Resident Evil 5 Demo Haunting the Marketplace

I have actually played the demo, and agree with him. I do not see a problem with the control scheme at all. I got it right away and never had a problem with it. The inventory system had me confused for a bit, but after I figured out you could use the D-Pad, it made it alot better. Re5 is a different kind of game, and I think you have to think differently when you play it.

jks22112

It's fine if you personally liked the control scheme. To each their own. Regardless, this whole notion of RE5 being "a different kind of game" as an excuse for the omission of certain standard control options strikes me as a weak counterargument. What you are basically asserting is that any design flaw or omission can now be categorized as "different."

For example, if a game has a lousy camera that I have to constantly baby sit, I could just as easily claim that's a design choice to let me control the cinematic tone of the game and I merely need to be in a different mindset to play it. I mean, if we're going to make concessions for RE5 then realistically, there are a lot of other games that should get a free pass as well because they too are "different."

My question to you is what harm in there is allowing Chris full analog movement? Why saddle him with a run button that is completely extraneous? Why not allow him to move while shooting or at the very least, move while holding the knife?

Those few added changes would make RE5 play so much better.

I don't think the fact that RE5 has the same layout as RE4 will affect its gameplay in any way. After all, RE4 had the layout of older RE games with minor tweaks on the camera. Shooting while running will make the game play less challenging imo so I'm not the least bothered by that.gamingqueen

So rather than tweak the AI or make better-designed levels, you'd rather have the player's movement gimped to increase the challenge?

That just comes off as lazy programming to me personally.

Ok fair enough about RE5. Still about the controls I do not feel that they are just old, that they are no longer acceptable. The controls are a design choice. You guys are acting like when RE4 came out TPS with dual analog control didn't exist, there were a TON of them. Why is it that when RE4 came out no one complained, things haven't changed since Gears style controls those same controls have been around for many many many years. Stop acting like things have evolved, RE4 came out and chose to have a different control scheme from the norm and it worked.

Its like you guys got used to one scheme that when someone dares to change it you are out of your comfort zone. So what if you cant dodge the attack, thats the damn point, reposition, use the environment to your advantage, make sure when you shoot you hit the specific points to slow the enemies down. Its not a design flaw, if it was then RE4 would have issues with the combat, and it doesn't. Pretend RE4 never came out, and it came out right now, I believe it would still get the same praise it got back then.

(btw the reason I am saying this is cause when you say that the controls are out dated or flawed it makes it sound like the only reason the controls worked for RE4 is cause it came out 4 years ago, which I think is total BS. If it doesn't work for RE5 then its cause of the way RE5 is designed, not cause the controls should never be used again.)

dvader654

When RE4 came out, there were many people who complained about not being able to shoot while moving and the omission of strafing. I think most of us were simply able to overlook those minor quibbles because the game looked and played so well. I also think you have to consider that the RE fan base had been wrestling with some pretty stiff combat for many years and while the controls in RE4 weren't perfect, they were light years ahead of anything else in the RE franchise.

I also think it's important to note that RE4 redefined the Third Person Shooter by tightening up the camera over the shoulder. Up until then, most TPS gave you pretty loose control over an avatar, which always felt a tad disconnected. Other developers took that concept and ran with it, including Epic and the developers of Dead Space, which is why the bar has been continually raised four years after RE4 was originally released. RE4 was an awesome contribution to the TPS construct and I feel disappointed by Capcom's unwillingness to further polish and evolve their own innovation.

And no, I don't think if RE4 were released today it would be treated nearly as well by gamers and critics. Placing aside the whole chicken and egg issue, games like Gears and Dead Space would make RE4's controls seem outdated and a step back in some regards.

Reading your last sentence, it occurred to me that what this argument is really about for you is preserving the legacy of RE4. You seem to think a slight on RE5's controls is a slander against RE4, a game you personally feel is "perfect". You honestly think that admitting RE4 could have benefited from strafing or full analog movement besmirches its legacy, which it doesn't. RE4 was an innovative, brilliant action game that has aged very well but at the same time it's minor flaws are now starting to look like seeping, open wounds when transposed onto RE5.

Again, I think you need to play the RE5 demo and leave RE4 entirely out of the picture. RE4's legacy is safe and secure. RE5 on the other hand may be one of the most polarizing and disappointing games of 2009.

Regarding the controls, I don't understand why are people acting as if there weren't any third-person shooters before Gears. There were plenty and some of them were a lot better than Gears - Max Payne, Mafia, James Bond games, Syphon Filter just to name a few. Resident Evil 4's controls were awkward and required adjusting to even back in 2005. The game was still stellar because it worked within the context of its design. That's no excuse, though, the controls do need work and it's ridiculous that Capcom seemingly didn't want to move an inch and basically kept the same exact (awkward) control scheme. The thing is, they needed work back in 2005 and they probably need work even moreso today. However, I don't hold control schemes crucial at all which is why I am perfectly fine with playing FPSs on consoles, why I could enjoy Resident Evil 4's brilliant design and why I knew the Wii wouldn't bring anything new to the table in regards to how we play games. In my opinion, controls only need not to be cumbersome, everything else is a bonus. Controls mean nothing if the actual game design is not there - once again the Wii being a prime example.UpInFlames

Of course you are correct about third person shooters predating Gears and RE4 but as I wrote in my other post, I think RE4 tightened up the camera and feel of the TPS in a way that has been emulated ever since. Even GTAIV borrows the over-the-shoulder view when you aim your weapons, and it works well.

Since then others have taken this concept and expanded upon it, which is why I was surprised to find out that RE5 plays so stiffly compared to something like Dead Space. Like you stated, there is no reason for Capcom to have completely ignored the need for even small alterations to the basic game play.

And sadly, even as I sit here a lifelong RE fan, I can state with absolute sincerity that the controls in RE5 do feel cumbersome. I'm sure if I play long enough the controls will "click" and I'm sure the game is worth an entire play through but I can't help at being immensely disappointed at how much better this game could be with a few minimal adjustments.

Of course you are correct about third person shooters predating Gears and RE4 but as I wrote in my other post, I think RE4 tightened up the camera and feel of the TPS in a way that has been emulated ever since. Even GTAIV borrows the over-the-shoulder view when you aim your weapons, and it works well.

Since then others have taken this concept and expanded upon it, which is why I was surprised to find out that RE5 plays so stiffly compared to something like Dead Space. Like you stated, there is no reason for Capcom to have completely ignored the need for even small alterations to the basic game play.

Grammaton-Cleric

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Of course you are correct about third person shooters predating Gears and RE4 but as I wrote in my other post, I think RE4 tightened up the camera and feel of the TPS in a way that has been emulated ever since. Even GTAIV borrows the over-the-shoulder view when you aim your weapons, and it works well.

Since then others have taken this concept and expanded upon it, which is why I was surprised to find out that RE5 plays so stiffly compared to something like Dead Space. Like you stated, there is no reason for Capcom to have completely ignored the need for even small alterations to the basic game play.

Mash_Affect

Yes, you are correct. I completely forgot Splinter Cell.

Still, to be fair, I think RE4 was the game that got other developers using that perspective.

Regardless, your point is a fair one.

[QUOTE="sukraj"]I want it on psn.Canvas_Of_Flesh

LOL LIE DETECTOR, silly boy, xbox users don't pay for their demos, what gave you that silly idea

[QUOTE="jks22112"]

I have actually played the demo, and agree with him. I do not see a problem with the control scheme at all. I got it right away and never had a problem with it. The inventory system had me confused for a bit, but after I figured out you could use the D-Pad, it made it alot better. Re5 is a different kind of game, and I think you have to think differently when you play it.

Grammaton-Cleric

It's fine if you personally liked the control scheme. To each their own. Regardless, this whole notion of RE5 being "a different kind of game" as an excuse for the omission of certain standard control options strikes me as a weak counterargument. What you are basically asserting is that any design flaw or omission can now be categorized as "different."

For example, if a game has a lousy camera that I have to constantly baby sit, I could just as easily claim that's a design choice to let me control the cinematic tone of the game and I merely need to be in a different mindset to play it. I mean, if we're going to make concessions for RE5 then realistically, there are a lot of other games that should get a free pass as well because they too are "different."

My question to you is what harm in there is allowing Chris full analog movement? Why saddle him with a run button that is completely extraneous? Why not allow him to move while shooting or at the very least, move while holding the knife?

Those few added changes would make RE5 play so much better.

True it is partly about that but its not that I think the game is perfect. Its that I think changing the controls of RE4 into a move and shoot would destroy the style of combat that game has and make it much less of a game. That is what I am saying, i think making you stop and shoot played a HUGE part in making RE4 what it was.

dvader654

I think we should just wait two more days and try out the demo ourselves. Like Grammaton said, you haven't played the demo so why even bother arguing? :P But the assertion that nothing has changed is also false since they HAVE changed the controls and now aiming is done using the right analog stick. I played the first three chapters of RE4 yesterday and the controls still worked.

I wonder if the demo goes live at midnight on Monday. Sony usually does their PS store update in the evening, but this demo isn't hitting the same day as the regular update so maybe we could be able to download it in 36 hours! :D

EDIT: Damn, you already decided to stop arguing. Tip: Dont try to make an omlette and type up a response at the same time!

Ok for now even though I am arguing with you guys about the pros and cons of that controls scheme I will take your word that something is off about RE5 controls. So I want to ask about them. Is the dual analog setup they got worthless? Which scheme are you using? dvader654

I was wondering the same thing, and I dont feel like going through a year old previews to find out.

So we know that the aiming is now done using the Right Analog stick. Do you still have hold R1 to get into Aim mode? If so, then is X still used to shoot?

Ok for now even though I am arguing with you guys about the pros and cons of that controls scheme I will take your word that something is off about RE5 controls. So I want to ask about them. Is the dual analog setup they got worthless? Which scheme are you using? dvader654

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="jks22112"]

I have actually played the demo, and agree with him. I do not see a problem with the control scheme at all. I got it right away and never had a problem with it. The inventory system had me confused for a bit, but after I figured out you could use the D-Pad, it made it alot better. Re5 is a different kind of game, and I think you have to think differently when you play it.

jks22112

It's fine if you personally liked the control scheme. To each their own. Regardless, this whole notion of RE5 being "a different kind of game" as an excuse for the omission of certain standard control options strikes me as a weak counterargument. What you are basically asserting is that any design flaw or omission can now be categorized as "different."

For example, if a game has a lousy camera that I have to constantly baby sit, I could just as easily claim that's a design choice to let me control the cinematic tone of the game and I merely need to be in a different mindset to play it. I mean, if we're going to make concessions for RE5 then realistically, there are a lot of other games that should get a free pass as well because they too are "different."

My question to you is what harm in there is allowing Chris full analog movement? Why saddle him with a run button that is completely extraneous? Why not allow him to move while shooting or at the very least, move while holding the knife?

Those few added changes would make RE5 play so much better.

The movement is still very tank-like and clumsy and none of the various control options solves this problem. Simply adding full analog support would have gone a long way to solving the control issues. There was no logical reason to omit full analog movement.

And the knife sucks; you must carefully measure every swing since you cannot even move with the damn thing drawn. Is having to come to a dead stop everytime you use the knife cumbersome? Yes, it is.

Everything about the controls in RE5 are stilted, clunky and cumbersome. If that was the intention then bravo Capcom.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

[QUOTE="dvader654"]Ok for now even though I am arguing with you guys about the pros and cons of that controls scheme I will take your word that something is off about RE5 controls. So I want to ask about them. Is the dual analog setup they got worthless? Which scheme are you using? dvader654

I was wondering the same thing, and I dont feel like going through a year old previews to find out.

So we know that the aiming is now done using the Right Analog stick. Do you still have hold R1 to get into Aim mode? If so, then is X still used to shoot?

Yes R1 is still to aim and X to shoot. Square is run.

Wow most of those sound like a complete disaster of a scheme. Definetly A all the way for me. dvader654

Well I am not a big fan of two sticks, I like one stick with face buttons. But if they were going to go for dual analog controls they should at least have done them right. Its not even a question about moving and shooting, they could still restrict that without have a mess of a scheme with a run button totally out of place.

dvader654

Personally, I enjoyed the heck out of the demo. It was everything I wanted it to be and more. If that means I enjoy clunky, 2004 control schemes then so be it.Dutch_Mix

So do you feel the controls are optimal? I enjoyed the demo too but the controls killed some of my enjoyment. It's not a bad game by any stretch and obviously it has a lot going for it but do you really feel it plays all that well?

[QUOTE="dvader654"] Well I dont know enough about the inventory except that its real time, Dead Space paused the game right?Skylock00

I think the real time inventory system in RE5 is a bad idea because the controls don't mesh well with having to shuffle through items and weapons on the go. It worked in Dead Space because the game had controls that gave you superior mobility where by contrast it comes off as a hassle in RE5 due to the tank controls.

I'm also going on record now and state that I think forcing the CPU Sheeva character in the one player mode was a mistake. Between her consumption of ammo and her inability to keep herself alive, I think I'm going to be seeing the "Game Over" screen much more frequently.

You can't move while using your inventory in RE. It's a little complicated for something that will be done during gameplay. Maybe a simple list would have been easier?

But there is a quick item change using the d pad. For whatever reason, though the diagonals in the square of your inventory don't go to it. So up takes out the up item, down takes out down, and I'm sure you can figure it out. People need to keep in mind though, those parts featured in the demo will probably be rare. There won't be many times where there are enemies EVERYWHERE and nowhere to go, especially like in the Shanty Town level. Most the time in RE4 the area featured 4 or 5 bad guys, maybe more. Meaning, yes, using the inventory system during Shanty town was hard. But there won't be many more parts like that. Probably not, anyway.

What I do wonder though is, will the inventory always be the same size? Meaning I will only be able to hold 9 items the whole game? That'd be tough, especially after I ajusted to RE4's blocks system.

My only big complaint I have though is Co-Op bullet sharing. There is no option to give some, even though I had like 40 bullets and my friend had none (I'm not an ammo hog! I swear) I could only give her none or all. That NEEDS to be fixed.

You can't move while using your inventory in RE. It's a little complicated for something that will be done during gameplay. Maybe a simple list would have been easier?

But there is a quick item change using the d pad. For whatever reason, though the diagonals in the square of your inventory don't go to it. So up takes out the up item, down takes out down, and I'm sure you can figure it out. People need to keep in mind though, those parts featured in the demo will probably be rare. There won't be many times where there are enemies EVERYWHERE and nowhere to go, especially like in the Shanty Town level. Most the time in RE4 the area featured 4 or 5 bad guys, maybe more. Meaning, yes, using the inventory system during Shanty town was hard. But there won't be many more parts like that. Probably not, anyway.

jks22112

[QUOTE="Dutch_Mix"]Personally, I enjoyed the heck out of the demo. It was everything I wanted it to be and more. If that means I enjoy clunky, 2004 control schemes then so be it.Grammaton-Cleric

So do you feel the controls are optimal? I enjoyed the demo too but the controls killed some of my enjoyment. It's not a bad game by any stretch and obviously it has a lot going for it but do you really feel it plays all that well?

Honestly? Yeah, the only complaint I have is that I miss the attache case. I loved arranging my weapons, ammo, and healing potions in RE4. But it's not like the new inventory scheme is terrible. It's just different.

I haven't played Dead Space (It sounds fantastic - but I just don't have the time or money right now). In fact, the only 3rd person shooter I've played extensively since RE4 was Gears of War. That being said, I'm not sure why there's such an uproar over the controls. RE4 was a masterpiece, the gameplay of RE5 appears to mirror RE4 perfectly, so what's the problem? Perhaps, I'm stuck in 2005, or maybe I just can't recognize this apparently faulty control scheme as you and Skylock can.

Perhaps, I'm stuck in 2005, or maybe I just can't recognize this apparently faulty control scheme as you and Skylock can.Dutch_Mix

I wonder if the bad reception of the demo is enough for Capcom to delay the game and add that in.

I also wonder why, if it's such a big deal, the press didnt make a big fuss over it. The previews were really positive and it won numerous E3 Best Of Show awards. I really didn't expect this at all.

Of course you are correct about third person shooters predating Gears and RE4 but as I wrote in my other post, I think RE4 tightened up the camera and feel of the TPS in a way that has been emulated ever since. Even GTAIV borrows the over-the-shoulder view when you aim your weapons, and it works well.Grammaton-Cleric

The over-the-shoulder aiming and the cover system found in Grand Theft Auto IV are natural evolutions of the systems Rockstar North implemented in Manhunt (which were hinted at even in San Andreas). I agree that Resident Evil 4 probably popularized the over-the-shoulder view (as Gears of War did the cover system), but Rockstar North did both long before Capcom and Epic. Also, as noted, games like Splinter Cell and Ghost Recon did the over-the-shoulder view about the same time Manhunt did.

Well this is interesting. They have a new OXM video on Xbox live. It features a short interview with somebody from Capcom about RE5, and he says you can now aim and move at the same time. Maybe this was something that just didn't make it into the demo? Or maybe he's just making stuff up?jks22112

I've just played the demo and my impressions are generally positive. First off, the hot topic - controls. I think they are more intuitive than Resident Evil 4. You still can't move and shoot which sucks, but they implemented dual analog movement which makes a world of difference, in my opinion. It's just more natural. Also, the movement and turning seems a lot faster. It's still tank controls, but a more mobile tank. The inventory system is a failure and the omission of a reload button makes me post a thousand facepalm pics. Sheva didn't die on me, she kept collecting loot (sparing me the nuisance of having to press X for every single item), feeding me ammo, healing me up and helping out in a pinch. She's also smokin' hot which helps boost my morale.

The game looks fantastic even in SD. The biggest problem I suppose is the overwhelming sense of familiarity. Almost everything is the same just with a new skin. The ganados, the chainsaw guy, the setpieces...please Capcom, no black midget Napoleon guy. Looking forward to playing the demo in co-op. Overall, I like it - hell, I like it a lot more than I did the Dead Space demo.

Since I don't feel like reading the last 11 pages of this thread can anyone summarize what the complaints regarding the controls are? I played the demo and the controls didn't seem bad to me. I think I found it a little bit awkward to turn while running, but it was hardly anything gamebreaking.

Well this is interesting. They have a new OXM video on Xbox live. It features a short interview with somebody from Capcom about RE5, and he says you can now aim and move at the same time. Maybe this was something that just didn't make it into the demo? Or maybe he's just making stuff up?jks22112

hmm... Link?

can anyone verify this?