Abortion????

The cells become human in a matter of months.

Silver_Dragon17

[QUOTE="Abigorus"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Abigorus"]

I wouldn't want to be a son of a rapist.

Edit: Forgot to quote, this was directed to Silver Dragon17.

Silver_Dragon17

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Just don't tell the kid or the adopting parents and the kid never has to know.

Not if she aborts it when it's just a heap of cells. But, that's where opinions start flowing, yes?

The cells become human in a matter of months.

This debate can't really go further. I'm pro-choice either way. Peace.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

The cells become human in a matter of months.

quiglythegreat

And when you abort them, you end the life of a child to be.

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Silver_Dragon17

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs, the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. YOU don;t understand the word.

quiglythegreat

Sapience* - get it right. Sentience DOES NOT include the faculty of selfawareness. One does not HAVE to perceive in order to be sentient. It refers to the ability to feel OR perceive.

Sentient - 1) having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.

2) characterized by sensation and consciousness.

For something to have the power of perception by the senses, it needs sensory organs :D

For something to have sensation, it needs sensory organs :D

This debate can't really go further. I'm pro-choice either way. Peace.

Abigorus

Oh, it can go a helluva lot further (this isn't my first abortion argument) but if you want to leave, I understand.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

The cells become human in a matter of months.

Silver_Dragon17

And when you abort them, you end the life of a child to be.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

The cells become human in a matter of months.

Silver_Dragon17

And when you abort them, you end the life of a child to be.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

CptJSparrow

And that makes a difference, how? Why don't we go ahead and kill people in their sleep, because they won't be aware of it.

Oh wait. . .

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Silver_Dragon17

And that makes a difference, how? Why don't we go ahead and kill people in their sleep, because they won't be aware of it.

Oh wait. . .

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

The cells become human in a matter of months.

quiglythegreat

And when you abort them, you end the life of a child to be.

No it doesn't.:|

A sperm cell or an egg, if left alone, will just sit around for a while and die. No big deal. But a fertilized egg will grow and become a human being. Big deal.

Sentient - 1) having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.

2) characterized by sensation and consciousness.

For something to have the power of perception by the senses, it needs sensory organs :D

For something to have sensation, it needs sensory organs :D

Choga

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

CptJSparrow

And that makes a difference, how? Why don't we go ahead and kill people in their sleep, because they won't be aware of it.

Oh wait. . .

And the unborn baby also had a chance of live. . . .

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

The cells become human in a matter of months.

Silver_Dragon17

And when you abort them, you end the life of a child to be.

No it doesn't.:|

A sperm cell or an egg, if left alone, will just sit around for a while and die. No big deal. But a fertilized egg will grow and become a human being. Big deal.

No it doesn't.:|

A sperm cell or an egg, if left alone, will just sit around for a while and die. No big deal. But a fertilized egg will grow and become a human being. Big deal.

Silver_Dragon17

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Silver_Dragon17

And that makes a difference, how? Why don't we go ahead and kill people in their sleep, because they won't be aware of it.

Oh wait. . .

And the unborn baby also had a chance of live. . . .

Clearly in favor of it. The woman has the right to choose. The ones saying that this is a murder always make me laugh. They really don t know of what they talking about...

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Sentient - 1) having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.

2) characterized by sensation and consciousness.

For something to have the power of perception by the senses, it needs sensory organs :D

For something to have sensation, it needs sensory organs :D

quiglythegreat

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

It has the potential to one day become a human being if fertilization occurs.:| The point is, they're a possible genetic combination and thus a possible human being, which will never be born. This is the equivalent of abortion.CptJSparrow

No it isn't.

A sperm cell has potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

An egg has the potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

A sperm cell combined with an egg is guaranteed to become a human

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

Choga

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

CptJSparrow

And that makes a difference, how? Why don't we go ahead and kill people in their sleep, because they won't be aware of it.

Oh wait. . .

And the unborn baby also had a chance of live. . . .

My original statement was that I don't want to die before I have a chance to live. How does that contradict me saying that an unborn baby has a chance to live?

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] It has the potential to one day become a human being if fertilization occurs.:| The point is, they're a possible genetic combination and thus a possible human being, which will never be born. This is the equivalent of abortion.Silver_Dragon17

No it isn't.

A sperm cell has potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

An egg has the potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

A sperm cell combined with an egg is guaranteed to become a human

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

quiglythegreat

To be sentient, something must perceive by the senses. To do so, something must posses sensory organs.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

I wouldn't want to die before I had a chance to live.:|

Silver_Dragon17

And that makes a difference, how? Why don't we go ahead and kill people in their sleep, because they won't be aware of it.

Oh wait. . .

And the unborn baby also had a chance of live. . . .

My original statement was that I don't want to die before I have a chance to live. How does that contradict me saying that an unborn baby has a chance to live?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] It has the potential to one day become a human being if fertilization occurs.:| The point is, they're a possible genetic combination and thus a possible human being, which will never be born. This is the equivalent of abortion.CptJSparrow

No it isn't.

A sperm cell has potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

An egg has the potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

A sperm cell combined with an egg is guaranteed to become a human

A miscarriage is sad, but natural.

I know your point, but it's not true. A sperm will never become a human unless it fertalizes an egg that will also never become a human unless it is fertilized. They have the potential, but they are not human, nor will they be unless they mix for nine months, so when a sperm cell or egg dies it is nature, not murder.

Because you're dying as an unborn baby. I'm arguing for abortion, remember? The sleeping person has lived (has experienced higher emotions, has thought, has questioned, has learned...the unborn fetus has done none of these). The baby had a possibility to live, however it didn't.CptJSparrow

I would not want to die as an unborn baby. BEFORE I HAD A CHANCE.

Okay, so killing a sleeping baby is fine, as long as it hasn't woken up since it was born?

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] It has the potential to one day become a human being if fertilization occurs.:| The point is, they're a possible genetic combination and thus a possible human being, which will never be born. This is the equivalent of abortion.Silver_Dragon17

No it isn't.

A sperm cell has potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

An egg has the potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

A sperm cell combined with an egg is guaranteed to become a human

A miscarriage is sad, but natural.

I know your point, but it's not true. A sperm will never become a human unless it fertalizes an egg that will also never become a human unless it is fertilized. They have the potential, but they are not human, nor will they be unless they mix for nine months, so when a sperm cell or egg dies it is nature, not murder.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

Choga

To be sentient, something must perceive by the senses. To do so, something must posses sensory organs.

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

Choga

It doesn't. There are conditions such as HSAN disorders which leave people incapable of feeling pain, in fact one of the James Bond movies played off of this theme to create a bad guy for Bond to fight with. In humans, the ability to sense does not imply they possess sensation. The important aspect of sentient beings is cognitive brain function without which means that a person as you know them is dead and all that's left is a biological doll.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] Because you're dying as an unborn baby. I'm arguing for abortion, remember? The sleeping person has lived (has experienced higher emotions, has thought, has questioned, has learned...the unborn fetus has done none of these). The baby had a possibility to live, however it didn't.Silver_Dragon17

I would not want to die as an unborn baby. BEFORE I HAD A CHANCE.

Okay, so killing a sleeping baby is fine, as long as it hasn't woken up since it was born?

[QUOTE="Choga"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Choga"]

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

quiglythegreat

To be sentient, something must perceive by the senses. To do so, something must posses sensory organs.

So you lose because for something to perceive it needs sensory organs.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] It has the potential to one day become a human being if fertilization occurs.:| The point is, they're a possible genetic combination and thus a possible human being, which will never be born. This is the equivalent of abortion.CptJSparrow

No it isn't.

A sperm cell has potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

An egg has the potential to become a human being, but alone, it never will.

A sperm cell combined with an egg is guaranteed to become a human

A miscarriage is sad, but natural.

I know your point, but it's not true. A sperm will never become a human unless it fertalizes an egg that will also never become a human unless it is fertilized. They have the potential, but they are not human, nor will they be unless they mix for nine months, so when a sperm cell or egg dies it is nature, not murder.

No it is not. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy already in progress, in otherwords, a developing human. A sperm dieing or an egg dieing is just nature setting its course, making room for more life, etc. How does this equal abortion in any way?

And just because it is legal doesn't mean it's not killing. Like I said before, if it will so much as become a human, it should live.

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Sensory organs DOES mean that something is sentient, because sensory organs allow something to perceive by the sense, and posses sensation.

Atrus

It doesn't. There are conditions such as HSAN disorders which leave people incapable of feeling pain, in fact one of the James Bond movies played off of this theme to create a bad guy for Bond to fight with. In humans, the ability to sense does not imply they possess sensation. The important aspect of sentient beings is cognitive brain function without which means that a person as you know them is dead and all that's left is a biological doll.

Those conditions are genetic disorders, they are unfortunate irregularities. Unless a fetus has this genetic disorder, than it is sentient because its sensory organs allow it to have sensation. I was watching a National Geographic documentary, where they had twins in the womb. They responded to each other's touches, which implies they have sensation.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] Because you're dying as an unborn baby. I'm arguing for abortion, remember? The sleeping person has lived (has experienced higher emotions, has thought, has questioned, has learned...the unborn fetus has done none of these). The baby had a possibility to live, however it didn't.CptJSparrow

I would not want to die as an unborn baby. BEFORE I HAD A CHANCE.

Okay, so killing a sleeping baby is fine, as long as it hasn't woken up since it was born?

How do we know this? Is there some sort of test that harms babies and sees if it reacts?

Besides, the inability to feel it doesn't make it any better.

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs,

Choga

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] I'm aware that it won't become a human being unless it fertilizes the egg. That's exactly the point. It hasn't, therefore it's the equivalent of abortion because that genetic combination never occurred. As a side note, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion isn't illegal in most U.S. states.Silver_Dragon17

No it is not. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy already in progress, in otherwords, a developing human. A sperm dieing or an egg dieing is just nature setting its course, making room for more life, etc. How does this equal abortion in any way?

And just because it is legal doesn't mean it's not killing. Like I said before, if it will so much as become a human, it should live.

[QUOTE="Choga"]

Sentience refers to possession of sensory organs,

quiglythegreat

How you view the word is irrelevant. That is how science defines it, and that is the definition.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] No, the baby can feel pain at that point. A fetus less than 8 weeks old can not.Silver_Dragon17

How do we know this? Is there some sort of test that harms babies and sees if it reacts?

Besides, the inability to feel it doesn't make it any better.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] I'm aware that it won't become a human being unless it fertilizes the egg. That's exactly the point. It hasn't, therefore it's the equivalent of abortion because that genetic combination never occurred. As a side note, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion isn't illegal in most U.S. states.CptJSparrow

No it is not. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy already in progress, in otherwords, a developing human. A sperm dieing or an egg dieing is just nature setting its course, making room for more life, etc. How does this equal abortion in any way?

And just because it is legal doesn't mean it's not killing. Like I said before, if it will so much as become a human, it should live.

But it is not stopping a development already in progress. It only keeps a child from being born because it keeps a child from developing. That is not abortion. Abortion is when a child already in the process of development, who will eventually grow arms, legs, a personality, a life, is killed by unnaturally stopping the pregnancy with man-made objects and procedures.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] No, the baby can feel pain at that point. A fetus less than 8 weeks old can not.CptJSparrow

How do we know this? Is there some sort of test that harms babies and sees if it reacts?

Besides, the inability to feel it doesn't make it any better.

How do we know they can't feel pain? Do they perform some kind of test I have never heard of to see if it responds to the stimulous of pain? Or do they go "Well, if it cries out when we cut of its head, we'll know"?

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] I'm aware that it won't become a human being unless it fertilizes the egg. That's exactly the point. It hasn't, therefore it's the equivalent of abortion because that genetic combination never occurred. As a side note, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion isn't illegal in most U.S. states.Silver_Dragon17

No it is not. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy already in progress, in otherwords, a developing human. A sperm dieing or an egg dieing is just nature setting its course, making room for more life, etc. How does this equal abortion in any way?

And just because it is legal doesn't mean it's not killing. Like I said before, if it will so much as become a human, it should live.

But it is not stopping a development already in progress. It only keeps a child from being born because it keeps a child from developing. That is not abortion. Abortion is when a child already in the process of development, who will eventually grow arms, legs, a personality, a life, is killed by unnaturally stopping the pregnancy with man-made objects and procedures.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] No, the baby can feel pain at that point. A fetus less than 8 weeks old can not.Silver_Dragon17

How do we know this? Is there some sort of test that harms babies and sees if it reacts?

Besides, the inability to feel it doesn't make it any better.

How do we know they can't feel pain? Do they perform some kind of test I have never heard of to see if it responds to the stimulous of pain? Or do they go "Well, if it cries out when we cut of its head, we'll know"?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] I'm aware that it won't become a human being unless it fertilizes the egg. That's exactly the point. It hasn't, therefore it's the equivalent of abortion because that genetic combination never occurred. As a side note, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion isn't illegal in most U.S. states.CptJSparrow

No it is not. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy already in progress, in otherwords, a developing human. A sperm dieing or an egg dieing is just nature setting its course, making room for more life, etc. How does this equal abortion in any way?

And just because it is legal doesn't mean it's not killing. Like I said before, if it will so much as become a human, it should live.

But it is not stopping a development already in progress. It only keeps a child from being born because it keeps a child from developing. That is not abortion. Abortion is when a child already in the process of development, who will eventually grow arms, legs, a personality, a life, is killed by unnaturally stopping the pregnancy with man-made objects and procedures.

The other human will never be born because the other human will never exist. The difference is one doesn't exist at all, while the other does. A growing and developing child deserves the chance to live. If the human does not exist, then it cannot be killed, and if it cannot be killed, then there's no way it can equal murder.

How do we know that the nervous system processes stimuli? Do we cut off their head and see if they can still scream and twitch? No, you monitor the central nervous system to know if it has a reaction to the stimulus of pain. The 8 week old fetus does not. It's the equivalent of killing a bacterium: the stimulus will always get the same response, and there is no thinking or storing of information involved, therefore the fetus has no idea what's coming.CptJSparrow

I cannot believe you just compared a human fetus to bacteria.

I ask again: Even though we can monitor the nervous system, how do we know the kid can't feel pain? For us to know, the kid would have to be put in a painful situation, and then we monitor what happens. What situation is the kid put in to monitor the pain it is (or isn't) feeling?

The other human will never be born because the other human will never exist. The difference is one doesn't exist at all, while the other does. A growing and developing child deserves the chance to live. If the human does not exist, then it cannot be killed, and if it cannot be killed, then there's no way it can equal murder.

Silver_Dragon17

Those conditions are genetic disorders, they are unfortunate irregularities. Unless a fetus has this genetic disorder, than it is sentient because its sensory organs allow it to have sensation. I was watching a National Geographic documentary, where they had twins in the womb. They responded to each other's touches, which implies they have sensation.

Choga

The example was to show that sense and sensation are two different things. Babies also develop a falling down sensation, however we have to still be aware that these might also be autonomous responses. It's not that I'm advocating a liberalized approach to the data, as conservatism suggests it's better to assume that the ability to sense is where sensation starts, however it has to be clear that sense does not mean sensation.

People who suffer various conditions are proof positive of this as are people who are brain dead. The body is a biological tool that is only as relevent as the brain that controls it.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] How do we know that the nervous system processes stimuli? Do we cut off their head and see if they can still scream and twitch? No, you monitor the central nervous system to know if it has a reaction to the stimulus of pain. The 8 week old fetus does not. It's the equivalent of killing a bacterium: the stimulus will always get the same response, and there is no thinking or storing of information involved, therefore the fetus has no idea what's coming.Silver_Dragon17

I cannot believe you just compared a human fetus to bacteria.

I ask again: Even though we can monitor the nervous system, how do we know the kid can't feel pain? For us to know, the kid would have to be put in a painful situation, and then we monitor what happens. What situation is the kid put in to monitor the pain it is (or isn't) feeling?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] I'm aware that it won't become a human being unless it fertilizes the egg. That's exactly the point. It hasn't, therefore it's the equivalent of abortion because that genetic combination never occurred. As a side note, murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion isn't illegal in most U.S. states.CptJSparrow

No it is not. Abortion is terminating a pregnancy already in progress, in otherwords, a developing human. A sperm dieing or an egg dieing is just nature setting its course, making room for more life, etc. How does this equal abortion in any way?

And just because it is legal doesn't mean it's not killing. Like I said before, if it will so much as become a human, it should live.

But it is not stopping a development already in progress. It only keeps a child from being born because it keeps a child from developing. That is not abortion. Abortion is when a child already in the process of development, who will eventually grow arms, legs, a personality, a life, is killed by unnaturally stopping the pregnancy with man-made objects and procedures.