With the XB1 reaching 1080p parity with the PS4...

Thanks for repeating what I just said, Simon. God, you're slow.

Hahahaha, so after getting blown out on his ignorance, he resorts to "Bu bu but I shouldn't expected to find it for myself!!!" Because apparently three button presses in the settings menu is too difficult for the contemporary lemming.

Meh, I just set it recording at the start of a match and ditch it if nothing happens. Even then I don't see the point uploading footage anyway, there's enough 360 noscopes on Youtube. Now say Xbone.

Amen.

That prediction was wrong. I said back then that 900p vs 1080p would be likely, I said 30 fps vs 45 fps would be likely and both of those have panned out. That is because I know GPU hardware and I know how to make comparative assessments based on the spec sheet. I have been a hardware enthusiast for decades.

That comment was a general 'you' regarding some Xbox fans, not you as the individual and I should have made that more clear. As for parity, it will only happen when the devs do not push the hardware, anytime they do push hardware they will not be able to have parity and that will be more often than not once the cross gen games fade away.

That gap is the difference between GPU performance tiers, or the difference between hardware generations. It is a significant gap as that sort of increase allows for enhanced graphical settings to be used or higher resolutions and in some cases both. Your argument is like saying that the 290x is not much faster than the 280x and that is a blatantly absurd stance to take and demonstrably untrue. If the Geforce 980 can manage to be 50% faster than the Geforce 780 (not the Ti version just the standard 780) that will be good going and that is a next gen GPU vs a current gen GPU. It is even an architectural refresh as it is going from Kepler to Maxwell. To say that 50% is minor is just daft, no two ways about it.

Both system can only go so far when rendering at 1080p. While Forza Horizon 2 and Forza 5 are at 1080p/60fps, It uses forward rendering which is pathetic for a modern GPU to use and the same with The Order with the Ps4 and that is running at 30fps.

XNA is a .net framework for xbox 360,what is use to build the game it self is DX language buffoon.

So no working with .net is not the same as making games you blind biased lemming.

.Net framework is use in a truck load of crap not related to games.

Yeah it show maybe that is the reason why you constantly argue that MS will close damn hardware gap just by software constantly implying that the PS4 will barely get better tools which is what you do every time you imply that tool will progress more on xbox one..

Yeah because those 3 to 5 FPS arguments is what without shadow of a doubt prove that you know sh** about hardware and that you ignore a hardware based difference because you like one company,the fact that you try to agree with BX4 buffoon about GPU been different on consoles vs PC is a joke,consoles have some API gains which apply to both platforms not just one,so if the PC vs PC difference was 20 FPS that gap will stay because the xbox one may gain 5 frames over its PC GPU counter part because of a streamer like API,but that same 5 FPS gain also apply to the PS4 which is a console. So the gap remain the same.

And my link are totally valid...

It always was and proven by the wide gap shown.

Come dude i have call you Stormyjoke like 50 times don't you read my post.?hahahaa

Oh please every fu**ing time you say parity is achieve or try to mean it,it is even worse now you are not claiming any more than the difference is 3 to 5 frames,basically what you are claiming is that both will be equal which is not even close to be true Parity between both platforms is impossible unless the PS4 is hold back and every time you insinuate that parity was reach you are claiming that both are equal which is even worse than you 3 to 5 frames remarks buffoon.

Parity.

1. Equality, as in amount, status, or value.

So now you are not claiming 3 to 5 frames difference any more you are saying there will no difference at all. That one is worse than your first 3 to 5 frames argument and even more wrong.

This gap is not on paper you blind biased lemming,this isn't Nvidia vs AMd or Intel vs AMD were paper specs can lie or be totally irrelevant,this is a GPU from the same fu**ing family which is already established and is well know that there is a line on this GPU and is unbreakable.

7970>7950>7870>7850>7790>7770>7750

This ^^^^^ is a freaking fu**ing fact were ever you have the guts to admit it or not it is like that.

Now there are things that can alter values on those GPU.

1-CPU been extreme CPU limited will hold back a GPU,since the xbox one and PS4 have the same one as well this is a non contest.The xbox loss.

2- Memory bandwidth this cam cripple a GPU badly,the PS4 has 176GB's which 24GB higher than the 7870 has,it has 1 pool of GDDR5 which the standard on GPU.

The xbox one has 1 pool of DDR3 which is to slow,and a second one which is 32MB which is to small,ESRAM has been measure to about 140 to 150GB/s which is OK for its GPU problem is that it is to small and developer have to see what they put there and what not,like Forza 5 which the sky is static and dead so it seats on the DDR3 main pool.

This is as cumbersome as it get,the PS4 is very streamline on that regard,now enter HSA which the xbox one is not truly,because when the Data seats on the ESRAM the CPU can see it,that is another advantage to the PS4.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1127?vs=1126

Again this is the closes we have and i am been conservative the PS4 has 2 games with recorded instances where the frame rate of the games double that of the xbox one which in non of that test happen.

You are a buffoon and your knowledge about hardware is sad,now you don't think there is a 3 to 5 difference now you think there is no difference at all...lol

Cows are something else.

If you want to continue working here, lay off the drugs son.

Why are people arguing with grenadelauncher and Tormentos?

Fucking WOW, Simon. I'm surprised you could get that out legibly considering all the hot tears streaming out of your eyes.

Maybe you should have just saved your dignity and quietly bowed out, Simon, instead of look like a child. But then that would require you having any dignity left at this point.

Amusing considering your week long tantrum, StroppyJoke. :)

No, my stance is based on actual experience. We (at work) are currently testing a new version of one of our applications, running the latest version of .Net and Entity Framework (which I hate, but that is a different discusssion). The hardware is identical, and the current .Net version of the test environment runs at the same speed as production. However, the latest EF version runs about 40%-60% faster than the previous version. So, the app running the new API is faster than the previous version running on the same hardware.

There is more to application performance than hardware. Games are still software applications.

Commerical games are typically written in C++. What's your point?

You keep on taking about hardware alone. As I have said 100 times before, there is more to application performance than hardware.

On consoles DX on XBO Sony Api or GL.

No what you blindly try to imply is that MS will close the gap based on their tool which have bring some performance gains,totally ignoring that Sony tools were ahead of MS and the whole reason for MS desperate catch up was just that,like B2K told you MS is on a race to get tool to the Point sony had them,not to where sony will have them once MS arrive there.

Like i told you 100 times if any one will get every single drop of performance from its console is sony.

API performance tuning will increase software performance.

By your own comments - MS has a lot more room to improve than Sony. So, if and when MS produces highly efficient APIs, those improvements will close the gap (not all the way, of course) because MS, by your own comments, has more room for improvement.

Thanks for validating...

The thread that brings the facts!!

X1 and PS4 = Identical!

Only on systemwars can you learn such undisputed facts.

As I said the current Xbox API is behind the PS4 API. DX12 will close/nullify this gap and that will leave just the hardware difference. Why do you think something like MGS:GZ was 720p on Xbox One and 1080p + dynamic atmosphere on PS4. That is a lot more of a gap than just the hardware so yes, the API also had an effect.

All the estimates I have made are based on API parity between Xbox One and PS4. As it stands not only does the PS4 have the hardware advantage it also has the API advantage too but that gap has closed with each SDK release on Xbox One.

Yes to a point but that apply Both ways.

No my comment what say is that MS had bad tools which will improve,now the maximum improvement of those tools will not put the xbox one and PS4 on par,and still sony has room to tune theirs as i already showed you on a link,hell sony it self was stating that in 2 or 3 years they will exploit heavy compute which the PS4 is better modify to do than the xbox one and the gap will wide again.

lol you don't know what the hell your saying..lol

Yep DX12 will not do much for the xbox one already stated by Phill Spencer it self,the benefit is mostly easy of programing which is a pro as well.+

I just can't believe how people think there is no gap between this 2 GPU and that is juts paper difference,is like GCN doesn't exist on PC.

@tormentos: So you think that digitalfoundy piece, changes anything the article was proclaiming by not knowing the true hardware at the time?

Here's a clue. Everything they said holds true... The hardware in question means nothing. Read slowly. Let it sink in.

"We decided to put the major issues to the test by utilising equivalent PC hardware based on the same AMD architecture as the next-gen consoles. On the one hand, this has its disadvantages - the closed box environment of the consoles promises significant boosts over PC, while each machine uses its own graphics API which, presumably, introduces another performance differential. On the other hand, we know that next-gen launch games are developed initially on PC, with ports currently in progress for the new consoles. Also, this is an "In Theory" exercise, so commonality in the API at least means that the graphics tech for both test platforms is being tested on a like-for-like basis - and above all, this is a hardware experiment."

You are still forgetting that a lot of games have parity now, and upcoming games like Doom will be 1080p/60fps for both. Do all upcoming games have parity? No - but as the APIs improve, the XB1 side will improve. By your own admission, the XB1's APIs have more room to improve than PS4's, so even if the PS4's do improve, the XB1's APIs will improve even more.

If both were 100% optimized, the PS4 would still have an advantage, because it does have more raw power. However, the gap between the two will have shrunk.

You moron they used a freaking 7850 to represent the xbox one...

The 7850 is a more powerful GPU by a considerable margin than the xbox one GPU.

It has 1.76TF and 16CU and 1024 SP,it has 32 ROP is juts a more robust hardware,which is why it shows a smaller gap in their test vs the 7870 xt,that difference wasn't representative in any way,their test failed...

Your argument holds no water because it compare PC vs consoles not PC vs PC which are even fields,once again if you claim the xbox one GPU is better than its PC counter part that also apply to the PS4 blackace but what the fu** will you know about it..lol

They Failed..hahahaa Tomb Raider on PS4 is up to 30 FPS faster ^^^ here you on denial lemming..haha

Look the video on DF made test 68FPS vs 56 FPS that is a 12 FPS difference,the PS4 one 49 vs 28FPS the xbox one version went under 30 even that is lock most of the time to 30,difference 21FPS in many instances is 60 vs 30 making it 30FPS there is no way around it,predicting how something will work is not easy specially if you use hardware more powerful.

Did you see Tomb Raider on XBO run at 56 FPS.? I saw the PS4 version doing it,but the PS4 version wasn't doing 68FPS either that is because DF mess up.

They should have use a 7790 for the xbox one and downclock it to 1.18TF which was by that time what the xbox could use,and take a 7850 OC and measure them,even the full 7790 doesn't beat the 7850 let alone OC.

We decided to put the major issues to the test by utilising equivalent PC hardware based on the same AMD architecture as the next-gen consoles. On the one hand, this has its disadvantages - the closed box environment of the consoles promises significant boosts over PC

Promise that failed when BF4 was 720p on xbox one and 900p on PS4,while the 7870 can run it at 1080p,not matter what this GPU will perform a tad better than their PC counter part but not by much,and that apply to both.

Optimization will get you to a point in both cases after that is a loss case the xbox one will not improve for ever you know...

Edit.

Oh did i tell you that the maker of that article was accuse for running PR for MS.?

Why DF chose a GPU with 4 CU more and 16 ROP more to represent the xbox one,why not use the 10CU 7770 which actually had higher flop count than the XBO GPU on launch 1.28TF on the 7770 vs 1.18 on the XBO on launch.

Why go for something much more powerful instead of something very similar.?

@tormentos: Changing hardware, changes the closed environment. It REMOVES the theoretical experiment clause. That they are describing in the article?

It changes the API's the way systems handle ram... It just changes it....

Post two PICTURES of the PS4 and X1 diagrams for me. Then tell me how they are the same. Post it on Gaf... Post it on any technical site.

Tell me your findings.

EDIT: You may have people on here believing your BS. I'm not one of them.

The X1 is still decidedly weaker than the X1. I do think they should go for lesser visuals and aim for 900p to maintain framerate or go for 1080p with more simple effects. I value image quality and framerate over effects and higher end graphics (if you can't have both obviously). I wish more devs would put those two things first. Also, for reference I'm pretty sure TR:DE was worked on by different Devs for each version which makes it a flawed comparison. There are a lot of better examples out there.

No dude it is the same GPU same CPU the only real difference is that consoles have some stream line API do to not having to be compatible with 100 other cards or having any legacy that allow it to run more efficient,basically is what Mantle is on PC and what DX12 will be as well lower over head API,basically if you ran a benchmarks of those card with Mantle basically you would have no excuse about the APi any more..

The way the system handles memory is already different on xbox one because it has one BIG slow pool of ram and one small pool of fast ram,so even if both where DX the memory would be different because the PS4 uses a single pool of fast ram,by the way that is not an advantage for the xbox in any way,all the contrary is cumbersome.

Because regardless of having different way to move data around what power its games is the same as PC GPU,there theoretical top of the xbox one GPU will not be blow away just because of a different api,what happen is that on PC there were some bottle necks which were hurting the GPU which by the way are because of DX.

No matter how hard you try the xbox One GPU will not magically work like a 7870 just because you think MS has magic API's,and you look sad and desperate when you try to imply that.

In fact the xbox one is basically under performing or performing close to in like with the 7770 which would also prove my point and that of many others poster here.

This benchmark here is one of the biggest proof,look at the 7770 performance 29FPS the xbox one version is lock at 30FPS but unlike the xbox one version which is 1080p like with high quality setting or a mix,this test here show the 7770 doing 29FPS on Ultra and on 1920x1200 the 7770 is actually out performing the xbox one on tomb raider...lol

So yeah until the xbox one can prove to me that the GPU it has inside is performing better than a 7770 you have no point,the memory set up could be different but fact is the motor which is the GPU still is the same and weak.

You guys are arguing about specs while FH2 is the most gorgeous thing going right now, open world.

And you forgot many don't parity was there since day 1 if we go by games that were equal,like i told you Need for seed was cap at 30FPS even on PC which we know can run it at 160FPS or more in strong setups.

Yeah and already has improve because it was fu** how many updates has the xbox one get already.? Sniper Elite uses the latest one and has a considerable gap.

That second bold part is a joke...

The PS4 is at 80% efficiency the xbox one was at 55%,it has improved now to 70% and still has more room,even if both arrive at 100% which is the top both can go with no further improvements,there is a hardware gap that can be close,if the xbox one reach maximum efficiency and sony does the same there is no argument the PS4 will be ahead because both are on par API wise and now all that it is left if the true hardware gap which is 560gflosp which mean 16 to 20FPS depending on the game.

MS tool have more room to improve because they were further behind,just to catch up with sony's tools they need it allot of work that make for the software disparity in some form,not for the hardware one.

Which is the reason why SE3 still commanded a up to 30FPS lead.

No not at all when Tomb Raider is a DX GAME so porting it to the PS4 not matter what is more difficult that just porting it to the xbox one.

DX game translate with ease to the xbox one and we all know it.

On PS4 they have to translate and do more DIY code,because of the tools been different and that was confirmed by the crew developer already,no matter what the PS4 is more DIY work for developers because the tools are different so the team making the xbox one version should have had a easier job.

That does not mean you cannot make comparisons between similar specified GPUs on the same architecture. It just means the error bars are a bit larger due to more unknowns. However if you normalise some unknowns, like API performance and memory performance then you can get a pretty accurate idea of relative performance. Normalising API and memory performance actual confers and advantage to the Xbox One since the API is behind the PS4 API and it is not entirely accurate to say the Xbox One memory system is as effective as the PS4s overall. Still even with normalising to the Xbox Ones advantage you still end up with the PS4 being 40%-50% more powerful and that is being seen in a lot of games.

Granted two recent releases have been at parity but Diablo III is matching the top PC settings so that is defiantly not pushing the PS4 hardware but it did take a team of MS engineers to help blizzard out in reaching 1080p. Destiny also required a team of MS engineers to get it up to 1080p which shows that extracting that performance is not easy.

I have said this several times now but I do expect to see a difference in resolution along the lines of 900p vs 1080p going forward, there will be some games that achieve parity but they will be the exception rather than the rule. My prediction 18 months ago was correct and I am very confident this will be correct as well.

It doesn't really matter whether it should be easier or not. You can't evaluate a game like this when it's ported by 2 different teams to 2 different platforms. The competency of whoever is working on what will matter in direct comparisons as well as what was prioritized and what extent they were willing to go to to achieve it. There are a lot of better comparisons out there.

Yes, definitely a troll thread. You should be used to this though, as you make plenty of troll threads yourself. lol!! You shouldn't be surprised.

*************************************************************************

I have no idea. It's like arguing with Beavis and Butthead. lol!!

Who cares? I mean, seriously? I have an Xbox One right now. I love playing Destiny with my friends. I'd love a PS4, but unfortunately we've got some expenses coming up, so best to wait. I mean, really, is this what you folks have devolved to? Counting pixels because it serves a plastic piece of crap? God, that's sad.

Damnit man. It is not about counting pixels it is about being RIGHT!!!! :P

I almost never make System Wars threads, dipshit. "plenty of troll threads?" LOL!!! I didn't quote you in this thread, but you quoted me to agree with me and countless others this is a Troll thread and then you proceeded to TROLL, Lulz.

Many others also noticed this was a troll thread and posted as such as I quoted a few above. I only posted three words days ago...lol!!!

You flame and troll users non-stop though, lol, so I shouldn't be surprised that you don't offer much meaningful conversation with any gamers. You should also be used to being perpetually wrong as I see users constantly own you in multiple threads (from lack of basic gaming information to company finances, what you don't know but post about is inspiring to other morons).

You've earned quite the reputation for yourself as a non-trustworthy source and super troll. Users are always bringing up your name in multiple threads for lulz. You certainly aren't going to change minds by quoting me, straying far offtopic with an ad hominem remark, and being very inaccurate to boot! lol!!!

Like always, you are here to defend the backwards lemming troll who made this "Troll thread"...lol!!! No wonder people consider you top lemming of Gamespot. I never interfere or jump in when you are being corrected by multiple users across factions who don't like your trolling (although it would be incredibly easy to take part in the lulz you deserve), but it's clear to everyone here you make a spectacle of yourself by getting pwned seemingly every week/day you post.

Apparently you wanted a taste of SolidTy since you must be sick of getting drilled on every week by everyone else in SW, well there you go. Your wish has been granted. Add another notch to your "I've been owned" belt.

Now begone. *Sprays*

Sure i can and DF did it for a reason was Sniper Elite 3 done by 2 teams.? Oh it was just rebellion and the same gap is exhibit.

Exactly and since the xbox one version wasn't close to 60FPS it got lock at 30,never the less is a sad excuse is a DX game and it should have port endlessly better to the XBO than to the PS4 the comparison is valid.

Secret NDA hardware FTW..hahahaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm not saying no gap exists. I'm saying a port to different hardware by different teams isn't a good comparison. DF exist to analyze what's there and they are good at it. I'm saying if you wanna judge performance fairly you should have the same developer working on the port for both versions so discrepancies in talent don't exist among the teams. Again, there are tons of examples out there that still support what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that Tomb Raider or Sniper Elite aren't good comparison points because all was not equal during development. You're not even listening to what I'm saying though.

What about Metro Redux, that has a 40% higher resolution on PS4.

You wish filthy lem

Making a comparison and saying something is the same are two different debates. He thinks I'm actually talking about power differences. When I'm talking about architecture and environment.

They aren't close. The results may be similar. Getting from point A to point B to achieve those results is NOT the same. That's why DigitalFoundry and any other site that have benched both consoles in a PC environment have disclaimers in their articles.

He actually thinks I'm trying to say one is more powerful than the other.. I have never said that. All I was saying is. Using a PC to determine the power of two different closed environment consoles.... is never going to be accurate.

There are to many factors at play. Sure you can say this CPU > This CPU...or GPU>GPU. That's not the whole picture though.

You can look at both schematics of the PS4 and X1. They are not the same. The end result may be. Getting to that same result was not achieved the same way. In a PC benchmark, they are the same test bed, you're just swapping the GPU.

That's why all these sites that perform these benchmarks do not claim the results as FACTS. Tormentos does.

EDIT: He throws around PC benchmarks as gospel.

I guess the PC wins.

You are simply downplaying it because 2 different teams make each version,which could be admissible if the game in question wasn't a DX game which mean porting it is way easier than to PS4 where developer have to do more code because DX basically do most of the word for developers.

Why SE3 is not a good example.? Hell Rebellion has been nothing but Kissing MS butt for months stating left and right that the xbox one was getting close that they were worry about 6 months before the interview but not any more,that the game was running comfortably in 1080p when in reality it was lagging behind..

Prove to me that GPU on console will perform even 20% better than their PC counterpart...

I already showed you the 7770 doing Tomb Raider at 1920x1200 on Ultra at 29FPS average show me the xbox one can do that,because last i remember it wasn't ultra settings,and it wasn't 1920x1200 either.

The same with the 7770 and Diablo 3 which didn't need a patch on PC to reach 1080p on the 7770.

Oh please it is spot on the fact that you want to downplay it because you think some how a 7770 on consoles will perform like a 7970 is a damn joke,stop your butthurt denial dude,i compare GPU on a even field,you can hold tied to ESRAM and DDR3 FACT IS THOSE AREN'T ADVANTAGES FOR THE XBOX ONE.

Esram is a problem so is DDR3 which MS chose because it was cost effective not because ESRAM hold some hidden performance that no one knows about.

The fact thing is that you truly believe the xbox one will catch up,based on nothing but some magical API that MS does that no one else can,even that it has been prove that MS was behind the curve with Tile resources just like they were behind the curve in to the metal as well.

The fun part is that you want to give credit to DF for using a 7850 to represent the xbox one,but some how don't want to admit that the xbox one is basically spot of with the 7770 more than with the 7850..

Prove to me using PC benchmarks to represent consoles is accurate. You have already went on record the that schematics of the X1 and PS4 were the same. Which is complete horse shit.

Now you're trying to tell me a GPU in a console means everything...

If that's the case smart guy... Why does Uncharted and the Last of Us rival the X360 superior gpu games...You know why..... I'll let you pull something out of your ass on this one. Then I'll explain why for you.

Holes my friend HOLES.

Basic Psychological Profile of Grenade Launcher

Probably very young - estimated to be 9-14 years of age - almost certainly under 15. This age group is traditionally swayed more than most by hype and marketing. Purchase rationale for high value goods ignores the logic and emotional forethought of older consumers and instead is replaced by a desire to own the same as everyone else by way of social inclusion / fear of social rejection by his peers.

Grenade Launcher is also likely to be from an unprivileged background (which I don't hold against him) but this would make the PS4 a very expensive purchase comparative to other things he owns. He has probably worked very hard to earn this device; perhaps cleaning the neighbours cars, cutting the odd lawn, or even resorting to unsavoury "favours" for money...

It is a given that any consumer happy with his purchase would spend time playing games or discussing games relative to his console. Yet despite his purchase of a Sony machine; he maintains an almost unhealthy level of attention to Microsoft / Xbox forums and their related games which clearly demonstrates he is unfortunately suffering from buyers remorse and is exhibiting frustration as a result.

His emotional outbursts and vitriol towards anything Microsoft is a way for him to cope with this pain. He feels that if he imparts enough negativity towards an inanimate object (psychologically worrying in itself) he will ultimately convince himself the machine is worthless; but I am sad to say this technique seldom works, and he is likely to spiral into even further levels of depravity before recovery can even start to begin.

I picture the young Grenade Launcher sitting up in his bedroom alone at night looking at a blank TV saying "Playstation On", with a tear rolling down his face.

This is a sad picture, so I ask of everyone to please show some compassion.

I sure hope you copypasted that tantrum of yours.

Why would anyone want to talk to a games console?

Amusing from the same lemming who couldn't figure out how a button works.

You still don't understand the purpose of the cloud. Microsoft is not the one's who are developing the middleware to make cloud rendering possible they are just providing the physical hardware needed to make it possible. Cloud based rendering

Dx12 demoed on surface showed a huge on cpu overhead which once again is what we can expect to see on xbox, Dx12 is not on the xbox. Dx12 is a much more efficient API than dx11, it is geared toward multi-thread rendering, direct x 12 showed a 50% frame rate increase just by reducing cpu overhead.

Esram is not as bad as people think, honestly I don't understand how developers can say it's not enough when last gen with only 10mb they did so much with it. Not only does it allow for the xbox to have higher real world memory bandwidth than the PS4 it gives it an extra 6gb's of ram. If PS4 needed to store 6gb of resident textures it couldn't because you only have about 4.5gb of ram to work with, on xbox you could store 6gb's in esram without touching main ram, but you could also store textures in main ram but that would be best for things that don't require fast bandwidth.

oh yeah Sony lied about the Ps4 bandwidth being 176gb/s it's more like 120-140gb/s Sony PS4 Effective GPU Bandwidth is 140 GB/s Not 176 GB/s – Disproportionate CPU and GPU Scaling

I'm guessing talking full stop is a difficult thing for you to do, right? That's why you troll internet forums...

"We want you to have a relationship with your TV"

See, that's not something a normally functioning human being does. That's the goal MS wants with lemmings. Must be why they bought the Minecraft IP as well...

In the same way the waggle cam is something I don't need to use.

How repeating a five syllable command is "much more useful" compared to pressing a button once I'll never understand, then again lemmings have really had to twist themselves into knots to justify their Shitbox the last year and a bit.

The jealous are troublesome to others, but a torment to themselves.

~William Penn, 1693