Ofcourse no one is perfect. But when you say someone made a mistake, you have to be specific in where they made a mistake and you have to be qualified to point out that mistake. Otherwise vague statements like "no one has absolute authority" dont mean anything. Fine, to your "misvak can be gently tapped on the woman to discipline her", to that also - those scholars also dont have absolute authority. How does it feel now?

No one has absolute authority, not even you. For you to thus say that the scholars were all wrong for 65:4 and the translators were wrong for 4:34, do you have absolute authority? No. Look at you. You're some anonymous person on the internet (like all of us) who started learning arabic a year ago and according to his own admissions:

- knows less than the scholars
- has contradicted himself: ("So yes I've probably contradicted myself somewhere in this topic." - the question is where and how? You should look into that.)

And who are these scholars and translators? They are well known scholars and figures representing knowledge of Islam - enough said. If they werent, we wouldnt be here talking about them and quoting them. So you're not even 5% qualified to reject their work or say they're all wrong. At the least you need another scholar to say that.

- I didn't ditch them, I recognize their tafsirs as valuable (though not unbiased), however, they are not absolute in authority. Not a single tafsir has authority over another.

You said they were biased and crap. That means you ditched them.

- But as for now, I have learned things from you and (hopefully) vice versa. I'm done here.

You've said you're done here so you dont need to reply to my next message if you dont want to.

- 1. This is why the translation doesn't make sense: women who don't menstruate regularly should just wait three months instead of three mentstrual cycles.

Sorry you're not qualified to reject or criticize multiple well-known translators of the Quran.

- 2. Thank you for completely missing the point. I never said that holding hands is a form of physical abuse. When I meant separate, I meant as in not interracting little or none of the time. If the couple holds hands and smiles, etc. that's a sign that they are in harmony with each other. Of course that isn't always true, either.

No, you missed the point by ditching tafsirs of 11 Islamic scholars and recognized translations of the Quran.

- So yes I've probably contradicted myself somewhere in this topic.

Most certainly, in multiple places.

- But as for now, I have learned things from you and (hopefully) vice versa. I'm done here.

Cognitive dissonance is what you're going through. You have a modern outlook on life, something that doesnt exist in the Quran. When you come across these contradictions in Islam and your own thought, the easier thing for you to do is to justify them in some way or try to make sense out of it. The harder thing is to just say: Ah, f_ this, this is all crap. I'm leaving Islam and I'm my own person from now on. Like what Gambler_3 did.

Good luck in your search for separating the truths, falsehoods and the unknowns.

- I think there is something wrong here. Why would a 7-year-old (for instance) have to wait three months?

There's usually something wrong with the whole Quran. The first part of the verse says:

- Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months (65:4)

According to your logic, those who dont have any menses, why should they have to wait 3 months too? Did you not read the verse fully? Please answer that question. The answer is that Quran is not a book from God. Its a book from an arab who lived 1400 years ago and pretended to be a prophet so he could have power and sex with as many women as possible. According to atleast one Bukhari hadith he used to have sex with 9 of his wives in the same night

-4:34-the wife separates with her husband, i.e. interracting (and things talking, holding hands, etc.) little or none of the time with her husband. 

Holding hands doesnt mean beating her. The tonnes of hadith I gave you all showed that Muhammad beat his wives himself. In addition, translators translated the verse correctly (beat her, scourge her). Even your favourite Yusuf Ali said "beat her". All this "tapping her lightly with Misvak/toothbrush" stuff is fake and was invented by scholars themselves and is not mentioned in the Quran. "Tapping her lightly with a toothbrush or misvak?" Sounds like spanking or a line in a comedy standup, dont you think?

Is this wife beating order surprising? No. Once again Muhammad beat his wives. See the hadiths above that you ignored.

Everyone can see the obvious truth here, Ghokle, except you because you're still a Muslim. Gambler_3 has left Islam as you know. I hope you will too although its unlikely because of your personality. People who make attempts to hide the truth or justify something can do that to themselves to any extent therefore preventing apostasy from Islam. Most people are like that because its very hard to change faiths which is why, almost no one is able to do it.

Those who believe first in commonsense and what is right are the only ones able to leave Islam.

Hello Ghokle

- The verb there is DaRaBa (daad-raa-baa) which means "to beat". The verb also means to set-apart, to separate, to go forth, to beat a drum, and many other meanings. In this verse it is "idribuhunna" which means "beat them (f pl.)".

Yes you got it. Thats what the verse says. This is why all famous translators have translated the verse to mean "beat them". You also have to look at other places where the word is used and as you say, the context has to be considered:

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Beat_your_wives_or_%22separate_from_them%22%3F (same link as given by Sanitatirum already)

In addition, as Sani said, 4:35 already talks about "seperate from them". Sure Quran repeats itself but you have to look at verses before and after. If I said something in spanish and two people translated it to "1. It is raining and water is falling down" and "2. It is raining and it is also raining", then #2 makes more sense. And then when you have multiple translators agreeing with each other, then the meaning is confirmed. These translators knew arabic, trust me.

- Many scholars agree that "wife-beating" should only be done with a miswak (thumb-length, tree branch toothbrush) so that it's more of a sign of impatience rather than a full-out physical punishment. It's sort of like me tapping someone's arm with an object in such a way to deliver a message signifying impatience. Also, considering that (mindless) anger is not allowed in Islam, it couldn't possibly hurt at all.

So you ignore 11 Islamic scholars who explained 65:4 and say they are all wrong but you listen to those who say its to beat a wife with a misvak. You're picking and choosing again. Tapping a wife with misvak? What woman in her right mind today in 2009 would be OK with her husband "tapping" her lightly with miswak? Islam is a religion for all times.

- About Aisha being pushed by Muhammad, he used to have an anger problem in his life due to stress (from being a prophet and all). So I'm guessing he did it out of frustration. This makes sense because this marriage happened during the early days of Islam. Eventually he became a very calm person and got rid of his anger problem.

Interesting that you think Muhammad had an anger problem. I would ask you for hadith and evidence of that but you will never give me any. If you did I would consider myself lucky. Muhammad was a false prophet. When he told people he was getting messages from God, he was simply lying.

Supporting hadith that directly mention wife beating (and beating up of women in general):

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Muhammad struck Aisha:

Abu Bakr struck Aisha

Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) We set out with Allahs Apostle on one of his journeys till we reached Al-Baida' or Dhatul-Jaish, a necklace of mine was broken (and lost). Allah's Apostle stayed there to search for it, and so did the people along with him. There was no water at that place, so the people went to Abu- Bakr As-Siddiq and said, "Don't you see what 'Aisha has done? She has made Allah's Apostle and the people stay where there is no water and they have no water with them." Abu Bakr came while Allah's Apostle was sleeping with his head on my thigh, He said, to me: "You have detained Allah's Apostle and the people where there is no water and they have no water with them.

So he admonished me and said what Allah wished him to say and hit me on my flank with his hand. Nothing prevented me from moving (because of pain) but the position of Allah's Apostle on my thigh. Allah's Apostle got up when dawn broke and there was no water. So Allah revealed the Divine Verses of Tayammum. So they all performed Tayammum. Usaid bin Hudair said, "O the family of Abu Bakr! This is not the first blessing of yours." Then the camel on which I was riding was caused to move from its place and the necklace was found beneath it. - Sahih Bukhari 1:7:330

Narrated Aisha: A necklace of mine was lost at Al-Baida' and we were on our way to Medina. The Prophet made his camel kneel down and dismounted and laid his head on my lap and slept. Abu Bakr came to me and hit me violently on the chest and said, "You have detained the people because of a necklace." I kept as motionless as a dead person because of the position of Allah's Apostle ; (on my lap) although Abu Bakr had hurt me (with the slap). Then the Prophet woke up and it was the time for the morning (prayer). Water was sought, but in vain; so the following Verse was revealed:-- "O you who believe! When you intend to offer prayer.." (5.6) Usaid bin Hudair said, "Allah has blessed the people for your sake, O the family of Abu Bakr. You are but a blessing for them." - Sahih Bukhari 6:60:132 

Muhammad allowed for Abu Bakr to slap Aisha

Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter ofKhadija when you asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger (mav peace be upon him) laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) then got up went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying: You ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) for anything he does not possess. Then he withdrew from them for a month or for twenty-nine days. Then this verse was revealed to him:" Prophet: Say to thy wives... for a mighty reward" (xxxiii. 2 8 ). He then went first to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said: I want to propound something to you, 'A'isha, but wish no hasty reply before you consult your parents. She said: Messenger of Allah, what is that? He (the Holy Prophet) recited to her the verse, whereupon she said: Is it about you that I should consult my parents, Messenger of Allah? Nay, I choose Allah, His Messenger, and the Last Abode; but I ask you not to tell any of your wives what I have said He replied: Not one of them will ask me without my informing her. God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy. - Sahih Muslim 9:3506

Iyas b. Abdullah reported God's messenger as saying, "Do not beat God's handmaidens;" but when `Umar came to God's messenger and said, "The women have become emboldened towards their husbands," he gave licence to beat them. Then many women went round God's messenger's family complaining of their husbands, and he said, "Many women have gone around complaining of their husbands. Those are not the best among you." Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, and Darimi transmitted it.
Mishkat Al-Masabih: Volume 2, page 692 Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I waswith him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, 'A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, 'I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!' Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.' " - Al-Muwatta 30 2.13, See also:Al-Muwatta 30 30.213b

Muhammad Permited Muslims to Beat their Wives

Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
Abu Dawud 11:2142 Sulayman Ibn `Amr Ibn al-`Ahwas narrated: "Ubai told me that he witnessed the address of departure of the prophet. He thanked God and praised him, and started preaching, saying, "I command you good-will for your wives, for they are captives to you that do not own anything, unless they commit a manifest obscenity [or adultery]. If they do [commit it], then God has given you permission to leave them alone in their beds and give them a bearable beating."

Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you. Abu Dawud 11:2141

Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an. - Tabari:9:113 

-------------------------------------------
See more quotes like these from Islam's own sources: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Women

Ghokle, this is my evidence that Islam condones wife-beating. I expect you to reject all of this evidence so its ok.

- A true Muslim would follow the commands of the Quran, examples of his prophet and the hadith and would not hesitate to beat his wife like in all the historical situations above in the time of Muhammad.
- A good human being would not beat up his wife
- Can a true Muslim be a good human being? I dont believe so.
- Can you remain a Muslim while disagreeing that wife-beating is wrong and (falsely thinking) that Islam doesnt support wife-beating? Sure, there are millions of Muslims around the world like that. If one doesnt believe in some parts of Islam, that doesnt mean they're not a Muslim. People pick and choose all the time and give all kinds of justifications. Thats what you've been doing throughout this thread. I'm not going to spend any more time debating with you so I wish you good luck.

Sanitarium did a GREAT job of talking about 65:4, thanks Sani!

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

What has changed between then and now to mean that we can behave differently? Why is it that your cultural background thinks incest is wrong, when people elsewhere in the world feel no problem in following the absolute word of the Quran and marrying young?

Who decides what we can do differently to Mohammad?

 

ghoklebutter

I don't know why the culture was different back then, since I can't pin down what the exact origin is.

People change, times change.

Beliefs change too. Why are you believing in beliefs 1400 years old? Times change, right?

By the way quoting from what you said earlier:

-This is a pretty good indication that hurting a woman is not allowed

Quran 4:34 asks a man to beat his wife if she doesnt obey him. But wait if I got the Quran verse to show you and 11 Islamic scholars you would still insist thats not what the Quran says because it was talking about a man beating his wife in chess or something.

4:34 was something that Sanitarium brought up too and you didnt respond to that too. Let me just ask you: how do you know that Muhammad was telling the truth when he said he was getting messages from God?

Ok Metalgear, I'll try.

 Ghokle you should go back, read and respond to all of Sanitarium's posts.

MetalGear, ok

 - the sole purpose of the comment was to annoy/irritate.

 Thanks for letting me know. I'll report to you any offenses by Ghokle as well. Sorry for bypassing the word censor. I didnt know things are monitored that closely here. I'd think one little word wouldnt matter, but ok.

I would like to report this comment to you from Ghokle:"You fail to realize that those are just opinions."

I dont know how different my "you dont know anything about Islam or arabic", is from the bold above but fine, just for you I'll refrain from that.

Ghokle

- You fail to realize that those are just opinions.

You fail to realize that you cannot ignore the Tafsirs of 11 different Islamic scholars.

- How come there is not a single scrap of criticism towards the marriage by the people around him at the time?

If there was, would you have believed it? You've rejected the 11 different scholars already.

-And since 65:4 does not permit paedophllia, this is far from a confirmation of the verse. 

Incorrect, 65:4 allows a man to have sex with a girl who hasnt reached puberty.

- The culture was different back then. 

Why be a Muslim today then? What does Islam teach you that you cant get from today's teachings?

- Do you think that the whole world set the standard age of marriage at 18 from the beginning of time?

The Quran says Muhammad is an example for all to follow, for all times.

No sorry, you cant ignore the tafsirs and hadith and do your own junior analysis that contradicts the scholars and most of all, Muhammad himself.

- These scholars may be famous but it's only their (very false) opinion that paedophillia is allowed.

Do you think scholars made things up? Where do you think they got their explanations from? Its Muhammad's own deed of having sex with 9 year old Aisha that pedophilia is allowed in Islam.

And I'm saying that is exactly what the article says too. Why have you not responded to Sanitarium's points now, Muhammad?

As for you saying it refers to woman who havent menstruated since their last period, as explained by Sanitarium already, Quran 2:228 already deals with that situation.

Adding to that again, your prophet had sex with 9 year old Aisha himself. This makes him a pedophile.

And once again, dont make me laugh by saying that 11 Islamic sholars who wrot the Tafsirs knew less about negation that you do.

- Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible. - ayyid Abul Ala Maududi: Tafhim al Quran. Commentary on Quran Chapter 65:4 

What are your qualifications as compared to Maudodi and the 10 other Islamic scholars?