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Stavrogin_

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#1 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That's not correct. You are again confusing knowledge with restriction of choice. They are not the same thing. At all.LJS9502_basic
His infinite knowledge IS a restriction of choice, because since he's omnipotent he can't be wrong! And that contradicts free will by default.

No it does NOT. It means he knows why individual A will do.....but that does NOT mean he took away individual A's choice. Something you are not understanding it seems. I mean.....I can predict your next post will restate that knowledge = choice more or less. That does mean I took your choice away from you. And now I'm out. Duty calls.

You didn't take my choice away because you're not omniscient nor omnipotent. You're allowed to be wrong, an omniscient god isn't. God's infinite knowledge restricts free will by creating a paradox, if god is omniscient then he can't be wrong so every choice based on free will contradicts his omniscience. God knew what set of choices we were going to make even before we were born, so that means that in his eyes our lives are predetermined and only the illusion of free will exists. If free will DOES exist and we choose something else during the course of our lives that means god was wrong. That's why an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously. Your simplistic view on things does in no way solve this age old philosophical problem.

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#2 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No..it's fact. You are trying to fit God into human constructs.

LJS9502_basic

"God is above logic" is a cop out from any point of view. That one and "god works in mysterious ways" are my favorite cop outs. They can "justify" any contradiction no matter how obvious and any claim no matter how impossible or just downright stupid.

Actually what I said was logic is a human construct. Which is true. You are trying to make a supernatural entity fall under the laws as understood by natural (human) ideas. Which is illogical.

Yet another cop out. Wonderful.

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#3 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

That's not correct. You are again confusing knowledge with restriction of choice. They are not the same thing. At all.LJS9502_basic
His infinite knowledge IS a restriction of choice, because since he's omniscient he can't be wrong! And that contradicts free will by default.

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#4 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Logic is a human construct. God is not human.LJS9502_basic

That's a cop-out. ;)

No..it's fact. You are trying to fit God into human constructs.

"God is above logic" is a cop out from any point of view. That one and "god works in mysterious ways" are my favorite cop outs. They can "justify" any contradiction no matter how obvious and any claim no matter how impossible or just downright stupid.
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#5 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]

[QUOTE="thegerg"]Once again, this example does not demonstrate that an omniscient god and free will can't coexist. This example only shows that a god who is not omniscient is not omniscient. A god that is all-knowing would, by benefit of knowing all, know what decisions John would make through his free will. It seems that the problem here is that your concept of knowledge and what can be known by something that knows all is too narrow.thegerg

But then it's not free will, just an illusion of free will as i said many times before. If he really had free will he could have chosen a different path but then the omniscient god would be wrong. It's seems you don't know what free will and predetermination mean...

An omniscient god knows what John will do, it can't be wrong. I am well aware of free will and predetermination are, it seems that you are ignorant of the meaning of "omniscient." If a being knows all then it will know even the will of other creatures.

And that's why free will can't coexist with an omniscient god. You have absolutely no idea what free will and predetermination stands for, otherwise you wouldn't be making these rookie mistakes. You kinda shot yourself in the foot with this post... But you don't get it and i'm not your kindergarten teacher, so i can't and i won't try to explain it any simpler... Bye.
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#6 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]

[QUOTE="UniverseIX"]

There is a huge flaw in this entire discussion and that is people speak or think of god as thinking or behaving like a human would behave. It comes from both sides of the argument. Whether or not if you believe in God doesn't matter on this point. IT's clear that if God does exist God is not human, or would be anything compareble to human.

LJS9502_basic

If you were referring to the free will discussion then may i correct you, it has nothing to do with human behavior but has everything to do with common logic. Or are you saying that god is above logic? :)

Logic is a human construct. God is not human.

That's a cop-out. ;)
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#7 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

Once again, this example does not demonstrate that an omniscient god and free will can't coexist. This example only shows that a god who is not omniscient is not omniscient. A god that is all-knowing would, by benefit of knowing all, know what decisions John would make through his free will. It seems that the problem here is that your concept of knowledge and what can be known by something that knows all is too narrow.thegerg
But then it's not free will, just an illusion of free will as i said many times before. If he really had free will he could have chosen a different path but then the omniscient god would be wrong. It's seems you don't know what free will and predetermination mean...

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#8 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

There is a huge flaw in this entire discussion and that is people speak or think of god as thinking or behaving like a human would behave. It comes from both sides of the argument. Whether or not if you believe in God doesn't matter on this point. IT's clear that if God does exist God is not human, or would be anything compareble to human.

UniverseIX

If you were referring to the free will discussion then may i correct you, it has nothing to do with human behavior but has everything to do with common logic. Or are you saying that god is above logic? :)

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#9 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
Yes i would, i like mayonaise.
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#10 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]

[QUOTE="reiv"] I understand exactly what you are saying. Around 100 trillion trillion trillion years ago, god knew you was going to type that. You had no choice really.reiv

That would only be correct if a god existed, but i don't believe he does.

Neither do I. I was reinforcing your point.

Well sorry, i thought you were being sarcastic or something. :)