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#1 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
i go by what i see, stats arent important imo . seeing games>looking up stats to see who the best players.... thats just me though , if you want to be in love with stats , fine go right ahead . i dont need stats to tell me who the best players are . kobe is number one that i see in this league. your irrelevent stats would probably say ginobli is more effiient than kobe - but try to compare them and you'll get laughed at ... not one gm or analyst would even put them in the same breath . kobe is that ninja . Lakersman2000


Only a fool would dismiss all of either side. Both depend on each other. The only sport where I can say that's not true is baseball. You act like I've never seen Kobe play. :|

Ginobili fell off this year. I know you don't remember, but I always included any analysis I had of Ginobili's greatness last year of the caveat "if he can repeat it," since he's kinda old for a player to just up and become a star. I was pretty sure he would, but he didn't, so he's out of discussion. That's why I said the top five for this year, as well -- Brand too has to prove he can repeat, although I'm positive he will. It's also why you didn't see Wade or LBJ in my top five last year -- need more than one year to prove something.

Talking about watching the games though, anyone who's not biased can watch and see how ridiculously overrated Kobe is. Humans always place more weight in something that points towards their viewpoint rather than something that doesn't, so when Kobe makes a couple of amazing, over-three-defender-fadeaway kind of threes and jumpshots, the question of, "Why the hell is he shooting that shot?" doesn't come up, nor does the seven others identical to it he'll miss, or the horrible decisions with the ball he makes. That one no-look pass to Mihm, though, is remembered.
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#2 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
[QUOTE="Lakersman2000"][QUOTE="7LES"] [QUOTE="Lakersman2000"]dirk is a better player and more valuable than brand . brand isnt top 5.. kobe>lebron>duncan>dirk> the rest .



Let's see:

Dirk is slightly better offensively.

Dirk is well behind defensively.

Dirk is slightly behind in rebounding.

Yeah, Brand's the better player. What about more valuable?

Well, Brand's team won 10 more games than last year, compared to Dirk's team winning two more than last year. Brand led his team to the best franchise season in terms of wins and games played in the playoffs, too. Easy call.

But Brand isn't better. Because you said so!

word you finally get it . your a little stat whore vik , stats are madly overrated .



More proof of humans reluctant to adapt to change.

The normal stats your Yahoo or ESPN has are very overrated. The work various sabermetricians have done, and stuff like quantifying how efficient someone is, or how much of a percentage an overall player has contributed to his team compared to others, is not at all. Proof of stats in the wrong hands? The media's hype of Shawn Marion -- he's good, very good, not close to great, not close to All-NBA. Proof of stats in the right hands? John Hollinger's work at ESPN.
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#3 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
[QUOTE="Lakersman2000"]dirk is a better player and more valuable than brand . brand isnt top 5.. kobe>lebron>duncan>dirk> the rest .



Let's see:

Dirk is slightly better offensively.

Dirk is well behind defensively.

Dirk is slightly behind in rebounding.

Yeah, Brand's the better player. What about more valuable?

Well, Brand's team won 10 more games than last year, compared to Dirk's team winning two more than last year. Brand led his team to the best franchise season in terms of wins and games played in the playoffs, too. Easy call.

But Brand isn't better. Because you said so!
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#4 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
im quite sure nash and wade have more turnovers - correct me if im wrong ..... jordans opinion >yours .. barkley said he was the best player in the world too. barkley>you ... sorry but ppl who just look at dry stats to compare everything are idiots . jordan is widely regarded as the greatest player ever - yet he doesnt have the greatest stats ever . stats are overrated lilttle stat whore .Lakersman2000


Huge difference: Kobe handles the ball less than Wade and Nash, especially Nash, who probably handles the ball more than anyone else in the Association. Why do you think Kobe's A/T in the playoffs was so horrendous? He tried to get everyone else involved, but he's even inefficient at that -- his assists rose a bit, but not significantly; his turnovers, on the other hand, rocketed up. Wade and Nash ish over KB8 in A/T, by faaaaar, as does every other elite guard.

If Kobe's impact is so great, why can't it be quantified in any substantial statistic? That's what you have to ask yourself...  Scoring? Not close to the most efficient. Defense? Why do his opponents shoot so well against him? Passing? Why is his A/T so horrible? What amazing inangible does he have that goes beyond anything you can quantify, hmm?

And actually, if you look at Jordan, he was ridiculously efficient. He averaged 32/8/8 while getting to the line 9.7 times per game AND shooting 54%, and still sporting a great (2.285) A/T. He averaged over 30 points for his career while shooting under 23 shots per game, with a low 2.7 TO per game. Kobe took 27.2 shots to average 35 points this year, with 3.1 turnovers per game. Jordan's ability actually translated magnificently to stats, so you need to check again. Everyone else's does, too -- why doesn't Kobe's?
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#5 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts

Are you just trying to argue semantics or something? Mavs before Dirk=terrible. Mavs with Dirk=great. He turned around the franchise. Sure he had help, but not anymore than Cassell, Mobley, Kaman, Maggette, etc provide for the Clips.MarkSmith

Except Mobley replaced the great year of Simmons -- a wash, if not Simmons' advantage -- and Kaman was already there, and Maggette missed most of the year... In other words, the only addition was Sam Cassell. :|

When Dirk scored in the clutch last night, he put himself on a whole different level.


LMAO, hyperbole owns. Small sample sizes own too.

And the difference in rebounds in neglible. A lot of your offensive rebound stat has to do with the fact that Dallas shoots a higher percentage. As as you liked to do with Yao, extrapolate both men's boards out ove rthe same number of minutes, and the difference is absolutely negligible.



Wrong. I said PERCENTAGE of team's rebounds. It's a rate stat, meaning everyone is on the same playing field. Pace is not factored in. Shooting more shots is not factored in. Dirk: 4.1% of offensive team's rebounds. Brand: 8.3%. Yao, for the record, got 8.3% of his team's offensive boards too. He actually ishes on Brand and Dirk HARDCORE when it comes to rebounding. Not remotely close. Yao is a superb rebounder.
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#6 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
and Im pretty sure the fould WAS called on Ginobli.MarkSmith


I thought it'd be called on Gino, too, but I am pretty sure the announcers said it was on Bowen. I didn't bother to check the actual box scores, just  assuming they're right, but meh.
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#7 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
Kobe Bryant: The Art of the Flop.

Game-winning shots, past three years: 8-for-33, 24%.

NBA league average in that situation: 29.2%.

More flopping:

Kobe in the clutch, 2005-06: 39.0% eFG (factors in FTs and 3s), 37.0 field goal attempts per 48 minutes. Win/Loss: 19 wins, 18 losses. Net Points: -11.

Kobe in the clutch, 2004-05: 35.2% eFG, 35.1 FGA per 48 minutes. Win/Loss: 21 wins, 17 losses. Net Points: +3.

Is it any coincidence the last time Kobe was over even the low barometer of 40% eFG was back when he had Shaq? Oh, you blame it on his team? Pierce shot 44.3% eFG in the clutch this season. Ray Allen? 51.4%. Even AI shot over 40%, at 42.1% eFG. In other words, every star in the universe shot better. Kobe is a clutch flop.

Kobe also shot 41% in 4th quarters this year. Yet, of course, he led the NBA in field goal attempts in the 4th.
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#8 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
lol . your player rankings are almost worst than your predictions .key word almost . lol , if you were a gm you'd run a franchise to the ground worst than isiah ..... even jordan said kobe was by far the best player in league . quite frankly , ill take the goats opinion over anyone here. Lakersman2000


That's great. You can take subjective opinions of other players / analysts. Stats don't lie, though. Hell, you can even watch the games -- who commits more turnovers per possession than Kobe out of those who's considered an elite player? Allen Iverson? Yeah, and that's why he's maybe the most overrated player in the NBA. Kobe's a turnover machine and a shot machine, and he'll never learn.

Funny how one game means you're the best player. Tell me, how many people were saying he was the best player last year? None? Yeah, thought so. Didn't he lead the team to like two wins out of 21 games, only slightly better than T-Mac's infamous losing streak? Didn't he lead his team out of the playoffs, unable to win one game out of three? Oddly enough, JUST LIKE T-MAC IN 01!
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#9 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts
[QUOTE="7LES"] [QUOTE="MarkSmith"]

Until Brand goes into San Antonio and does what Dirk did, I think of him as a young Dirk Nowitzki (in terms of his development, not actual age), but a better defender.

MarkSmith



Until Dirk revives an absolutely dead franchise and plays good defense, he'll not be close to Brand. Plus Brand plays more minutes.

I bet Dik doesn't come close to what Brand did to Phoenix this series.

umm, did you not watch the Mavericks before Dirk got here? We wrote the book on dead. 90's Mavericks=worst team ever over the span of 10 years.

And I agree Dirk wont score 31 ppg this series, but its not because hes not capable, but because Avery Johnson's smarter than Dunleavy and wont allow Dallas to play stupid and just try to outrun Phoenix. I wouldnt be surprised at all if Dirk got more points per shot than Brand this series.



What rocks are you smoking? Mavs went 40-42 in 99-00. Dirk scored 17 per. 53 wins the next season. Dirk is still arguably not the best player; Finley was just as good and played many more minutes. And let's not act like a man named Steve Nash wasn't a huge part -- his tremendous one-season improvement from 99-00 to 00-01 is a large reason why they won 50+ games.

Clips didn't try to outrun the Suns. They pounded the ball in all the time, using Livingston, Mobley, Brand, and Kaman in the post, even Ross sometimes. Suns make the pace rise, though. Even last year's Spurs, the best defensive team in the L last year, had to run with them.

Points per shot is an inefficient measure, overvaluing 3s. eFG% is much better, or TS% (although that too has some problems). Brand only shot 21.2 times a game anyway, or in other words what Kobe gets in a quarter. Only shot 3 more times relative to the regular season, yet scored seven more points. Very impressive.

BTW, I never said Brand was more efficient than Dirk. He's nearly as good as Dirk offensively, though (28.2 PER at PF, 30.8 PER at C; Dirk was 30.3 at PF, and 28.7 at C), and way better defensively. Brand only allowed 46.8% eFG vs PF, and we know the WCF is packed with elite PFs. Dirk, in turn, allowed nearly 50% effectiveness. And at stopping Cs, Brand was a god -- only 41% allowed. Dirk was much worse, allowing 56.8%. Brand draws more fouls, is a better passer, is a slightly better rebounder, especially offensively (double Dirk's offensive rebound percentage), and a ridiculously better blocker and therefore inside presence. Brand was a large reason why the Clips were No. 1 in blocks.
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#10 7LES
Member since 2005 • 1431 Posts

Until Brand goes into San Antonio and does what Dirk did, I think of him as a young Dirk Nowitzki (in terms of his development, not actual age), but a better defender.

MarkSmith


Until Dirk revives an absolutely dead franchise and plays good defense, he'll not be close to Brand. Plus Brand plays more minutes.

I bet Dik doesn't come close to what Brand did to Phoenix this series.