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Hubadubalubahu

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#1 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

I find the fact that this debate persists quite depressing. I will post this again seeing as how no one addressed anything in it and continue to beat a dead horse with fallacious arguments.

Consider the assumption that the "natural" end of marriage (or sex in general) is procreation, and that therefore non-procreative gay couples cannot reasonably be allowed to marry.

First, if we were to take this premise seriously, we would have to radically change marriage laws. No infertile couples would be allowed to marry - this would include both younger people who are infertile due to health issues as well as older people who are infertile due to age. Obviously very few would agree to this.

It is curious that the criticisms heaped upon gays who want to marry is not also directed upon elderly people who want to marry, or young infertile couples, indicating that the problem cannot possibly stem from people's disapproval of a couple that won't be having children.

If we were to enforce the idea that marriage exists for the sake of having and raising children, wouldn't we prohibit couples from remaining childless voluntarily? Even if we didn't outlaw both contraception and abortion, we would have to take steps to ensure that all married couples not be childless: if they won't produce their own kids, they will have to adopt some of the many orphaned and abandon children currently without stable homes and families. Since we don't see anyone arguing for such outrageous measures, we must conclude that opponents of same-sex marriage don't take that principle as seriously as they seem; and because such measures are so outrageous, we have good reason not to take it seriously either.

Second, Gay couples are not universally childless. Some gay male couples have children because they have made arrangements with someone else to act as a surrogate mother. Some lesbian couples have children because they used artificial insemination. Finally, some gay couples have children because they have adopted.

Whatever the reason, more and more gay couples are not childless - and if marriage, whether in "nature" or as a legal institution, exists to promote and protect both procreation and the raising of children, then why can't it do so for gay couples as well as straight couples?

Since when do people tailor their activities based solely or even primarily upon what they imagine the biological ends to be? Who gets married solely to have children and not to pursue a meaningful and intimate relationship with someone they love? Who eats food solely in order to ingest nutrition and not to enjoy the social and psychological experiences that accompany a good meal?

Finally, we have the Philokalia/Mindstorm argument that the existence of gay marriages would constitute a desecration of a sacred institution created by God for the purpose procreation. This might be true if churches that regarded homosexuality as an abomination were forced to perform and recognize same-sex marriages, but no one is suggesting this occur.

Civil marriages, established and regulated by secular laws in a society filled with a diversity of views, ethnicity, upbringings, and religious beliefs, cannot be restricted by how some religions view marriage from within the theological boundaries of their faith. Marriage between members of different religions cannot be legally forbidden simply because some churches consider it sacrilege. Marriage between members of different races cannot be legally forbidden simply because some groups regard miscegenation as contrary to God's will. So why should marriage between members of the same sex be any different?

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Hubadubalubahu

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#2 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

[QUOTE="Hubadubalubahu"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

You should have a doctor check yours out.

THE_DRUGGIE

Meh, nothing a couple bottles of aloe vera wont take care of.

Not sure how that helps reshape your willy into non-mitt shape.

Ah, that went right overhead. There is plenty of room in my oven mitts; just need a rubber band for a snug fit. Wouldn't want things getting toasty now.

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Hubadubalubahu

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#3 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

[QUOTE="Hubadubalubahu"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

Do they make ove gloves for my nethers?

THE_DRUGGIE

I'd just put an oven mitt on it.

You should have a doctor check yours out.

Meh, nothing a couple bottles of aloe vera wont take care of.

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Hubadubalubahu

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#4 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

[QUOTE="Hubadubalubahu"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

If you fiddle with the power cord and the toast comes out buttered even though you put no butter in, does that mean I just did something naughty with my toaster?

THE_DRUGGIE

You just got to third base. Congratulations man!

Do they make ove gloves for my nethers?

I'd just put an oven mitt on it.

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Hubadubalubahu

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#5 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

[QUOTE="Hubadubalubahu"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

What if a homosexual man wants to marry a male toaster?

THE_DRUGGIE

Then saying "I'm going to butter your bread" will take on a far more literal meaning.

If you fiddle with the power cord and the toast comes out buttered even though you put no butter in, does that mean I just did something naughty with my toaster?

You just got to third base. Congratulations man!

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#6 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

[QUOTE="Hubadubalubahu"]

Every point to be made has been made from each side. Clearly neither side is listening to the other so why don't we all just let these gay marriage topics die. Unless someone has a point that hasn't been addressed.

THE_DRUGGIE

What if a homosexual man wants to marry a male toaster?

Then saying "I'm gonna butter your bread" will take on a far more literal meaning.

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#7 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

Every point to be made has been made from each side. Clearly neither side is listening to the other so why don't we all just let these gay marriage topics die. Unless someone has a point that hasn't been addressed.

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#8 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

I have seen many people making excellent points in this thread as to why same sex marriage should be allowed. However seeing how many posts there are in this discussion, and that the discussion continues to go on, I am going to attempt to cover some of the more relevant arguments made for same sex marriage in one post.

Consider the assumption that the "natural" end of marriage (or sex in general) is procreation, and that therefore non-procreative gay couples cannot reasonably be allowed to marry.

First, if we were to take this premise seriously, we would have to radically change marriage laws. No infertile couples would be allowed to marry - this would include both younger people who are infertile due to health issues as well as older people who are infertile due to age. Obviously very few would agree to this.

It is curious that the criticisms heaped upon gays who want to marry is not also directed upon elderly people who want to marry, or young infertile couples, indicating that the problem cannot possibly stem from people's disapproval of a couple that won't be having children.

If we were to enforce the idea that marriage exists for the sake of having and raising children, wouldn't we prohibit couples from remaining childless voluntarily? Even if we didn't outlaw both contraception and abortion, we would have to take steps to ensure that all married couples not be childless: if they won't produce their own kids, they will have to adopt some of the many orphaned and abandon children currently without stable homes and families. Since we don't see anyone arguing for such outrageous measures, we must conclude that opponents of same-sex marriage don't take that principle as seriously as they seem; and because such measures are so outrageous, we have good reason not to take it seriously either.

Second, Gay couples are not universally childless. Some gay male couples have children because they have made arrangements with someone else to act as a surrogate mother. Some lesbian couples have children because they used artificial insemination. Finally, some gay couples have children because they have adopted.

Whatever the reason, more and more gay couples are not childless - and if marriage, whether in "nature" or as a legal institution, exists to promote and protect both procreation and the raising of children, then why can't it do so for gay couples as well as straight couples?

Since when do people tailor their activities based solely or even primarily upon what they imagine the biological ends to be? Who gets married solely to have children and not to pursue a meaningful and intimate relationship with someone they love? Who eats food solely in order to ingest nutrition and not to enjoy the social and psychological experiences that accompany a good meal?

Finally, we have the Philokalia/Mindstorm argument that the existence of gay marriages would constitute a desecration of a sacred institution created by God for the purpose procreation. This might be true if churches that regarded homosexuality as an abomination were forced to perform and recognize same-sex marriages, but no one is suggesting this occur.

Civil marriages, established and regulated by secular laws in a society filled with a diversity of views, ethnicity, upbringings, and religious beliefs, cannot be restricted by how some religions view marriage from within the theological boundaries of their faith. Marriage between members of different religions cannot be legally forbidden simply because some churches consider it sacrilege. Marriage between members of different races cannot be legally forbidden simply because some groups regard miscegenation as contrary to God's will. So why should marriage between members of the same sex be any different?

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Hubadubalubahu

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#9 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] You always do this sh!t. Someone puts forward an argument and you just fold your arms and shout, "No! Nuh uh! That's your opinion!" Put your own argument forward or leave. I get it that you disagree. If you want to discuss this, try to change my mind instead of just shaking your head at everything.fidosim

You didnt present any sound argument.

I hope you're not referring to your "Because it simply is" type of replies?

Yes I fvcking did. My argument is that marriage is a compact surrounding the production and raising of children. Christ.

In my humble opinion, overpopulation will be a problem before the obverse.

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#10 Hubadubalubahu
Member since 2005 • 1081 Posts

This cesspool imitating a thread reeks of bullsh*t.