British dude slams the idea of a mosque at the WTC

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="muscleserge"] No, its because a certain group of people want to knowingly upset an another group of people. Do you think that the muslim leaders in NYC don't realize what building a mosque there entails, that it will upset the families of victims who died that day. What about when a non-muslim decides to exercise his constitutional right that would upset muslims, what do the muslim start arguing, islamophobia? racism? sensitivity? oppression? I think they shouldn't have suggested it, they are willingly and knowingly upsetting the people who suffered the most. muscleserge

About 10 years ago the KKK wanted to hold a rally in Skokie, Illinois. Skokie is a town with a large Jewish population. The KKK wanted to hold their rally there, of all places, knowing that it would upset the people there. And guess what? They were allowed to hold their rally because they have a Constitutional right to free speech and to peaceably assemble.

Yes, and the KKK did use those rights responsible by following every law and regulation. Just as these muslims are doing in this case.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="TheShadowLord07"] what kind of logic is this?

TheShadowLord07

elaborate then.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="muscleserge"] Wouldn't you agree that ones rights and freedoms should be practiced/expresses responsibly, after all this is an argument I hear most from muslims, why use these freedoms to upset the very people who were wronged the most? just because they can or are free to?InEMplease

Yes, and the KKK did use those rights responsible by following every law and regulation. Just as these muslims are doing in this case.

So you're comparing the Mulim population to the KKK?

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

So you're comparing the Mulim population to the KKK?

InEMplease

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

So you support the KKK?

Yes, because clearly that's what I've been saying. :roll:

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Yes, and the KKK did use those rights responsible by following every law and regulation. Just as these muslims are doing in this case.

worlock77

So you're comparing the Mulim population to the KKK?

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

So you support the KKK?

InEMplease

Yes, because clearly that's what I've been saying. :roll:

Clearly, that is what you've said.

The KKK has the right, but that does not make them right. Same goes for this.

I defended their rights, I didn't defend them themselves. As the old quote goes: "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

He's got balls, I'll give him that. Lots of balls. th3warr1or

What balls are those? Because this is the kind of rhetoric we have been hearing since day one with that.. Just like that old man who sent the letter that people were saying he had "balls" I am still trying to see it.. Because neither one has said anything ground breaking and is pretty much a regurgitation of past rhetoric.

[QUOTE="muscleserge"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

About 10 years ago the KKK wanted to hold a rally in Skokie, Illinois. Skokie is a town with a large Jewish population. The KKK wanted to hold their rally there, of all places, knowing that it would upset the people there. And guess what? They were allowed to hold their rally because they have a Constitutional right to free speech and to peaceably assemble.

worlock77

Yes, and the KKK did use those rights responsible by following every law and regulation. Just as these muslims are doing in this case.

No actually they did not, KKK thrived off corruption and having people in high places in power that turned a cheek.. Furthermore the KKK was brought down to a shadow of its form stuff specifically due to those regulations and the like where the government waged a war on KKK by charging each and every member of KKK for numerous things.. It didn't even matter if some were found innocent, the costs were astronomical and they could not support themselves.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

So you're comparing the Mulim population to the KKK?

snowman6251

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

Perhaps they honestly want to build there in an effort to foster tolerance and to help people realize that they are peaceful Americans. And they're not building a mosque. They're building a community center that will be open to all. This community center will happen to have a prayer hall on one floor. That is no more a mosque than a christian youth center is a cathedral.

As a New Yorker if you want to build anything religious in the vicinity of the towers it should be a religious center catering to all religions with programs teaching kids how to accept other people and understand other religions as well. That would something which could help bring peace instead of a random mosque there for no reason.

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Yes, and the KKK did use those rights responsible by following every law and regulation. Just as these muslims are doing in this case.

worlock77

So you're comparing the Mulim population to the KKK?

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

As a New Yorker if you want to build anything religious in the vicinity of the towers it should be a religious center catering to all religions with programs teaching kids how to accept other people and understand other religions as well. That would something which could help bring peace instead of a random mosque there for no reason.

bigblunt537

Its not a religious center first of all.. Its a community center that just happens to have a small mosque with in it.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="muscleserge"] Wouldn't you agree that ones rights and freedoms should be practiced/expresses responsibly, after all this is an argument I hear most from muslims, why use these freedoms to upset the very people who were wronged the most? just because they can or are free to?sSubZerOo

Yes, and the KKK did use those rights responsible by following every law and regulation. Just as these muslims are doing in this case.

No actually they did not, KKK thrived off corruption and having people in high places in power that turned a cheek.. Furthermore the KKK was brought down to a shadow of its form stuff specifically due to those regulations and the like where the government waged a war on KKK by charging each and every member of KKK for numerous things.. It didn't even matter if some were found innocent, the costs were astronomical and they could not support themselves.

I'm talking about one particular instance, not the group's history as a whole. Please follow the thread.

As a New Yorker if you want to build anything religious in the vicinity of the towers it should be a religious center catering to all religions with programs teaching kids how to accept other people and understand other religions as well. That would something which could help bring peace instead of a random mosque there for no reason.

bigblunt537

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

So you're comparing the Mulim population to the KKK?

muscleserge

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

.......... The banning of Jim Crow Laws and creating/allowing segregated schools in the 50's was vastely unpopular in many areas.. So yes it is worth it.. To me it speaks of hypocrisy, afterall didn't what Bush say is "they hate us for our freedoms"?

In my opinion tolerance is simple. Tolerate what you don't like, don't harm orkill people just because you disagree with them. But if someone doesn't want a mosque theydon't wantone. Religion doesn't mean a religious party can build whatever they want wherever they wantsimply because it's part of a religion. And it shouldn't.

Ifpeople want to protest... let them. If they don't like it and they don't want it that's fine. I'll say this though...Extremistspreys on the feeble-minded and always have. So I disregard thebull... and stick with method. When allelse fails use fire... arms.

I just wouldn't want to be anywhere near one of these mosques in one of these sensitive locations, because who knows what the non-Muslim portion of the community might do. Civilians can be worse than soldiers because once they feel they are threatened they don't give a damn what anyone else says. They kill everyone and asks questions later. Unfortunately that's only way to make sure non of the instigators survive.

Everyone canunderstand why the Brits andU.S as well as others don't want Mosques on their turf.BUT why get all worked up? If it really is someattempt to piss people off or infiltrate their society, offer a safe havenfor terrorists or whatever it's no big deal. It could always bedemolished later. It's not as if it can't be found and destroyed. It would be convenient.True itcould besomefalse sense of victory, but it would be nothing more than desperation. They would besurrounding their selves. Normally you evade anenemy, you don't set up a post in the center. So maybe it's not what somepeople think it is.Maybe Islam is just a F.A.D.

I don't want to be misunderstood. I like to give people a chance. With me people get the benefit of the doubt, but I also watch my back and always expect war therefore I remain prepared at all times.You can avoid a lot of conflict by indirectlyremindingothers that kindness is notweakness. They need to be aware that you will nothesitate tokill them if necessary. Otherwise theybegin tobelieve terror is power.

[QUOTE="muscleserge"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

No, I'm saying that both should be able to fully and lawfully exercise their rights no matter how many people may be upset by it.

sSubZerOo

.......... The banning of Jim Crow Laws and creating/allowing segregated schools in the 50's was vastely unpopular in many areas.. So yes it is worth it.. To me it speaks of hypocrisy, afterall didn't what Bush say is "they hate us for our freedoms"?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="muscleserge"] And turn many new yorkers against muslims and islam, it isn't the most popular religion these days with western europe and even Russia, if they do procede with it it would cost them alot, So is it really worth it?InEMplease

.......... The banning of Jim Crow Laws and creating/allowing segregated schools in the 50's was vastely unpopular in many areas.. So yes it is worth it.. To me it speaks of hypocrisy, afterall didn't what Bush say is "they hate us for our freedoms"?

I hate how people compare this to that.

A) That movement had more people supporting it.

Actually I would argue otherwise because this is specifically freedom of spech we are talking about..

B) They were fighting for much more.

Thats debatable as well, you can't measure either one both are extremely important in different ways.

This is really insignigicant to the greater amount of the population. The others that actually do care, care very little either way. They will only care if this adds fuel to the dying flame of intolerance, which it more than likely will.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="muscleserge"] And turn many new yorkers against muslims and islam, it isn't the most popular religion these days with western europe and even Russia, if they do procede with it it would cost them alot, So is it really worth it?muscleserge

.......... The banning of Jim Crow Laws and creating/allowing segregated schools in the 50's was vastely unpopular in many areas.. So yes it is worth it.. To me it speaks of hypocrisy, afterall didn't what Bush say is "they hate us for our freedoms"?

Geeze people its NOT RIGHT ON TOP OF GROUND ZERO FOR THE last time.. Its a community center ACROSS street that has a small mosque in it.. Its not on Ground zero and it is not exactly a MOSQUE either.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="muscleserge"] The idea of a mosque by ground zero is quite different to jim crow, nobody is denying them practicing their religion. The world isn't perfect, sure there are these freedoms, but other things should be taken into consideration, this is just how the world works.InEMplease

Geeze people its NOT RIGHT ON TOP OF GROUND ZERO FOR THE last time.. Its a community center ACROSS street that has a small mosque in it.. Its not on Ground zero and it is not exactly a MOSQUE either.

Like that really makes a difference to any of us.

The KKK can still march, people may find it distasteful, but its their right.. It always seems like people are so fond of these supposed freedoms like the first amendment, till they are incovnienced by them.. Furthermore your going to have to explain the morality of it.. Because a rogue group of extremists that don't represent the Islamic majority attacked on 9/11.. The Community center built are not related witht hat what so ever.. Do you think this kind of reaction would be the same that a few Christian extremists bombed a building kiling hundreds, do you think there would be uproar of a church being built across teh street? Of course not.

[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]Anyone else find it funny a country that prides itself on freedom's, considers this to be an issue? Doesn't anyone else question, why? Just sayin'. Democracy is great, ain't it? I mean it's pretty faulty in the US yet they seem bent on spreading it across nations in the Middle East. Get it right in your own nation first. InEMplease

This whole goddam ordeal is in the past and starting to be fotgotten. There is no reason to do this other than to anger whoever can and will be angered.

And those people need to be illuminated by the public for the biggots they are that can't tell the difference between the attacks of 9/11 extremists and the peaceful islamic worshipers that have lived in the United States for decades or all of their lives.

[QUOTE="Haziqonfire"]Anyone else find it funny a country that prides itself on freedom's, considers this to be an issue? Doesn't anyone else question, why? Just sayin'. Democracy is great, ain't it? I mean it's pretty faulty in the US yet they seem bent on spreading it across nations in the Middle East. Get it right in your own nation first. InEMplease

This whole goddam ordeal is in the past and starting to be fotgotten. There is no reason to do this other than to anger whoever can and will be angered.

Then again it's the US and I'm pretty used to it. Wouldn't want to get ignorant Caucasians mad now would we? Yeah..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

Like that really makes a difference to any of us.

InEMplease

The KKK can still march, people may find it distasteful, but its their right.. It always seems like people are so fond of these supposed freedoms like the first amendment, till they are incovnienced by them.. Furthermore your going to have to explain the morality of it.. Because a rogue group of extremists that don't represent the Islamic majority attacked on 9/11.. The Community center built are not related witht hat what so ever.. Do you think this kind of reaction would be the same that a few Christian extremists bombed a building kiling hundreds, do you think there would be uproar of a church being built across teh street? Of course not.

I literally do not care about any religion, whatsoever. What I care about is stupid decision making. These people, like the KKK, know that they have the right to do this. They also know it will bring hate towards them and their people. However, unlike the KKK, the intolerance and ignorance towards these people, created by terrorism on 9/11/2001, is slowly diminishing. This can, and most likely will, only re-incite any intolerance that has already died off.

Actually this is false, there is huge uproar about mosques built ANY where in the United States.. These people need to be publically embarrassed if they are going to act so irrationally...

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="InEMplease"]

I literally do not care about any religion, whatsoever. What I care about is stupid decision making. These people, like the KKK, know that they have the right to do this. They also know it will bring hate towards them and their people. However, unlike the KKK, the intolerance and ignorance towards these people, created by terrorism on 9/11/2001, is slowly diminishing. This can, and most likely will, only re-incite any intolerance that has already died off.

InEMplease

Actually this is false, there is huge uproar about mosques built ANY where in the United States.. These people need to be publically embarrassed if they are going to act so irrationally...

Not as huge an uproar as this will create. People like that are already the embarrassment of out nation. Why embarrass us further?

Because I love my nation, and to be the best it can be you must be as critical as possible.. That means ousting biggots into public embarassment.

Nothing else to say...Ringx55

Is that legendary director Orson Welles? Pardon my ignorance...

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] This isn't about if they have the right to do it...No one is arguing that point...muscleserge

So then what is your argument? That allowing people to exercise their Constitutional rights is placating them?

I'd personally be more inclined to accuse people of being "Islamophobes" for suggesting sinister mtovies to the community center in the first place. The idea that they're doing this to piss off Americans actually seems flat-out ridiculous, if you ask me.

Its because they already have.muscleserge

And I'd say that that's simply because of islamophobia.

Do you think anyone would have a problem with this if it was a church instead of a mosque?

[QUOTE="Deano"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

What a moron. European Christians crack me up, they finally stop hate speech against Jews and Christians of other sects, and now they turn all their anger against Muslims. Anyone who uses the phrase Ïslamicization of Europe" instantly loses all credibility with me, nothing but unabashed hate speech.

theone86

pat condell is infact an atheist.

nice job blaming christians though

Really just put the Christians in there for ease of sentence construction

Haha, yeah, I stopped there. Ease of sentence construction? You're a moron.