[QUOTE="Buddha_basic"][QUOTE="trix5817"]

[QUOTE="septemberluc"][QUOTE="sonicare"]Because he's going to need to tax a lot of people to support a lot of the programs he's proposing. Money just doesnt magically appear.trix5817

That's the least of our problems.....

Just look at Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid and other the other useless welfare programs of the Welfare State.

Social security worthless? Do you not know anyone that is (or was) banking on that to be able to survive retirement?

That's the problem right there. People need to stop relying on Big Brother from cradle to the grave. I'm sorry, I can handle my own retirement finances. I don't want the government to take my money that I could manage, much, much better myself.

I agree with you. It was a bad concept, but it was put in place and people ARE banking on them, and thats the reality.

[QUOTE="septemberluc"][QUOTE="sonicare"]Because he's going to need to tax a lot of people to support a lot of the programs he's proposing. Money just doesnt magically appear.trix5817

That's the least of our problems.....

Just look at Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid and other the other useless welfare programs of the Welfare State.

Social security worthless? Do you not know anyone that is (or was) banking on that to be able to survive retirement?

[QUOTE="Buddha_basic"]

Raising minimum wage is a must in this country as a result of the decreased value of the dollar. The worst decrease in the dollar has yet to be felt, but will be as a result of the 850 billion dollar bail-out plan. NOT a raise in minimum wage.

And i agree Great Society is a good example. But have the companies really done their job under teh current administration? Mccain wants to add more choices for healthcare, without adressing high premiums, or pre existing conditions. Peopel are not realizign that the healthcare providers are sitting on a stockpile of literally billions of dollars, and STILL raise premiums. (my own plan was raised 200 dollars just this month.)

battlefront23

I agree the bail out was an epic phail. We (Americans) should almost be... punished for our stupidity with our money and the greediness of the banks in the U.S. Raising minimum wage sounds good for everyone and I would agree with it if the gov't backed off with the crazy spending under the current administration. I think there are two really bad forms of gov't; Bush's and Obama's. We need to have classes in the high schools, colleges, hell even in secondary schools, to teach kids how to use and save money. But anyway, back to your point about healthcare... I think having national healthcare is worse then our current system, so I don't really know how we could fix it.

Well the people werent really to blame. When you apply for a loan, youre asking the bank if you qualify. What happened is banks that were selling property at extremley low interest rates (remember, monetary policy has you RIASE interest rates to combat inflation), they were giving it to anyone that could write their name in english, knowing they probably couldnt pay the mortgage, but once it was signed, they sold it to other banks.

So whne the **** hit the fan, and families couldnt pay the mortgage, the banks that were loaning it out basically had a mortgage that was worthless.

[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="septemberluc"]

Don't forget, McCain eventually hijacked the "Change" motto.-Sun_Tzu-

You avoided the question. I hear McCain speak of his change. I don't know what the hell Obama wants besides more taxes, national healthcare, and programs that do nothing but waste money.

How is making healthcare more affordable a waste of money?

More affordable is fine. That's the companies job, not the gov't. That's why it'll be a waste; that's all that the gov't has proven to us. They rarely efficiently spend money.

What have the companies proven to us? That they are good at filing for bankruptcy? I trust the government which is out for the benefit of the people over the companies that are just out to make a buck.

Exactly. The government is under judicial review in its practices. Private companies..not so much.

[QUOTE="Buddha_basic"]

What about lowering premiums on healthcare? Requireing healthcare providers to cover pre existing conditions?

And how about a tax credit for thsoe wanting to go to college?

Raising minimum wage?

Renewing the bush tax cuts isnt a big deal. OBama wants to rais taxes on people who make over 250k a year yes, but lower taxes on those making less than 200k a year. While i admit he leaves out whether or not those tax cuts will be higher or lower than bushs, cant we agree that the current administration is doing a horrible job, and the bush tax cuts were primarily for the wealthy?

battlefront23

It sounds good on paper but the gov't rarely does the job well. (Lyndon B Johson's Great Society anyone?)

Raising minimum wage would decrease the value of the dollar, wouldn't it?

It's a big deal to me because I don't want my family to spend more tax money on things that don't work. Bush is doing bad, yes, but that's because his borrow method fails, not his tax program.

Raising minimum wage is a must in this country as a result of the decreased value of the dollar. The worst decrease in the dollar has yet to be felt, but will be as a result of the 850 billion dollar bail-out plan. NOT a raise in minimum wage.

And i agree Great Society is a good example. But have the companies really done their job under teh current administration? Mccain wants to add more choices for healthcare, without adressing high premiums, or pre existing conditions. Peopel are not realizign that the healthcare providers are sitting on a stockpile of literally billions of dollars, and STILL raise premiums. (my own plan was raised 200 dollars just this month.)

Oh and did i mention McCain wants to take money from medicair/medicaid to help pay for the tax relief (5 grand) hes giving to families to help pay for their health benifits...taht he is taxing. And the medicar and medicaid programs are part of the great society program, and help millions of peopel cover illnesses.

[QUOTE="Rikusaki"]

Hope for Middle cl@ss families.

Change in Washington.

:D

battlefront23

Middle class families don't already have hope? We don't need hope... we need to be taxed less. And you know what Obama won't do? Renew the Bush tax cuts, which will mean my middle class family will have to pay more money to the gov't for them to waste.

What change in Washington? It's already going so liberal it's almost scaring me. Screw Obama's slogan of "change" in Washington. Such a liar...

What about lowering premiums on healthcare? Requireing healthcare providers to cover pre existing conditions?

And how about a tax credit for thsoe wanting to go to college?

Raising minimum wage?

Renewing the bush tax cuts isnt a big deal. OBama wants to rais taxes on people who make over 250k a year yes, but lower taxes on those making less than 200k a year. While i admit he leaves out whether or not those tax cuts will be higher or lower than bushs, cant we agree that the current administration is doing a horrible job, and the bush tax cuts were primarily for the wealthy?

[QUOTE="DucksBrains"]Because like most politicians Obama is a liar, as the philosophy goes: To be successful in politics promise everything, deliver nothing.battlefront23

Exactly. Believe the politician who doesn't speak of drastic change.

When the other politician is speaking of no change? Please...

to Ducksbrains:

Where to you base this argument on? Whats he lieing about and how?

Campaigning is a slimy business. I think we can all agree on that. Every politician is going to say different things in different states, in an effort to try and win the popular vote.

I'm in the middle of four books right now, all of them good. I'm rereading Ender's Game (in anticipation of the new one coming out this month), The Illuminatus! Trilogy (this is one of the most fun books I've ever read!), Night Watch (you should check out the movie, it's great!), and Assassination Vacation. I have way too many books on my to-read list, and it doesn't help that I always go back and reread books over and over again. Next on my list is Watchmen, if I can ever get it back from my boyfriend.michellez

Night Watch I started reading that but didnt finish it cause i got kinda busy. I def. plan on picking it back up. I didnt get far though. :(

[QUOTE="septemberluc"][QUOTE="Coffee_Blade"][QUOTE="septemberluc"][QUOTE="halfirishhomer"]

Saddam Hussein murdered 400,000 of his own people, do you really expect me to believe that they would rather have him in power than have a democracy? And the reason was to prevent Saddam from using WMD's against Israel, which he's been trying to do since the 80's, and to stop the genocide he was committing against his own people.

Coffee_Blade

But genocide and destruction of Israel is perfectly fine. :roll:

Well when weapons inspectors couldn't do their job and Hussien kept shouting threats what would you do. Strike before they can bomb a civil country off the map or go in forcefully to make sure it won't happen. You can't just always sit on the sidelines. Diplomacy doesn't always work when the people in power are completely mad. While I agree that going their was not in our best interest in the short run, a democratically ran country in the middle east is definitely in our favor. Even if it wasn't our orginal intention

Right, a democracy would be in the best interests of this country, and was probably a fundemental reason for entering iraq (even if it wasnt told to the american people up front). And now its sort of what the administration is holding on to, to salvage what little light is left in this blunder (if any).

It would probably help stabalize the region, which would be good for Isreal, and our oil assets, but is it even possible?

Democracy is a western idea, and goes against everything Islam is about. Yes the Iraqis did vote, but how was that possible? Deploying thousands of troops, forcing this issue. In the long run, democracy is not an achievable goal in a country like Iraq, unless you want to stay there for a couple decades.

[QUOTE="Buddha_basic"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="halfirishhomer"][QUOTE="Buddha_basic"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="shoeman12"]because he was lying in the first place and now that people realize it he's flip flopping.halfirishhomer

You know you'd be right if that was true but it's not. There has been a flip flopper this election though. He's voted for that 700 billion bailout and wants to buy up all the bad mortgages then turns around and cries how his opponent is a socialist. In fact you even have a picture of him in your sig.

And yea thats antoehr thing. The republican party is yelling "socialist" when thats clearly not even true. Its just a scare tactic and it goes back to mccarthyism back in the 50's.

Really because redistribution of wealth is a socialist tenet, so how is Obama not a socialist?

Wow I don't even know where to begin. Wealth is always being redistributed. How do you think the roads in your neighborhood are built? How do you think policemen and firemen get payed? If you don't know, it's through taxes, and if you don't understand how those are examples redistribution of wealth then I'll be more than happy to explain.

The thing that Obama is trying to accomplish through his tax plan is to give struggling Americans a better opportunity. Now you can cry and moan how that's one of the tenets of socialism all you want, but that's one of the tenets that this country was built on. Not economic equality, but equal economic opportunity.

McCain once said that the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy were a bad idea and were unfair to America's middle class, and he was right. All the Bush tax cuts did was make the rich richer at the expense of making the poor poorer, and now John McCain wants to make those tax cuts permanent.

[QUOTE="septemberluc"][QUOTE="halfirishhomer"]

Saddam Hussein murdered 400,000 of his own people, do you really expect me to believe that they would rather have him in power than have a democracy? And the reason was to prevent Saddam from using WMD's against Israel, which he's been trying to do since the 80's, and to stop the genocide he was committing against his own people.

halfirishhomer

We were talking about invading Iraq for months, are you really stupid enough to believe that he wouldn't hide them if he did have them? But if you still believe he didn't have them, then what do you have to say about the iraqi general who witnessed them moving the weapons into Iran?

And during those talks Colin Powell told the administration he knew exactly where WMDs were in Iraq, and how much. Yet we had inspectors over tehre for months searching and not finding any trace of weapons.

Yeah I'm sure an evil dictator would just let the weapons sit around until we got there to take them, even though he had months to move them before we invaded.

And like i said, months before we invaded, we had inspectors in Iraq, activley looking for these WMDs.