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#1  Edited By TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

The PlayStation 4 is succeeding for the same reasons the PlayStation succeeded back in the 90s. Sony made a polished, powerful console specifically for gamers and developers. With an easy development environment, and a excellent marketing and PR. But crucially, Sony was also able to avoid the mistakes it's contemporaries were making. Nintendo had no idea what they were trying to do with the Wii U, thinking they could cash in on the Wii's success, without understanding why the Wii was a success, and being oblivious to a rapidly changing gaming landscape. And Microsoft, wanted to come in and pretty much bully gamers into conforming to their proposed always online, heavily restrictive, big brother is always watching practices that were both anti-consumer, and very shady. Really, Nintendo and Microsoft gave Sony 8th gen console dominance on a silver platter, making Sony's lives even easier. Had Nintendo and Microsoft not been messing up, the PS4 would be facing much stiffer competition.

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#2 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts
@Gatygun said:

About iwata.

Wii and DS sold so well, because of zero competition.

Sony alienated its market by making a massive overpriced box that nobody could buy, developers didn't understand. it basically killed itself completely out of its own market. And also released later on top of it then there competition i think.

The only one that really was in that gen available for the average joe was a wii. Because it was half its price practically 670 euro's for a ps3 + game vs 300 euro's. Massive difference.

Thing was barely faster then the gamecube but fast enough to create ps2+ experiences and mud furhter on family based games.

But why family based games? and not core games? because they couldn't compete with microsoft anyway and pc without having to invest massively ( which they couldn't ). so why bother. They already lost that market.

It's not mind blowing hard to see why the wii sold. it was the ps2 next generation market. It was interesting for everybody in the living room and not just that one hobo son that likes to shoot people 24/7.

A lot of new people got introduced to console gaming with the PS2 and eye toy and they searched the next big time.

Eventually people got tired of wii and moved away to other products that did things better like tablets / mobiles and ps3/xbox360 ( ps3 end of its life time basically ) because wii was doa when it came on software a few years into its life span already.

Iwata had zero other option to build anything differently. I can give him kudo's for the wii remote which eventually didn't ended up being a standard but rather a gimmick much like the eye toy was.

If he indeed was such a good visionairy or mastermind then when he had the funds with the gamecube did he not build a wii from that point already? or focused on family based games like the ps2 did late in its life. He really didn't had the vision until the point he was forced into a situation.

This only further showed when his whole market moved towards mobile / ipads and he was sitting with a straight face at investors meetings saying ( no to ipads and no to mobile ). The whole market was just slipping under his arse away right there.

Then he launched a wii-u, for 350 bucks with a game nobody understood or cared for. Never reduced the price. Had a system that brought nothing that the wii brought forwards. Terrible to develop for, ancient hardware. Just a massive dud entirely. All 3rd party's just walked away from him instantly again.

he only had one job, release a ps4/xbox one performance box, with nintendo games + a decent online system. Nobody asked more from that gen. Or something that coudl keep up. Yet the wii-u barely runned current gen games. Support was dropped pretty much the day after its announcement from the market.

People could buy ps3's for super cheap with loads of content available and ps4 would most likely be the same price and around the corner where people where waiting on in the core segment also xbox one.

Basically he let his entire market slip. The handheld market got completely gutted by ipad's / mobiles also something he didn't paid any second of his time on.

Iwata has been a disaster for nintendo. It alienated there own markets to the point of moving back to a worse position then the gamecube area.

Before iwata:

n64 sold 33m

gameboy sold 120m

Iwata start ( 50% reduction on market )

gamecube sold 21,74m

gba sold 81,5 million

End of iwata ( 100% market reduction from before iwata took control )

wii-u sold 13,4m

3ds sold 61,5m

From what i can find is that in 1996 the gaming market was 20b worth, in 2016 that's almost 100b. that's a factor of 5 more. So that basically means, he lost a lot more market then they had back in the day. A lot more.

conclusion

Iwata was a disaster for nintendo.

Iwata was not a disaster for Nintendo. He had his flaws as a CEO sure, but he led Nintendo's most successful era and helped lay the blueprints for the current casual market.

Eventually people got tired of wii and moved away to other products that did things better like tablets / mobiles and ps3/xbox360 ( ps3 end of its life time basically ) because wii was doa when it came on software a few years into its life span already.

The Wii didn't start having significant sales declines until the 2010s. While I do stand by the fact that Iwata should've been better prepared for the next generation, making just a PS4 with Mario games wasn't the answer.

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#3 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@MirkoS77: I'm not absoving Iwata of fault. Like I said, lack of planing for the future post-Wii and DS was his biggest shortcoming as a CEO. I'm just saying not everything wrong with Nintendo is entirely his fault. The reason Yamauchi ruled Nintendo with an iron fist was because Nintendo was a very different company back then, it's corporate structure was nothing like what it is today. Unlike Iwata who focused on group decision making, Yamauchi wanted keep Nintendo and the industry in-check. He had the ability to make things happen through sheer force of will, and it was his way or the high way.

Of course, this also led to Yamauchi's biggest flaw as a CEO, his ego. His own arrogant attitude was what created the PlayStation in the first place, and his need for Nintendo to rule the industry with an iron first and his controversial statements towards the RPG genre drove away many of Nintendo's third party developers, who by that point, were already fed up with the company's restrictive nature.

Yamauchi was by no means a bad CEO, but he single handedly caused Nintendo's third party problems, of which the company is STILL trying to recover from.

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#4 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts
@MirkoS77 said:
@TheMisterManGuy said:
@MirkoS77 said:

I have been saying this for YEARS, and have made numerous posts on it to the point of being a broken record. Are people really only now waking up to the fact that it's maybe not the best move to put those with creative predilections into a position that requires detachment and objective determination of markets that far transcend the desires of the creatively inclined?

This is why I always disliked and disagreed with Iwata as a CEO, why I've objected with his appointments (moving Miyamoto to an executive role), and is exactly the reason I believe Nintendo deteriorated under their leadership. They are unable to detach their creative biases from executive considerations that (should) address international markets. They largely utilized Nintendo as their personal Japanese developmental studio. I've always said Nintendo needs someone in charge who doesn't give one shit about software aside from its quality and appeal to various demographics and territories.

Not saying that it's impossible to have someone creative in charge who can do this (Steve Jobs is a prime example), but many cannot remove themselves from their work to pull back and see a bigger picture.

Iwata was a visionary, and a commendable CEO, but he wasn't perfect. I think the biggest problem with Nintendo under his leadership, was that he never seemed to have much of a long term plan for the company. Granted, much of Nintendo's current plans for the future, were put into motion by him, but I feel it could've been avoided had the company planed further ahead from the start. They struck gold with the Wii and DS, and then went "okay so... now what?". At times, it felt like Nintendo was just making shit up as they went along, never planing far enough ahead, instead focusing on short term goals, then scrambling at the last minnute to fix things when their ship is under fire. We've seen this happen time and time again from them. From quickly announcing core-focused Wii titles shortly after the E3 08 disaster, cutting the 3DS price 6 months after launch, and rushing to complete the holiday titles just to prevent it from failing, and the failure of the Wii U and not preparing for HD development prompting the company to quickly scramble to restructure and get everything on the right path just to keep the thing afloat for as long as they could. Iwata did a lot of great things for the company, and for gaming in general, but I feel a lack of a long term plan was his biggest flaw as a CEO.

The bolded is not the definition of a company led by a visionary, that's known as being reactionary and someone lacking vision. Of to which I agree with you, Nintendo after the Wii became largely reactionary while attempting to thrust their dick rapidly at a wall while hoping they'd hit pay dirt. Under Iwata, Nintendo felt disorganized and chaotic, apathetic and lazy, not driven. I consider a visionary to be Steve Jobs. He knew exactly what he wanted and pushed extremely hard for it, to the point the man was nigh universally hated. Nintendo knew they wanted the success of the Wii again, but how to get it? That seemed to be arbitrarily determined out of the blue with no actual focus....and look at the U. It fits that description perfectly. It was a complete clusterfuck of a system.....a product of committee, not a single individual.

In the end, the proof is in the pudding when it comes to evaluating Iwata's legacy. He left Nintendo in an incredibly perilous position: years behind the competition, struggling for relevance, shrinking into niche territory, heading anti-consumer policies that alienated gamers, continual deterioration of third party support, terrible marketing, not utilizing the VC properly, laughable online and accounts, classic IPs left to rot, poor western support, and overall negative mindshare aside from the few diehards clinging on. Iwata left Nintendo much worse off than he received it. I don't only not consider him to not be a commendable CEO, I consider his appointment to a top executive position to be one of the worst things that has happened to the company.

Unfortunately I can't say this without being viewed as trampling on a man's grave, but his personal life is separate from his professional one, which should not be absolved of critique due to unfortunate circumstances. I admire Iwata as a game designer....the man was a genius. As a CEO? 100% a lemon.

A big reason why Nintendo felt so disjointed management wise was due to their corporate culture as a Kyoto based firm. Dan Adelman (former head of indie relations at Nintendo) explained this in possibly the best way he could.

Nintendo is not only a Japanese company, it is a Kyoto-based company. For people who aren’t familiar, Kyoto-based are to Japanese companies as Japanese companies are to US companies. They’re very traditional, and very focused on hierarchy and group decision making. Unfortunately, that creates a culture where everyone is an advisor and no one is a decision maker – but almost everyone has veto power.

Even Mr. Iwata is often loathe to make a decision that will alienate one of the executives in Japan, so to get anything done, it requires laying a lot of groundwork: talking to the different groups, securing their buy-in, and using that buy-in to get others on board. At the subsidiary level, this is even more pronounced, since people have to go through this process first at NOA or NOE (or sometimes both) and then all over again with headquarters. All of this is not necessarily a bad thing, though it can be very inefficient and time consuming. The biggest risk is that at any step in that process, if someone flat out says no, the proposal is as good as dead. So in general, bolder ideas don’t get through the process unless they originate at the top.

There are two other problems that come to mind. First, at the risk of sounding ageist, because of the hierarchical nature of Japanese companies, it winds up being that the most senior executives at the company cut their teeth during NES and Super NES days and do not really understand modern gaming, so adopting things like online gaming, account systems, friends lists, as well as understanding the rise of PC gaming has been very slow. Ideas often get shut down prematurely just because some people with the power to veto an idea simply don’t understand it.

The last problem is that there is very little reason to try and push these ideas. Risk taking is generally not really rewarded. Long-term loyalty is ultimately what gets rewarded, so the easiest path is simply to stay the course. I’d love to see Nintendo make a more concerted effort to encourage people at all levels of the company to feel empowered to push through ambitious proposals, and then get rewarded for doing so.

Dan Adelman

Long story short, there was a power struggle within the company where everyone has the ability to shoot down an idea at any point in the process. To get anything done at Nintendo, each division and board member involved has to be on board with the plan. If one person says no, then that's the end of that. It create a situation where instead of everyone working together and having a unified plan, each division was essentially, out for each other's blood, fighting for dominance over the company's inner-workings. Iwata has said and done some things I disagreed with, but not every bad business decision made by the company was his doing. A lot of it had to do with the inflated ego and stubbornness of the aging board members who insisted on doing things the old fashion way, instead of actually trying to grow as a company. Hell, I read somewhere that Iwata and the hardware team had to pretty much fight the board members just to get the Wii and DS made.

In a way, Nintendo's success with the Wii and DS was their own undoing, and it caused management at the company to spiral out of control. It also seemed that Iwata was all to aware of this, and handled the problem like a programmer, his quote "if the System doesn't work, it's definitely your fault" held especially true for Nintendo's situation at the time. Much of Nintendo's recent restructuring and re-branding efforts were put into place by Iwata himself during the last few days of his tenure.

It was essentially, the same problems Sega had during the mid-late 90s. Management all over the place, each branch at the company trying to sabotage each other, culture clash between Western and Japanese ideals. And unable to pick a direction and stick to it.

Like I said, Iwata has done a lot of good in the early Wii and DS era for Nintendo, but his lack of a long term plan caused management at the company to get out of control. While the limitations of Nintendo as a Kyoto based company will never truly go away, they can definitely be reduced, and that's something Iwata was trying to accomplish during his last days at Nintendo.

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#5 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:

I have been saying this for YEARS, and have made numerous posts on it to the point of being a broken record. Are people really only now waking up to the fact that it's maybe not the best move to put those with creative predilections into a position that requires detachment and objective determination of markets that far transcend the desires of the creatively inclined?

This is why I always disliked and disagreed with Iwata as a CEO, why I've objected with his appointments (moving Miyamoto to an executive role), and is exactly the reason I believe Nintendo deteriorated under their leadership. They are unable to detach their creative biases from executive considerations that (should) address international markets. They largely utilized Nintendo as their personal Japanese developmental studio. I've always said Nintendo needs someone in charge who doesn't give one shit about software aside from its quality and appeal to various demographics and territories.

Not saying that it's impossible to have someone creative in charge who can do this (Steve Jobs is a prime example), but many cannot remove themselves from their work to pull back and see a bigger picture.

Iwata was a visionary, and a commendable CEO, but he wasn't perfect. I think the biggest problem with Nintendo under his leadership, was that he never seemed to have much of a long term plan for the company. Granted, much of Nintendo's current plans for the future, were put into motion by him, but I feel it could've been avoided had the company planed further ahead from the start. They struck gold with the Wii and DS, and then went "okay so... now what?". At times, it felt like Nintendo was just making shit up as they went along, never planing far enough ahead, instead focusing on short term goals, then scrambling at the last minnute to fix things when their ship is under fire. We've seen this happen time and time again from them. From quickly announcing core-focused Wii titles shortly after the E3 08 disaster, cutting the 3DS price 6 months after launch, and rushing to complete the holiday titles just to prevent it from failing, and the failure of the Wii U and not preparing for HD development prompting the company to quickly scramble to restructure and get everything on the right path just to keep the thing afloat for as long as they could. Iwata did a lot of great things for the company, and for gaming in general, but I feel a lack of a long term plan was his biggest flaw as a CEO.

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#6 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

If you ever wonder why Nintendo is seemingly oblivious to market demands and fans, well I think I might have an answer.

https://gamesandopinions.wordpress.com/2017/01/21/does-nintendo-have-too-many-artists-in-power/

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#7 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

We can all agree that the Nintendo Switch live conference was a less than stellar presentation. Awkward translations, sluggish pacing, weak third party presence and hefty price tags bogged it down quite a bit. That being said, I think people are complaining for the wrong reasons.

When the Switch was first unveiled, many people were hoping it would return Nintendo to being a hardcore gamer company that focused on hardcore, mature games with no gimmick or filthy casual garbage. Just a controller, handheld, and classic Nintendo franchises and AAA 3rd party games. Then Nintendo comes out in January and basically says "LOL, I don't think so!" and proceeds to double down on their Wii/DS era mindset. Unsurprisingly, gamers were salty. After all, this was supposed to be Nintendo's return to the glory days of the **GameCube** where they were hardcore and for "gamerz!".

What people fail to realize, is that this is how Nintendo ALWAYS was. Anyone with any amount of common sense and knowledge of how Nintendo approaches video games really should've seen this coming. Yes, with Nintendo Switch, Nintendo is going back to it's roots. However, it's not the Hardcore, mature gaming, nostalgia filed, adult male Nintendo that people seem to fantasize about. It's the pick-up-and-play, fun for everyone, local multiplayer, mobile first Nintendo that defined their success with the Famicom and GameBoy, and strengthened it with the Wii and DS. And that's what the Switch is, Nintendo is doubling down on their strengths, not conforming to their weaknesses.

That isn't to say the company hasn't learned a thing or two. The launch line up may be barren, but if you look at the Switch's first year as a whole, it looks a lot rosier. Nintendo seems to be avoiding front loading the Switch launch with too many titles to avoid Wii U esque software droughts, and instead prepping a major first-party release for nearly each month, with more potentially on the way at E3. As much as I hate pay-walled online play with a passion, the fact that Nintendo's service is subscription based might mean it's a lot more feature packed and modern that it probably won't matter in the long run. That NES rental nonsense is complete BS though.

The Switch as a whole, also looks to have a lot more thought put into it's design and gimmicks than the Wii U ever did. The IR motion capture thingy on the Right Joy-Con may look silly, but it at least has a functional gameplay purpose, unlike the camera and TV remote nonsense on the Wii U Gamepad. And the fact that each Joy-Con can be used as a separate controller is the kind of smart ingenuity that hasn't been seen from the company since the Wii and DS era.

Going back to the reveal trailer for Nintendo Switch in October, it's easy to see this was never going to be the Hardcore gamer box that fans were clamoring for. No amount of hip 20-somethings, Skyrim, or Red branding, was ever going to change that. Nintendo might be done with the Wii and DS brands, but the philosophy and technology they introduced will always remain within the company, and if you think they're going away anytime soon just to gain some street cred, think again.

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#8 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@smashed_pinata said:

Acquired IMO. Nintendo already has the best in the biz for in-house, they need to attract some other devs to keep droughts from becoming an issue.

They have the in-house talent. But Nintendo needs to actually use it more. The younger designers need to make more of their own games, and have their own distinctive style. It'd be nice to see Nintendo as a house of a diverse range of artists, rather than seeing Miyamoto all the time.

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#9  Edited By TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

There's a lot riding on the Nintendo Switch, with many hoping the new platform can boost Nintendo back to general consumer relevance. However, a sort of overlooked aspect that people don't really consider, is Nintendo's own first party software. While not as much as say Konami or Sega, I feel Nintendo has fallen very behind in game development ideology compared to some other developers, whether it be the mobile devs, indie devs, or some of the AAA developers. That's not to say their recent games are bad per-se, there's no denying the fun to be had in games like Mario Kart 8 or Smash Bros. 3DS/Wii U. But throughout this generation, Nintendo just mostly played by the numbers, never really stepping out of it's comfort zone outside of a few moments of flash-in-the-pan brilliance like Splatoon or Rusty's Real Deal Baseball. Even then, the company still clings to some of the same tropes and archaic limitations they held on to for years. I'm not necessarily asking Nintendo to give up who they are, but I wish they would be more ballsier and take more risks with what they produce (that isn't a 3rd party co-production).

Now, the answer most Nintendo fans would say is buy more studios, specifically, Western studios. That way, Nintendo can still play it safe, while the Western houses will do the risk taking for them. Let me just say that there is nothing wrong with the occasional studio acquisition. Having external houses under your control can be a plus. And an army of acquired studios may be fine for a company like SIE Worldwide Studios, who is a smaller division of a larger media conglomerate. But for a company that prides itself on home-grown talent like Nintendo, it's best to keep acquisitions to a minimum. Personally I want Nintendo to foster new talent in-house talent, and groom designers that can stay true to Nintendo's core philosophy, but still venture outside their comfort zone and take more risks with the games they create.

Thus brings me to the question at hand, would you rather see Nintendo groom and improve it's in-house talent at EPD, or just buy more studios and have them do the work for them?

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#10 TheMisterManGuy
Member since 2011 • 264 Posts

@Pedro: I don't mean your sterotypical western game, I mean taking influence from Western media in general. Western Comics, Western Cartoons, Western Films, etc. Incorporating a little more of that in some of their games would be beneficial.