British dude slams the idea of a mosque at the WTC

[QUOTE="jamejame"]

I kind of agree with him, it is without a doubt a tasteless thing to do in my opinion. I'm not overly upset by it or anything, but come on, we're going out of our way to please muslims on the matter. What really grinds my gears though is this country's false sense of equlity. You can bet if some radical Christian group had been behind the act there's no way they would be allowed to build a church ANYWHERE near there, yet true Christians in many ways hold less hateful fews than true Muslims do.

Former_Slacker

That's the problem, muslim=/= terrorist, hell there were quite a few muslims killed on 9/11 by the terrorists.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Okay, by that logic it wasa Christian who killed the abortion doctor a while back, therefore all Christianity is responsible for killing and must be stopped at all costs.

Deano

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

stupid comparison, when you look at the numbers

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Okay, by that logic it wasa Christian who killed the abortion doctor a while back, therefore all Christianity is responsible for killing and must be stopped at all costs.

Deano

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

stupid comparison, when you look at the numbers

Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument, if you want to get into death tolls and comparing who has more then Christianity has plenty. However, it's a ridiculous line of thinking anyways, as the fact that one religion has killed more doesn't make it any better. The fact is that religion has been used in the name of killing, every religion. That doesn't mean that the individuals who follow that religion are all bloodthirsty murderers.

It teaches that doing whatever is necessary to gain control or ultimately if they resist, kill the infidels is perfectly acceptable. jamejame

[QUOTE="Former_Slacker"]

[QUOTE="jamejame"]

I kind of agree with him, it is without a doubt a tasteless thing to do in my opinion. I'm not overly upset by it or anything, but come on, we're going out of our way to please muslims on the matter. What really grinds my gears though is this country's false sense of equlity. You can bet if some radical Christian group had been behind the act there's no way they would be allowed to build a church ANYWHERE near there, yet true Christians in many ways hold less hateful fews than true Muslims do.

jamejame

That's the problem, muslim=/= terrorist, hell there were quite a few muslims killed on 9/11 by the terrorists.

It's not going out of our way, it's sticking to our principles. This country was founded in part on the idea that men of all religions are treated equally, we can't just throw that out the window because Islam seems strange to us.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Thanks for telling me my own opinion, I just love when people do that. Europeans don't have a probelm, idiotic bigots who are afraid of change have a problem.

theone86

No one's trying to change any laws, that's an absurd conspiracy theory made up by bigots.

What's the point in comparing deaths? That's like comparing the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide; both were horrible, and shouldn't be compared.ghoklebutter

because you're comparing lone individuals with their own agenda to organized groups of terrorists.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]So it's okay when another group tries to change the laws of a people? They are just ignorant for not accepting that?LJS9502_basic

No one's trying to change any laws, that's an absurd conspiracy theory made up by bigots.

There you go with that "they" again, it's a trademark of prejudicial thinking. Not all European Muslims want Sharia law enacted, just because a small fringe support it does not mean the whole of European Muslims do.

Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument, if you want to get into death tolls and comparing who has more then Christianity has plenty. However, it's a ridiculous line of thinking anyways, as the fact that one religion has killed more doesn't make it any better. The fact is that religion has been used in the name of killing, every religion. That doesn't mean that the individuals who follow that religion are all bloodthirsty murderers.

theone86

we're talking about the present not the past.

the only suggestion you've made in this thread is to roll over and take whatever muslims bring to the country or that we are hateful bigots if we don't let them.

you're either a muslim or just a sheep

Good thing they arn't building a mosque at the WTC.

They are building a community center with a mosque in it, a block away. The WTC is not the entire state of new york.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

No one's trying to change any laws, that's an absurd conspiracy theory made up by bigots.

theone86

There you go with that "they" again, it's a trademark of prejudicial thinking. Not all European Muslims want Sharia law enacted, just because a small fringe support it does not mean the whole of European Muslims do.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

I'm sure public opinion will put a stop to this anyway, despite motives. The dude brung up a few good points, and his feelings toward this are supported by many.

InEMplease

American Segregation was supported by many as well, didn't stop that from coming crashing down.

It also had more people against it fighting for something other than a building.

For one, this is about more than a bulding in a sense, it's about equal treatment of all religious groups under the law. Two, there aren't that many people fighting against the building and thankfully those in power know that in America another group's rights can't be overriden by the will of the masses.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Seriously, this is a ridiculous argument, if you want to get into death tolls and comparing who has more then Christianity has plenty. However, it's a ridiculous line of thinking anyways, as the fact that one religion has killed more doesn't make it any better. The fact is that religion has been used in the name of killing, every religion. That doesn't mean that the individuals who follow that religion are all bloodthirsty murderers.

Deano

we're talking about the present not the past.

the only suggestion you've made in this thread is to roll over and take whatever muslims bring to the country or that we are hateful bigots if we don't let them.

you're either a muslim or just a sheep

Well you sorta have to take Muslims building a mosque where they want if it is in line with city zoning codes and they own the land.

If you arn't for that then you are against freedom of religion, far as I see it. Not alot of middle ground there.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Actually they want Sharia law enacted.....LJS9502_basic

There you go with that "they" again, it's a trademark of prejudicial thinking. Not all European Muslims want Sharia law enacted, just because a small fringe support it does not mean the whole of European Muslims do.

What I meant is that there isn't a significant social or political movement dedicated to enacting Sharia law in Europe. It would be ridiculous of me to go to some right wing blog that says the South should secede and use that as evidence that we need to use the army to surpress a revolt, same as it's ridiculous for you to say that because there might have been some Muslims somewhere in Europe that said they wanted Sharia law to replace European law that automatically means that all European Muslims want that and must be supressed.

What I meant is that there isn't a significant social or political movement dedicated to enacting Sharia law in Europe. It would be ridiculous of me to go to some right wing blog that says the South should secede and use that as evidence that we need to use the army to surpress a revolt, same as it's ridiculous for you to say that because there might have been some Muslims somewhere in Europe that said they wanted Sharia law to replace European law that automatically means that all European Muslims want that and must be supressed.

theone86

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="jamejame"]You're right, Muslim doesn't equal terrorist, but is going out of our way to please a religious group of whom a sect bombed us really necessary? Do you know what the Koran teaches? It teaches that doing whatever is necessary to gain control or ultimately if they resist, kill the infidels is perfectly acceptable. Obviously we shouldn't be hateful toward muslims only because of this (not sarcasm), but the fact that they all ascribe to following this piece of literature as the highest form of order is a little crazy when you compare this to our over-zealousness in gaining their approval. Their religion is allowed in our country as it should be, why is that not enough? Its what The Constitution dictates we do, but common decency should also allow us the ability to dictate the fact that building a mosque at ground-zero is plain tasteless and wrong.

InEMplease

It's not going out of our way, it's sticking to our principles. This country was founded in part on the idea that men of all religions are treated equally, we can't just throw that out the window because Islam seems strange to us.

Legally, they are all treated equally. The inequality they have comes from ignorance of the individual, fueled by the events of 9/11, and which will be further fueled if this Mosque is constructed, simply because they plan to build it so close to ground-zero.

Legally they have a right to build the mosque there, if their right to build the mosque is ifnringed upon they will have lost that equal treatment under the law, that is why this is an argument about retaining equality.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

What I meant is that there isn't a significant social or political movement dedicated to enacting Sharia law in Europe. It would be ridiculous of me to go to some right wing blog that says the South should secede and use that as evidence that we need to use the army to surpress a revolt, same as it's ridiculous for you to say that because there might have been some Muslims somewhere in Europe that said they wanted Sharia law to replace European law that automatically means that all European Muslims want that and must be supressed.

LJS9502_basic

Based on what?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

It also had more people against it fighting for something other than a building.

InEMplease

For one, this is about more than a bulding in a sense, it's about equal treatment of all religious groups under the law. Two, there aren't that many people fighting against the building and thankfully those in power know that in America another group's rights can't be overriden by the will of the masses.

"In a sense" being the key words. Until they establish a significant movement, it's pointless, and maybe even harmful. There are more people fighting against it than for it, given the mind-frame of the average American. Their right can't be overridden, but it can cause an unnecessary uproar.

Causing an uproar is no reason to restrict constitutional rights.

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

For one, this is about more than a bulding in a sense, it's about equal treatment of all religious groups under the law. Two, there aren't that many people fighting against the building and thankfully those in power know that in America another group's rights can't be overriden by the will of the masses.

theone86

"In a sense" being the key words. Until they establish a significant movement, it's pointless, and maybe even harmful. There are more people fighting against it than for it, given the mind-frame of the average American. Their right can't be overridden, but it can cause an unnecessary uproar.

Causing an uproar is no reason to restrict constitutional rights.

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

It's not going out of our way, it's sticking to our principles. This country was founded in part on the idea that men of all religions are treated equally, we can't just throw that out the window because Islam seems strange to us.

theone86

Legally, they are all treated equally. The inequality they have comes from ignorance of the individual, fueled by the events of 9/11, and which will be further fueled if this Mosque is constructed, simply because they plan to build it so close to ground-zero.

Legally they have a right to build the mosque there, if their right to build the mosque is ifnringed upon they will have lost that equal treatment under the law, that is why this is an argument about retaining equality.

I've been trying to find the fine print for freedom of religion where it says "except for Muslims" but haven't been able to locate it.

how much freedom do you think you'll have when muslims start getting the numbers to get into office and changing laws.

it's unfortunate but this mess is going to be have to be cleaned up by our children and grand-children since there's still too many people blinded by "tolerance" there's already alot of problems in europe and it's only the start of things.

I don't care if rejecting an ideology I consider harmful makes me a bigot in some peoples eyes.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

"In a sense" being the key words. Until they establish a significant movement, it's pointless, and maybe even harmful. There are more people fighting against it than for it, given the mind-frame of the average American. Their right can't be overridden, but it can cause an unnecessary uproar.

LJS9502_basic

Causing an uproar is no reason to restrict constitutional rights.

There's a constitutional right to equal treatment under the law, if Muslims are singled out as the only religion not allowed to build a structure in a certian area it is a breach of constitutional rights.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

Legally, they are all treated equally. The inequality they have comes from ignorance of the individual, fueled by the events of 9/11, and which will be further fueled if this Mosque is constructed, simply because they plan to build it so close to ground-zero.

Pixel-Pirate

Legally they have a right to build the mosque there, if their right to build the mosque is ifnringed upon they will have lost that equal treatment under the law, that is why this is an argument about retaining equality.

I've been trying to find the fine print for freedom of religion where it says "except for Muslims" but haven't been able to locate it.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

"In a sense" being the key words. Until they establish a significant movement, it's pointless, and maybe even harmful. There are more people fighting against it than for it, given the mind-frame of the average American. Their right can't be overridden, but it can cause an unnecessary uproar.

InEMplease

Causing an uproar is no reason to restrict constitutional rights.

Yes it is. The constitution states you have cetain rights until you use them to incite a riot. This can incite a riot, whether that is their intention or not.

That has been invoked and rejected in different cases, it was invoked in the case of forced desegregation and the Supreme Court ruled that it was not applicable.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Causing an uproar is no reason to restrict constitutional rights.

theone86

There's a constitutional right to equal treatment under the law, if Muslims are singled out as the only religion not allowed to build a structure in a certian area it is a breach of constitutional rights.

Good thing they arn't building a mosque at the WTC.

They are building a community center with a mosque in it, a block away. The WTC is not the entire state of new york.

Pixel-Pirate

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]There is no Constitutional right of zoning....:|LJS9502_basic

There's a constitutional right to equal treatment under the law, if Muslims are singled out as the only religion not allowed to build a structure in a certian area it is a breach of constitutional rights.

A. Not a church, a community center

B. Is there precedent of laws restricting other similar structures in this area?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="theone86"]

There's a constitutional right to equal treatment under the law, if Muslims are singled out as the only religion not allowed to build a structure in a certian area it is a breach of constitutional rights.

theone86

A. Not a church, a community center

B. Is there precedent of laws restricting other similar structures in this area?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

Yes it is. The constitution states you have cetain rights until you use them to incite a riot. This can incite a riot, whether that is their intention or not.

InEMplease

That has been invoked and rejected in different cases, it was invoked in the case of forced desegregation and the Supreme Court ruled that it was not applicable.

There is no segregation for the Muslim religion other than people having a problem with them building the Mosque so close to ground-zero. They can build it anywhere else without issue, but they choose that spot.

And if there are no laws restricting building a religious building in THAT spot then they have every right to build in THAT spot.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Good thing they arn't building a mosque at the WTC.

They are building a community center with a mosque in it, a block away. The WTC is not the entire state of new york.

PerfectCircles

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

That has been invoked and rejected in different cases, it was invoked in the case of forced desegregation and the Supreme Court ruled that it was not applicable.

theone86

There is no segregation for the Muslim religion other than people having a problem with them building the Mosque so close to ground-zero. They can build it anywhere else without issue, but they choose that spot.

And if there are no laws restricting building a religious building in THAT spot then they have every right to build in THAT spot.

:| at the British guy.

I think that they should have the right to do that, and I have nothing against muslims as I've lived in muslim communities before (I'm non-religious). But I also believe that they are being disprespectful by doing it, and even though they have the right, they should show a little respect and not exercise that right.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. With all the angry people out there and all the media attention, a building like that won't be around very long. I bet there'll be lots of vandalism and other problems and they'll eventually have to pack up and move shop.

I think that they should have the right to do that, and I have nothing against muslims as I've lived in muslim communities before (I'm non-religious). But I also believe that they are being disprespectful by doing it, and even though they have the right, they should show a little respect and not exercise that right.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. With all the angry people out there and all the media attention, a building like that won't be around very long. I bet there'll be lots of vandalism and other problems and they'll eventually have to pack up and move shop.

SJGuy

If they wanted to, this could have been a Mosque and it could have been a 20 story one at that. Instead it contains 18 or so floors that is open to all the people of that area.

It still shows a lack of common decency building the "community center" as close as possible to ground zero.

UnknownSniper65