I don't think that's entirely correct. In the UK, we had stong female leaders in pre-christian civilisations. For example, Boudicca defeated the Romans! Elsewhere in the world, famous female rulers are common too.

The catholic faith has to change as more people can't relate to the religion. The changes made are an attempt to reverse the trend away from organised and oppressive religions in the west.

Why does the church not lead the way? After all, they are supposed to look after the moral welfare of their flock. Why fall behind and begrudgingly change because they have to or they'll just fade away.

Another interesting thing about catholics is their stance on evolution. There is no official acceptance, aside from the notion of a "discussion" and some strange non-committal quotes from vparious popes since the 1950s.

RationalAtheist

I have no idea how you can say that women were not persecuted and looked at as substandard throughout history, so I won't even bother arguing with you there- that is a historical fact.

Of course the Catholic Church is conforming to how society is, every organization does the same- not just religion. Hilary Clinton is running for president, hence politics have changed.

No offense intended, but I have no idea what you're trying to say about "Organized oppressive religions in the west," That comment made no sense to me at all.

They change because that IS leading. If a priest still kept his back to the mass, spoke Latin, and kept their old views about women, how will that help us? I can understand a homily spoken in English, and take a lesson away from it. It has nothing to do with them 'Fading away,' 30 years ago the Catholic Church was the same it's been throughout history and their numbers have never faltered. They did it for their people.

As for the evolution, this is officially my 3rd post in this thread saying the same thing, so please read it this time:

As a Catholic, I believe in Evolution. I believe God gave us a brain capable to challenge and question things that are said to us, the bible included. I don't believe Adam and Eve were actual real flesh and blood people, I think the story is a fable that needs to be read deeper. I don't believe anything in the bible is to be taken literally or verbatum, I think God wants us to challenge and question, only then will we find the true answers. As for the Big Bang, something had to have set something in motion for that to occur. Some being or presence had to have started some motion to cause the big bang.

Really? The catholic Church? Lutherians? I know the CofE only allowed them in 15 years ago! There are many branches of the christian faith that still cling to that sexist old tradition.

Am I still wrong?

RationalAtheist

Read my above post. And for the record, sexism is not an 'old tradition,' we're still getting over it! It's gotten better over the past 80 years, but we still have a lot more ground to cover. And again, that was an issue of society, not religion.

And yet sexism remains a common theme in the christian church heirarchy and its teachings.

RationalAtheist

Actually, sexism is more prevalent in Catholicism than in Christianity. However, (surprisingly), the Catholic church is conforming more and more to modern times. About 30 years ago they stopped speaking their mass in Latin and faced the crowd. About 15 years ago girls were allowed to partake as Alter Servers (the term became 'alter server' rather than 'Alter Boy') and there are current talks of allowing females into the Priesthood (believe it or not.) Also, the sexism more derrived from the time period than the religion. In history, women were all looked at as lower than their male counterparts. Those were just the times. However, as we all know, women are now accepted in society as equal to men, so the Catholic Church is slowly moving to accept this belief as well.

Yeah, I can agree with you on that, but I still believe that God should have at least some mercy on us and help us out a little.

shaw369

I can't relate God to having human emotions, but look at it this way: God gave us the ability to do good, to make this world the most prosperous and peaceful place in all of existence, and look what we've done. How would you feel? Would you feel the need to intervene when your children have ruined everything you have created for them?

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"]
then why the hell isn't our precious god doing anything to stop the millions dying in the Darfur conflict right now? If it is the work of the devil then why isn't god intervening? That's right, because if he does exist, he couldn't possibly give a **** for one human life right now. We're like ants to him, and he doesn't care who lives and who dies in the first placeshaw369

Like I said in my last post, it's due to free will. God does not work people like puppets, we are free to create our own conflicts, elect our own leaders, war with our neighboring countries. It's a blessing and a curse.

I'm going to have to agree with you on the free will part about us being able to choose our actions,but shouldn't there be some pointwhere our God should step in and help out the extremely unfortunate people like the ones in Ethiopia who can't even eat? That, in my eyes, is his punishment to his creations that don't deserve it.

I don't want to sound harsh here, I do feel terrible for those unfortunate people, however it can all be traced back to free will. Their ancestors (or them, today) could choose to migrate to more fertile lands, yet they don't (and won't, for some reason). Every horrible situation can be traced back to the actions, or lack of actions, of man.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"]
*sigh* would the Crusades have happened if the Pope hadn't sanctioned them? No :| If there was no religion, would the Jews have been discriminated against and subsequently killed in the Holocaust? No :| Would the Inquisition have been made without religion? (The Inquisition was responsible for thousands of deaths during the Enlightenment period) No :| Religion may not be the only factor causing violence, but it sure as hell is a huge factor!RationalAtheist

I agree with you that- Catholicism and Muslum in particular (no offense, I am Roman Catholic so I'm admitting our faults here)- are some of the most corrupt organized religion of all time. I also agree that organized religion has caused much pain and suffering throughout history, but it has also caused much good throughout history. In this respect, organized religion is the faults of man, not God. The crusades, indulgences, witch hunting, they were all the errors of man, not God.

They were the errors of man (I'd say that because I believe god does not exist) but they committed them in gods name. The issue is that they interprested the bible incorrectly. How many different flavours of christianity are there? All supposedly based on varying interpretations from 1 book. Even the Koran is based on the old testement and that religion seems directly opposed to christianity.

What is the correct interpretation? It can never be proved. Is any interpretation correct? I'd say the bible was written a long time after humanity started. Because it is so open to interpretation, its hardly a useful tool we can use to make sense of life. Remember how corrupted the modern bible has become.

I would angrily tell you to read my prior post, but this thread is getting posts to fast to keep up, so I'll repeat.

First off, (I said this in my first post), I don't expect to change your views. With a name like RationalAthiest it seems that you're pretty firm in your views, which is fine, but I'll still throw in my 2 cents.

The main idea of my posts in this thread was that of Free Will, something most people overlook. We are completely free to do what we want to do. Evil or Good, we are free to choose. God does not interject with free will, he will not work us like mindless puppets.

As for the bible, I posted recently that I don't believe (despite the fact that I'm Roman Catholic) that the bible is intended to be taken literally. I don't think it was intended for us to believe that Adam and Eve were real people (one example of MANY, especially when it comes to Revalations), I think it's a much deeper story than anyone realizes. God would not have given us a brain capable of challenging and questioning things if he wanted everyone to read the bible and take it verbatum.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]

[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"]
*sigh* would the Crusades have happened if the Pope hadn't sanctioned them? No :| If there was no religion, would the Jews have been discriminated against and subsequently killed in the Holocaust? No :| Would the Inquisition have been made without religion? (The Inquisition was responsible for thousands of deaths during the Enlightenment period) No :| Religion may not be the only factor causing violence, but it sure as hell is a huge factor!hamstergeddon

I agree with you that- Catholicism and Muslum in particular (no offense, I am Roman Catholic so I'm admitting our faults here)- are some of the most corrupt organized religion of all time. I also agree that organized religion has caused much pain and suffering throughout history, but it has also caused much good throughout history. In this respect, organized religion is the faults of man, not God. The crusades, indulgences, witch hunting, they were all the errors of man, not God.

Like I've been posting before, God gave EVERYONE (including the Pope) free will. Yes, the Pope is in direct contact with God, but he still has the ability to work towards his own motives, whether is be wealth, fame, political, whatever. It's unfortunate, but what would life be like if God worked everyone like puppets?