Burka ban

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The burqa is not in the Quran dude. And you can think what you like.....but Muslims do say it's not part of the religion. Who should I believe?Nibroc420

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

That is not the point of argument. The poster who I am currently arguing with has referred to the wearing of the burka as merely a cultural practice without having to do with religion. And while one could arguably state that it is a security risk, that was not why the law was passed. "Cultural preservation" was.

The burqa is not in the Quran dude. And you can think what you like.....but Muslims do say it's not part of the religion. Who should I believe?LJS9502_basic

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

charlesdarwin55

It's sort of out of the ordinary for a person to walk into a bank wearing a ski-mask. Usually a security guard will ask you to remove it. However, with a burqa, you can simply say "You're obstructing my religious rights" or whatnot, and suddenly you're allowed into the bank with totally anonymity.

It's a security risk, and if people want to migrate to a new country, they need to abide by that countries rules. If the Burqa is a security risk, by all means, ban it.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

I suppose that certain practices that conform to the Qu'ran is merely part of the culture then. Interesting coincidence. And what of those who practice Islam in accord with certain sects of Islamic theology mandating the wearing of a burka? Yeah, definitely a religious practice. And "many a Christian" will state that going to church isn't a religious practice. According to your line of reasoning, they don't know their own religion then. (of course if we take into account that religious belief varies within certain religious groups...)

Also, I doubt you have spoken to "many" burka-wearing Muslims, so I can't accept that claim.

coolbeans90

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

charlesdarwin55

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The burqa is not in the Quran dude. And you can think what you like.....but Muslims do say it's not part of the religion. Who should I believe?LJS9502_basic

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

Because one can use religion as a justification doesn't necessitate such is the case. Islamic theological positions (in some sects) on the matter seems to indicate otherwise. (according to some, it is part of their belief) The Muslims' theological opinions which you've read more than likely are not the same as those who support burka wearing, and I've read things about the garment indicates that it is indeed a religious practice. Laws against murder existed before the Ten Commandments, that doesn't mean that murder isn't against Christianity. Just a correlation. I suppose that you are correct that this discussion is unlikely to result in a change opinions on the matter, so I suppose that further pursuing this line of discussion does not seem that it will be productive. On that note, I suppose that I'll simply agree to disagree.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

It is according to some. And to those people, it is, by very definition, a religious belief. And some Muslims say that it isn't part of their religion. Others do. One can believe both, as their religious beliefs differ.

coolbeans90

Because one can use religion as a justification doesn't necessitate such is the case. Islamic theological positions (in some sects) on the matter seems to indicate otherwise. (according to some, it is part of their belief) The Muslims' theological opinions which you've read more than likely are not the same as those who support burka wearing, and I've read things about the garment indicates that it is indeed a religious practice. Laws against murder existed before the Ten Commandments, that doesn't mean that murder isn't against Christianity. Just a correlation. I suppose that you are correct that this discussion is unlikely to result in a change opinions on the matter, so I suppose that further pursuing this line of discussion does not seem that it will be productive. On that note, I suppose that I'll simply agree to disagree.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Right. One can use religion as justification. That does NOT mean it's actually religious...which is the difference...and you aren't getting that. I said before because a culture also has a shared belief system they can seem to be mixed. But again...the actual garment is not an inherent part of the religion. In fact....it existed BEFORE the Islamic religion and was cultural to a specific area....to wit: "There is evidence that this type of dress was worn by some Arab and Persian women long before Islam. For example, the Roman African Christian Tertullian, writing in Chapter 17 of The Veiling of Virgins around 200 AD, praises the modesty of those "pagan women of Arabia" who "not only cover their head, but their whole face...preferring to enjoy half the light with one eye rather than prostituting their whole face." Thus, if it existed BEFORE the religion....it is definitely NOT a religious garment...but again....cultural. You continuing to argue with me is not going to change what I've heard from Muslims and from what I've read about the actual garment.LJS9502_basic

Because one can use religion as a justification doesn't necessitate such is the case. Islamic theological positions (in some sects) on the matter seems to indicate otherwise. (according to some, it is part of their belief) The Muslims' theological opinions which you've read more than likely are not the same as those who support burka wearing, and I've read things about the garment indicates that it is indeed a religious practice. Laws against murder existed before the Ten Commandments, that doesn't mean that murder isn't against Christianity. Just a correlation. I suppose that you are correct that this discussion is unlikely to result in a change opinions on the matter, so I suppose that further pursuing this line of discussion does not seem that it will be productive. On that note, I suppose that I'll simply agree to disagree.

Certain religious fellows incorporated the practice into religious dogma.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Because one can use religion as a justification doesn't necessitate such is the case. Islamic theological positions (in some sects) on the matter seems to indicate otherwise. (according to some, it is part of their belief) The Muslims' theological opinions which you've read more than likely are not the same as those who support burka wearing, and I've read things about the garment indicates that it is indeed a religious practice. Laws against murder existed before the Ten Commandments, that doesn't mean that murder isn't against Christianity. Just a correlation. I suppose that you are correct that this discussion is unlikely to result in a change opinions on the matter, so I suppose that further pursuing this line of discussion does not seem that it will be productive. On that note, I suppose that I'll simply agree to disagree.

coolbeans90

Certain religious fellows incorporated the practice into religious dogma.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] So nothing about the fact that the culture existed BEFORE the religion. Okay then....LJS9502_basic

Certain religious fellows incorporated the practice into religious dogma.

Garments that cover the face is said by some Islamic scholars to be part of the Qu'ran.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Certain religious fellows incorporated the practice into religious dogma.

coolbeans90

Garments that cover the face is said by some Islamic scholars to be part of the Qu'ran.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No they didn't. It's not in the Quran...of which the dogma comes. It's custom...it's culture. It's not religious.LJS9502_basic

Garments that cover the face is said by some Islamic scholars to be part of the Qu'ran.

Well, that would require substantiation. I normally take people's religious convictions at their word.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Certain religious fellows incorporated the practice into religious dogma.

coolbeans90

Garments that cover the face is said by some Islamic scholars to be part of the Qu'ran.

That's their own conjecture. Every muslim has to dress modestly [regardless of their gender], but nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that women have to wear a burqa or a hijab. It's entirely possible for a muslim woman to dress modestly without any hijab or burqa.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No they didn't. It's not in the Quran...of which the dogma comes. It's custom...it's culture. It's not religious.dracula_16

Garments that cover the face is said by some Islamic scholars to be part of the Qu'ran.

That's their own conjecture. Every muslim has to dress modestly [regardless of their gender], but nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that women have to wear a burqa or a hijab. It's entirely possible for a muslim woman to dress modestly without any hijab or burqa.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No they didn't. It's not in the Quran...of which the dogma comes. It's custom...it's culture. It's not religious.dracula_16

Garments that cover the face is said by some Islamic scholars to be part of the Qu'ran.

That's their own conjecture. Every muslim has to dress modestly [regardless of their gender], but nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that women have to wear a burqa or a hijab. It's entirely possible for a muslim woman to dress modestly without any hijab or burqa.

That is of course their own conjecture, but still religiously held convictions nevertheless.

[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Yeah...if it clashes with the new culture. Remember...you (generic) choose to move.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="worlock77"] So you would have said the same to all those Irish, Italian, German, etc immigrants to the US back in the day? After-all, their cultures clashed with the American culture of the day.worlock77

[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] They adapted. LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]No, their descendants after a couple of generations adapted.worlock77

Which of those did not follow US law?

[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]No. Those ethnic groups you mentioned adapted....firstly and most importantly by learning the common language of the country. I don't know what makes you assume they didn't adapt. But in the early days of immigration.....immigrants tried very hard to assimilate to the new culture. That doesn't mean they couldn't speak their language in their home nor practice their culture. But they abided by the rules and customs of the US as well.

LJS9502_basic

Which of those did not follow US law?

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

For starters, the reason for which they were banned were different. Moreover, the Burka was a measure targeting specific outfits of a specific religion. The other is a general measure.

coolbeans90

The burka in and of itself was the reason the legislation was passed, for the purpose of "cultural preservation." How some people manage to convince themselves that this isn't the case when the lawmakers in this instance have clearly described their motives baffles me. And an analogy, for it to be valid, must hold constant relevant aspects of two scenarios.