Which Japanese property should have Western development?

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

FYI System Wars, if you've played the original Parasite Eve ... you might be interested in knowing that it's development was a fusion between east and west.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] or the fact that Nintendo, SquareEnix, Capcom, NamcoBandai, and Konami have relied more an dmore on Western ideas and Western developers. Facts are facts....and the West revived Donkey Kong and Metroid.texasgoldrush

My experience with the metroid series is limited, but I prefer Fusion and Zero Mission to Prime.

Western studies have also effectively failed at capturing Silent Hill.

To be sure, there could be some interesting IPs in the hands of western developers. But as far as handing IPs over to the west, no I can't agree with that. Any discussion of this, however, would be wasted on someone who uses "Japanese" as a synonym for "bad" and would like nothing more to see the Japanese industry lose it's identity.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

My experience with the metroid series is limited, but I prefer Fusion and Zero Mission to Prime.

Western studies have also effectively failed at capturing Silent Hill.

To be sure, there could be some interesting IPs in the hands of western developers. But as far as handing IPs over to the west, no I can't agree with that. Any discussion of this, however, would be wasted on someone who uses "Japanese" as a synonym for "bad" and would like nothing more to see the Japanese industry lose it's identity.

None, let every dev do what he does.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

Metroid Fusion was also a factor on the resurrection of the Metroid franchise. And why is critical reception imporant now, and not when comparing Lords of Shadows to GoWIII? ;)

Japanese game companies rehash their products far more often than Western developers do (in which in the West, the only rehashes we have are sports games and competitive shooters). Look at Castlevania.....they rehashed Symphony of the Night six more times...and it feels tired after awhile. They got the message before they got the message and gave MercurySteam a Castlevania game which is not "Metroidvania".texasgoldrush

If that's your definition of rehash, then West is as guilty of it as the East. GoW, GeoW, CoD, Halo, Assassin's Creed, etc etc, the vast majority of sequels are rehashes. And they are released faster than the Castlevania games you listed. Lords of Shadow itself is a (bad) GoW rehash.

Games like Okami and Shadow of the Colossus are become more and more rare in the japanese game industry ( I consider those tow games the best games of the PS2).. Their innovative titles are becoming less and less mainstream as well. Over here, we had Assassin's Creed, a very original game, sell millions of copies, shockingly so as the first game got mixed reviews.texasgoldrush

There was nothing particularly innovative on AC, and if we judge innovation that lightly, games like Demon's Souls are way more innovative.

And there again, it remains the point of how useless is to draw a line between the East and West. Pointless.

Metroid Fusion was a great game and very much well recieved, but Prime IS the ressurection of the franchise. Prime took the series into the future....Fusion was Super Metroid 2. There would only be one more 2d game afterward. Its more than critics, its the game's impact has on the industry..texasgoldrush

We weren't talking about which influenced the most, but which resurrected the franchise. And Fusion was part of it, that's a fact.

And once again, their is a hype gap between GOW III and LoS...one game was hyped to hell and the other had a stigma (anti-hype, for being a 3d Castlevania) Hype affects critics. Hype is why critics overrate Halo, CoD, and Gears of War as well and lead critics to criticize less hyped games more harshly. And more like GOW is a rehash of Castlevania.Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness had a very similiar combat system before the first GOW did (complete with damage and healing numbers).In fact Kratos's whip is inspired by Super Castlevania IV.texasgoldrush

We either considerreviews credible or not. There's no middle ground. Using reviews when it suits an argument but discard them when they don't under the excuse of "hype" simply doesn't make sense.

And LoI and CoD are closer to DMC than GoW. LoS is a GoW rehash, plain and simple.

Irrelevant, even if it were true (which is not, any 2D with a long-range melee weapon can be considered an "inspiration"), doesn't change that LoS is a GoW rehash.

The only rehash in the AC franchise is Brotherhood, which was basically the second half of Assassins Creed II. But then their is an unique multiplayer feature. And I did mention that in the West, major sports titles and competive shooters are the most guilty of rehashing. I never said the West doesn't rehash. Demon's Souls is far from innovative, especially those who have played hack and slash and dungeon crawlers. The only innovation is how they handle death.texasgoldrush

Assassin's Creed rehashed a lot of mechanics of existing games. Just like Demon's Souls.

Everything that's Japanese should become Western.

Everything that's Japanese should become Western.

DeckardLee2010

Joke, right?

How did it look generic?

I have never seen a Castle like that before, with snow and ice all over. Or the phenominal setting of Chapter 4.

In fact, Lords of Shadow broke from the generic settings in the series. Before that, it was in the same castle and the same woods. Rehash, outside of Portrait of Ruin.

Actually I want a grown up Link or Zelda as the protagonist.texasgoldrush

I agree Lords of Shadow looks impressive and atmospheric, but I've seen many Castlevania fans referring to its art sty1e as a "generic" sty1e that has become far too common in Western games these days. Much of the Castlevania fanbase prefers the art sty1e of Ayami Kojima (Japanese female artist for most of the previous Castlevania games) rather than Jose Luis Vaello (Spanish male artist for LOS), due to Ayami Kojima's fairly unique feminine/baroque/anime sty1e that gave the Castlevania series its own distinct look that made it stand out from other anime-sty1e games.

A grown-up Link is already the protagonist in Twilight Princess and the upcoming Skyward Sword. It's not necessary to change the anime art sty1e to a realistic one just to make him look grown-up. Despite the general Japanophobic trend these days, Link still remains one of the most popular game characters of all time, so there's no reason to change his look. Besides, it would just look wierd if Link were to look something like Gabriel or Kratos. There's just no way the Zelda fanbase will ever accept such a 'bastardization' of the character. Considering the outrage over DmC's new Dante look (which isn't even all that bad), the outrage over a new Western-looking Link would be much worse.

And once again, their is a hype gap between GOW III and LoS...one game was hyped to hell and the other had a stigma (anti-hype, for being a 3d Castlevania) Hype affects critics. Hype is why critics overrate Halo, CoD, and Gears of War as well and lead critics to criticize less hyped games more harshly.

And more like GOW is a rehash of Castlevania. Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness had a very similiar combat system before the first GOW did (complete with damage and healing numbers). In fact Kratos's whip is inspired by Super Castlevania IV.

The only rehash in the AC franchise is Brotherhood, which was basically the second half of Assassins Creed II. But then their is an unique multiplayer feature.

And I did mention that in the West, major sports titles and competive shooters are the most guilty of rehashing. I never said the West doesn't rehash. Demon's Souls is far from innovative, especially those who have played hack and slash and dungeon crawlers. The only innovation is how they handle death.texasgoldrush

I agree about GOW III and LOS. I thought GOW III was overrated and LOS underrated, for the wrong reasons like the constant GOW rip-off accusations which are completely untrue. I often find myself having to defend LOS from these accusations, pointing out how the gameplay of Lords of Shadow has far more in common with its predecessors Lament of Innocence and Curse of Shadow than it does with God of War, but I've realized that the reason why many gamers continue to call it a GOW rip-off is not necessarily the gameplay, but because it has similar Western aesthetics. Many gamers judge the game for what they see on the surface, the apparently "generic" Western art sty1e and aesthetics, rather than looking at the actual gameplay mechanics.

As for Demon's Souls, that was not its only innovation. What made it even more innovative was its unique take on online gameplay.

Everything that's Japanese should become Western.

DeckardLee2010

Considering almost everything western is on a path to become more like CoD I can't say I agree with that.:P

The whole antagonism between East and West is ridiculous. Both have contributed immensely to make gaming what is now, in different ways and in different times.

And even if they hadn't, that's a very pointless discussion, since it changes nothing and serves no purpose.

IronBass

To be fair, everything we argue on here is ultimately pointless. But I see what you are saying considering every argument involving east vs west usually involves Japan vs the rest of the world, and thats not entirely fair.

[QUOTE="IronBass"]

The whole antagonism between East and West is ridiculous. Both have contributed immensely to make gaming what is now, in different ways and in different times.

And even if they hadn't, that's a very pointless discussion, since it changes nothing and serves no purpose.

alfredooo

To be fair, everything we argue on here is ultimately pointless. But I see what you are saying considering every argument involving east vs west usually involves Japan vs the rest of the world, and thats not entirely fair.

The fact that the rest of the world's gaming industries need to combine together just to take down a little island speaks volumes about Japan's success in the gaming world. They should take that as a compliment, if anything.

It's like World War II all over again... except Germany and Italy are no longer on Japan's side. After decades of those evil Japanese dominating the gaming world, there was bound to be a backlash sooner or later.

Contra has already had Western development . . .

Zelda (specifically Majora's Mask please)GunSmith1_basic

The art design Castlevania: Lords of Shadow was really inspired by Guillermo Del Toro, who directed the masterpiece that was Pan's Labyrinth. In fact, some areas, like Pan's Grove in Chapter 1, are outright homages to that movie. Its far from generic...it is a unique artstyle that is quite a bit different from the LOTR's style fantasy settings. The problem with the Castlevania games before it is that they rehashed the same art style over and over, as well as the same setting. LOS takes the series into brand new places and gives Translyvania a look that the series hasn't shown before...it being snowed over.

And LOS is no rehash of GOW, you actually have to strategize during battle instead of just mashing buttons to win. Hence, no combo counter, like gOW or Dante's inferno.

[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] One review is subjective....critical consensus and fan reception consensus is not. When multiple reviewers mention the same strengths and weaknesses,a critical consensus can be formed, which is then objective. Thats what Rotten Tomatoes uses, in every movie on their site, they sum up all the reviews, find the common praises and criticisms, and write a crticial consensus. The critical consensus for Enslaved is that the story and characters, as well as the environment were excellent, but the gameplay is mediocre and tedious.

Yes game journalism is a joke...the biggest reason why is because of hype leads to reviewers overscoring games (which then turn out to be divisive) and overlooking others. Unlike movie critics, who are hype immune basically, game critics are strongly affected by the hype.

However, for Enslaved, which is below the radar, hype doesn't come into play here.

texasgoldrush

Video games can't be judged the same to movies or books. Its okay to have lower standards in regards to storytelling because games also have to be judged by the way they play. Really, games will never be a literatures level and it is simply unfair to judge them in that level. If you compare Enslaved to the work its inspired by, Enslaved loses badly, but as a game, its storytelling is excellent.

A consensus of fans opinions is important...it is a way of how game makers improve their games. For example, the fan consensus of ME2's planet scanning is highly negative....would it make sense for Bioware to repeat that feature in ME3? No. Fan consensus is extremely important in th egame industry. The trouble with the FF series is that SE completely ignores it.

[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Oh look, another crusade against Japan.

texasgoldrush

Ehh??? Are you serious?

zelda devloped by an western developer? No thank you, took me 7 months to forget darksiders

i wouldnt want link to look like an American wrestler with hobo clothes

A linear story is a linear story. It is not with or without merit based on what medium it is on. Linear stories as a whole are perfectly legitimate.

zelda devloped by an western developer? No thank you, took me 7 months to forget darksiders

i wouldnt want link to look like an American wrestler with hobo clothes

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]

Oh look, another crusade against Japan.

Ehh??? Are you serious?

I still have no clue how you said the likes of nintendo and capcom were relying on developers from the west. Almost all of capcom's lowest scoring/selling games came from western devs, while their best and highest came from japanese devs (them included)

From bionic commando to moto GP to Dark void, western devs have failed capcom.

On to nintendo, most of their games (including the highest scoring 3) are done by the japanese devs and all of these have been their most successful games. Retro did prime and DK, I don't know of anything else.

I still have no clue how you said the likes of nintendo and capcom were relying on developers from the west. Almost all of capcom's lowest scoring/selling games came from western devs, while their best and highest came from japanese devs (them included)

From bionic commando to moto GP to Dark void, western devs have failed capcom.

On to nintendo, most of their games (including the highest scoring 3) are done by the japanese devs and all of these have been their most successful games. Retro did prime and DK, I don't know of anything else.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

I still have no clue how you said the likes of nintendo and capcom were relying on developers from the west. Almost all of capcom's lowest scoring/selling games came from western devs, while their best and highest came from japanese devs (them included)

From bionic commando to moto GP to Dark void, western devs have failed capcom.

On to nintendo, most of their games (including the highest scoring 3) are done by the japanese devs and all of these have been their most successful games. Retro did prime and DK, I don't know of anything else.

texasgoldrush

You can't build an argument off of speculation. Could haves, and simple comments like "saved their ass" aren't cutting it man. Bring hard evidence or please don't bother. As for Capcom, they pretty much haven't adopted excessive western development in most of their actual successful titles. Want to provide examples please?

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] or the fact that Nintendo, SquareEnix, Capcom, NamcoBandai, and Konami have relied more an dmore on Western ideas and Western developers. Facts are facts....and the West revived Donkey Kong and Metroid.texasgoldrush

Ehh??? Are you serious?

Wow are you serious? Namco/Bandai's dependancy was on Enslaved and witcher rather than their mecha games and tekken??....

Nintendo with retro? When Galaxy, Wii sports, Wii music, Wii fit, Mario Kart wii and SSBB all outsold retro's games?

Capcom? Those games you listed were all done by their japanese devs.. I don't understand why you listed them... Shinji Mikami of platinum games developed RE4 while in capcom.... Inafune also did lost planet and DR.. how does he count as western??

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

I still have no clue how you said the likes of nintendo and capcom were relying on developers from the west. Almost all of capcom's lowest scoring/selling games came from western devs, while their best and highest came from japanese devs (them included)

From bionic commando to moto GP to Dark void, western devs have failed capcom.

On to nintendo, most of their games (including the highest scoring 3) are done by the japanese devs and all of these have been their most successful games. Retro did prime and DK, I don't know of anything else.

You can't build an argument off of speculation. Could haves, and simple comments like "saved their ass" aren't cutting it man. Bring hard evidence or please don't bother. As for Capcom, they pretty much haven't adopted excessive western development in most of their actual successful titles. Want to provide examples please?

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Ehh??? Are you serious?

Wow are you serious? Namco/Bandai's dependancy was on Enslaved and witcher rather than their mecha games and tekken??....

Nintendo with retro? When Galaxy, Wii sports, Wii music, Wii fit, Mario Kart wii and SSBB all outsold retro's games?

Capcom? Those games you listed were all done by their japanese devs.. I don't understand why you listed them... Shinji Mikami of platinum games developed RE4 while in capcom.... Inafune also did lost planet and DR.. how does he count as western??

Yes, those Capcom games were done by Japanese developers, but with the West in mind. Both Inafune and Mikami had the West in mind and had western ideas when making their games. Namco/Bandai has just started using Western developers and publishing Western games, Enslaved was one of the first.texasgoldrush

Where I fail to see the dependancy part here..... not only that but what western ideas did Shinji have with RE4? Dead rising I could see... can't even see lost planet in there.. it's like monster hunt in a sense...

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]

Yes, those Capcom games were done by Japanese developers, but with the West in mind. Both Inafune and Mikami had the West in mind and had western ideas when making their games. Namco/Bandai has just started using Western developers and publishing Western games, Enslaved was one of the first.

Where I fail to see the dependancy part here..... not only that but what western ideas did Shinji have with RE4? Dead rising I could see... can't even see lost planet in there.. it's like monster hunt in a sense...

more emphasis on shooting and combat, sniper rifle scope, before they were cut, dialogue choice in common with WRPGs and adventure games.texasgoldrush

"More emphasis on shooting and combat" means absolute nothing. Plenty of Japanese games have lots of emphasis on shooting and combat.

Sniper rifle scope? Seriously? That's way too forced to have any value as an argument.

And about the "before they were cut", well, they were cut. So it's not really valid.

DKC - the biggest selling SNES game ever (thats not packed in)....before DKC's release, the Genesis was neck and neck with the SNES, that game turned the tide and SNES decisively won. Incorrect. Super Mario All Stars is the best-selling not bundled Snes game. And DKC is practically tied with SuperMario Kart. And prooffor the rest?

Goldeneye 007 - the second biggest seller after Mario 64 and helped popularize the shooter. Clearly Rare had a large part in Nintendo's success, especially in the 90's. Incorrect. The second biggest seller was Mario Kart 64.

Capcom's Resident Evil series took a western, more action heavy direction, and RE4 became one of its greatest hits (in fact, it was going to have dialogue choices, but it was removed). Being "action-heavy" is not a Western-specific quality. Not even close.texasgoldrush

Corrections in blue.

Resident Evil 4 was a great game. Unfortunately, it has left Resident Evil in a position where it is no longer anything remarkable or special. And the more "Japanese" game that was left behind? It's place still hasn't been refilled.

If you want more stagnation in the industry, a lack of diversity, and the input from people of different cultural persuasions, then by all means, advocate the collapse of the Japanese industry in favor of the west using their IPs.

Because, after all, nothing indicates confidence in the western gaming industrymore than suggesting that they build off of Japanese intellectual properties.

[QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Rare saved Nintendo's ass, plain and simple. They turned the 16 bit console wars in Nintendo's favor, and kept the N64 from going into obscurity with Goldeneye. If it wasn't for Rare, Nintendo may have ended up like Sega. Capcom themselves used western ideas with some smashing success and some failures.texasgoldrush

You can't build an argument off of speculation. Could haves, and simple comments like "saved their ass" aren't cutting it man. Bring hard evidence or please don't bother. As for Capcom, they pretty much haven't adopted excessive western development in most of their actual successful titles. Want to provide examples please?

Not debating that they were a valuable asset but that was of nintendo's accord, they funded every one of rare's work and gave them state of the art tech to work with. They also did not "save nintendo's ass plain and simple", that's just ridiculous.

RE4 also is a poor excuse. It took a more "western, action heavy approach"? What the hell is that suspose to mean. If you look at RE4 its design philosophy and over the shoulder gameplay has been adopted by more modern day western devs but before its release they was not much out on the cube or any of the systems capcom dev'd on to say that they looked to the west other then your speculation. Action heavy is not a western trade mark, that's just not true. As for Inafune, yeah, he's gone, he didn't have much say in all of Capcom's productions. His opinion is also irrelevant to what Capcom has actually doone and the only game I would even consider inspired by the west is RE. Doesn't that say something?

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="ActicEdge"]

You can't build an argument off of speculation. Could haves, and simple comments like "saved their ass" aren't cutting it man. Bring hard evidence or please don't bother. As for Capcom, they pretty much haven't adopted excessive western development in most of their actual successful titles. Want to provide examples please?

Not debating that they were a valuable asset but that was of nintendo's accord, they funded every one of rare's work and gave them state of the art tech to work with. They also did not "save nintendo's ass plain and simple", that's just ridiculous.

RE4 also is a poor excuse. It took a more "western, action heavy approach"? What the hell is that suspose to mean. If you look at RE4 its design philosophy and over the shoulder gameplay has been adopted by more modern day western devs but before its release they was not much out on the cube or any of the systems capcom dev'd on to say that they looked to the west other then your speculation. Action heavy is not a western trade mark, that's just not true. As for Inafune, yeah, he's gone, he didn't have much say in all of Capcom's productions. His opinion is also irrelevant to what Capcom has actually doone and the only game I would even consider inspired by the west is RE. Doesn't that say something?

its not just action heavy, it was shooter heavy.texasgoldrush

Being a shooter is not a Western quality.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]DKC - the biggest selling SNES game ever (thats not packed in)....before DKC's release, the Genesis was neck and neck with the SNES, that game turned the tide and SNES decisively won. Incorrect. Super Mario All Stars is the best-selling not bundled Snes game. And DKC is practically tied with SuperMario Kart. And prooffor the rest?

Goldeneye 007 - the second biggest seller after Mario 64 and helped popularize the shooter. Clearly Rare had a large part in Nintendo's success, especially in the 90's. Incorrect. The second biggest seller was Mario Kart 64.

Capcom's Resident Evil series took a western, more action heavy direction, and RE4 became one of its greatest hits (in fact, it was going to have dialogue choices, but it was removed). Being "action-heavy" is not a Western-specific quality. Not even close.IronBass

Corrections in blue.

1. Nope, its Donkey Kong Country...8 million sold...Mario kart is a close 2nd. All Stars was also a pack in.

2. Its close...both sold 9 million as of now

3. Its shooter heavy

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]its not just action heavy, it was shooter heavy.IronBass

Being a shooter is not a Western quality.

any japanese shooters? Very raretexasgoldrush

Way too many to list. I have no idea what makes you think they are "very rare", that's not even close to be true. Since the Nes days Japanese devs have been creating quality shooters.

After the edit: No idea why you're changing to first person (or pseudo FP, whatever that means). It's completely unrelated to the topic.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]any japanese shooters? Very rareIronBass

Way too many to list. I have no idea what makes you think they are "very rare", that's not even close to be true. Since the Nes days Japanese devs have been creating quality shooters.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]any japanese shooters? Very rareIronBass

Way too many to list. I have no idea what makes you think they are "very rare", that's not even close to be true. Since the Nes days Japanese devs have been creating quality shooters.

After the edit: No idea why you're changing to first person (or pseudo FP, whatever that means). It's completely unrelated to the topic.

first person, not Contratexasgoldrush

As I said, irrelevant. The discussion is about RE4 being action-focused, which then you changed to "shooter-focused". Already proven wrong.

And even so, plenty of TPS games have been in Japan.

Example 1 (1983), example 2 (1988 ).

but it is...RE4 uses that kind of combat.texasgoldrush

"That kind of combat" has a name. It's called shooting. Something Japanese games have been doing for a very long time now.

If it's first, third personor sidescrolling shooting is not relevant, the concept of shooting is basically the same in any form.

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]first person, not ContraIronBass

As I said, irrelevant. The discussion is about RE4 being action-focused, which then you changed to "shooter-focused". Already proven wrong.

And even so, plenty of TPS games have been in Japan.

Example 1 (1983), example 2 (1988).

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] but it is...RE4 uses that kind of combat.IronBass

"That kind of combat" has a name. It's called shooting. Something Japanese games have been doing for a very long time now.

If it's first, third personor sidescrolling shooting is not relevant, the concept of shooting is basically the same in any form.

they are on rails games...they are not true TPS in the way we use the term today. I originally said more focus on shooter combat in an earlier post...the "action heavy" comes from the change in direction as well.texasgoldrush

It was 1983 and 1988, of course they aren't 3D TPS as they are now, that's kinda obvious, isn't it?

The concept is exactly the same though. Third person perspective, shoot whatever moves.

I am using today's term for "shooter"...which is a genre. The one rooted from Wolfenstien 3d.texasgoldrush