing formulas at work in the games they inherited. Transforming existing popular Japanese franchises into generic-brand Western versions is the surest path to the complete marginalization of the Japanese gaming industry.

I'm going to bed.

1. The Emperor played a huge role, as did the Satsuma and Choshu clans (who were at odds with eacthother as well). He wasn't irrelevant. He was certainly more powerful than the British monarch. As I keep saying however, The postwar reforms were just as monumental to Japan (if not more) as the Meiji Restoration.

2. Never said LoS was better than Bayonetta and I have said in the past that Bayonetta has better combat

3. Metroid Prime was far from generic, neither was Castlevania LoS (which had a unique Western art****. In fact, they have gotten generic and rehash heavy under Japanese devs, and a Western title in the series would change the pace.

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Thessassin

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#365 Thessassin
Member since 2007 • 1819 Posts

Page 1 started off good... fast forward to page whatever im on, some weeaboos going off about some dude. Really guys? back on track, i think most JRPG's need to hand over the reigns, most of japanese game development has gone stale, Japan is just scared of change.

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nintendo-4life

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#366 nintendo-4life
Member since 2004 • 18281 Posts
All of them are interesting choices.. Except Zelda, please god if I read the word "warlord" in a Zelda game I will personally hunt down Miyamoto and make him sorry he ever lived.
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rcignoni

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#367 rcignoni
Member since 2004 • 8863 Posts
Resident Evil, it's going downhill.
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nintendo-4life

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#368 nintendo-4life
Member since 2004 • 18281 Posts
[QUOTE="soulitane"]You want FF to become a WRPG, nah I can't agree with that/texasgoldrush
At least Avellone won't have a "I am the bad guy and I want to destroy the world" plotline.

FFXIII didn't have this plotline. And the reason why the company is failing is because it's trying to abandon it's roots to appeal to more western people (same with capcom).
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caseypayne69

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#369 caseypayne69
Member since 2002 • 5396 Posts
Zelda to be made by Rockstar. Final Fantasy by Bio Ware.
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Jag85

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#370 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 20659 Posts

Some games before it have used it as well, its one of the views on Shadow of the Empire for the N64..true RE4 popularized it, but it wasn't the first to use it.texasgoldrush

Shadow of the Empire had an over-the-head view like every other third-person shooter at the time. The now common over-the-shoulder view, where the camera zooms in over the character's shoulder from where the player can aim, was indeed first introduced by Resident Evil 4.

Yes, some games in Japan used that perspective, however, it is a Western innovation dating back to the 70's. And the modern first person shooter is definitely western, which came with Wolfenstien 3d.texasgoldrush

Not true. Sega was producing first-person electronic shooting games since the 1960s (such as Periscope in 1966 and Missile in 1969), which evolved into first-person lightgun shooter arcade games in the early 1970s (such as Sega's Killer Shark and Sea Devil in 1972, and Nintendo's Wild Gunman in 1974). As for the third-person perspective, the first game to use that was Sega's racing game Moto-Cross (also known as Fonz) in 1976, and the earliest shooter to use that perspective was Shigeru Miyamoto's debut game Radar Scope, a 1979 Space Invaders clone with a third-person view.

As for the modern first-person shooter sty1e popularized by Wolfenstein 3D, the 1988 Japanese FPS game Star Cruiser by Arsys Software not only had a similar sty1e but also used fully 3D polygonal graphics nearly a decade before Quake. The same year Wolfenstein 3D released, 1992, there was another FPS game by Taito, Gun Buster, that featured co-operative and team deathmatch modes (two years before Doom) while allowing the players to aim with a lightgun and move the character with a joystick (similar to the keyboard-mouse setup of Quake).

As for 3D third-person shooters, WiBArm by Arsys Software was a 1986 shooter that that used 3D polygonal graphics for third-person exploration, though the boss battles were in 2D. The earliest fully 3D third-person shooter was Namco's Cyber Sled in 1993. Much of the TPS genre in general since then was mostly shaped by Japanese shooters, as the TPS genre was like an alternative to the FPS games that Japanese audiences still dislike. It is only in recent years that TPS games have become more popular in the West, due to RE4's new over-the-shoulder perspective as well as the cover system (which originated from Japanese shooters like Rolling Thunder, Devastators, Bonanza Bros, Time Crisis, MGS, WinBack, MGS2, and Kill Switch) that was popularized by Gears of War, Rainbow Six Vegas and Uncharted.


It is.....Japan's current constitution was written mostly by the US as well.

The Meiji era transfered power from the Shogun to the Emporer (who during tha Meiji period was far from a figurehead) with a very limited democracy, post war reforms turned a militaristic authoritarian (and outright barbaric) regime into a pacifist liberal democracy...and power was transfered from the elites to the common people. The fact that women could now vote is a huge cultural change for Japan, in which, women lacked any sort of power before.texasgoldrush

You're forgetting that most Western nations at the time were hardly the "pacifist liberal democracy" loving nations you think they were. Western nations at the time had many issues of their own, including imperialism, colonialism, racism, sexism, poverty, human rights abuses, war crimes, etc. They obviously weren't quite as barbaric as Germany or Japan during WWII, but that only made them the lesser of two evils, if anything. It was with the rise of various anti-colonialist movements (like Gandhi) and civil rights movements (like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X) after World War II that Western nations as well as Japan became the modern liberal democracies that we now recognize. These "cultural changes" were pretty much occuring all over the world during the post-WWII era.

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jasonharris48

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#371 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

Wow Texas, this is a new low for you lol

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jasonharris48

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#372 jasonharris48
Member since 2006 • 21441 Posts

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="soulitane"]You want FF to become a WRPG, nah I can't agree with that/nintendo-4life
At least Avellone won't have a "I am the bad guy and I want to destroy the world" plotline.

FFXIII didn't have this plotline. And the reason why the company is failing is because it's trying to abandon it's roots to appeal to more western people (same with capcom).

If Square was trying to appeal to the West with FFXIII they did a very awful job.

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jg4xchamp

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#373 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64054 Posts

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

You're right. It's better. A lot better.

DarkLink77

If you want to enjoy Star Wars the douchebag edition of that universe.

Oh, yes, because Star Wars should always be black and white, right, champ? :roll:

The whole point of the ****ing series revolves around its black and white nature. Forgive me for not loving every sack of **** made by Obsidian :|
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texasgoldrush

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#374 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15251 Posts

First off all, Maze Wars and Spasm were the first FPS's...Maze War being important as it influenced RPGs as well. However, it is Wolfenstein that is credited for starting the genre we see today and the industry has recognized this.

"You're forgetting that most Western nations at the time were hardly the "pacifist liberal democracy" loving nations you think they were. Western nations at the time had many issues of their own, including imperialism, colonialism, racism, sexism, poverty, human rights abuses, war crimes, etc. They obviously weren't quite as barbaric as Germany or Japan during WWII, but that only made them the lesser of two evils, if anything. It was with the rise of various anti-colonialist movements (like Gandhi) and civil rights movements (like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X) after World War II that Western nations as well as Japan became the modern liberal democracies that we now recognize. These "cultural changes" were pretty much occuring all over the world during the post-WWII era."

Never said that the liberal democracies at the time were pacifist, and in fact Japan is a special case were they are constitutionally prevented from significant army buildup. While we forced them to demilitarize, the Japanese population accepts this fact and even favors their pacifist role (even today, as politicans would be unsuccessful amending that article in the constitution). Thats what two nukes along with Operation Meetinghouse can do to a nation, significant cultural change in that regard. Yes, anti-colonalist movements changed things in liberal democracies pose WWII, but the destruction of the authoritarian regime and the new constitution allowed Japan to be affected by these changes as well. Really, Japan (as well as South Korea and Hong Kong) has Western culture (excpet religious) with Eastern twists on aspects of life.

There are more similitaries than differences between modern Japanese and American culture. Japanese game companies have a tendency to emphasize the differences rather than their similirities and that has really hurt their industry.

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texasgoldrush

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#375 texasgoldrush
Member since 2003 • 15251 Posts

[QUOTE="nintendo-4life"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] At least Avellone won't have a "I am the bad guy and I want to destroy the world" plotline.jasonharris48

FFXIII didn't have this plotline. And the reason why the company is failing is because it's trying to abandon it's roots to appeal to more western people (same with capcom).

If Square was trying to appeal to the West with FFXIII they did a very awful job.

and their problem is that they think the West wants something, but they actually don't. Some parts ineptitude, other parts inexperience.
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Teuf_

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#376 Teuf_
Member since 2004 • 30805 Posts

Okay I think this thread is about as off-topic as it can possibly get.