Abortion????

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Do you even know what an embryo is? It is the fertilization of an EGG and SPERM, each with 23 chromosomes. 23+23 = 46

Erasorn

I still don't see how killing sperm is less murder then killing embryos. Everyone one of them sperms could've turned into a cute little embryo.

If somebody is born with less (or more) chromosomes than 46 that does not make them less of a human because they have a genetic disorder. However, sperm cells do not have the potential to grow into a distinct human being by themselves. Sperms have 23 chromosomes by default, whereas people with genetic disorders were screwed over during meiosis.

[QUOTE="Erasorn"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Do you even know what an embryo is? It is the fertilization of an EGG and SPERM, each with 23 chromosomes. 23+23 = 46

Choga

I still don't see how killing sperm is less murder then killing embryos. Everyone one of them sperms could've turned into a cute little embryo.

If somebody is born with less (or more) chromosomes than 46 that does not make them less of a human because they have a genetic disorder. However, sperm cells do not have the potential to grow into a distinct human being by themselves. Sperms have 23 chromosomes by default, whereas people with genetic disorders were screwed over during meiosis.

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Medicine is on my side. No matter what you believe, sentience is NOT one of the defining characteristics of life. The defining characteristics of life are: Reproduction, Respiration, Regulation, Growth and Repair, Transport, Excretion, Nutrition, and Metabolism A fetus possesses all of these.

quiglythegreat

A fetus does have all those. Fetuses develop sperm cells/eg cells early on. They obtain oxygen through the mother's placenta. Fetuses have regularion, because waste gets rid of in the embryotic fluid. The fetus is constantly growing, and obviously repairing its dead cells. Microscopic substances are transported between the cells of the fetus. The fetus excretes its waste into the embryotic fluid. The fetus receives nutrients from the mother. And it has a metabolism (the complete set of chemical reactions that occurs in living cells).

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="Erasorn"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Do you even know what an embryo is? It is the fertilization of an EGG and SPERM, each with 23 chromosomes. 23+23 = 46

quiglythegreat

I still don't see how killing sperm is less murder then killing embryos. Everyone one of them sperms could've turned into a cute little embryo.

If somebody is born with less (or more) chromosomes than 46 that does not make them less of a human because they have a genetic disorder. However, sperm cells do not have the potential to grow into a distinct human being by themselves. Sperms have 23 chromosomes by default, whereas people with genetic disorders were screwed over during meiosis.

Chromosome count is a distinct human trait.

hromosome count is a distinct human trait.

Choga

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Medicine is on my side. No matter what you believe, sentience is NOT one of the defining characteristics of life. The defining characteristics of life are: Reproduction, Respiration, Regulation, Growth and Repair, Transport, Excretion, Nutrition, and Metabolism A fetus possesses all of these.

Choga

A fetus does have all those. Fetuses develop sperm cells/eg cells early on. They obtain oxygen through the mother's placenta. Fetuses have regularion, because waste gets rid of in the embryotic fluid. The fetus is constantly growing, and obviously repairing its dead cells. Microscopic substances are transported between the cells of the fetus. The fetus excretes its waste into the embryotic fluid. The fetus receives nutrients from the mother. And it has a metabolism (the complete set of chemical reactions that occurs in living cells).

[QUOTE="Choga"]

hromosome count is a distinct human trait.

quiglythegreat

Like I saide, people with genetic disorders are human because they developed as humans. They got screwed over during meiosis and now they have an irregular amount of chromosomes. Sperm cells on the other hand are not human because they were never intended to have 46 chromosomes, which the individual with down symdrome was. Your right, humans are not JUST multicellular organisms who happen to have 46 chromosomes in their cells. I was using that definition as a way to differentiate between sperm cells and embryos.

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Medicine is on my side. No matter what you believe, sentience is NOT one of the defining characteristics of life. The defining characteristics of life are: Reproduction, Respiration, Regulation, Growth and Repair, Transport, Excretion, Nutrition, and Metabolism A fetus possesses all of these.

quiglythegreat

A fetus does have all those. Fetuses develop sperm cells/eg cells early on. They obtain oxygen through the mother's placenta. Fetuses have regularion, because waste gets rid of in the embryotic fluid. The fetus is constantly growing, and obviously repairing its dead cells. Microscopic substances are transported between the cells of the fetus. The fetus excretes its waste into the embryotic fluid. The fetus receives nutrients from the mother. And it has a metabolism (the complete set of chemical reactions that occurs in living cells).

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

hromosome count is a distinct human trait.

Choga

Like I saide, people with genetic disorders are human because they developed as humans. They got screwed over during meiosis and now they have an irregular amount of chromosomes. Sperm cells on the other hand are not human because they were never intended to have 46 chromosomes, which the individual with down symdrome was. Your right, humans are not JUST multicellular organisms who happen to have 46 chromosomes in their cells. I was using that definition as a way to differentiate between sperm cells and embryos.

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

hromosome count is a distinct human trait.

quiglythegreat

Like I saide, people with genetic disorders are human because they developed as humans. They got screwed over during meiosis and now they have an irregular amount of chromosomes. Sperm cells on the other hand are not human because they were never intended to have 46 chromosomes, which the individual with down symdrome was. Your right, humans are not JUST multicellular organisms who happen to have 46 chromosomes in their cells. I was using that definition as a way to differentiate between sperm cells and embryos.

Your right I cant. 46 chromosomes together with other human characteristics make human beings.

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

Choga

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

quiglythegreat

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

Your right I cant. 46 chromosomes together with other human characteristics make human beings.

Choga

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

Choga

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Your right I cant. 46 chromosomes together with other human characteristics make human beings.

quiglythegreat

I would not have brought it up that many times if people had not been challenging my statement.

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

Erasorn

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

Without wolves having a predatory presence in their natural habitats, gradual deforestation will occur. Wolves eat deer/moose, which in turn eat saplings. Did you know that Yellostone National park has less trees now because of the wolf genocide that occured in the early 20th century? Nature has a funny way of blancing itself out.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

Choga

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

[QUOTE="Erasorn"][QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

Choga

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

Without wolves having a predatory presence in their natural habitats, then gradual deforestation will occur. Wolves in deer/moose, which in turn eat saplings. Did you know that Yellostone National park has less trees now because of the wolf genocide that occured in the early 20th century? Nature has a funny way of blancing itself out.

I'm for abortion.

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

quiglythegreat

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

Oh nevermind, I thought Sentience was the same as Sapience. And even if sentience is a defining characteristic of life, fetuses are sentient, since they have sensory organs.

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="Erasorn"][QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Well my good sir, by that logic we can also say 5 year-olds are sub-human for whatever reasons we can come up with.

Erasorn

Then by your logic, the genocide of wolves is fine because they are not "meaningful life".

Without wolves having a predatory presence in their natural habitats, then gradual deforestation will occur. Wolves in deer/moose, which in turn eat saplings. Did you know that Yellostone National park has less trees now because of the wolf genocide that occured in the early 20th century? Nature has a funny way of blancing itself out.

That (among other things) is why wolves are my favorite animals :D

Yeah, I believe a woman owns here body.yoshi-lnex

So she owns the body that's getting aborted?>_>

I am pro-Life all the way. Now i'm going to leave before i'm labeled a primitivesexist inconsiderate pig by the far right and the feminists. I have my reasons, most not religious. I'm especially pissed, that only the woman gets a say in the matter. However, there is a movement to get Fathers just as much rights when it comes to abortion. Hopefully that goes through.Tolwan

Exactly. The father deserves as much say in it as the woman.

Oh nevermind, I thought Sentience was the same as Sapience. And even if sentience is a defining characteristic of life, fetuses are sentient, since they have sensory organs.

Choga

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]I am pro-Life all the way. Now i'm going to leave before i'm labeled a primitivesexist inconsiderate pig by the far right and the feminists. I have my reasons, most not religious. I'm especially pissed, that only the woman gets a say in the matter. However, there is a movement to get Fathers just as much rights when it comes to abortion. Hopefully that goes through.Silver_Dragon17

Exactly. The father deserves as much say in it as the woman.

So you think masturbation is murder too, great! That's what I've been saying all this time. :D

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Oh nevermind, I thought Sentience was the same as Sapience. And even if sentience is a defining characteristic of life, fetuses are sentient, since they have sensory organs.

quiglythegreat

Not much of an arguement since I shut it down in the post you just quoted.

So you think masturbation is murder too, great! That's what I've been saying all this time. :D
LouieV13

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Oh nevermind, I thought Sentience was the same as Sapience. And even if sentience is a defining characteristic of life, fetuses are sentient, since they have sensory organs.

Choga

Not much of an arguement since I shut it down in the post you just quoted.

[QUOTE="LouieV13"] So you think masturbation is murder too, great! That's what I've been saying all this time. :D
Shpongle314

I'm pro-choice, but only in certain situations. People should be able to abort a child before a certain stage of development. If the victim is raped, they should have the choice to abort or not.

However, I find it outrageous that people protest outside of these clinics.

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Oh nevermind, I thought Sentience was the same as Sapience. And even if sentience is a defining characteristic of life, fetuses are sentient, since they have sensory organs.

quiglythegreat

Not much of an arguement since I shut it down in the post you just quoted.

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. YOU don;t understand the word.

I'm pro-choice, but only in certain situations. People should be able to abort a child before a certain stage of development. If the victim is raped, they should have the choice to abort or not.

However, I find it outrageous that people protest outside of these clinics.

Abigorus

Why not put the child up for adoption, or just dropping it off at some woman's house in a picnic basket for crying out loud? Nobody dies, and the whole "Don't want a kid because of rape" thing is sorted out.

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. YOU don;t understand the word.

Choga

I wouldn't want to be a son of a rapist.

Edit: Forgot to quote, this was directed to Silver Dragon17.

[QUOTE="Shpongle314"][QUOTE="LouieV13"] So you think masturbation is murder too, great! That's what I've been saying all this time. :D
LouieV13

[QUOTE="Abigorus"]

I'm pro-choice, but only in certain situations. People should be able to abort a child before a certain stage of development. If the victim is raped, they should have the choice to abort or not.

However, I find it outrageous that people protest outside of these clinics.

Silver_Dragon17

Why not put the child up for adoption, or just dropping it off at some woman's house in a picnic basket for crying out loud? Nobody dies, and the whole "Don't want a kid because of rape" thing is sorted out.

Hell yeah. I can tell you, in any position, as the child i would choose life. I'd choose the pissiest, poorest life over no life. Its not like the child moves on to another body if you abort it. No, it DIES, and that being never gets a chance at life ever again.

I've seen orphanage raised children turn out better than a lot of people in homes. Everyone deserves a shot, and i dont think any adult should have the right to play the role of divine judge of the worthiness of a life. (But until Abortion is abolished, if it ever is, i feel the Father should have as much say as the mother).

On a personal level, though i will always be pro-life, i would still be a bit happier if the Father got an equal say. Atleast then, if i should ever end up in said situation, i could actually choose to raise the child myself and stopthe abortion.

I wouldn't want to be a son of a rapist.

Edit: Forgot to quote, this was directed to Silver Dragon17.

Abigorus

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Just don't tell the kid or the adopting parents and the kid never has to know.

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. YOU don;t understand the word.

quiglythegreat

Sapience* - get it right. Sentience DOES NOT include the faculty of selfawareness. One does not HAVE to perceive in order to be sentient. It refers to the ability to feel OR perceive.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Abigorus"]

I'm pro-choice, but only in certain situations. People should be able to abort a child before a certain stage of development. If the victim is raped, they should have the choice to abort or not.

However, I find it outrageous that people protest outside of these clinics.

Tolwan

Why not put the child up for adoption, or just dropping it off at some woman's house in a picnic basket for crying out loud? Nobody dies, and the whole "Don't want a kid because of rape" thing is sorted out.

Hell yeah. I can tell you, in any position, as the child i would choose life. I'd choose the pissiest, poorest life over no life. Its not like the child moves on to another body if you abort it. No, it DIES, and that being never gets a chance at life ever again.

I've seen orphanage raised children turn out better than a lot of people in homes. Everyone deserves a shot, and i dont think any adult should have the right to play the role of divince judge of the worthiness of a life. (But until Abortion is abolished, if it ever is, i feel the Father should have as much say as the mother).

On a personal level, though i will always be pro-life, i would still be a bit happier if the Father got an equal say. Atleast then, if i should ever end up in said situation, i could actually choose to raise the child myself and stopthe abortion.

That's exactly how I feel. Since it's legal (For now) let the father have a say in it.

Oh, and the parents also should look at a sonogram of the kid before they do it.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. YOU don;t understand the word.

Choga

Sapience* - get it right. Sentience DOES NOT include the faculty of selfawareness. One does not HAVE to perceive in order to be sentient. It refers to the ability to feel OR perceive.

[QUOTE="Abigorus"]

I wouldn't want to be a son of a rapist.

Edit: Forgot to quote, this was directed to Silver Dragon17.

Silver_Dragon17

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Just don't tell the kid or the adopting parents and the kid never has to know.

Not if she aborts it when it's just a heap of cells. But, that's where opinions start flowing, yes?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Abigorus"]

I wouldn't want to be a son of a rapist.

Edit: Forgot to quote, this was directed to Silver Dragon17.

Abigorus

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Just don't tell the kid or the adopting parents and the kid never has to know.

Not if she aborts it when it's just a heap of cells. But, that's where opinions start flowing, yes?

The cells become human in a matter of months.