Jealousy, Egotistical: One commandment "Thou Shalt Not Hold any other god in higher regard to me" seems to exemplifiy this perfectly. and the fact that this god character speaks to mortals like us and says that he is the one triun (3 for the price of one) god of man, and anyone who disagree, should die.blooddemon666

Is this wrong in His case? If you were the creator, wouldn't you deserve the respect that is entitled to you. Yet, he we are on the internet arguing about His existence. I would say that His point of view is justified.

Unjust: I'm not too sure what passage, but many times, people are stoned to death for being "disobedient." When, in society has anyone gotten anywhere by being obedient?blooddemon666

Didn't Jesus say in the New Testament: "He who is without sin cast the first stone"? Im not too sure of your point on this one.

Unforgiving: For one, I thought that god was supposed to be forgiving, but how many genocides did he, and his followers commit? Soddom and gamorrah, noah and the flood, etc.blooddemon666

Again, it gets down to our role as the creation. In Romans, it compares our relationship with God to a potter and the clay. The clay is not the master of the potter. The clay is shaped and molded by the potter.

Furthermore, did God not become human and die on a cross for all of the sins of humanity? God didn't just forgive, he went to a gruesome human death for humanity.

Bloodthirsty: (as shown by the vast amount of genocide in the old testament)blooddemon666

If you are God, and you have a plan, yet there are numerous groups of pipsqueaks that keep sprouting up and continuously declaring war on you and your people, do you sit back and let things take place? No, you exhibit your rightful place as God of the universe and stay the course that you designed, knowing that your way is right because you designed it.

God was protecting His people. He was like a father protecting his children.

Misogynistic: In scriputre, women are treated much like slaves, with men taking multiple wives and letting them be treated the same as well. Women were used as bartering tools in the times of the bible in order for peace, or expansion of lands.blooddemon666

Begging your pardon, but wasn't that a common historical practice elsewhere? People are people whether they be found in scripture or history books.

How does this common historical fact make a case against God?

[QUOTE="Strider212"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"][QUOTE="Strider212"][QUOTE="blooddemon666"][QUOTE="Strider212"]

You've completely misunderstood the point of Christianity. Christianity is meant to be about a better way of life through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Regardless of your beliefs, many of the teachings of the Bible are practical any way you slice them. Don't steal, don't murder, love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated, serve one another, etc. These aren't dogmatic teachings they are just good things to learn and practice.

xxDustmanxx

Exactly. But why do we need some over-riding religion to teach us these things.

I think we all, inherently, have our moral compass. And this passage from The God Delusion sums it up pretty well:

As a moral lesson? But what kind of morals could one derrive from this appalling story ?(story from the bible about Moses sacraficing his son Issac to god)

Remember, all I'm trying to establish is that we do not, as a matter of fact, derive our morals from scripture. Or, if we do, we pick and chose amongst the scriptures for the nice bits, and reject the nasty. But then, we must have some independent criterium which are the moral bits. A criterium in which, wherever it comes from, cannot come from scripture itself; and is presumably avalable to all of us, whether we are religious or not.

This exemplifies my point. We don't own slaves anymore, we don't stone our sons for being disobedient. Our moral compass as a society has changed, independant, or dare I say, in spite of religion.

Source for Passage and this expounds on our changing moral compass

I would say that my own moral compass is corrupted. Or at least life has taught me this. It is now Jesus Christ through me that drives my conscience. That isn't to say that my own personal compass is gone or irrelevant, it is just repositioned to a more accurate track (at least what I've found to be) on more than one occasion.

So,your aying that if you didnt believe in jesus your moral compass would be off?What does believing that jesus is god have to do with morals?

Not exactly. When one becomes a Christian, he enters a previously unseen battle with his flesh. If I allow myself (and I have before) to rely only on my carnal instincts, I find myself in a world of pain. As a Christian, my body screams one thing, but my spirit screams another. Who am I to believe, especially when my body seems to scream louder? It is this dichotomy that a non-Christian will not understand. Why on earth would I deny my body what it desires, right?

Well, it gets down to "tasting and seeing the Lord is good," as is stated in the Bible. Once I was convinced that following the Lord was a beneficial and enjoyable experience (through a relationship with Christ), it was a matter of following the rabbit hole further. It isn't easy, especially when logically the whole idea sounds ludicrous outside of context, but as a personal matter, I have to admit, it is a pretty amazing and fulfilling experience.

So, what does me believing that Jesus is Lord have to do with my morals? Well once you've experienced the alternative (fulfillment through a relationship with Christ who can actually offer me the things I need and want), the things my body are screaming for just don't seem so wonderful anymore.

I used to be a christian,now i find myself learning from my mistakes and gaining wisdom to pass down,rather than not embrace my humanity.

By no means do I deny myself my humanity. I am an avid musician, I am involved in many community groups, I like to go to parties, I like a good beer (but not too much), and I like movies and games. I simply view the world through a different lens than you do. And because I see things from a different perspective (which I would like to claim is a better one, but you are inclined to disagree) my motivations, goals, and ambitions are different. I am most satisfied when thinking outwards towards other people, rather than inward, at myself.

[QUOTE="Strider212"]For two reasons:1) My morality is tied to a personal relationship2) Society has no status quo on morality. Moral relativism rules between societies, so if everyone is looking to the person next to them to see what is right you come to a circle, which proves useless if no one holds to an undeniable truth.blooddemon666

But we all have an innate moral compass that we can follow, and if our moral compass is "corrupt" we can't act on much of it, because, if we do so, we put our human society at risk, and your fellow man will, in whichever way possible, will realign your compass. Whether via force, logic, incarceration, and in a very archaic practice, death.

That's the problem though. Everyone is in the same boat. You and I act on what we feel like is best, but if neither of us know the correct way, what are we to do? To further the problem, as I noted before, people continuously look at one another to see what is right, but the other person doesn't know either. That is why it takes something greater than ourselves to lead us to what is right.

Ever wonder why history repeats itself? Bam.

[QUOTE="Strider212"][QUOTE="blooddemon666"][QUOTE="Strider212"]

I would say that my own moral compass is corrupted. Or at least life has taught me this. It is now Jesus Christ through me that drives my conscience. That isn't to say that my own personal compass is gone or irrelevant, it is just repositioned to a more accurate track (at least what I've found to be) on more than one occasion.

xxDustmanxx

why do you need to profess your following of a deity to "realign" your moral compass. We're not talking about a personal moral compass, but a social one.

What?I dont look to the person next to me,or imagenary relationships.I look within myself.

Believe what you like, but the animals people are best likened to are sheep. Psychology proves it if you want scientific evidence. Search for the experiment with the man in the elevator.

Even people that claim to rebel against conformity in fact conform by congregating with others that share similar beliefs. But aren't they still engaging in the same behavior.

Similarly, your beliefs are relative to mine, so if we both believe in our own interpretations of things how will we get anywhere? This is why religions spring up: in an effort to define a truth that is undeniable in order to escape the circle.

[QUOTE="Strider212"][QUOTE="blooddemon666"][QUOTE="Strider212"]

You've completely misunderstood the point of Christianity. Christianity is meant to be about a better way of life through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Regardless of your beliefs, many of the teachings of the Bible are practical any way you slice them. Don't steal, don't murder, love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated, serve one another, etc. These aren't dogmatic teachings they are just good things to learn and practice.

xxDustmanxx

Exactly. But why do we need some over-riding religion to teach us these things.

I think we all, inherently, have our moral compass. And this passage from The God Delusion sums it up pretty well:

As a moral lesson? But what kind of morals could one derrive from this appalling story ?(story from the bible about Moses sacraficing his son Issac to god)

Remember, all I'm trying to establish is that we do not, as a matter of fact, derive our morals from scripture. Or, if we do, we pick and chose amongst the scriptures for the nice bits, and reject the nasty. But then, we must have some independent criterium which are the moral bits. A criterium in which, wherever it comes from, cannot come from scripture itself; and is presumably avalable to all of us, whether we are religious or not.

This exemplifies my point. We don't own slaves anymore, we don't stone our sons for being disobedient. Our moral compass as a society has changed, independant, or dare I say, in spite of religion.

Source for Passage and this expounds on our changing moral compass

I would say that my own moral compass is corrupted. Or at least life has taught me this. It is now Jesus Christ through me that drives my conscience. That isn't to say that my own personal compass is gone or irrelevant, it is just repositioned to a more accurate track (at least what I've found to be) on more than one occasion.

So,your aying that if you didnt believe in jesus your moral compass would be off?What does believing that jesus is god have to do with morals?

Not exactly. When one becomes a Christian, he enters a previously unseen battle with his flesh. If I allow myself (and I have before) to rely only on my carnal instincts, I find myself in a world of pain. As a Christian, my body screams one thing, but my spirit screams another. Who am I to believe, especially when my body seems to scream louder? It is this dichotomy that a non-Christian will not understand. Why on earth would I deny my body what it desires, right?

Well, it gets down to "tasting and seeing the Lord is good," as is stated in the Bible. Once I was convinced that following the Lord was a beneficial and enjoyable experience (through a relationship with Christ), it was a matter of following the rabbit hole further. It isn't easy, especially when logically the whole idea sounds ludicrous outside of context, but as a personal matter, I have to admit, it is a pretty amazing and fulfilling experience.

So, what does me believing that Jesus is Lord have to do with my morals? Well once you've experienced the alternative (fulfillment through a relationship with Christ who can actually offer me the things I need and want), the things my body are screaming for just don't seem so wonderful anymore.

[QUOTE="Strider212"]

I would say that my own moral compass is corrupted. Or at least life has taught me this. It is now Jesus Christ through me that drives my conscience. That isn't to say that my own personal compass is gone or irrelevant, it is just repositioned to a more accurate track (at least what I've found to be) on more than one occasion.

blooddemon666

why do you need to profess your following of a deity to "realign" your moral compass. We're not talking about a personal moral compass, but a social one.

[QUOTE="Strider212"]

You've completely misunderstood the point of Christianity. Christianity is meant to be about a better way of life through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Regardless of your beliefs, many of the teachings of the Bible are practical any way you slice them. Don't steal, don't murder, love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated, serve one another, etc. These aren't dogmatic teachings they are just good things to learn and practice.

blooddemon666

Exactly. But why do we need some over-riding religion to teach us these things.

I think we all, inherently, have our moral compass. And this passage from The God Delusion sums it up pretty well:

As a moral lesson? But what kind of morals could one derrive from this appalling story ?(story from the bible about Moses sacraficing his son Issac to god)

Remember, all I'm trying to establish is that we do not, as a matter of fact, derive our morals from scripture. Or, if we do, we pick and chose amongst the scriptures for the nice bits, and reject the nasty. But then, we must have some independent criterium which are the moral bits. A criterium in which, wherever it comes from, cannot come from scripture itself; and is presumably avalable to all of us, whether we are religious or not.

This exemplifies my point. We don't own slaves anymore, we don't stone our sons for being disobedient. Our moral compass as a society has changed, independant, or dare I say, in spite of religion.

Source for Passage and this expounds on our changing moral compass

I would say that my own moral compass is corrupted. Or at least life has taught me this. It is now Jesus Christ through me that drives my conscience. That isn't to say that my own personal compass is gone or irrelevant, it is just repositioned to a more accurate track (at least what I've found to be) on more than one occasion.

You've completely misunderstood the point of Christianity. Christianity is meant to be about a better way of life through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Regardless of your beliefs, many of the teachings of the Bible are practical any way you slice them. Don't steal, don't murder, love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated, serve one another, etc. These aren't dogmatic teachings they are just good things to learn and practice.

Strider212

This is true,although id rather not have a relationship with a dead guy i dont know.I dont need a label to have morals.Rather than believe in something just because i dont understand the world i like to think for myself and search and ponder.The world is a marvelous place if you let it be.

xxDustmanxx

I could completely understand that. Morality as Christianity defines it is not understood by those that aren't Christians. But Christianity is not about morality. Most people view God as a sort of Santa Claus figure that grants gifts to those that are good. It doesn't work that way. God blesses us in spite of the things that we do. That's the point of grace, something that no other religion understands. The world is indeed a wonderful place, and it is my belief that God created the desire in us to explore the world around us.

Right on, man.

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="cowboymonkey21"][QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="cowboymonkey21"][QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="The_Ish"]

I am not convinced by the validity of religion - it does not really contribute or take away from mankind.

xxDustmanxx

So your saying Religion doesnt help people?

Christian Charity? The teachings of christ. Love thy enemy.

Yet you seem to forget about me mentioning one of the benefits from charity. Also please tell the benefits of Atheism as i have yet to see them. Also Whats wrong with the saying love thy enemy? Its about peace if we all loved our enemy there would be no war would there now.

You speak of Christianity and atheism as being job offers.Benefits?Im not looking for benefits,im just trying to understand the world as it really is,it looks like someone wants to feel good about being able to go to heaven.Yeah,live eternally,please,you could care less about spending time with this god.Thats crazy,i dont need to be promised immortality to be a good person.

You've completely misunderstood the point of Christianity. Christianity is meant to be about a better way of life through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Regardless of your beliefs, many of the teachings of the Bible are practical any way you slice them. Don't steal, don't murder, love one another, treat others as you would like to be treated, serve one another, etc. These aren't dogmatic teachings they are just good things to learn and practice.