America's music taste is degrading

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]Because I find simplicity and overuse of verse-chorus song structure incredibly boring, so therefor I think it sucks. I could go into finer detail, but it would be pointless, since I'm not here to change anyone's mind (even if I could).

ColonelVodka

However, you still seem to have failed to grasp that you have provided no evidence that what you're talking about "sucks".

You merely deflected the discussion by changing "that sucks" into "I find that to be boring".

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"] Fair enough, just so long as you realize that that says FAR more about you than it it says about the actual "music".

MrGeezer

However, you still seem to have failed to grasp that you have provided no evidence that what you're talking about "sucks".

You merely deflected the discussion by changing "that sucks" into "I find that to be boring".

[QUOTE="Sajo7"][QUOTE="ColonelVodka"] Thanks for the information. I feel like I have learned a great deal from this ordeal. This whole time I had no idea that I was merely expressing my own opinion. ColonelVodka

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]

[QUOTE="Sajo7"] I think his point is that simply stating a strong opinion with no explanation contributes nothing to a discussion.Sajo7

I think I've explained myself plenty. I don't think I need to write a huge essay on why I think something is garbage, especially for something as subjective as music.

ColonelVodka

Sure, if that "explanation" is nothing more than "I just plain don't like it". Which, by the way, was basically your entire argument.

And again...I'm not even saying that those "artists" are actually even worth a damn. But words like "sucks", "awesome", "boring", "cool" don't really mean anything when it comes to substantial discussion. You certainly answered my post and clarified that much of your complaint is with the basic song structure, but you still have failed to indicate what is inherently bad or "boring" about that song structure.

"Sucks" is just another way of saying "I don't like this."

ColonelVodka

Not really.

I don't recall EVER hearing someone say, "this sucks, even though it is truly very good".

People might say "this is very good, even though it's not partial to my tastes and sensibilities", but I have NEVER heard anyone say "this sucks, but it's actually pretty damn great".

I think people should just STFU about wich music genre or band is better because its really all based on opinion. Just listen and enjoy the music you listen to. I know I said that most mainstream music is terrible butthats just my opinion and I don't really go around arguing whichgenre or artist is better. I could really care less if you liked Lil wayne orLagy Gaga or Justin Beiber. Its just what you like and I wont really hold anything aginst you. Why? Because I have my own music that I listen to and I really enjoy it.

Pop music has always intended to appeal to the masses. There's always been good music and bad music at any given time. I'm an American and I listen to lots of jazz. Not everyone just listens to the top 20 radio, and even if they do, who cares? If they enjoy it, they enjoy it.t3hrubikscube

But damnit, they shouldn't be ALLOWED to enjoy it, because it sucks!

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]I think I've explained myself plenty. I don't think I need to write a huge essay on why I think something is garbage, especially for something as subjective as music.

MrGeezer

Sure, if that "explanation" is nothing more than "I just plain don't like it". Which, by the way, was basically your entire argument.

And again...I'm not even saying that those "artists" are actually even worth a damn. But words like "sucks", "awesome", "boring", "cool" don't really mean anything when it comes to substantial discussion. You certainly answered my post and clarified that much of your complaint is with the basic song structure, but you still have failed to indicate what is inherently bad or "boring" about that song structure.

Lady Gaga can sing. Have a look at this live piano rendition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0M2u-cu0so

Point is, I think many pop singers have singing voices but are bogged down by OUR mainstream tastes and need for dumbed-down lyrics.

Well, I can't argue this objectively because there's no objective reason why ANY music would suck or be boring (everyone's different), so I don't know what you want me to say. I find Pop song structure boring because it repeats the same crap over and over (didn't I say that before?). It's not challenging -- it's overly simplified, monotonous, overproduced, poetically devoid, and is of no value to me. It just drones on and on and bores into my brain like a drill. And if there ever is a change in what's going on in the song, it's usually nothing more than filler. Is that enough to clarifiy my stance as to why it's boring? Do I need to bring out the music theory?

ColonelVodka

I don't even know what "the music theory is".

But the name certainly sounds a whole lot more well-reasoned and objective than "I just plain don't like it". If you're well-studied in a theory which objectively explains why X or Y is good/bad, then citing the theory is more substantial than appealing to opinion.

After all, why would someone support their claim that faster-than-light travewl is impossible when there's THEORY about it?

Again, I have no problems with your CONCLUSIONS (those conclusions being that those artists suck). How basically all you were saying was that you didn't like it, and that it is therefore bad. And yeah...that is not really good for a healthy debate. On the other hand, if you actually DO know about am objective and logically sound theory, then by all means go ahead and cite that theory. Bring out something objective, and it'll save the time of having a thousand people blindly arguing about opinions.

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]Well, I can't argue this objectively because there's no objective reason why ANY music would suck or be boring (everyone's different), so I don't know what you want me to say. I find Pop song structure boring because it repeats the same crap over and over (didn't I say that before?). It's not challenging -- it's overly simplified, monotonous, overproduced, poetically devoid, and is of no value to me. It just drones on and on and bores into my brain like a drill. And if there ever is a change in what's going on in the song, it's usually nothing more than filler. Is that enough to clarifiy my stance as to why it's boring? Do I need to bring out the music theory?

MrGeezer

I don't even know what "the music theory is".

But the name certainly sounds a whole lot more well-reasoned and objective than "I just plain don't like it". If you're well-studied in a theory which objectively explains why X or Y is good/bad, then citing the theory is more substantial than appealing to opinion.

After all, why would someone support their claim that faster-than-light travewl is impossible when there's THEORY about it?

Again, I have no problems with your CONCLUSIONS (those conclusions being that those artists suck). How basically all you were saying was that you didn't like it, and that it is therefore bad. And yeah...that is not really good for a healthy debate. On the other hand, if you actually DO know about am objective and logically sound theory, then by all means go ahead and cite that theory. Bring out something objective, and it'll save the time of having a thousand people blindly arguing about opinions.

I think I've made it clear that I don't want to argue this. It's actually one of the most idiotic things to argue about, since it's so highly opinionated, and I don't wish to change peoples minds. I believe people need to find their own place in music, IF they like music.

ColonelVodka

So...you asked me if you should whip out the "music theory".

I then accept your offer and say, "sure, go ahead".

And your reply is to then say that music is all nothing but opinion and is stupid to discuss in a serious non-objective manner.

Am I pretty much approximating the course of this discussion?

I always loved great American singers as Michael Jackson , Madonna , Tupac Shakur ETC . Even Backstreet Boys . Whole World used to love those artists .

No offense to American's , for god's sake ... whats wrong with American music nowadays ???

Why American music industry hyping and promoting worst singers as Justin Beiber , Lady Gaga , Rebecca Black and Lil Wayne ? What happened to finding real talents and promoting them instead ?

Thoughts ?

indzman

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]Well, I can't argue this objectively because there's no objective reason why ANY music would suck or be boring (everyone's different), so I don't know what you want me to say. I find Pop song structure boring because it repeats the same crap over and over (didn't I say that before?). It's not challenging -- it's overly simplified, monotonous, overproduced, poetically devoid, and is of no value to me. It just drones on and on and bores into my brain like a drill. And if there ever is a change in what's going on in the song, it's usually nothing more than filler. Is that enough to clarifiy my stance as to why it's boring? Do I need to bring out the music theory?

MrGeezer

I don't even know what "the music theory is".

But the name certainly sounds a whole lot more well-reasoned and objective than "I just plain don't like it". If you're well-studied in a theory which objectively explains why X or Y is good/bad, then citing the theory is more substantial than appealing to opinion.

After all, why would someone support their claim that faster-than-light travewl is impossible when there's THEORY about it?

Again, I have no problems with your CONCLUSIONS (those conclusions being that those artists suck). How basically all you were saying was that you didn't like it, and that it is therefore bad. And yeah...that is not really good for a healthy debate. On the other hand, if you actually DO know about am objective and logically sound theory, then by all means go ahead and cite that theory. Bring out something objective, and it'll save the time of having a thousand people blindly arguing about opinions.

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]I think I've made it clear that I don't want to argue this. It's actually one of the most idiotic things to argue about, since it's so highly opinionated, and I don't wish to change peoples minds. I believe people need to find their own place in music, IF they like music.

MrGeezer

So...you asked me if you should whip out the "music theory".

I then accept your offer and say, "sure, go ahead".

And your reply is to then say that music is all nothing but opinion and is stupid to discuss in a serious non-objective manner.

Am I pretty much approximating the course of this discussion?

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

So...you asked me if you should whip out the "music theory".

I then accept your offer and say, "sure, go ahead".

And your reply is to then say that music is all nothing but opinion and is stupid to discuss in a serious non-objective manner.

Am I pretty much approximating the course of this discussion?

InEMplease

It makes a difference if you take other things into account. For instance, if Bach had composed a piece with a major VII chord, something common in pop, he would have been thrown in jail. It's not completely subjective, and can be looked at objectively. Also, if you're gonna make a claim as big as "The Beatles Suck", you should really have some ammo for the opposotion you'll recieve. Ammo beside "I don't like them, I'll never like them, so **** them."

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

It makes a difference if you take other things into account. For instance, if Bach had composed a piece with a major VII chord, something common in pop, he would have been thrown in jail. It's not completely subjective, and can be looked at objectively. Also, if you're gonna make a claim as big as "The Beatles Suck", you should really have some ammo for the opposotion you'll recieve. Ammo beside "I don't like them, I'll never like them, so **** them."

InEMplease

So you look like you know what you're talking about instead of just being some opinionated simpleton?

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

It makes a difference if you take other things into account. For instance, if Bach had composed a piece with a major VII chord, something common in pop, he would have been thrown in jail. It's not completely subjective, and can be looked at objectively. Also, if you're gonna make a claim as big as "The Beatles Suck", you should really have some ammo for the opposotion you'll recieve. Ammo beside "I don't like them, I'll never like them, so **** them."

InEMplease

So you look like you know what you're talking about instead of just being some opinionated simpleton?

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]I don't care if you take me seriously or not. That's my opinion, and I chose to express it. And yes, The Beatles suck. In fact, all those bands you listed are the epitome of the word "suck." But that's just my opinion, so no need to get your panties in a bunch. :)

ColonelVodka

WHY do they suck?

Opinions are like nipples...everyone has at least two or three. But "it's my opinion" doesn't really count for a whole helluva lot when discussing such things as "quality", unless one is basing that opinion on more objective and well-defined criteria.

And keep in mind that I am not even saying that all (or any) of those "artists" are good/bad. But I think that it's sort of a copout to use "opinion" as a way of avoiding discussing quality. You or I or That Dude can have any OPINION that we like. But without backing it up with something a little more concrete, that opinion isn't really worth anything to anyone but ourselves. So...in what way exactly does that opinion argue for or against QUALITY (which happens to be a bit less subjective)?

Mabye he dosen't really care that much? Its just the internet after all. Why do you two keep persisting in arguing with him? Its not like he attacked you or the Beatles. He just thought they sucked in his opinion. I wouldn't get all offensive if someone thought Metal sucked. Why? Because its their opinion. I just listen to whatever the hell I like.

Gibsonsg527

Notice that NO ONE here is forcing ANYONE else to discuss what they don't want to.

I just find it funny to see someone post about half a dozen replies about how they don't care enough to talk about it. While having no problem repeatedly talking about how they're not gonna talk about it.

[QUOTE="Gibsonsg527"] Mabye he dosen't really care that much? Its just the internet after all. Why do you two keep persisting in arguing with him? Its not like he attacked you or the Beatles. He just thought they sucked in his opinion. I wouldn't get all offensive if someone thought Metal sucked. Why? Because its their opinion. I just listen to whatever the hell I like.

MrGeezer

Notice that NO ONE here is forcing ANYONE else to discuss what they don't want to.

I just find it funny to see someone post about half a dozen replies about how they don't care enough to talk about it. While having no problem repeatedly talking about how they're not gonna talk about it.

I don't care if you take me seriously or not. That's my opinion, and I chose to express it. And yes, The Beatles suck. In fact, all those bands you listed are the epitome of the word "suck." But that's just my opinion, so no need to get your panties in a bunch. :)ColonelVodka

[QUOTE="matastig"]

[QUOTE="scorch-62"]Someone can't seem to look passed OT's front page. Also, explain how Bieber and Gaga are not talented.GreySeal9

No offense, but how do we know you're any good?

Gaga has a strong singing voice and can play piano and can definitely write a memorable pop song (Bad Romance).

Beiber has a little bit of singing talent even if his music is not very good.

Gaga has a strong singing voice! really?? can you even read music sheets? at least to tell the difference when the correct note is produced!

oh and this 5 years old girl want to say hi to your Gaga.

and this armless guy want to teach Gaga how to play the guitar you know just in case she loses her breasts or something.

and again No offense to you at all!! but to those false prophets..

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

WHY do they suck?

Opinions are like nipples...everyone has at least two or three. But "it's my opinion" doesn't really count for a whole helluva lot when discussing such things as "quality", unless one is basing that opinion on more objective and well-defined criteria.

And keep in mind that I am not even saying that all (or any) of those "artists" are good/bad. But I think that it's sort of a copout to use "opinion" as a way of avoiding discussing quality. You or I or That Dude can have any OPINION that we like. But without backing it up with something a little more concrete, that opinion isn't really worth anything to anyone but ourselves. So...in what way exactly does that opinion argue for or against QUALITY (which happens to be a bit less subjective)?

PannicAtack

Fair enough, you just seem so defensive about it.

Gibsonsg527

I'm not defensive. I just kept asking him for an explanation until I got tired of him giving the same non-answer. At which point, it was in my benefit to simply stop talking to him.

Again, like you said, this is the internet. People are gonna talk about what they talk about and BS what they want to BS. I can argue or debate with a person for a little while. But if the whole discussion is clearly just going in circles, then there comes a point at which I decide that it's just not worth my time.

Everyone here can answer how they want to. We're all also free to simply exit a thread and not say another thing about it. Whatever people want to do. I just sort of think that...running around in circles like this is probably a whole lot more effort than either flat-out being direct, or ignoring the other person entirely. Once the discussion keeps running around in circles long enough, SOMEONE has to put a stop to it by just plain finding other things to do.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="matastig"] well i'm a musician since 1990 and i have a question for you , can you please explain how Bieber and Gaga are talented?!??lol

matastig

No offense, but how do we know you're any good?

Gaga has a strong singing voice and can play piano and can definitely write a memorable pop song (Bad Romance).

Beiber has a little bit of singing talent even if his music is not very good.

Gaga has a strong singing voice! really?? can you even read music sheets? at least to tell the difference when the correct note is produced!

oh and this 5 years old girl want to say hi to your Gaga.

and this armless guy want to teach Gaga how to play the guitar you know just in case she loses her breasts or something.

and again No offense to you at all!! but to those false prophets..

You obviously haven't watched either of the videos in this thread about Gaga's singer. She's a very strong vocalist, and an excellent pianist.

From the 50s all the way up to today, pop music has always been really bad. I avoid listening to it as much as possible.

Everyone around me seems to LOVE it though, so that doesn't exactly help matters much...

This thread again? Same old OT threads.

From the 50s all the way up to today, pop music has always been really bad. I avoid listening to it as much as possible.

Everyone around me seems to LOVE it though, so that doesn't exactly help matters much...

marcogamer07

The music industry has never been about finding "real talent". It's about finding stuff that sells; just look at the Spice Girls and the Backstreet Boys.

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"][QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]Because I find simplicity and overuse of verse-chorus song structure incredibly boring, so therefor I think it sucks. I could go into finer detail, but it would be pointless, since I'm not here to change anyone's mind (even if I could).

ColonelVodka

[QUOTE="ColonelVodka"]

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"] You ever analyze a Beethoven Sonata? He's got I-V-I-V out the wazoo.PannicAtack

I'm pretty sure he was thinking Moonlight Sonata.

how is it just america's music taste? there's plenty of ****ty music from all over the world...

I always loved great American singers as Michael Jackson , Madonna , Tupac Shakur ETC . Even Backstreet Boys . Whole World used to love those artists .

No offense to American's , for god's sake ... whats wrong with American music nowadays ???

Why American music industry hyping and promoting worst singers as Justin Beiber , Lady Gaga , Rebecca Black and Lil Wayne ? What happened to finding real talents and promoting them instead ?

Thoughts ?

indzman

[QUOTE="indzman"]

I always loved great American singers as Michael Jackson , Madonna , Tupac Shakur ETC . Even Backstreet Boys . Whole World used to love those artists .

No offense to American's , for god's sake ... whats wrong with American music nowadays ???

Why American music industry hyping and promoting worst singers as Justin Beiber , Lady Gaga , Rebecca Black and Lil Wayne ? What happened to finding real talents and promoting them instead ?

Thoughts ?

Bloodseeker23

most people are too lazy to actually take time to search for great artists. casual listeners don't care enough to really look.

^ Exactly, and thats the wrong with music today. Mainstream only happens because people are just too damn lazy to search for better music! :(Bloodseeker23

Step one: get an XM radio.

Step two: pick a random station; listen to it for that whole day.

Step three: choose a different station; slowly choose a favorite.