Yeah that's what bugged me most about Metroid Prime. They put dialogue trees in and completely forgot what Metroid was all about.....oh waitThank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell. Retro is owned by Nintendo... :?[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]
The Legend of Zelda made by Western devs? ROFL no. Link caught up in waves of dialog trees? His choices giving him good or bad karma? Pass.
Bigboi500
Which Japanese property should have Western development?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]The DLC was a side story, it wasn't essential, but you saw another side of him. It would have never fit into the main game however. It fleshes him out more as a character, however, he had all the depth originally in the main game that was necessary. Every character is a plot device. Thats not a bad thing. And no, Pigsy can't be replaced, not only is he essential if they want to have connection to Journey of The West, but a character with a different personality would not have fit Pigsy's role. And don't mind that the story has critical acclaim, and so does Monkey and Trip.Slashkice
You're right, it's not a bad thing it's a terrible thing. If they're just plot devices they have no value, no worth as a character. I don't know how it can even be seen as anything but awful since the plot they're moving is just another rip of The Matrix.
And because you've done it several times now, let's just get this out of the way: I don't care if it's based on another story. Using a classic as inspiration is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for sucking. Also, don't play the Metacritic card - it's just lazy and you can do better than that.
Every character is a plot device in any narrative...there is no such thing as a character thats not a plot device. Sure the ending has some matrix influence, however, even in that scene, Trips actions are far more important. The game is so strongly character driven, it can get away with an ending like it did, because Pyramid's motives were never the focus, Trips character was. Face it, your one of the only few that doesn't like the story.....its too bad, because Ninja Theory's repuatation for storytelling got a huge boost from the game's release. And your problem with it is that you try to see stuff in the story that is just not there.
[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Thank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell. Retro is owned by Nintendo... :?Wasn't Rare also owned by Ninty at one time? I thought Microsoft just bought up shares of Rare so they could be independant, then bought them out.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] Yeah that's what bugged me most about Metroid Prime. They put dialogue trees in and completely forgot what Metroid was all about.....oh waitDarkLink77
Retro is owned by Nintendo... :?Wasn't Rare also owned by Ninty at one time? I thought Microsoft just bought up shares of Rare so they could be independant, then bought them out. Nintendo actually sold them because they didn't see a great future after most of the key talent left. Then Microsoft bought them.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Thank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell.
Bigboi500
[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Wasn't Rare also owned by Ninty at one time? I thought Microsoft just bought up shares of Rare so they could be independant, then bought them out. Nintendo actually sold them because they didn't see a great future after most of the key talent left. Then Microsoft bought them.Good move.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"] Retro is owned by Nintendo... :?DarkLink77
Yeah that's what bugged me most about Metroid Prime. They put dialogue trees in and completely forgot what Metroid was all about.....oh waitThank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell. What's not typical about them or unique about them? About the only thing they got is that they are owned by Nintendo. Which doesn't mean they aren't capable of making a massive disappointment in a franchise(ala Metroid Prime 3). Point is it's a matter of finding a western dev that could honestly pull off that styIe of game. FOr instance The Beyond Good and Evil team could do a damn good and unique Zelda experience given how good Beyond Good and Evil is. On the flip side a Bioware or Obsidian take on Zelda would be terrible.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]
The Legend of Zelda made by Western devs? ROFL no. Link caught up in waves of dialog trees? His choices giving him good or bad karma? Pass.
Bigboi500
Nintendo actually sold them because they didn't see a great future after most of the key talent left. Then Microsoft bought them.Good move. Outside of Microsoft being garbage and making them do Kinect games. I fail to see when Rare became bad? Both Viva Pinata games were great, and Nuts and Bolts was certainly a unique experience as far as platformers go. Unlike the other Banjo games you couldn't knock it for being a Mario 64 clone. Personally I thought Rare was hardly the issue. The userbase/platform/publisher was.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Wasn't Rare also owned by Ninty at one time? I thought Microsoft just bought up shares of Rare so they could be independant, then bought them out.
Bigboi500
[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Thank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell. What's not typical about them or unique about them? About the only thing they got is that they are owned by Nintendo. Which doesn't mean they aren't capable of making a massive disappointment in a franchise(ala Metroid Prime 3). Point is it's a matter of finding a western dev that could honestly pull off that styIe of game. FOr instance The Beyond Good and Evil team could do a damn good and unique Zelda experience given how good Beyond Good and Evil is. On the flip side a Bioware or Obsidian take on Zelda would be terrible. Yeah that was kinda my whole point all along, given the TC's love of those companies and his probable vision of a Zelda game. Eww.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] Yeah that's what bugged me most about Metroid Prime. They put dialogue trees in and completely forgot what Metroid was all about.....oh waitjg4xchamp
What's not typical about them (Retro)? They don't focus on heavy dialog like most Western devs do, for one thing.
What's not typical about them or unique about them? About the only thing they got is that they are owned by Nintendo. Which doesn't mean they aren't capable of making a massive disappointment in a franchise(ala Metroid Prime 3). Point is it's a matter of finding a western dev that could honestly pull off that styIe of game. FOr instance The Beyond Good and Evil team could do a damn good and unique Zelda experience given how good Beyond Good and Evil is. On the flip side a Bioware or Obsidian take on Zelda would be terrible. Yeah that was kinda my whole point all along, given the TC's love of those companies and his probable vision of a Zelda game. Eww.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Thank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell.
Bigboi500
What's not typical about them (Retro)? They don't focus on heavy dialog like most Western devs do, for one thing.
Metroid Prime 3 has more dialogue than any Metroid game should ever have. So clearly they will focus on it when they feel they need to or in that games case when they are TOLD to do so. Only reason why DK doesn't have it is because it's a Nintendo platformer. That and plenty of Japanese devs put effort into dialogue/voice acting, etc. While there are also western devs willing to go with a more minimal approach. Hence games like Amnesia or something.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Thank GOD Retro isn't your typical Wester dev. Thank GOD Microsoft hasn't flashed cash in their faces, sending another great developer to the plummets of mediocre hell.
What's not typical about them or unique about them? About the only thing they got is that they are owned by Nintendo. Which doesn't mean they aren't capable of making a massive disappointment in a franchise(ala Metroid Prime 3). Point is it's a matter of finding a western dev that could honestly pull off that styIe of game. FOr instance The Beyond Good and Evil team could do a damn good and unique Zelda experience given how good Beyond Good and Evil is. On the flip side a Bioware or Obsidian take on Zelda would be terrible. Yeah that was kinda my whole point all along, given the TC's love of those companies and his probable vision of a Zelda game. Eww.What's not typical about them (Retro)? They don't focus on heavy dialog like most Western devs do, for one thing.
However, Bioware would not even make a Zelda game, as they are owned by EA (I throw Obsidian's name around far more due to them being free developers). Retro's Metroid Prime games have extensive data log codexes that flesh out their games universe. So instead of dialogue, they use thier writing in a different way.What's not typical about them or unique about them? About the only thing they got is that they are owned by Nintendo. Which doesn't mean they aren't capable of making a massive disappointment in a franchise(ala Metroid Prime 3). Point is it's a matter of finding a western dev that could honestly pull off that styIe of game. FOr instance The Beyond Good and Evil team could do a damn good and unique Zelda experience given how good Beyond Good and Evil is. On the flip side a Bioware or Obsidian take on Zelda would be terrible. jg4xchampYeah that was kinda my whole point all along, given the TC's love of those companies and his probable vision of a Zelda game. Eww.
What's not typical about them (Retro)? They don't focus on heavy dialog like most Western devs do, for one thing.
Metroid Prime 3 has more dialogue than any Metroid game should ever have. So clearly they will focus on it when they feel they need to or in that games case when they are TOLD to do so. Only reason why DK doesn't have it is because it's a Nintendo platformer. That and plenty of Japanese devs put effort into dialogue/voice acting, etc. While there are also western devs willing to go with a more minimal approach. Hence games like Amnesia or something. Metroid Prime 3 is much better than Prime 2. Prime 2 is pretty much the blandest of the trilogy and the difficulty is unbalanced. The Emperor Ing battle is just simply not fun. Prime 1 > Prime 3 > Prime 2[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Yeah that was kinda my whole point all along, given the TC's love of those companies and his probable vision of a Zelda game. Eww.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] What's not typical about them or unique about them? About the only thing they got is that they are owned by Nintendo. Which doesn't mean they aren't capable of making a massive disappointment in a franchise(ala Metroid Prime 3). Point is it's a matter of finding a western dev that could honestly pull off that styIe of game. FOr instance The Beyond Good and Evil team could do a damn good and unique Zelda experience given how good Beyond Good and Evil is. On the flip side a Bioware or Obsidian take on Zelda would be terrible. texasgoldrush
What's not typical about them (Retro)? They don't focus on heavy dialog like most Western devs do, for one thing.
However, Bioware would not even make a Zelda game, as they are owned by EA (I throw Obsidian's name around far more due to them being free developers). Retro's Metroid Prime games have extensive data log codexes that flesh out their games universe. So instead of dialogue, they use thier writing in a different way.Yeah, a good and unobtrusive optional way.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Yeah that was kinda my whole point all along, given the TC's love of those companies and his probable vision of a Zelda game. Eww.Metroid Prime 3 has more dialogue than any Metroid game should ever have. So clearly they will focus on it when they feel they need to or in that games case when they are TOLD to do so. Only reason why DK doesn't have it is because it's a Nintendo platformer. That and plenty of Japanese devs put effort into dialogue/voice acting, etc. While there are also western devs willing to go with a more minimal approach. Hence games like Amnesia or something. Metroid Prime 3 is much better than Prime 2. Prime 2 is pretty much the blandest of the trilogy and the difficulty is unbalanced. The Emperor Ing battle is just simply not fun. Prime 1 > Prime 3 > Prime 2 Prime 3 is far too shootery for its own good. The boss battles flat out played much better, the difficulty was hardly a major issue(I personally never found Prime 2 difficult at all outside of the Boost guardian). Throw in a far more linear nature than any Metroid game should be, and it's borderline insulting. Especially given how weak the atmosphere was in comparison. As for the bland comment. I don't see how a Metroid game with level design that basically butcheres the environments to pocket arenas, and a gameplay experience that is far too shooterish for its own good is any less bland. It's only saving grace is the art direction, and some solid boss battles. Even then most of them couldn't be put in the same essay(forget sentence or paragraph) as the stuff in Prime 1 or Prime 2.What's not typical about them (Retro)? They don't focus on heavy dialog like most Western devs do, for one thing.
texasgoldrush
I'll agree on Prime 1 being the best, but Prime 2 was better than PRime 3. Better boss battles, the play didn't rely on a massive safety net(hyper mode), it was far more open and friendly towards sequence breaking(An element that defines Metroid). With the same level of excellence towards large atmospheric environments and environmental story telling that didn't get butchered by some main plot line that might as well have been from a Halo game.
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]Every character is a plot device in any narrative...there is no such thing as a character thats not a plot device. Sure the ending has some matrix influence, however, even in that scene, Trips actions are far more important. The game is so strongly character driven, it can get away with an ending like it did, because Pyramid's motives were never the focus, Trips character was. Face it, your one of the only few that doesn't like the story.....its too bad, because Ninja Theory's repuatation for storytelling got a huge boost from the game's release. And your problem with it is that you try to see stuff in the story that is just not there.Slashkice
Good characters are more than just plot devices. And no, while Monkey and Trip falling for eachother is cliched, I don't have a big problem with it, and you've yet to provide a compelling argument for why it isn't the case. My problem with Monkey and Trip is they're cookie-cutter characters and stereotypically reinforce gender roles in a painfully unoriginal manner.
The game is indeed character driven, and for that reason it fails as the characters are in no way compelling. And don't even get me started on the gameplay.
What's there to get into? button mashing with very little satisfaction, a broken leveling system where the health regen makes you far too strong from the get go, piss poor overly linear platforming that can be summed up as "just going through the motions", and uninteresting enemies to battle. Hmm It's almost as if those types of issues came up in another Ninja Theory game. ....hmmmm[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]What's there to get into? button mashing with very little satisfaction, a broken leveling system where the health regen makes you far too strong from the get go, piss poor overly linear platforming that can be summed up as "just going through the motions", and uninteresting enemies to battle. Hmm It's almost as if those types of issues came up in another Ninja Theory game. ....hmmmmSlashkice
When you're right, you're right. After two repeats of the same shallow gameplay and not even good for a video game stories, it's clear to me they're a one-trick pony. Their motion-capture team is talented, but that's it.
Eh I think their story telling(not the plots themselves) and presentation skills overall are beast. But Christ do they suck at making a game.[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]Eh I think their story telling(not the plots themselves) and presentation skills overall are beast. But Christ do they suck at making a game. Slashkice
Yeah, I guess I can give 'em story-telling too; they do well with voice-acting on top of animation. They still need work on presentation though, there's really no excuse not to have a stable 30 fps, and minimal, if any, screen-tearing in their games.
True. Although for a hack n slash game anything less than 60 is just uncalled for. DMC 4 did it. SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE(this includes Bayonetta. Dem frame rate dips were annoying).[QUOTE="Slashkice"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]Eh I think their story telling(not the plots themselves) and presentation skills overall are beast. But Christ do they suck at making a game. jg4xchamp
Yeah, I guess I can give 'em story-telling too; they do well with voice-acting on top of animation. They still need work on presentation though, there's really no excuse not to have a stable 30 fps, and minimal, if any, screen-tearing in their games.
True. Although for a hack n slash game anything less than 60 is just uncalled for. DMC 4 did it. SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE(this includes Bayonetta. Dem frame rate dips were annoying). Well, Capcom does make incredible game engines, if nothing else. :P[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"][QUOTE="Slashkice"]True. Although for a hack n slash game anything less than 60 is just uncalled for. DMC 4 did it. SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE(this includes Bayonetta. Dem frame rate dips were annoying). Well, Capcom does make incredible game engines, if nothing else. :P Eh they do it with static environments. I'd say they are a little overrated, but whatever. At least they still publish the best Zombie game(Dead Rising, because Left 4 Dead isn't it, COME AT ME SYSTEM WARS!!!!) and Street Fighter. Maybe one day they'll bring back Powerstone.Yeah, I guess I can give 'em story-telling too; they do well with voice-acting on top of animation. They still need work on presentation though, there's really no excuse not to have a stable 30 fps, and minimal, if any, screen-tearing in their games.
DarkLink77
Well, Capcom does make incredible game engines, if nothing else. :P Eh they do it with static environments. I'd say they are a little overrated, but whatever. At least they still publish the best Zombie game(Dead Rising, because Left 4 Dead isn't it, COME AT ME SYSTEM WARS!!!!) and Street Fighter. Maybe one day they'll bring back Powerstone.[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] True. Although for a hack n slash game anything less than 60 is just uncalled for. DMC 4 did it. SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE(this includes Bayonetta. Dem frame rate dips were annoying). jg4xchamp
Yes, but the engine works for everything.
I would pay incredible amounts of money for more Power Stone. And Left 4 Dead sucks, anyway. You're not going to offend anyone with that. You need to talk about how bad Half-Life 2 is. Oh, yeah. I went there. 8)
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]Every character is a plot device in any narrative...there is no such thing as a character thats not a plot device. Sure the ending has some matrix influence, however, even in that scene, Trips actions are far more important. The game is so strongly character driven, it can get away with an ending like it did, because Pyramid's motives were never the focus, Trips character was. Face it, your one of the only few that doesn't like the story.....its too bad, because Ninja Theory's repuatation for storytelling got a huge boost from the game's release. And your problem with it is that you try to see stuff in the story that is just not there.Slashkice
Good characters are more than just plot devices. And no, while Monkey and Trip falling for eachother is cliched, I don't have a big problem with it, and you've yet to provide a compelling argument for why it isn't the case. My problem with Monkey and Trip is they're cookie-cutter characters and stereotypically reinforce gender roles in a painfully unoriginal manner.
The game is indeed character driven, and for that reason it fails as the characters are in no way compelling. And don't even get me started on the gameplay.
and yet you have failed to give me any compelling evidence that Trip and Monkey are romantically involved. Its called subtlety...instead of forcing things, Enslaved makes the story elements feel far more natural. Most game companies force everything trying to be the best, instead of let talent take over. But thats where Alex Garland, a successful novelist and movie screenwriter comes in. Face it, your are in the vast minority, as the game's biggest critical and fan reception success was the characterization....which proved the difference between the 80 metacritic it has, to a 60 rating. Almost every Metacritic summary praises the story and its characters...and The Escapist sums it up the best http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/critic-reviews[QUOTE="Slashkice"][QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]Every character is a plot device in any narrative...there is no such thing as a character thats not a plot device. Sure the ending has some matrix influence, however, even in that scene, Trips actions are far more important. The game is so strongly character driven, it can get away with an ending like it did, because Pyramid's motives were never the focus, Trips character was. Face it, your one of the only few that doesn't like the story.....its too bad, because Ninja Theory's repuatation for storytelling got a huge boost from the game's release. And your problem with it is that you try to see stuff in the story that is just not there.texasgoldrush
Good characters are more than just plot devices. And no, while Monkey and Trip falling for eachother is cliched, I don't have a big problem with it, and you've yet to provide a compelling argument for why it isn't the case. My problem with Monkey and Trip is they're cookie-cutter characters and stereotypically reinforce gender roles in a painfully unoriginal manner.
The game is indeed character driven, and for that reason it fails as the characters are in no way compelling. And don't even get me started on the gameplay.
and yet you have failed to give me any compelling evidence that Trip and Monkey are romantically involved. Its called subtlety...instead of forcing things, Enslaved makes the story elements feel far more natural. Most game companies force everything trying to be the best, instead of let talent take over. But thats where Alex Garland, a successful novelist and movie screenwriter comes in. Face it, your are in the vast minority, as the game's biggest critical and fan reception success was the characterization....which proved the difference between the 80 metacritic it has, to a 60 rating. Almost every Metacritic summary praises the story and its characters...and The Escapist sums it up the best http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/critic-reviews how is that even something worth bringing up? A good chunk of people buy and like plenty of garbageMore importantly how is a review score even worth mentioning? It's a review. It's about as credible as your forum post. Entirely subjective, and only worth noting when it's backed up nicely. Let's not even get into the fact that videogame standards for story are rather pathetic, and the gaming journalism in general is a joke.
I want to see what Bethesda would do with a Final Fantasy game. Ultimate character customization, huge world full of chocobos, moogles, black, red, and white magics. Beast masters, knights, ninjas, samurais, geomancers, and all that craziness. I'd like to see that.
I wouldn't want just any western dev taking over a franchise, I'd want a very talented studio doing it.
What would be amazing to see would be a Retro Studio's zelda game. I'd love to see that.
and yet you have failed to give me any compelling evidence that Trip and Monkey are romantically involved. Its called subtlety...instead of forcing things, Enslaved makes the story elements feel far more natural. Most game companies force everything trying to be the best, instead of let talent take over. But thats where Alex Garland, a successful novelist and movie screenwriter comes in. Face it, your are in the vast minority, as the game's biggest critical and fan reception success was the characterization....which proved the difference between the 80 metacritic it has, to a 60 rating. Almost every Metacritic summary praises the story and its characters...and The Escapist sums it up the best http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/critic-reviews how is that even something worth bringing up? A good chunk of people buy and like plenty of garbage[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="Slashkice"]
Good characters are more than just plot devices. And no, while Monkey and Trip falling for eachother is cliched, I don't have a big problem with it, and you've yet to provide a compelling argument for why it isn't the case. My problem with Monkey and Trip is they're cookie-cutter characters and stereotypically reinforce gender roles in a painfully unoriginal manner.
The game is indeed character driven, and for that reason it fails as the characters are in no way compelling. And don't even get me started on the gameplay.
jg4xchamp
More importantly how is a review score even worth mentioning? It's a review. It's about as credible as your forum post. Entirely subjective, and only worth noting when it's backed up nicely. Let's not even get into the fact that videogame standards for story are rather pathetic, and the gaming journalism in general is a joke. One review is subjective....critical consensus and fan reception consensus is not. When multiple reviewers mention the same strengths and weaknesses,a critical consensus can be formed, which is then objective. Thats what Rotten Tomatoes uses, in every movie on their site, they sum up all the reviews, find the common praises and criticisms, and write a crticial consensus. The critical consensus for Enslaved is that the story and characters, as well as the environment were excellent, but the gameplay is mediocre and tedious.
Yes game journalism is a joke...the biggest reason why is because of hype leads to reviewers overscoring games (which then turn out to be divisive) and overlooking others. Unlike movie critics, who are hype immune basically, game critics are strongly affected by the hype.
However, for Enslaved, which is below the radar, hype doesn't come into play here.
how is that even something worth bringing up? A good chunk of people buy and like plenty of garbage[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"]
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] and yet you have failed to give me any compelling evidence that Trip and Monkey are romantically involved. Its called subtlety...instead of forcing things, Enslaved makes the story elements feel far more natural. Most game companies force everything trying to be the best, instead of let talent take over. But thats where Alex Garland, a successful novelist and movie screenwriter comes in. Face it, your are in the vast minority, as the game's biggest critical and fan reception success was the characterization....which proved the difference between the 80 metacritic it has, to a 60 rating. Almost every Metacritic summary praises the story and its characters...and The Escapist sums it up the best http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/critic-reviewstexasgoldrush
More importantly how is a review score even worth mentioning? It's a review. It's about as credible as your forum post. Entirely subjective, and only worth noting when it's backed up nicely. Let's not even get into the fact that videogame standards for story are rather pathetic, and the gaming journalism in general is a joke.One review is subjective....critical consensus and fan reception consensus is not. When multiple reviewers mention the same strengths and weaknesses,a critical consensus can be formed, which is then objective. Thats what Rotten Tomatoes uses, in every movie on their site, they sum up all the reviews, find the common praises and criticisms, and write a crticial consensus. The critical consensus for Enslaved is that the story and characters, as well as the environment were excellent, but the gameplay is mediocre and tedious.
Yes game journalism is a joke...the biggest reason why is because of hype leads to reviewers overscoring games (which then turn out to be divisive) and overlooking others. Unlike movie critics, who are hype immune basically, game critics are strongly affected by the hype.
However, for Enslaved, which is below the radar, hype doesn't come into play here.
A consensus of fan is totally subjective. The only objectivity towards it. Is that you can say x group likes the game. Nothing about their opinion suddenly becomes any more credible or make their words objective. Definitions. PleaseErm No. Multiple review sources think the storyline to MGS was stimulating, and you can get it from plenty of the fanbase. WIth very few of them calling it out for plotholes, over use of plot devices, or some of the worst writing known to man. A consensus is totally capable of having the crappiest of opinions. Again Objective? pfft not in this life time
Not to mention lower standards for plot, writing, voice acting, etc or complete lack of consistency. Enslaveds lack of a hype. Doesn't mean it's reviews are immune to the stupidity of game journalism.
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]and yet you have failed to give me any compelling evidence that Trip and Monkey are romantically involved. Its called subtlety...instead of forcing things, Enslaved makes the story elements feel far more natural. Most game companies force everything trying to be the best, instead of let talent take over. But thats where Alex Garland, a successful novelist and movie screenwriter comes in. Face it, your are in the vast minority, as the game's biggest critical and fan reception success was the characterization....which proved the difference between the 80 metacritic it has, to a 60 rating. Almost every Metacritic summary praises the story and its characters...and The Escapist sums it up the best http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/enslaved-odyssey-to-the-west/critic-reviewsSlashkice
Garland sure messed up on this one then...or was bringing him up supposed to make me go "a famous guy, that means it's good!" That's not how it works. I liked his previous work, it doesn't mean I'm going to like every one of his works thereafter. And clearly, I did not care for his work on Enslaved.
And I've already told you, bringing up metacritic is very lazy. I'm talking to you, not them.
And how did Garland mess up? You may not like it, but the work and story is praised. I did not like Social Network for a variety of reasons, but I am not going to say is a terrible movie.[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]And how did Garland mess up? You may not like it, but the work and story is praised. I did not like Social Network for a variety of reasons, but I am not going to say is a terrible movie.Slashkice
Stereotypical characters and a poor plot; I've mentioned this before.
There's plenty of movies I didn't like and I will say they're terrible. People aren't going to kill you for disagreeing.
sure, they were stereotypical (well many characters based from the centuries old Journey To the West are), but the relationship between them is not. Most games would go the Sands of Time route. Really, Trips only a steroetypical female because they made her female instead of male, which her JOTW counterpart was. In fact, he (Xuanzang or Tripitaka) was even more cowardly and in need of protection than Enslaved's Trip.One review is subjective....critical consensus and fan reception consensus is not. When multiple reviewers mention the same strengths and weaknesses,a critical consensus can be formed, which is then objective. Thats what Rotten Tomatoes uses, in every movie on their site, they sum up all the reviews, find the common praises and criticisms, and write a crticial consensus. The critical consensus for Enslaved is that the story and characters, as well as the environment were excellent, but the gameplay is mediocre and tedious.[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"]
[QUOTE="jg4xchamp"] how is that even something worth bringing up? A good chunk of people buy and like plenty of garbage
More importantly how is a review score even worth mentioning? It's a review. It's about as credible as your forum post. Entirely subjective, and only worth noting when it's backed up nicely. Let's not even get into the fact that videogame standards for story are rather pathetic, and the gaming journalism in general is a joke.jg4xchamp
Yes game journalism is a joke...the biggest reason why is because of hype leads to reviewers overscoring games (which then turn out to be divisive) and overlooking others. Unlike movie critics, who are hype immune basically, game critics are strongly affected by the hype.
However, for Enslaved, which is below the radar, hype doesn't come into play here.
A consensus of fan is totally subjective. The only objectivity towards it. Is that you can say x group likes the game. Nothing about their opinion suddenly becomes any more credible or make their words objective. Definitions. PleaseErm No. Multiple review sources think the storyline to MGS was stimulating, and you can get it from plenty of the fanbase. WIth very few of them calling it out for plotholes, over use of plot devices, or some of the worst writing known to man. A consensus is totally capable of having the crappiest of opinions. Again Objective? pfft not in this life time
Not to mention lower standards for plot, writing, voice acting, etc or complete lack of consistency. Enslaveds lack of a hype. Doesn't mean it's reviews are immune to the stupidity of game journalism.
Actually the narrratives to the MGS series has divided critics and fans, noting the plotholes and poor writing. The only consensus of the storytelling in the MGS series is its divisive nature..However, the stories and the themes are above most games.
Video games can't be judged the same to movies or books. Its okay to have lower standards in regards to storytelling because games also have to be judged by the way they play. Really, games will never be a literatures level and it is simply unfair to judge them in that level. If you compare Enslaved to the work its inspired by, Enslaved loses badly, but as a game, its storytelling is excellent.
A consensus of fans opinions is important...it is a way of how game makers improve their games. For example, the fan consensus of ME2's planet scanning is highly negative....would it make sense for Bioware to repeat that feature in ME3? No. Fan consensus is extremely important in th egame industry. The trouble with the FF series is that SE completely ignores it.
Regarding Retro Studio, I honestly don't think they could pull off Zelda. They may have successfully recreated Metroid and Donkey Kong, but these games didn't really have that 'Japanese' feel to them to begin with, besides maybe the mecha suit in Metroid. Zelda, however, is a completely different ball park. Asking Retro to recreate Zelda is like asking them to create a JRPG without the stats, which is pretty much exactly what Zelda is: a JRPG without the stats, to the point that Zelda was even regarded as a JRPG for a very long time, until recent years. It's rare to see a Western developer produce a really good JRPG-style game, with the exception of indie developers (such as the RPG Maker community, which has produced some really good JRPG-style games over the years), which is why it's rare to see a successful Zelda-style game from a Western developer as well. The last time a Western developer created a Zelda game, the result was the Zelda CD-i games, which are among the worst games of all time. The same thing obviously wouldn't happen to Retro, who can probably make a good game using Zelda as a source material, but the problem is that it just wouldn't really be Zelda anymore.
As for Ninja Theory, I think a lot of gamers are being somewhat unfaily harsh on them. Yes, the new 'Dante' in DmC isn't exactly the Dante that DMC fans have come to know, but we can't really judge the entire game just on that. The character redesign was just a bit misguided, with Ninja Theory probably trying to make Dante too 'Japanese' by turning him into an angsty emo teen out of a JRPG, while trying to make him 'British' at the same time by making him a smoking drugged-out teen out of Skins (a popular UK TV show), even though the original Dante hard hardly anything in common with either. I haven't yet played their other games, but from the videos I've seen of Enslaved, it has a vibrant colourful visual look to it that seems to have more in common with Japanese games rather than other Western games, so Ninja Theory do seem like the kind of developer that just might be able to pull off that 'Japanese' feel, at least visually, though we'll never really know until DmC comes out.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but considering how many Castlevania fans thought Castlevania: Lords of Shadow looked generic compared to previous Castlevania games, I don't really think they should go the same route with Zelda. The Zelda games have always had a JRPG/anime look and atmosphere, even the 'realistic' N64 games. Besides, a Link who looks like Gabriel? I think I'll pass.
I don't mean to sound cynical, but considering how many Castlevania fans thought Castlevania: Lords of Shadow looked generic compared to previous Castlevania games, I don't really think they should go the same route with Zelda. The Zelda games have always had a JRPG/anime look and atmosphere, even the 'realistic' N64 games. Besides, a Link who looks like Gabriel? I think I'll pass.
How did it look generic? I have never seen a Castle like that before, with snow and ice all over. Or the phenominal setting of Chapter 4. In fact, Lords of Shadow broke from the generic settings in the series. Before that, it was in the same castle and the same woods. Rehash, outside of Portrait of Ruin. Actually I want a grown up Link or Zelda as the protagonist.Oh look, another crusade against Japan.
And this surprises you? :lol:Oh look, another crusade against Japan.
hakanakumono
or the fact that Nintendo, SquareEnix, Capcom, NamcoBandai, and Konami have relied more an dmore on Western ideas and Western developers. Facts are facts....and the West revived Donkey Kong and Metroid.Oh look, another crusade against Japan.
hakanakumono
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]or the fact that Nintendo, SquareEnix, Capcom, NamcoBandai, and Konami have relied more an dmore on Western ideas and Western developers. Facts are facts....and the West revived Donkey Kong and Metroid. That's because Square and Capcom have lost nearly all their key talent, and Nintendo has ALWAYS had one Western dev to make games for them.Oh look, another crusade against Japan.
texasgoldrush
FYI System Wars, if you've played the original Parasite Eve ... you might be interested in knowing that it's development was a fusion between east and west.
[QUOTE="hakanakumono"]or the fact that Nintendo, SquareEnix, Capcom, NamcoBandai, and Konami have relied more an dmore on Western ideas and Western developers. Facts are facts....and the West revived Donkey Kong and Metroid.Oh look, another crusade against Japan.
texasgoldrush
My experience with the metroid series is limited, but I prefer Fusion and Zero Mission to Prime.
Western studies have also effectively failed at capturing Silent Hill.
To be sure, there could be some interesting IPs in the hands of western developers. But as far as handing IPs over to the west, no I can't agree with that. Any discussion of this, however, would be wasted on someone who uses "Japanese" as a synonym for "bad" and would like nothing more to see the Japanese industry lose it's identity.
The whole antagonism between East and West is ridiculous. Both have contributed immensely to make gaming what is now, in different ways and in different times.
And even if they hadn't, that's a very pointless discussion, since it changes nothing and serves no purpose.
FYI System Wars, if you've played the original Parasite Eve ... you might be interested in knowing that it's development was a fusion between east and west.
[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"][QUOTE="hakanakumono"]
Oh look, another crusade against Japan.
or the fact that Nintendo, SquareEnix, Capcom, NamcoBandai, and Konami have relied more an dmore on Western ideas and Western developers. Facts are facts....and the West revived Donkey Kong and Metroid.My experience with the metroid series is limited, but I prefer Fusion and Zero Mission to Prime.
Western studies have also effectively failed at capturing Silent Hill.
To be sure, there could be some interesting IPs in the hands of western developers. But as far as handing IPs over to the west, no I can't agree with that. Any discussion of this, however, would be wasted on someone who uses "Japanese" as a synonym for "bad" and would like nothing more to see the Japanese industry lose it's identity.
Metroid Prime is far more well recieved than Zero Mission and Fusion....Fusion was pretty good, the setting was great....Zero Mission was lackluster (hell, they rehash Super Metroid bosses like Ridley). Other M was atrocious. You may like Fusion and Zero Mission better, but it was the Prime trilogy that resuurected the franchise. Japanese game companies rehash their products far more often than Western developers do (in which in the West, the only rehashes we have are sports games and competitive shooters). Look at Castlevania.....they rehashed Symphony of the Night six more times...and it feels tired after awhile. They got the message before they got the message and gave MercurySteam a Castlevania game which is not "Metroidvania". Games like Okami and Shadow of the Colossus are become more and more rare in the japanese game industry ( I consider those tow games the best games of the PS2).. Their innovative titles are becoming less and less mainstream as well. Over here, we had Assassin's Creed, a very original game, sell millions of copies, shockingly so as the first game got mixed reviews.Metroid Prime is far more well recieved than Zero Mission and Fusion....Fusion was pretty good, the setting was great....Zero Mission was lackluster (hell, they rehash Super Metroid bosses like Ridley). Other M was atrocious. You may like Fusion and Zero Mission better, but it was the Prime trilogy that resuurected the franchise.texasgoldrush
Metroid Fusion was also a factor on the resurrection of the Metroid franchise. And why is critical reception imporant now, and not when comparing Lords of Shadows to GoWIII? ;)
Japanese game companies rehash their products far more often than Western developers do (in which in the West, the only rehashes we have are sports games and competitive shooters). Look at Castlevania.....they rehashed Symphony of the Night six more times...and it feels tired after awhile. They got the message before they got the message and gave MercurySteam a Castlevania game which is not "Metroidvania".texasgoldrush
If that's your definition of rehash, then West is as guilty of it as the East. GoW, GeoW, CoD, Halo, Assassin's Creed, etc etc, the vast majority of sequels are rehashes. And they are released faster than the Castlevania games you listed. Lords of Shadow itself is a (bad) GoW rehash.
Games like Okami and Shadow of the Colossus are become more and more rare in the japanese game industry ( I consider those tow games the best games of the PS2).. Their innovative titles are becoming less and less mainstream as well. Over here, we had Assassin's Creed, a very original game, sell millions of copies, shockingly so as the first game got mixed reviews.texasgoldrush
There was nothing particularly innovative on AC, and if we judge innovation that lightly, games like Demon's Souls are way more innovative.
And there again, it remains the point of how useless is to draw a line between the East and West. Pointless.
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