What a silly argument going back and forth here. Yes, atheism and agnosticism are basically the same thing. Just because an agnostic won't definitively say the magic words "There is no God", doesn't mean they hold any more belief than an atheist would in their heart that there is a chance for a God to exist. Why else do you think they don't believe in the first place? They'll believe it when they see it, just like an atheist would. The term "atheism" means - a lack of theism, or, being without theism. An agnostic is without theism, aren't they? I'd say so. An agnostic sits on the fence waiting for evidence to come along. An atheist takes a more assertive approach. When an athiest says, "There is no God", they're simply referring to, or openly rejecting, the Gods of worldly religions that they've been exposed to. But they're just like the agnostics, in that they'll believe in any God that reveals itself to them. Who wouldn't. You'd have to be an idiot not to. It's really only a diffference in personality types. Basically, agnosticism is weak atheism.The_Versatile
That's exactly what I was trying to say for 3 pages.
You either believe it's true, or don't. You can say "I don't know for sure if it's true or not" - you still don't believe it's true.
Factually, it can never be known for sure. People who claim they know that God exists do not believe in God - it is contradictory to believe in the existence of something you already KNOW exists. I don't believe the speeding truck that comes towards me exists; I KNOW it does.
You can acknowledge that something is unprovable even if you know for sure in your mind that it exists or doesn't exist. This agnostic stance on theism is unnecessary.
BumFluff122
....what? I think you misread what I typed. Nowhere in the post you quoted was there a contradiction. I also think you are misreading what the term agnostic means. No, I was just talking. Read the last part.
[QUOTE="JabbaDaHutt30"]atheism doesn't necessarily have to translate in one definite "No!" to the existence of Gods.BumFluff122
That is the definition of atheism though. You even posted your own definitions saying exactly the same thing. Atheism is classified as a disbelief in God meaning you don't believe there is a God. Agnosticism means you aren't sure if there is or isn't a God because you are aware that iit can't be proven so you don't sway one way or the other (Of course there are 5 different versions of Agnosticism as given by Dawkins, 5 being what you refer to as an Agnostic Theist). It seems like neither of us is going to change the other persons mind one way or the other and, as you say, we are merely repeating ourselves while arguing over semantics. Disbelief can also translate into "a lack of belief" or "Godlessness". You can identify the very meaning of the word by locking at the big 'A'. If you are not sure there is a God, ergo, you don't know if He exists or not, then that implies that you have a lack of faith.
I would like to take this occasion to comment on what is known as "agnostic theism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) - the belief that says that no one can know for sure if gods exist, but still believe.
My stance is that no religious person can know that gods exist (except those that claim to have had visions of miracles) and therefore believe. I regard this as being theistic because most people simply don't claim to know for sure that God exists, which makes the whole "agnostic" part obsolete.
BumFluff122
I've talked to many MANY religious people that claim there is not a doubt in their minds that God exists. I've also talked to many athiests without a doubt in their mind that God is just a fairytale. Factually, it can never be known for sure. People who claim they know that God exists do not believe in God - it is contradictory to believe in the existence of something you already KNOW exists. I don't believe the speeding truck that comes towards me exists; I KNOW it does.
You can acknowledge that something is unprovable even if you know for sure in your mind that it exists or doesn't exist. This agnostic stance on theism is unnecessary.
atheism Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings, yes.
If by disbelief, you mean "a lack of belief" of course.
Here's another definition:
noun1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God[ant:theism]2.a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
BumFluff122
Agnostics don't have a disbelief in God. Agnostics state that God can't be proven or disproven. OF course there are a total fo 5 different versions of agnoticism. 1 I think being the farthest from a belief in God while 5 is the closest to belief in God. They have a lack of belief in God. Babies have a lack of belief in God. Animals have a lack of belief in God. They are without religion, therefore they are atheists. I don't want to become obnoxious but I insist on repeating myself: atheism doesn't necessarily have to translate in one definite "No!" to the existence of Gods.
I would like to take this occasion to comment on what is known as "agnostic theism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) - the belief that says that no one can know for sure if gods exist, but still believe.
My stance is that no religious person can know that gods exist (except those that claim to have had visions of miracles) and therefore believe. I regard this as being theistic because most people simply don't claim to know for sure that God exists, which makes the whole "agnostic" part obsolete.
[QUOTE="JabbaDaHutt30"][QUOTE="-eddy-"] Well, there you have it(?) There are people who say "no!" and "l don't know"; atheism and agnosticism.Teenaged
It's definitely a differend sort of belief - but it is still, by definition, a lack of religion.No, you over simplify things. I think the post you quoted was quite clear. Maybe I am. That is what the word "atheism" means though.
[QUOTE="-eddy-"][QUOTE="JabbaDaHutt30"][QUOTE="-eddy-"] religion threads tend to have that :q http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_atheism Your friend. Well, there you have it(?) There are people who say "no!" and "l don't know"; atheism and agnosticism. It's definitely a differend sort of belief - but it is still, by definition, a lack of religion.
Depends on your definition of atheism, which can simply refer to lack of belief in God.
Definition of Atheism
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God. 2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Definition of Agnosticism
1.a religious orientation of doubt; a denial of ultimate knowledge of the existence of God; "agnosticism holds that you can neither prove nor disprove God's existence"2.the disbelief in any claims of ultimate knowledge atheism Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings, yes.
If by disbelief, you mean "a lack of belief" of course.
Here's another definition:
noun1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God[ant:theism]2.a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
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