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Stavrogin_

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#1 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

You have simply described a situation in which a god is wrong and, thus, not omniscient.thegerg

Huh? Well that was my point, actually.

You still have yet to explain how free will and an omnicient god can't exist together. thegerg

I just did...

Simply because a god may know what decisions one will make does not mean that can not make those decisions.thegerg

Simple, god knew what path John was going to take 14 billions years ago, or if he existed forever that means he knew what path John was going take for an infinitely long time. Now, free will implies that John could choose what path he wants to take in life out of several given options. If he chooses a different path that means god was wrong and he's not omniscient, ergo an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously.

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#2 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"] Let's say there is a god who created the universe. He, since he is omniscient, knows what path John Smith will take in his life. 14 billion years later (or 6000 if you're a young earth creationist) John is born and takes that path. If he really had free will he could have taken a different path but that would mean an omniscient god would be wrong and he's not really omniscient! So that's why an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously. I can't, i just can't explain it any simpler than that. Over and out.reiv
I understand exactly what you are saying. Around 100 trillion trillion trillion years ago, god knew you was going to type that. You had no choice really.

That would only be correct if a god existed, but i don't believe he does.

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#3 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="thegerg"]You still seem to be confused. There is a difference between a god knowing which path you will choose and there being only one path to choose from. I'm not saying that there is free will exists, simply that the reasoning you use isn't solid.

Let's say there is a god who created the universe. He, since he is omniscient, knows what path John Smith will take in his life. 14 billion years later (or 6000 if you're a young earth creationist) John is born and takes that path. If he really had free will he could have taken a different path but that would mean an omniscient god would be wrong and he's not really omniscient! So that's why an omniscient god and free will can't exist simultaneously. I can't, i just can't explain it any simpler than that. Over and out.
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#4 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
Yeah....if God was concerned over my drinking habits...he knew I'd choose coffee. That does not, however, mean He took my choice away. It was still my choice. Which is what you aren't getting in this discussion. God knowing what one chooses does NOT mean the individual still did not choose. And you have failed to provide any evidence that that would be the case. All you have reiterated is that God knew. That is not in dispute. But you have provided nothing substantive to back up your argument that knowing equals lack of choice.LJS9502_basic
It has everything to do with predetermination, which is also a pretty simple concept so i don't know why you have such a hard time understanding. I don't know how to explain it in a simpler way possible, if god knows everything then only the illusion of choice exists! Okay, here is an example. First, god is all-knowing and all-powerful, he knows everything that's going to happen, every single detail about everything. He knows, even before the very creation of the entire world we live in, that in 1950 a guy named John Smith will be born in Boston, MA. He knows that he'll drop out of college, start doing drugs and alcohol and so on... But he also knows that John at the age of 35 will decide to become a devout christian and stop with the drugs and alcohol, he will also decide to propose and get married with this lovely girl named Joanne. He will decide to have kids and get a job at the local supermarket. Now, god, since he's all-knowing he MUST HAVE known this even before the very creation of the universe, otherwise he is not all-knowing. I just can't stress that enough. So, here comes the year 1950, John is born... and here comes the year 1985 where a thirty-five year old junkie John decides to sober up and become a christian. But did he really decide or is he following a predetermined path, with the illusion of choice? Did he really made the choice to sober up, marry Joanne and get a job at a supermarket? Free will is, well i suppose you know the definition of free will... If he REALLY had free will it would mean that he could choose something else entirey, like not to marry Joanne or get a job as a taxi driver instead of a cashier at a supermarket but that would mean that god (who's all-knowing) was wrong! And he can't be wrong right?! (: Whatever choice you think you've made, you're just following a predetermined path, that's the sad reality. And if you're going to repeat the SAME argument, please just don't, don't... just ignore the post. Cheers.
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#5 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Again...you are confusing someone knowing the choice with not having the choice. They are not the same thing.....LJS9502_basic
No, if an omniscient deity exists our lives are predetermined in his "eyes" and what we think is choice is only a illusion of choice. You "choose" to drink coffee instead of a soda, that's been predetermined before the creation of the universe (once again) because god with his omniscience CAN'T be wrong, and what you think is a choice is not really - choice. :)

It's not predetermined. It's called knowing what the person will choose. Predetermined would mean you had no choice over coffee or soda.

Do you even know what predetermination means? Anyway, it doesn't seem like predetermined in your eyes because you're under the illusion that you have a choice between coffee and soda. God, with his omniscience, knew that LJ would choose coffee on October the 24th even before the creation of the universe (how many times do i have to repeat this) and that's the very DEFINITION of predetermination.
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#6 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Yeah and that's an argument that doesn't actually understand any of the terms. Free will is the ability to make your own choices. Nothing more. It doesn't mean someone cannot predict what choice you would make. It doesn't mean there won't be consequences of the choice. It means the individual chooses. I'm really not sure why OT has a problem with this term TBH.LJS9502_basic
And if god knows every single choice we're going to make during our lives, our destiny and how we're going to end up even before we were born (and before the very creation of the universe, may i mention it again) that means our lives are predetermined in his eyes and every choice we're going to make is just an illusion.

Again...you are confusing someone knowing the choice with not having the choice. They are not the same thing.....

No, if an omniscient deity exists our lives are predetermined in his "eyes" and what we think is choice is only a illusion of choice. You "choose" to drink coffee instead of a soda, that's been predetermined before the creation of the universe (once again) because god with his omniscience CAN'T be wrong, and what you think is a choice is not really - choice. :)
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#7 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts
Yeah and that's an argument that doesn't actually understand any of the terms. Free will is the ability to make your own choices. Nothing more. It doesn't mean someone cannot predict what choice you would make. It doesn't mean there won't be consequences of the choice. It means the individual chooses. I'm really not sure why OT has a problem with this term TBH.LJS9502_basic
And if god knows every single choice we're going to make during our lives, our destiny and how we're going to end up even before we were born (and before the very creation of the universe, may i mention it again) that means our lives are predetermined in his eyes and every choice we're going to make is just an illusion.
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#8 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Of course they can. Knowing what someone chooses to do does not mean one made the choice for them. Two totally different things.LJS9502_basic

You're confusing the problem of free will with the problem of evil. The problem of evil is sometimes else entirely. I'm talking about free will here, nothing to do with WHO made the so-called choice.

No I'm not. Choice is not inherently evil dude.

lmao, the problem of evil says if an all-knowing, all-powerful and (this is the most important thing) all-loving god exists why does he allow evil and wrong choices. Now THIS has everything to do with "who's choosing what".

The problem of free will is something else, and that's the topic i'm trying to address.

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#9 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

[QUOTE="Stavrogin_"][QUOTE="thegerg"]You seem to be confused. Simply because a god knows what decision will be made does not mean that a person is not free to make a decision for themselves. You are still unable to demonstrate that/how one creature simply knowing everything means another creature has no free will.LJS9502_basic
It means only the ILLUSION of free will exists, what you think is your choice is not really choice. And i tried to explain it the simplest way i can so if you're still not getting it, it's not worth trying any further. I'm the one confused lol...

You do seem to be confusing someone knowing what you do with not having free will. Every decision you make was yours to make. The fact that someone knows what you will choose to eat for breakfast does NOT mean they choose for you. Just means they knew YOUR CHOICES.

Yes, read my previous reply to you, i'm talking about something else entirely.

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#10 Stavrogin_
Member since 2011 • 804 Posts

Of course they can. Knowing what someone chooses to do does not mean one made the choice for them. Two totally different things.LJS9502_basic
You're confusing the problem of free will with the problem of evil. The problem of evil is sometimes else entirely. I'm talking about free will here, nothing to do with WHO made the so-called choice.