Who Killed Rare?

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SecretPolice

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#1 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

Nobody, that's who !!

Take that haters !! :P

Anyway, I think many know I remain a big fan of Rare and think they've done pretty damn well this gen ( tho lately hmm. :P ) and expect big things from them next gen !! :D

Thoughts ?

The Story.

---Link

Unable to post full article so link for full story.

Who Killed Rare?

BySimon Parkin Published8 February, 2012

Did Microsoft ruin Britain's greatest game studio?

What went wrong? And who - or perhaps what - is to blame?

Elements of Power

"Microsoft and Rare was a bad marriage from the beginning. The groom was rich. The bride was beautiful. But they wanted to make different games and they wanted to make them in different ways."

Martin Hollis joined Rare in 1993, a year before Nintendo bought a 49 per cent stake in the developer. His first project was the coin-operated Killer Instinct, an arcade machine for which he coded an entire operating system. Following the Nintendo buyout Hollis, a coding genius, created Goldeneye, laid the blueprint for Perfect Dark and finally left for America to help develop the GameCube console. His time at the company coincided with what many view as its golden years, a period during which Rare simultaneously broke new ground and perfected old with a string of blockbusters stamped with the Nintendo seal of approval.

'Who Killed Rare?' Screenshot 1

Rare's Twycross headquarters.

"Rare was always looking East at Japanese and Nintendo's games in particular, with their open-hearted childlike vibrancy and playfulness," explains Hollis. "Meanwhile, Microsoft had a US-centric ****to its games, a flair of machismo and testosterone. For the first decade after the Microsoft sale the major problem for the creativity of the studio has been direction. Looking in from the outside it felt as if neither Microsoft or Rare could work out where it was headed."

From the inside the studio's gates, too, the changes to Rare introduced by Microsoft tampered with the recipe of the company's success, leaving teams feeling disorientated, and even downcast.

"The changes were imperceptible at first, but became increasingly rapid as time went on," says Phil Tossell. Hired by Hollis in 1997, he cut his teeth on Diddy Kong Racing before working as lead engineer on Dinosaur Planet (which later became Starfox Adventures). He was present at the company through the Microsoft acquisition, and was promoted to Director of Gameplay in 2009 when he oversaw development of Kinect Sports. "For me personally, the atmosphere became much more stifling and a lot more stressful," he says. "There was an overall feeling that you weren't really in control of what you were doing and that you weren't really trusted either.

"There was also a gradual introduction of certain Microsoft behaviours that crept into the way we did things: lots more meetings, performance reviews and far more regard for your position within the company," he said. "While these weren't necessarily good or bad per se, they began to erode the traditional Rare culture and way of doing things. Many of the people who'd been there a long time found these changes extremely hard to accept."

Trouble in Paradise

That culture appears to be the secret of Rare's success in the 1990s, a unique setup in game development at the time. "The general feeling at the time was that, as a company, we were invincible and that anything was possible," says Tossell. "It was incredible to be surrounded by so many talented people, all of whom were single-mindedly focused on making the best games that we could. I never realised it at the time, but I think what was most unique was the sense of freedom and responsibility that the Stampers gave to each team. They trusted us to get the job done. As a result, you always felt like you wanted to do the absolute best that you could for them."

'Who Killed Rare?' Screenshot 5

Martin Hollis.

Hollis agrees: "Mainly Tim and Chris left us to our own devices. They recognised the talent and left teams to make their game, intervening only when a team was broken or under-performing in their judgement. This was a wise move as it left us self-motivated. I'd say 70 or 80 per cent of the employees were super energised and focused on producing something incredible. I don't recall anyone saying so, but I'm certain it was at the back of all our minds that we were privileged to be in that situation, amazingly well funded, great colleagues, and a sweetheart relationship with Nintendo.

"That's not to say that it was easy. The hours were long and the environment was very competitive: not in the sense of team members competing with each other, but competition between teams. I think this was a deliberate ploy by Tim and Chris to push each team further and harder.

"The old site was a converted farmhouse and by the time I joined there were already around 100 staff and fitting all the cars in was literally like completing a jigsaw puzzle. Each team was in a separate barn and their access key only worked on their barn. It's been so long that I can't actually remember which barn I was in, but we were upstairs and below was the Banjo-Kazooie team. Work always began at 9 on the dot. Lunch was just 30 minutes and then it was back to work. Most days I would work until around 10pm, but it really depended on what you were doing at the time. It wasn't unusual to do 60 or more hours' overtime a week."

In The Perfect Dark

Despite the critical and commercial success the studio enjoyed during the Nintendo 64 years, rumours soon began circulating about a potential buyout. "Rare was famous for its rumour mill, largely on account of each team being segregated," says Tossell. "So there were always a lot of rumours swirling around about a buyout. Many teams were between projects at this time, so it was really distracting, but I had my head down on completing Starfox and so I didn't pay as much attention. I was actually glad to be busy at the time. I guess our only concern was getting the game finished and released before any buyout occurred."

'Who Killed Rare?' Screenshot 3

Viva Piñata.

Justin Cook, designer on Viva Piñata, worked in the testing department in 1999 when the most junior staff members began to hear murmurs of a buyout. "N64 had been disappointing for Nintendo - well, in comparison to the success of SNES - and GameCube didn't look like it was going to change their fortunes. Back in testing at the time we were stupidly cocky and thought that Rare was the hottest studio in the world. There was all kinds of gossip about potential buyers. It felt exciting rather than nerve-wracking, which probably shows how far off the mark we were. Microsoft didn't even crop up as a potential buyer until late in the day. I believe there were already some substantial dealings with Activision before Microsoft appeared as a potential buyer."

In fact, Rare had been looking for a potential buyer for some years by the time discussions with Microsoft began. "The company was on the market for several years, two years certainly, and this was driven by the majority owners Tim, Chris and Joel Hochberg," says Hollis. "The majority of middle management were enthusiastic followers of the idea but I always felt uncomfortable. EA, Activision, Disney and obviously Nintendo were all mooted. In the end I understand Mr Yamauchi [Nintendo's President] declined to offer more than a fraction of the value Rare was asking; shrewdly, it would seem. Meanwhile Microsoft had a strategic reason to buy, two reasons really: firstly so Nintendo would not have Rare's games, and secondly so that Microsoft would."

Killer Instinct

At the time, Ed Fries, the architect of Microsoft Game Studios and the broker of the Rare acquisition, believed the developer was out of bounds. "A few years before the acquisition, I had a chance to meet the Stamper brothers for the first time," he says. "We spent about an hour together and got to know each other. At the time I didn't think an acquisition would be possible because of their close relationship with Nintendo. It was a couple of years later when people from Rare reached out to us to explain what their situation was.

"They were 50 per cent owned by Nintendo and Nintendo had an option to acquire the other half of the company by a certain date. If they didn't exercise that option then Rare had the option to find a buyer for Nintendo's half. Nintendo had already extended the option by one year, but it looked like they weren't going to acquire the other half of Rare, so the Rare guys started looking around to see if anyone else might be interested. We were a logical choice for them to call."

"I probably heard about a buyout officially when Tim and Chris sat down with all the leads to talk with them about it," says Tossell. "They were very open in regards to the options and what it might mean. Initially I think there were three possibilities: Nintendo, Activision and Microsoft. We actually had a show of hands in the meeting to indicate which of the options we preferred, but obviously in the end it was really down to major shareholders..."

Fries knew that other publishers were courting Rare, and, despite making a fast move, it looked as though Microsoft had missed its opportunity. "We knew there were other bidders," he says. "We wanted the company and made an offer, but were told that Rare had decided to go with Activision instead. I was desperate for more experienced console developers and there just weren't any other companies like Rare on the market so we raised our offer, but were told they had decided to go with Activision. Then the Activision deal fell apart for some reason and so they came back to us and asked if we were still interested. We said we were and the deal was completed relatively quickly."

Microsoft Office

Once the deal had been signed the question for Microsoft was how to manage the culture shift for staff. "By this point we had acquired quite a few studios and had tried many different strategies," explains Fries. "What seemed to work best was to preserve the corporate culture of each studio as much as possible so we tried not to be too heavy-handed. We thought the employees would want to think of themselves as working for Rare, not Microsoft, but apparently some people who worked there were disappointed we didn't come in and make more changes. At least that's the impression I had at the time."

For Cook, as for Tossell, the changes in the studio culture were slow and almost imperceptible at first, and many had a positive effect on the staff. "One of the biggest changes was the freedom to talk about projects that you weren't working on," he says. "We were allowed to use the internet during working hours and we were allowed to listen to music while working, so a lot of the early changes were positive to morale."

However, in time it became clear that everyone had underestimated how much of the studio's success was down Nintendo's gentle steering. "It seemed like Microsoft was really a novice in the games industry and for some time they left us to try and see how things worked," Cook explains. "They wanted hit games for their console and since they weren't sure how to go about it they trusted Rare to do what was necessary. The problem here was that Rare was a very long way from the very corporate structure of Microsoft and when Rare had made games it wasn't in isolation from Nintendo but as a creative partnership.

'Who Killed Rare?' Screenshot 2

Justin Cook talking to a younger Eurogamer Editor Tom Bramwell.

"The kind of support that Nintendo offered wasn't available at Microsoft because Microsoft hadn't the experience. Ed Fries was aware of this, he was a very understanding person and wanted to foster studio culture and allow studios like Rare to build a space for themselves inside the Microsoft structure. Microsoft had a strong corporate identity and was very successful so it was only a matter of time until they applied their tried-and-tested corporate success to their new studio acquisitions."

About a year after the acquisition Fries left Microsoft and the changes became more pronounced. "The biggest change for me was the closing of the testing department. I'd already 'escaped' into design but the shock of losing the up-and-coming talent being developed in testing was a big wake-up call. Looking back now it seems obvious to me that games were bigger and took longer to develop. It made little business sense to keep people employed without work between projects. Still, that doesn't account for the human cost of redundancy or the talent that was lost when testing was no longer an in-house concern.

"The other staffing change was the introduction of a producer role. The producer was someone who smoothed out development and took some of the heat off the project leads so they could do what was needed, to get the game done. Producers were a new thing to Rare. It wasn't a role that was instantly understood, and each project had a Rare producer and a Microsoft producer - one either side of the Atlantic. Rare managed without them before because game teams were smaller and could be controlled by the team. It was another sign of the changes in the industry."

Two years after the acquisition, the announcement came that the Stamper brothers were leaving the company to explore new ventures. While Fries is uncertain as to whether this had anything to do with Microsoft's changes to the studio ("I don't know why they chose to leave or if it had anything to do with how they were treated by Microsoft after I left") Hollis is sure that it was a significant contributor to their decision. "On a human psychology and organisational motivation side level, the money-based motivation of bonuses shrivelled as games became increasingly competitive.

"Meanwhile, Rare's games became unsuccessful. The other money-based motivation of shares was a one-shot. Once it paid off I guess Chris and Tim lost all interest and energy, effectively sitting out their stipulated term. This passivity percolated down through the whole company."

Bad Fur Day

So did Microsoft ruin Britain's greatest game developer? "On a personal level, the old Rare was better for me," says Tossell. "It was much more in tune with the kind of place I want to work and the kind of people I want to work with. There was much greater freedom, personal responsibility and creative input.

"But taking a wider view, I think what has happened to Rare really just reflects what has happened in the industry at large: larger teams, larger budgets and reduced risk. And in that sense I think the Rare of today is in a better position to deal with the demands of the modern game industry. It was undoubtedly a challenging process for everyone at Rare and I'm sure at Microsoft as well, but ultimately I think it was necessary for the continued survival of Rare. The games industry is driven by certain cycles, and with escalating team sizes and production costs, I don't think the Rare of old could have continued as it was."

Cook agrees: "You can't compare 'old' and 'new' Rare because the comparison is no more valid than comparing steam engines to bullet trains. What is incredible is that Rare still exists. It is still making high-quality games that millions of people play. There have been bigger and more successful studios but there aren't many that are still in business and going strong. Rare is a survivor and as we approach the next massive upheaval in the games industry it would be foolish to write off a studio as talented and adaptable as Rare."

'Who Killed Rare?' Screenshot 4

Ed Fries.

Tossell is eager to point out that the studio is still home to some of the best talent in the industry: "A lot has been made by press and fans of the fact that many old-time Rare employees are no longer with the company, and that how somehow as a result that there's no talent left there anymore," he says. "But I can safely say there are still many talented people there and I wish them continued future success. My only regret is that some of the cool prototypes we were working on never got to see the light of day."

Few who worked at or with Rare have bad things to say about the company. Everyone interviewed for this feature wished the company well and emphasised how much they respect the current staff working there. For Hollis, there is a renewed sense of hope and direction at the studio. "Maybe the going was tough in the early 2000s but it feels they now have a good direction with Xbox avatars and Kinect Sports. I wish them the best, and I'm looking forward to their next game with great affection."

But it's difficult to square this positivity with the reality of Rare's current output. Viva Piñata and Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts are games that demonstrate the clear talent and ability still at the studio. But, arguably, Rare has lost the ability to package and present its ideas in a way that feels contemporary. Today's Rare games feel outdated, as if the company has maintained a ****that has slipped from fashion and failed to transcend it. For all the fondness and admiration of these ex-staff, there's a faint undercurrent of melancholy and loss of a time that no longer exists.

But for Fries, the man who bought Rare, that seed of creative brilliance, symbolised by Miyamoto's bonsai, which still stands short in Rare's grounds, can be found in even the company's most conflicted releases. "My seven-year-old son woke me up a couple mornings ago because he couldn't find Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts," he says. "As you might imagine, he has lots of games to choose from in our house. But that's the one he wanted to play. That game, of all the games. It says to me that there is still some magic left at Rare."

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Heil68

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#2 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60835 Posts
MS did and their attempt to chase the Wii's pot of gold. Rare is dead and its a shell of its former self, left to slowly rot away making casual garbage in the dismal abyss that is known as Kinect. Sad really.
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Grawse

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#3 Grawse
Member since 2010 • 4342 Posts

.

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tomarlyn

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#4 tomarlyn
Member since 2005 • 20148 Posts
Great article, Ninty should have done its best to keep them.
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SecretPolice

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#5 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

.

Grawse

:?

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Demonjoe93

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#6 Demonjoe93
Member since 2009 • 9869 Posts

.

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Sentinator

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#7 Sentinator
Member since 2011 • 244 Posts

Rare killed themselves and Nintendo saw the quality going down. Both Conker's bad fur day and starfox adventures lacked longevity. Neither had side quests or collectibles. Where are all the jiggies? Where are all the little bananas? No where to be seen. They were both much shorter than the previous games and both had a straight line to the end. The major staff had left Rare after perfect dark. People really can't see bad fur day was terrible quality compared to Rare's other games because they are blinded by the toilet humour.

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nintendoboy16

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#8 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 42247 Posts
Great article, Ninty should have done its best to keep them.tomarlyn
What would they have done? :|
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SecretPolice

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#9 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

.

Demonjoe93

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Rhys2SkilleD

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#10 Rhys2SkilleD
Member since 2012 • 149 Posts

lol?

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ShadowDeathX

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#11 ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11699 Posts
[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]Great article, Ninty should have done its best to keep them.nintendoboy16
What would they have done? :|

Buy up some the Stampers Brother's shares in the company before Microsoft came in.
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waltefmoney

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#12 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

Rare killed Rare.

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Eponique

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#13 Eponique
Member since 2007 • 17918 Posts

I read the first 3 paragraphs after the picture of that building/house, and after the picture of the developer I saw 10 more paragraphs and I was all

.

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SecretPolice

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#14 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

I read the first 3 paragraphs after the picture of that building/house, and after the picture of the developer I saw 10 more paragraphs and I was all

.

Eponique

:lol: Funny pic is funny. :P

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tjricardo089

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#15 tjricardo089
Member since 2010 • 7429 Posts

.

Grawse

Make that two of us.

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rilpas

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#16 rilpas
Member since 2012 • 8161 Posts

I think it was a combination of Nintendo, Microsoft, The Stamper Brothers, Rare's fans and even RARE itself, all of them had a hand in killing rare

Nintendo never bought RARE and often made decisions that RARE didn't agree with like turning Dinossaur Planet into starfox or the half-hearted support Nintendo offered for Conker

Microsoft for leaving RARE without a clear direction while slowly changing the internal policy of RARE (at least that's what the article says)

The Stamper Brothers for leaving RARE once they got rich from the buyout, which left Rare without a clear path

Rare's fans for never giving Rare a shot after the merger (Viva Pinata, Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise and Kameo are great games, but sold very poorly)

and Rare itself for thinking it was the best studio ever (once again, the article's words)

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fadersdream

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#17 fadersdream
Member since 2006 • 3154 Posts

I read it, pretty good article.

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SecretPolice

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#18 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

I read it, pretty good article.

fadersdream

Enjoy, you earned it.

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R4gn4r0k

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#19 R4gn4r0k  Online
Member since 2004 • 49170 Posts

MS ruined them by making them work on those stupid Avatars and Kinect games. Where is that Killer Instinct game they teased us with ? Pushed aside to make kinect games:(

I see a lot of people saying they started to suck after they left nintendo but Kameo, Conker: Reloaded, Viva Pinata and Nuts & Bolts were still great games. It's a shame we'll never see a sequel to kameo.

I can't say I'm as optimistic as you about what they have in store next-gen because I'm a 100% sure it will be of the same quality as Kinect Sports, anyone with talent has left the studio a while ago.

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SecretPolice

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#20 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

MS ruined them by making them work on those stupid Avatars and Kinect games. Where is that Killer Instinct game they teased us with ? Pushed aside to make kinect games:(

I see a lot of people saying they started to suck after they left nintendo but Kameo, Conker: Reloaded, Viva Pinata and Nuts & Bolts were still great games. It's a shame we'll never see a sequel to kameo.

I can't say I'm as optimistic as you about what they have in store next-gen because I'm a 100% sure it will be of the same quality as Kinect Sports, anyone with talent has left the studio a while ago.

R4gn4r0k

Eh, I got a real soft spot for Rare so ya know, I may be too optomistic or hmm, some may say wishful thinking. :P

On the last part, I think the entire BK team remain intact and we have just gotta see a Banjo Threeie next gen, got to !!

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#21 freedomfreak
Member since 2004 • 52566 Posts

It's a fvcking shame Microsoft is making them developer those Kinect games.

I wanted a Kameo sequel.

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tomarlyn

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#22 tomarlyn
Member since 2005 • 20148 Posts
[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]Great article, Ninty should have done its best to keep them.nintendoboy16
What would they have done? :|

Buy them outright, what the hell do you think? If you read it you'll see how they lost focus after leaving Nintendo's guidance.
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#23 Pug-Nasty
Member since 2009 • 8508 Posts

It was the one-armed man!

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#24 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 42247 Posts
[QUOTE="nintendoboy16"][QUOTE="tomarlyn"]Great article, Ninty should have done its best to keep them.tomarlyn
What would they have done? :|

Buy them outright, what the hell do you think? If you read it you'll see how they lost focus after leaving Nintendo's guidance.

Many would argue they lost their focus with Nintendo because of three words: STAR FOX ADVENTURES!
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tomarlyn

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#25 tomarlyn
Member since 2005 • 20148 Posts
[QUOTE="nintendoboy16"][QUOTE="tomarlyn"][QUOTE="nintendoboy16"] What would they have done? :|

Buy them outright, what the hell do you think? If you read it you'll see how they lost focus after leaving Nintendo's guidance.

Many would argue they lost their focus with Nintendo because of three words: STAR FOX ADVENTURES!

Which wasn't supposed to have anything to do with Starfox and still considered an amazing launch game.
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nintendoboy16

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#26 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 42247 Posts

[QUOTE="nintendoboy16"][QUOTE="tomarlyn"]Buy them outright, what the hell do you think? If you read it you'll see how they lost focus after leaving Nintendo's guidance.tomarlyn
Many would argue they lost their focus with Nintendo because of three words: STAR FOX ADVENTURES!

Which wasn't supposed to have anything to do with Starfox and still considered an amazing launch game.

But it was LAMBASTED by the fanbase (though I like it and Star Fox is my favorite IP from Nintendo. Too bad they killed it after Star Fox 64 3D). Star Fox Adventures never even released at launch. It launched in 2002, ironically the same year ANOTHER cancelled N64 game released on the GameCube.

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sonic1564

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#27 sonic1564
Member since 2008 • 3265 Posts

Rare killed Rare

They literally took the rope, put it on a pole or something, and hung themselves.

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waltefmoney

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#28 waltefmoney
Member since 2010 • 18030 Posts

Rare killed Rare

They literally took the rope, put it on a pole or something, and hung themselves.

sonic1564

Nah, they slashed their wrists vertically.

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DarkGamer007

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#29 DarkGamer007
Member since 2008 • 6033 Posts

Rare killed Rare.

waltefmoney

This, they burnt themselves out with rediculious working conditions which caused much of the talent at the Studio to leave, once Microsoft purchased Rare, it was already on its death bed.

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kuraimen

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#30 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
lol @ wall of text and M$ killed them.
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tomarlyn

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#31 tomarlyn
Member since 2005 • 20148 Posts

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"][QUOTE="nintendoboy16"] Many would argue they lost their focus with Nintendo because of three words: STAR FOX ADVENTURES!nintendoboy16

Which wasn't supposed to have anything to do with Starfox and still considered an amazing launch game.

But it was LAMBASTED by the fanbase (though I like it and Star Fox is my favorite IP from Nintendo. Too bad they killed it after Star Fox 64 3D). Star Fox Adventures never even released at launch. It launched in 2002, ironically the same year ANOTHER cancelled N64 game released on the GameCube.

I don't care, I've heard nothing but praise. Granted I was wrong about its release, could have been thinking about Rogue Leader. But regardless thats splitting hairs pretty fine and Rare would definitley be better in Nintendo's hands right now.
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SecretPolice

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#32 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

lol @ wall of text and M$ killed them.kuraimen
Someone doesn't know what wall a text means.:P

Granted, lots of words there but it's a good read.

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#33 R4gn4r0k  Online
Member since 2004 • 49170 Posts

[QUOTE="R4gn4r0k"]

MS ruined them by making them work on those stupid Avatars and Kinect games. Where is that Killer Instinct game they teased us with ? Pushed aside to make kinect games:(

I see a lot of people saying they started to suck after they left nintendo but Kameo, Conker: Reloaded, Viva Pinata and Nuts & Bolts were still great games. It's a shame we'll never see a sequel to kameo.

I can't say I'm as optimistic as you about what they have in store next-gen because I'm a 100% sure it will be of the same quality as Kinect Sports, anyone with talent has left the studio a while ago.

SecretPolice

Eh, I got a real soft spot for Rare so ya know, I may be too optomistic or hmm, some may say wishful thinking. :P

On the last part, I think the entire BK team remain intact and we have just gotta see a Banjo Threeie next gen, got to !!

Same here mate, I too got a real soft spot for Rare and DKC2 is one of my favourite games of all time. Rare switching camps is one of the reasons I went with a 360 this gen and not a nintendo console like I always did.

But we have to face the facts, Rare's games didn't sell all that well on 360 and their Kinect games did way better (3 million sales for Kinect Sports :|).
It's really sad to see that, but if you were MS would you let them make BK3, KI3 or Kinect Sports 3 ? (answer this soley from a financial standpoint and not your love for Rare)

A snowball's chance in hell though that either BK3 or KI3 arrives and I will run out and buy whatever system it is on.

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SecretPolice

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#34 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 45749 Posts

[QUOTE="SecretPolice"]

[QUOTE="R4gn4r0k"]

MS ruined them by making them work on those stupid Avatars and Kinect games. Where is that Killer Instinct game they teased us with ? Pushed aside to make kinect games:(

I see a lot of people saying they started to suck after they left nintendo but Kameo, Conker: Reloaded, Viva Pinata and Nuts & Bolts were still great games. It's a shame we'll never see a sequel to kameo.

I can't say I'm as optimistic as you about what they have in store next-gen because I'm a 100% sure it will be of the same quality as Kinect Sports, anyone with talent has left the studio a while ago.

R4gn4r0k

Eh, I got a real soft spot for Rare so ya know, I may be too optomistic or hmm, some may say wishful thinking. :P

On the last part, I think the entire BK team remain intact and we have just gotta see a Banjo Threeie next gen, got to !!

Same here mate, I too got a real soft spot for Rare and DKC2 is one of my favourite games of all time. Rare switching camps is one of the reasons I went with a 360 this gen and not a nintendo console like I always did.

But we have to face the facts, Rare's games didn't sell all that well on 360 and their Kinect games did way better (3 million sales for Kinect Sports :|).
It's really sad to see that, but if you were MS would you let them make BK3, KI3 or Kinect Sports 3 ? (answer this soley from a financial standpoint and not your love for Rare)

A snowball's chance in hell though that either BK3 or KI3 arrives and I will run out and buy whatever system it is on.

I hear ya and you'll get no argument from me what make the most financial sense but still, I want, I want, I want some high profile non Kinect Rare games. :)

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Tykain

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#35 Tykain
Member since 2008 • 3887 Posts
Nintendo, Rare itself and Rare's fans killed Rare, but MS delivered the finishing blow.
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delta3074

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#36 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts
MS did and their attempt to chase the Wii's pot of gold. Rare is dead and its a shell of its former self, left to slowly rot away making casual garbage in the dismal abyss that is known as Kinect. Sad really. Heil68
no tthey didn't, the people responsible for games like goldeneye and perfect dark left rare and formed free radical befire MS bought them out. "Initially, most of Free Radical Design's employees previously worked for the game developer Rare. While at Rare, they (David Doak, Steve Ellis, Karl Hilton, Graeme Norgate and Lee Ray) worked on the Nintendo 64 first-person shooters GoldenEye 007 and Perfect Dark. From late 1998 to early 1999, this team left Rare to form Free Radical Design, which was established in April 1999, their first release being TimeSplitters for the PlayStation 2 in 2000." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crytek_UK In 2002, Microsoft paid US$375 million for a 100% acquisition of the company. As a result, Rare is now a subsidiary of Microsoft Studios. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Ltd. Rare lost the majority of there most talented developers before MS got there hands on them, saying that PD0 and kameo are both critically acclaimed games,whether people think they are good or not, it also makes me laugh when people equate developing for kinect as some sort of developer hell, they get the chance to code games for new tech and push the boundaries of there developement abilitys and programming skills, something Rare as a company enjoys doing , people seem to forget that Rare has never been a huge developement team, people should stop making the baseless assumption that Rare are miserable in what they are doing and that coding games for Kinect, a very popular Kinect, is a 'slow death' for developers, the truth is kinect is popular MS knows it and is putting everything behind it, Kinect developers are possibly some of. MS most prized assets at the moment, it's quite sad that sme people, especially gamers have written them off already,Rare used to be a company called Ultimate, they coded games on the zx spectrum, the company has been coding games for 32 years and people write them of in after a few years of not seeing what they can achieve with kinect, you never know, they may reaaly suprise us with something good
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rilpas

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#37 rilpas
Member since 2012 • 8161 Posts
[QUOTE="kuraimen"]lol @ wall of text and M$ killed them.

ah so that explain why your arguments never make any sense, you don't like to read :) you just go "lol @ M$" because that doesn't actually require any thought
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Heil68

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#38 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60835 Posts
[QUOTE="Heil68"]MS did and their attempt to chase the Wii's pot of gold. Rare is dead and its a shell of its former self, left to slowly rot away making casual garbage in the dismal abyss that is known as Kinect. Sad really. delta3074
no tthey didn't

Go look at this jewel of a website http://www.rare.net/games It screams We SUCK and am casual garbage. Rare am dead CONFIRMED.
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WilliamRLBaker

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#39 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

LOL horrible article not a single true word throughout more is concentrated on after they joined MS instead of the history leading up half the development team within Rare left to make Free radical we'll forget that after that Rare games were in a slow decline with a few highlights here and there but their gamecube offerings alone were completely abysmal and shunned by most of the gaming populace the highlights of their original xbox were remakes.

get to the 360 and their games were still great but their idea of what games should be...well people had passed by their audiance had grown up they should have stuck with a more kiddy console and once you start losing money your regulated into a sector that can make money.


who killed rare?
Rare killed rare they couldn't keep the golden eye folks because of that most of their talent left they were able to make a few decent games that likely were left overs from that very same talent but once that stock of half finished games was finished they were left to their own design and we got flawed gamecube crap like starfox and the land of dinosaurs, Original xbox comes around and we get...A conker remake and thats it on the original xbox....360 comes around and we get kiddy games kameo, Banjo...While great games they are still meant for a far younger audiance and thus they didn't sell and thus Rare failed.

so yes Rare killed rare.

P.S: quite a few contradictions in the article first its Nintendos hands off attitude, then We were cut off from microsoft they didn't have hands on.

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WilliamRLBaker

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#40 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts
[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="Heil68"]MS did and their attempt to chase the Wii's pot of gold. Rare is dead and its a shell of its former self, left to slowly rot away making casual garbage in the dismal abyss that is known as Kinect. Sad really. Heil68
no tthey didn't

Go look at this jewel of a website http://www.rare.net/games It screams We SUCK and am casual garbage. Rare am dead CONFIRMED.

6 years ago you could have went to that site and you would have said much the same thing...your a fanboy your opinion isn't to be trusted.
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GD1551

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#41 GD1551
Member since 2011 • 9645 Posts

TLDR: It was microsoft and their handling of rare.

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delta3074

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#42 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts
[QUOTE="delta3074"][QUOTE="Heil68"]MS did and their attempt to chase the Wii's pot of gold. Rare is dead and its a shell of its former self, left to slowly rot away making casual garbage in the dismal abyss that is known as Kinect. Sad really. Heil68
no tthey didn't

Go look at this jewel of a website http://www.rare.net/games It screams We SUCK and am casual garbage. Rare am dead CONFIRMED.

lets just agree to disagree, but i played there games on the spectrum and thats the whole point, i started playing games on a keyboard, then they moved to joystcks, then they ,moved to gamepads gaming has always evolved, not just the games but the way we play them and like it or lump it Motion controllers are a big part of gamings future now, motion control is not just a gimmick anymore, it's revolutionising gaming, and i am not just talking about kinect, The wii, Playstation Move, i don't beleive in the phrase 'casual gamers' to me anybody who plays games is a gamer, pure and simple, besides, There last title kinect sports sold 3 million and was a commercial success, microst bought them a bigger building and they just hired craig duncan who worked on Sonic and colin mcrea rally, hardly the signs of a company who is dead.
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GameShtopper

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#43 GameShtopper
Member since 2010 • 891 Posts

[QUOTE="R4gn4r0k"]

[QUOTE="SecretPolice"]Eh, I got a real soft spot for Rare so ya know, I may be too optomistic or hmm, some may say wishful thinking. :P

On the last part, I think the entire BK team remain intact and we have just gotta see a Banjo Threeie next gen, got to !!

SecretPolice

Same here mate, I too got a real soft spot for Rare and DKC2 is one of my favourite games of all time. Rare switching camps is one of the reasons I went with a 360 this gen and not a nintendo console like I always did.

But we have to face the facts, Rare's games didn't sell all that well on 360 and their Kinect games did way better (3 million sales for Kinect Sports :|).
It's really sad to see that, but if you were MS would you let them make BK3, KI3 or Kinect Sports 3 ? (answer this soley from a financial standpoint and not your love for Rare)

A snowball's chance in hell though that either BK3 or KI3 arrives and I will run out and buy whatever system it is on.

I hear ya and you'll get no argument from me what make the most financial sense but still, I want, I want, I want some high profile non Kinect Rare games. :)

Your smiley, eccentric, flamboyant attitude won't get you what you want.

Show that you are angry at these poor decisions(on the consumer's end).

I did by selling my Xbox 360 and going strictly PS3 (with my Wii collecting dust).

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BibiMaghoo

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#44 BibiMaghoo
Member since 2009 • 4018 Posts
Over 60 hours overtime? 100 hour weeks? No wonder the games used to be good.
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Heil68

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#45 Heil68
Member since 2004 • 60835 Posts
[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="delta3074"]no tthey didn'tdelta3074
Go look at this jewel of a website http://www.rare.net/games It screams We SUCK and am casual garbage. Rare am dead CONFIRMED.

lets just agree to disagree, but i played there games on the spectrum and thats the whole point, i started playing games on a keyboard, then they moved to joystcks, then they ,moved to gamepads gaming has always evolved, not just the games but the way we play them and like it or lump it Motion controllers are a big part of gamings future now, motion control is not just a gimmick anymore, it's revolutionising gaming, and i am not just talking about kinect, The wii, Playstation Move, i don't beleive in the phrase 'casual gamers' to me anybody who plays games is a gamer, pure and simple, besides, There last title kinect sports sold 3 million and was a commercial success, microst bought them a bigger building and they just hired craig duncan who worked on Sonic and colin mcrea rally, hardly the signs of a company who is dead.

I played all their games through N64, then MS bought thema nd turned them into casual garbage. Sad.
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AcidSoldner

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#46 AcidSoldner
Member since 2007 • 7051 Posts
Interesting article. I honestly think that Rare could have flourished under Microsoft had they been given free reign to do things as they did before. I mean, they still put out some great games this gen with Perfect Dark Zero, Kameo, Nuts & Bolts, and my personal favorite, Viva Pinata. The talent is obviously there considering those 4 games came out this gen under Microsoft but if Bungie and especially FASA Studios are any indication, MS pretty much destroyed their development culture. I still have faith in Rare, because the talent is still there I and hope that MS pulls their heads out of their collective asses and learns that Rare isn't just another studio to pump out shovel-ware for their attempt at the casual market.
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GameShtopper

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#47 GameShtopper
Member since 2010 • 891 Posts

[QUOTE="Heil68"][QUOTE="delta3074"]no tthey didn'tdelta3074
Go look at this jewel of a website http://www.rare.net/games It screams We SUCK and am casual garbage. Rare am dead CONFIRMED.

lets just agree to disagree, but i played there games on the spectrum and thats the whole point, i started playing games on a keyboard, then they moved to joystcks, then they ,moved to gamepads gaming has always evolved, not just the games but the way we play them and like it or lump it Motion controllers are a big part of gamings future now, motion control is not just a gimmick anymore, it's revolutionising gaming, and i am not just talking about kinect, The wii, Playstation Move, i don't beleive in the phrase 'casual gamers' to me anybody who plays games is a gamer, pure and simple, besides, There last title kinect sports sold 3 million and was a commercial success, microst bought them a bigger building and they just hired craig duncan who worked on Sonic and colin mcrea rally, hardly the signs of a company who is dead.

I think you need to understand what we mean by differentiating hardcore from casual:

Examples of hardcore (aka "quality" titles)-


Examples of casual (aka "crap")-

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topgunmv

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#48 topgunmv
Member since 2003 • 10880 Posts

Going by the article, rare by itself was an apprentice without a master.

Without nintendo's guiding hand, they didn't know what to do.

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delta3074

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#49 delta3074
Member since 2007 • 20003 Posts
Examples of casual (aka "crap")GameShtopper
depends what your defintion of crap is really, you might not like them,i may not like them, a lot of gamers may not like them, but other people think they are pretty good and my kids like them, you expect me to think that games that put a smile on my kids faces is crap? that's an awesome game to me mate, and thats the point,kids love motion controls and they are the next generation of gamers,have youtried actually playing any of the games you put on the casual list?
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BigBoss255

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#50 BigBoss255
Member since 2010 • 3539 Posts
MS did. Kameo, Viva Pinata and Banjo were good games. Since MS went casual they've been forced to make shovelware sports games and pointless crap like avatars. Man I hate the new MS.