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Unnatural101

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#1 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

[QUOTE="Unnatural101"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"]

Again, I have stated on why a PS3 programmer has to use CELL's SPUs for current raster render workloads.Using CELL with RSX is covered by my CELL patching up RSX postings, for example

3) Vertex texture sampling
You can texture sample in vertex shaders on 360 just fine, but it's unusably slow on PS3. Most multi platform games simply won't use this feature on 360 to make keeping parity easier, but if a dev does make use of it then you will have no choice but to move all such functionality to spu.

By this point alone, you have to use CELL with RSX as CELL's SPUs can't take over the entire pixel shader workloads.

4) Shader patching
Changing variables in shader programs is cake on the 360. Not so on the PS3 because they are embedded into the shader programs. So you have to use spu's to patch your shader programs.

On this point, before feeding shader programs to RSX, you JIT(Just In Time) patch up RSX's shader programs by CELL's SPUs. This is another example on using CELL with RSX.

The PC has a similar JIT optimisation built into it's GPU driver, but this particular PS3 optimisation is not needed for DX10 GPUs.

7) MSAA alternatives
Msaa runs full speed on 360 gpu needing just cpu tiling calculations. Msaa on PS3 gpu is very slow. You will want to move msaa to spu as soon as you can

Refer to screen space based MLAA. This is another example on using CELL with RSX. On The PC, Radeon HD's MLAA was done on the GPU.

9) Load balancing
360 gpu load balances itself just fine since it's unified. If the load on a given frame shifts to heavy vertex or heavy pixel load then you don't care. Not so on PS3 where such load shifts will cause frame drops. You will want to shift as much load as possible to spu to minimize your peak load on the gpu.

This is another example on using CELL with RSX. RSX doesn't have unified shader design for load balancing.

11) Shader array indexing
You can index into arrays in shaders on the 360 gpu no problem. You can't do that on PS3. If you absolutely need this functionality then you will have to either rework your shaders or move it all to spu.

This is another example on using CELL with RSX.

It looks like it is you who really don't have any idea on the points given above.

There are reasons on why both AMD and NVIDIA designed their DX10 GPUs with similar feature set.

PS; I code C++/C#(mostly C++)programming as my day job.

---------------

Any peek FLOPS count will be debunked by the very nature of RSX and CELL off-chip design and G7X/RSX's design issues.

ronvalencia

To be honest, everything you've said means very little...why?

Because for consoles, the Graphics king champions are almost always a PS3 game.

You can keep trying to explain away why the RSX and the Cell are somehow even to the XBOX 360 all you want, the fact is the fact....PS3 keeps outdoing XBOX 360 in the graphics department, over and over, and over, and come 2011....OVER again.

XBOX 360 tech is inferior to the tech of the PS3 and until I see otherwise, it is what it is....period.

Again, when comparing a game A on XYZ hardware against game B on hardware ABC, one must be careful with the art work differences.

Comparing a game A on XYZ hardware against game B on hardware ABC benchmark practises are not acceptable in professional IT world, but they are acceptable in art critic movie industry.

Refer to the topic question "Why do multiplats look better on the 360, but PS3 exclusives look better?"

Answer: Some Multiplats look better on the XBOX 360 because the game was led developed for it and the PS3 must be programed differently in order to achieve "on par" results.

PS3 exclusives look better because the PS3 has the more powerful hardware and has an extraordinary number of top flight developers to take advantage of the superior tech.

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#2 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

[QUOTE="Unnatural101"]

[QUOTE="ronvalencia"] Bayonetta Xbox 360 uses some custom AMD 3DC+ texture format. While RSX doesn't have such a feature.ronvalencia

I really wish you would stop talking about RSX this, RSX that......You've already been told the RSX doesn't perform by itself with the PS3.

The RSX performs with the CELL PROCESSOR.

Everytime you do that, it shows that you really have no idea what your talking about.

Once again, the RSX works with the CELL Processor and cannot be left out of the equation when trying to reference the power and FLOPS of the PS3.

Again, I have stated on why a PS3 programmer has to use CELL's SPUs for current raster render workloads.Using CELL with RSX is covered by my CELL patching up RSX postings, for example

3) Vertex texture sampling
You can texture sample in vertex shaders on 360 just fine, but it's unusably slow on PS3. Most multi platform games simply won't use this feature on 360 to make keeping parity easier, but if a dev does make use of it then you will have no choice but to move all such functionality to spu.

By this point alone, you have to use CELL with RSX as CELL's SPUs can't take over the entire pixel shader workloads.

4) Shader patching
Changing variables in shader programs is cake on the 360. Not so on the PS3 because they are embedded into the shader programs. So you have to use spu's to patch your shader programs.

On this point, before feeding shader programs to RSX, you JIT(Just In Time) patch up RSX's shader programs by CELL's SPUs. This is another example on using CELL with RSX.

The PC has a similar JIT optimisation built into it's GPU driver, but this particular PS3 optimisation is not needed for DX10 GPUs.

7) MSAA alternatives
Msaa runs full speed on 360 gpu needing just cpu tiling calculations. Msaa on PS3 gpu is very slow. You will want to move msaa to spu as soon as you can

Refer to screen space based MLAA. This is another example on using CELL with RSX. On The PC, Radeon HD's MLAA was done on the GPU.

9) Load balancing
360 gpu load balances itself just fine since it's unified. If the load on a given frame shifts to heavy vertex or heavy pixel load then you don't care. Not so on PS3 where such load shifts will cause frame drops. You will want to shift as much load as possible to spu to minimize your peak load on the gpu.

This is another example on using CELL with RSX. RSX doesn't have unified shader design for load balancing.

11) Shader array indexing
You can index into arrays in shaders on the 360 gpu no problem. You can't do that on PS3. If you absolutely need this functionality then you will have to either rework your shaders or move it all to spu.

This is another example on using CELL with RSX.

It looks like it is you who really don't have any idea on the points given above.

There are reasons on why both AMD and NVIDIA designed their DX10 GPUs with similar feature set.

PS; I code C++/C#(mostly C++)programming as my day job.

---------------

Any peek FLOPS count will be debunked by the very nature of RSX and CELL off-chip design and G7X/RSX's design issues.

To be honest, everything you've said is moot...why?

Because for consoles, the Graphics king champions are almost always a PS3 game.

You can keep trying to explain away why the RSX and the Cell are somehow even to the XBOX 360 all you want, the fact is the fact....PS3 keeps outdoing XBOX 360 in the graphics department, over and over, and over, and come 2011....OVER again.

XBOX 360 tech is inferior to the tech of the PS3 and until I see otherwise, it is what it is....period.

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#3 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

[QUOTE="Unnatural101"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"]That sounds like a convenient excuse. Can you find me an instance where any developer has flat-out said that they developed for the PS3 first. I don't want supposition, either, or just a list of games you came up with; I want an actual source (or better yet, what about sources from different games) where the developer said in no uncertain terms that they were developing for the PS3 first. That rarely even happens anymore; multiplats are almost always developed concurrently these days.ronvalencia

No problem....here you go.

Platinum Developing Vanquish on PS3 and 360; PS3 Lead SKU

Refer to http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vanquish-face-off

They are about even.Like to see a PC version.

They are pretty much even

The 360 has some sort of green filter that's slightly annoying, but for all intents and purposes, they are very similar.

360

PS3

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#4 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

[QUOTE="Unnatural101"]

[QUOTE="SpideR_CentS"] And universal mute, universal prefer, universal avoid, universal friends list, achievements for all games integrated (no loading), Tru Skill ranking and match making, Voice messages, private chat, video chat...

SpideR_CentS

Almost everything you mentioned were trivial features.

The only ones that weren't are the chat/messages, which I admit are better than the PS3, but the PS3 does support chat features...it's just better on 360.

Btw...PS3 also has video chat, and has had it for quite some time.

really? I didn't know that PS3 finally got that. Thats cool. Sorry but unversal avoid/mute is key. as is unversal friends list for all games. I do like truskill ranking matchmaking also.

What do you mean by universal friends list?

And what do you mean by universal mute?

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#5 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

Since PS3 is getting a version of steam....what is the difference between Steam and Steamworks?

I'm curious. thanks.

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#6 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

[QUOTE="TheMoreYouOwn"]

PSN. Been using it for 3 years for the content and multiplayer. Been able to use my brother in laws Xbox Live account also. There is no difference. Both have features and games. Only difference is cross game chat, and having to pay $60 to access all of your game.

SpideR_CentS

And universal mute, universal prefer, universal avoid, universal friends list, achievements for all games integrated (no loading), Tru Skill ranking and match making, Voice messages, private chat, video chat...

Almost everything you mentioned were trivial features.

The only ones that weren't are the chat/messages, which I admit are better than the PS3, but the PS3 does support chat features...it's just better on 360.

Btw...PS3 also has video chat, and has had it for quite some time.

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#7 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

as both services have been available for quite a long time now i wondered what SW thought were on both. actually i don't really care and i just wanted to see if anyone reads this and if any PSN vs XBL thread can hit 100+ posts. both offer a great service but MS decided to charge was this a good decision.

Vinegar_Strokes

For all intents and purposes,

XBOX LIVE has better chat features.

PSN, however is free to play games online.

Other than that, the fundamental difference between the 2 services is the same

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#8 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

While FF13 on the XBOX 360 isn't the greatest example because it was clearly Sub HD and had subpar sound and features compared to the PS3's superior version, however, the reason's for FF13's XBOX 360 shortcomings weren't because of power, but rather because of DVD, which is inferior older technology.

But I suppose that's for a different topic.

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#9 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

That sounds like a convenient excuse. Can you find me an instance where any developer has flat-out said that they developed for the PS3 first. I don't want supposition, either, or just a list of games you came up with; I want an actual source (or better yet, what about sources from different games) where the developer said in no uncertain terms that they were developing for the PS3 first. That rarely even happens anymore; multiplats are almost always developed concurrently these days.jalexbrown

No problem....here you go.

Platinum Developing Vanquish on PS3 and 360; PS3 Lead SKU

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#10 Unnatural101
Member since 2010 • 361 Posts

[QUOTE="Unnatural101"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] Where, oh where, did I say that 360 has crappy developers? I merely said they don't write engines that really showcase the 360. If the 360 really has so many "technical shortcomings", then how come so many multiplats have better - marginal, but still better - performance on the 360? Or do you want to be a hypocrit and blame that on the developers?ronvalencia

yes I will blame the developers when they make Inferior PS3 ports like Bayonetta (Platinum Games), but then the same developers turn around on their next game and lead develop Vanquish, and it slightly looks better on the PS3 (color)...but for the most part was even.

Yes, I blame the developer, and well as I should. Heck, even Platinum Games said they didn't do PS3 righteous.

Bayonetta Xbox 360 uses some custom AMD 3DC+ texture format. While RSX doesn't have such a feature.

I really wish you would stop talking about RSX this, RSX that......You've already been told the RSX doesn't perform by itself with the PS3.

The RSX performs with the CELL PROCESSOR.

Everytime you do that, it shows that you really have no idea what your talking about.

Once again, the RSX works with the CELL Processor and cannot be left out of the equation when trying to reference the power and FLOPS of the PS3.