[QUOTE="WhoaNellie32"][QUOTE="helium_flash"][QUOTE="Michael85"][QUOTE="dirktu"][QUOTE="Michael85"]

In the dark ages, there were public hangings and beheadings that everyone, children included, saw. Miraculously....we survived.

snyper1982

You were there? That makes you at least 500 years old. I'm honoured to meet you man :D.

All jokes aside, I don't understand why the Middle Ages are entering the discussion ;) .

Voilence, to its most extreme, has been around forever. Manhunt 2 isn't the end of the world as some seem to suggest.

Honestly, they need to get the hell over it. In the U.S., we have something called the first ammendment, and if you want the right to complain about anything, then they ("they" being the developers) have the right to give you that "anything" to complain about.

Also, in the US, we have a thing called censorship. I've been to other countries and saw dead bodies on the front page of local newspapers after the tsunami. Manhunt is by no means too extreme. Also, that is why we have the ESRB, so games like this won't get into the hands of kids.

Although witnessing disturbing pictures on the cover of a newspaper or passively watching them on tv isn't exactly promoting psychological well-being, to actively engage in such interactive virtual violence is an entirely different matter.

Only for people who are mentally unstable.

Bingo, buddy. What I've been saying all day.

[QUOTE="WhoaNellie32"][QUOTE="Michael85"]

In the dark ages, there were public hangings and beheadings that everyone, children included, saw. Miraculously....we survived.

snyper1982

If the basic survival of our species is the sole justification for allowing these types of images to be socially acceptable than you are correct, in your own delusional naive sort of way... If you look back on ancient Rome, people were forced to maliciously fight to the death against their fellow man, animals, etc. for the sake of other people's entertainment. Bloodsport has been a perdominant force throughout human existance in nearly every culture, as have many forms of immorality. However, one would hope a level-headed person would not use the barbaric example of the past to justify their destructive ways today. One would hope that we are at a point in our human existance where we can learn from the past, recognize it, and realize the destructiveness it caused societies in the past. One would hope that in our advanced state we could understand the ramifications these senseless images produce, and actively abstain from them. One would hope....

One would hope that any level headed person would see that disagreement, does mean the other side is wrong. One would hope that we are at a state where people can have the freedom to buy and do as they please, as long as they do not harm their fellow man. One would also hope that fellow gamers, would NOT be calling for the banning of certain games deemed immoral by THEIR values, as that will create a precident for banning OTHER games that they may enjoy. One would hope....

We have learned from the past. Now we do it in a virtual world where no one is really hurt. Much less mess to clean up then.... :)

"Freedom" is an ambiguous, subjective word. People have been arguing the definition of that word all day. You just quoted "where people have the freedom....do as they please..." Extreme individualism at its finest. Its disgusting. If you read one sentence of what i've written before you'll know I have not implied whatsoever that this game should be "banned." If this is what gets your jollies off fine. I just think its socially irresponsible to be making it in the first place, but I'm not going to be joining the mothers on the picket line protesting this game. Its just another sad instance of where this society is headed.

I think its a great idea to just push the envelope as far we can just to see where that point really is....Great idea. Great idea. 

Don't get me started about my particular morals in relation to anyone elses. I seriously doubt they are much different than most, and I can guarentee you that they are not unfounded. I doubt you've ever studied this subject or had enough introspection to seriously ask yourself these difficult questions without first worrying how it relates to you playing the next cutting-edge video game... Furthermore, for you to shroud this argument and accuse me of being "anti-video game" because of a possible negative ripple-effect precident you feel it would cause is ridiculous. This issue goes a lot deeper than just video games, pal.

[QUOTE="WhoaNellie32"]As a graduate student in psychology, studying and discussing the effects of violent images (particularly in the media) on people, this level of violent interactivity shown in this game points to an alarmingly disturbing path our society seems to be going down which needs to be addressed. If this type of violence doesn't affect you, well fine (although strong empirical evidence would indicate you aren't entirely being honest...the images our media exposes to people have noticable impacts on each of our lives, subconscious or conscious), but there are many people in this world who are on the "fringe" and are susceptible to these intense images. This game seems to be way over the top, benefits absolutely no one, and adds a level of interactivity to accompany these violent images that is really unprecedented. People who say that the rating of "M" this game receives is a cop-out, seeing in reality the people who wish to gain access to these games will do so no matter what types of legal boundaries are put up. I'm reminded of a promotional poster I saw a few months back for the museum of contemporary art in Chicago that read, "Now that we can do anything, what will we do?" This seems to be the trend in our society, despite the absence of asking ourselves the serious question as to whether doing so is socially responsible, individually moral, socially moral, or individually responsible. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. This game is bringing up some important issues our society will continue to face on an even louder front in the coming years as technology progresses, and in my humble opinion, incredibly blurring the lines of acceptable entertainment.StealthSting

I somewhat disagree with you, tho not entirely. Let me ask you this question, if this game did not come out on the market why would the world be a better place without it? Ask youself another question, why not think even deeper then games? Because quite frankly, there is much more deeper stuff then the attention a certain particular game is getting.

The problem is exactly in the legal boundaries you are talking about......... And it should be held responsible for any and all consequences any form of media might do to any and all society. This is just something that you cannot go against, its human nature a form of expression, we are free to do so and we do it. And since we are anything but "perfect", any form of expression that we have, can ultimately effect someone elses life's. How can somebody possibly stop or control that?

You speak of morality in concerns to this issue and quite frankly I would not use an empathy against said issue. Unless there is a means to turn us all into whatever definition humanity has on perfection, this, if seen as a problem, is something that will never go away, why? Because violence is not a case of morality or its existence a choice that we have made, again it is in our nature.

Studies actually show that violence has been going down with the appearence of violent video games every single generation, in wich violence only rises in it and this was fuel used against Jack for example.

If this game is to be attacked and pulled out, then why not others as well? This is not a simple issue..... It is an issue that needs balance and quite frankly I have seen much more heavy material on other games. Pulling this out might be a start to some, but it definitely wouldn't make me think like that at all.

Thank you for your rebuttal, and to be honest I'm not sure we really disagree that much from what you may have initially believed. I am by no means trying to initiate certain legal boundaries that our government should deem "acceptable" when it comes to violence in our media. Whereas to point out years back after the Columbine tragedy when senators were discussing signing a law on Hollywood to have a "bodycount limit" in movies. At the time as I still do, I thought that idea was senseless and completely missing the point of the issue. It would be nice to see people take the initiative in regards to the moral responisibility among the society they live in, and determine content that is all in good fun as well as content that can have the potential to be seriously damaging. While I understand the very nature of this question is subjective, I cannot personally accept that this particular game is in any manner acting as a benefit towards people who are susceptible to being seriously affected by this content (or otherwise known as people on the "fringe"). Is Manhunt 2 a sign of the apacolypse? No. Is it one small sign of a potentially damaging and immoral path we may be heading towards as a society? I believe so. Manhunt 2 is just a game, I don't mean to make it out to be more than it is, but regardless media in all its forms plays a much larger role in all our lives than we'd like to think. I don't want to get in too much detail, but just take advertising for example. On any given day we may be exposed to hundreds of commercials. We recognize company jingles, logos, and mascots off the top our head without ever realizing we were processing the information in the first place. Many of these companies have even become a mainstream influence in our popular culture. It is something you don't even think about-hardly at all-and just look at the powerful impact it plays on our society and us as individuals. Advertsing is just one very small portion of media, too... I completely agree with you that the issue of our fledging morality goes very very deep in our society. More so than just the media. I just don't think this game serves any positive purpose WHEN you factor in the benefits from making it to the potential damages.

You are correct also in that this issue does pertain to a lot to people's conflicting ideas on basic human nature. As a species we have existed for thousands and thousands of years, and we still come up empty handed with few certainties to hold on to. I'd love to debate about the conflicting ideas of great thinkers such as Socrates, Plato, Nietzche, Kierkagaard, C.S. Lewis, Freud, Jung, Frankl, DeCartes, Rousseau, etc. etc. who have discussed human morality and human nature to great lengths. Frankly, the issue is dense, and will provide us little solid comfort. If history has shown us anything, it is when a governing body loses the values and principles that built it up in the first place that country has fallen because it valued nothing...eh....I can't get into this any deeper, system wars isn't the place...What is morality? Many would argue that we all have a moral compass within ourselves that makes us distinctly human and seperates us from any other life form. I believe we all deep down know right from wrong...

Lastly, I'm glad this game will not affect you to the point where you would decapitate another human being. That at least indicates you have a rational head on your shoulders. However, many people on the "fringe' who might not have engaged in violent behavior beforehand can be affected by material such as manhunt 2. That is just a fact.  From the empirical data I have read from many respected psychological studies these types of entertainment have shown to make suscepible people noticably more aggressive and angry. There is a coerlation to violent behavior and violent media, but coerelation does not equal causation. Simply put, Manhunt is not going to make a sane man a killer, but it could make a potentially instable person instable.

[QUOTE="Michael85"][QUOTE="dirktu"][QUOTE="Michael85"]

In the dark ages, there were public hangings and beheadings that everyone, children included, saw. Miraculously....we survived.

helium_flash

You were there? That makes you at least 500 years old. I'm honoured to meet you man :D.

All jokes aside, I don't understand why the Middle Ages are entering the discussion ;) .

Voilence, to its most extreme, has been around forever. Manhunt 2 isn't the end of the world as some seem to suggest.

Honestly, they need to get the hell over it. In the U.S., we have something called the first ammendment, and if you want the right to complain about anything, then they ("they" being the developers) have the right to give you that "anything" to complain about.

Also, in the US, we have a thing called censorship. I've been to other countries and saw dead bodies on the front page of local newspapers after the tsunami. Manhunt is by no means too extreme. Also, that is why we have the ESRB, so games like this won't get into the hands of kids.

 Although witnessing disturbing pictures on the cover of a newspaper or passively watching them on tv isn't exactly promoting psychological well-being, to actively engage in such interactive virtual violence is an entirely different matter.

In the dark ages, there were public hangings and beheadings that everyone, children included, saw. Miraculously....we survived.

Michael85

If the basic survival of our species is the sole justification for allowing these types of images to be socially acceptable than you are correct, in your own delusional naive sort of way... If you look back on ancient Rome, people were forced to maliciously fight to the death against their fellow man, animals, etc. for the sake of other people's entertainment. Bloodsport has been a perdominant force throughout human existance in nearly every culture, as have many forms of immorality. However, one would hope a level-headed person would not use the barbaric example of the past to justify their destructive ways today. One would hope that we are at a point in our human existance where we can learn from the past, recognize it, and realize the destructiveness it caused societies in the past. One would hope that in our advanced state we could understand the ramifications these senseless images produce, and actively abstain from them. One would hope....