Stavrogin_'s forum posts

Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#1 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
You seem to be confused. Simply because a god knows what decision will be made does not mean that a person is not free to make a decision for themselves. You are still unable to demonstrate that/how one creature simply knowing everything means another creature has no free will.thegerg
It means only the ILLUSION of free will exists, what you think is your choice is not really choice. And i tried to explain it the simplest way i can so if you're still not getting it, it's not worth trying any further. I'm the one confused lol...
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That's not correct.thegerg

It's a pretty simple concept, an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously.

Here's why, god knew about "our choice to leave paradise" before we made it as you said in your example because he's all-knowing. Every choice you have made and you're going to make, god knows about because he's, once again, all-knowing. Logically, if an omniscient god exists, he knew about my destiny, he knew that i was going to become and atheist and end up in hell even before i was born, even before the very creation of the universe because yes, he is all-knowing.

Even if i "decide" to repent someday and become a christian someday, he knows/knew about it from the very beginning because, yes you guessed it, he is all-knowing. That's omniscience for ya! Infinite knowledge about everything, in that situation, free will cannot exist.

Your example does not demonstrate that or how an all-knowing being can't simultaniously exist with free will. Simply because a god knows what decision you will make does not mean that you aren't free to make that decision.

What?! Actually it does, god knows everything you're going to do so therefore only the ILLUSION of free will exists, not free will itself. He knows everything that everyone is going to do, there can't be anything he doesn't know otherwise he wouldn't be all-knowing. Omniscience is an on-off setting, either you are all-knowing or you aren't. You can't be a little bit omniscient just as you can't be a little bit pregnant. Lets say tomorrow you decide to become a satanist. You THINK you've made a choice based on your free will but in reality it's only an illusion as i said before, because god with his omniscient capabilities knew you were going to become a satanist on October the 25th even before you were born, even before your parents were born, heck, even before the universe was created. For the hundredth time, omniscience means infinite knowledge about everything. That's why an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously.
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

That's not correct.LJS9502_basic
It's a pretty simple concept, an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously.

Here's why, god knew about "our choice to leave paradise" before we made it as you said in your example because he's all-knowing. Every choice you have made and you're going to make, god knows about because he's, once again, all-knowing. Logically, if an omniscient god exists, he knew about my destiny, he knew that i was going to become and atheist and end up in hell even before i was born, even before the very creation of the universe because yes, he is all-knowing.

Even if i "decide" to repent someday and become a christian someday, he knows/knew about it from the very beginning because, yes you guessed it, he is all-knowing. That's omniscience for ya! Infinite knowledge about everything, in that situation, free will cannot exist.

Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
God gave humans free will.LJS9502_basic
If god is omniscient then free will doesn't exist, it's just an illusion because god knows everything about everything before it happens. For example, an all-knowing and all-powerful deity creates the universe and puts us on a small planet. Logically, he must have known about every crime, genocide, war that has happened and will happen even before the creation of the universe, because he is after all, omniscient. If he's supposed to represent love and he's omnipopent why hasn't he stopped anything. That's the so called "problem of evil"... But that's a little bit off-topic. On-topic. Lets say god gave me free will and i chose to become an atheist, that's only an illusion, because an omniscient god knew i was going to become an atheist someday, because, once again, HE IS all-knowing. Simply said, for god it's game over. He knows everything about everything, from every choice a someone has made and is going to make, to the very future of the universe and mankind. Infinite knowledge about everything. Therefore, if an omniscient deity exists free will is only an illusion.
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="Diophage"]And now thousands more will be killed... again. Sharia law is wonderful. Diophage
How does that change the fact that he was an oppressive swine responsible for the death and misery of thousands of his own people?

Well, it doesn't, but the same could be said for many, many leaders. Including our own here in the US, who have killed thousands of innocents due to their negligence and constant desire for war. But I don't think supporting the rebels was a smart move for USA's reputation. You'll see why in the months to come when Sharia Law is in full force. We'll be deemed as that one country who helped overthrow a passable society in favor of an Islamic state.

I hope that doesn't happen but Gaddafi was a dictator who had to be removed and deserved what he got, the same applies to every other bloodthirsty tyrant, doesn't matter if muslim, christian or atheist. What happens afterwards, happens...
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]I can't believe some people are now supporting Gaddafi after seeing the video of his brutal death. His 42 year long oppressive rule of Libya and thousands of people that were killed just because one man was too greedy and power-hungry to give up his throne... thrown out of the window. Suddenly, he's not that bad, and he didn't deserve to die that way.Diophage
And now thousands more will be killed... again. Sharia law is wonderful.

How does that change the fact that he was an oppressive swine responsible for the death and misery of thousands of his own people?
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
I can't believe some people are now supporting Gaddafi after seeing the video of his brutal death. His 42 year long oppressive rule of Libya and thousands of people that were killed just because one man was too greedy and power-hungry to give up his throne... thrown out of the window. Suddenly, he's not that bad, and he didn't deserve to die that way.
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#8 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

Repubs gotta protect the rich...

CaveJohnson1
It's JOB CREATORS! :P
Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

^I share your pessimism towards humanity, for every brilliant mind there are a million dumbasses. Mediocrity everywhere... Great, i sound like a pretentious douche again. :)

A higher form of intelligence would be more trustworthy only if it's friendly towards us, but the real question is, why should it be? Why should an AI that's much more smarter than us abide us or follow the social constructs as morality. Why do good? What's good for us isn't necessarily good for it.

But as i said before, predicting what will happen after the singularity is foolish, we just can't know for sure.

Avatar image for Stavrogin_
Stavrogin_

804

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

1

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts



[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]

[QUOTE="ksire_68"]

Sounds like something straight out of MGS.

Frame_Dragger
I wouldn't know, i haven't played it. :)

Look, i'd hate to sound like a pretentious douche, but can someone please contribute to this discussion, ask a question or make a point instead of a witty remark?



I feel for you, so why not. Whatever the movement, the actual distance technologically from such a capability, never mind CHOICE, is vast. I think the issue with many "singularity" models are that they ignore what people WILL do, compared to what they CAN do. The first person who gets their "wetware" hacked is going to start a worldwide movement to abolish the tech, assuming that ever happens. You describe two major challenges, one is creating a meaningful AI (which is frankly as distant as ever), and understanding the human brain so well that we can "link" it effectively.

I have serious doubts that either will occur, and if they do it will be LONG and slow process with many intermediate steps during which I suspect people will find they have issues with brain-computer-brain interaction. Technological singularty theory also generally means an end to humanity as a useful element of the world... I don't see that ending in a term from Deus Ex, just ending humanity.

"The AI does not hate you, nor does it love you, but you are made out of atoms which it can use for something else." (Eliezer Yudkowsky)

Thank you. :D

I believe you're sceptical because of the many scientific predictions that have turned out to be false. Often we hear predictions like this will happen in 10 years, that will happen in 15, and unfortunately, 10 or 15 years after the announcement they say we'll have to wait for another 10-15 years.

The skepticism about AI is mainly due to the overblown statements by the pioneers of the IT industry many years ago, who messianically prophesied that today we would have AI. But the problem here is not only the engineers at that time were unrealistic about the development of hardware and software, but they also had no idea of ​​the complexity of the human brain and the sheer volume of computations it can perform. Today's a different story, scientific teams can replicate a part of the brain in software, there is already a successful brain machine interface based on EEG (so far almost exclusively on motor functions) in existence, but the real ace is in genetic algorithms: Write a bunch of algorithms, leave them to reproduce and make seed, then expose the seed to evolutionary pressure.


That's why i also believe 30 years or so is a realistic number. Technological advancement doesn't have to go way, though. There is a logical but not a necessary link between transhumanism and AI. Integration with nanotechnology is the other way to go, albeit it's a much harder process because if we're being realistic here, the human body is an evolutionary work that is not designed to live more than 30-40 years. The reasons for this are deep and systemic, and without completely rearranging the entire genetic make up, to the point at which rearranged "human" would be far from what we consider to be a human, radical changes are not possible. So it's more likely that we will develop AI that at worst, will just be an electronic equivalent of the human brain. Once this level is reached, this AI can (only) advance with a pace unimaginable for us. Nice eh?