[QUOTE="jackelhunter"]

this is how I see it:

if we don't know our future actions, then it is free will because no one is dictating what we do. God may know our future actions, but we make our own choices in life. we may have our own choices, but God happens to know our future actions, but it is still free will to us. It's strange isn't it? We may shape our own destiny, but our destiny is predetermind because we can't change any of the decisions that we make in the past or future. here's an example:

I don't know whether to get paper or plastic at a supermarket (yeah its a stupid example, but its the first thing I could think of). I eventually choose plastic. I didn't know that I would pick plastic beforehand, so it is free will because I made the choice, but the strange thing is that I can't change that desicion, nor can I change any future decision that I make, I can only decide what to do at that moment and no other time. Do you understand?

Decessus

I think we need to determine what free will is, or this discussion is going to go nowhere.

If you are faced with a situation where X number of possible choices are presented, and all else is equal, would agree that a being with free will could choose one option just as easily as that being could choose another option?

yes, but I don't think you fully understood what I wrote. I think you should re-read it.

[QUOTE="jackelhunter"]

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"]God can't be all three of those things, but nobody ever admits that he isn't one or more of those things. What kind of loving god sends you to eternal suffering if you fail to acknowledge him? It's like the guy that nobody ever talks to at work comes and shoots up the place.Video_Game_King

its actually debatable whether hell is enternal suffering or what it is really like, the Bible is much more complex than many people might think. i'm not to worried about it though.

According to The Inferno (which the church endorsed), it's personalized damnation. Fortune tellers would forever walk with their heads looking backward so they wouldn't see where they were going (God didn't like people predicting the future, which only he was supposed to know). Fatties would stand between two trees they'd never reach :P and perverts always have a flame on them to cleanse them of sexy thoughts. Yea, I don't get that last one.

Dante's Inferno isn't the Bible, he simply added his own interpritation and added to it into Dante's Inferno.

[QUOTE="The_PirateKing"]~-~No, it means he didn't stop you from doing it. Say I'm standing at a gate with a gun. Then you come along and walk through the gate and I let you. Does that mean I had no means to stop you? No, I could of pulled out the gun and bam. I could of easily stopped you but I didn't.~-~ Decessus

We'll deal with one at a time.

Could God, if he wanted to, interfere with our free will?

Yes he could, this question has already been answered before, but he does not because that what he chooses to do.

[QUOTE="jackelhunter"]

I still don't see why free will can't exist if an all-knowing God exists. like I've said before, if an all-knowing God knows our future desicions, but we don't, that means that we still are making our own decisions without outside influence.

Hewkii

I don't see what you mean? I said that we don't know our future actions, but God does.

to me it looks like a burger that was cooked on the outside, but the inside of it was some how liquified and the fat and meat turned into a gooey liquid.

[QUOTE="The_PirateKing"][QUOTE="Decessus"]If that is the case, then God is neither all-power nor all-knowing.Decessus

If I have free will, then I am able to do something that is outside of the control of God. I can make a choice and God cannot do anything about it. This means he is not all-powerful.

If I have free will, then my decisions are not predetermined and cannot be known ahead of when the decision is actually made. This means he is not all-knowing.

this is how I see it:

if we don't know our future actions, then it is free will because no one is dictating what we do. God may know our future actions, but we make our own choices in life. we may have our own choices, but God happens to know our future actions, but it is still free will to us. It's strange isn't it? We may shape our own destiny, but our destiny is predetermind because we can't change any of the decisions that we make in the past or future. here's an example:

I don't know whether to get paper or plastic at a supermarket (yeah its a stupid example, but its the first thing I could think of). I eventually choose plastic. I didn't know that I would pick plastic beforehand, so it is free will because I made the choice, but the strange thing is that I can't change that desicion, nor can I change any future decision that I make, I can only decide what to do at that momentand no other time. Do you understand?

God can't be all three of those things, but nobody ever admits that he isn't one or more of those things. What kind of loving god sends you to eternal suffering if you fail to acknowledge him? It's like the guy that nobody ever talks to at work comes and shoots up the place.Video_Game_King

its actually debatable whether hell is enternal suffering or what it is really like, the Bible is much more complex than many people might think. i'm not to worried about it though.

[QUOTE="jackelhunter"][QUOTE="agilefalcon16"]

[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"] God makes at least as much sense as the big bang (nothing existed, then an explosion that could not possibly have existed created everything. Great theory, huh?)agilefalcon16

Hmm, let me think. Who's word should I trust? Primitive people from thousands of years ago, or a 21st century scientists with state-of-the-art technology? Hmm, I wonder. :roll:

who says God couldn't have used the big bangas the methodto create the universe? Genesis isn't trying to teach scientific facts.

Actually, EVIDENCE (or lack thereof, in this case) says God couldn't have used big bangs to create the universe.

there isn't any proof that God could not have used the big bag to create the universe. oh, and what is this "proof" you speak of?

[QUOTE="jackelhunter"]

technically you're right, but if God had no influence on our desicion then how is it not free will?

Decessus

Well, the point wasn't to show that free will can't exist if God exists. The point was to show that free will can't exist if an all-knowing God exists.

I still don't see why free will can't exist if an all-knowing God exists. like I've said before, if an all-knowing God knows our future desicions, but we don't, that means that we still are making our own decisions without outside influence.

[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"] God makes at least as much sense as the big bang (nothing existed, then an explosion that could not possibly have existed created everything. Great theory, huh?)agilefalcon16

Hmm, let me think. Who's word should I trust? Primitive people from thousands of years ago, or a 21st century scientists with state-of-the-art technology? Hmm, I wonder. :roll:

who says God couldn't have used the big bangas the methodto create the universe? Genesis isn't trying to teach scientific facts.