Dear Mods, this long derailed crazy thread needs a lock please :) Thank you

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]It's not deceit that keeps secrets...it's the sensitivity of the information. You cannot effectively run nor protect your country if all your information is open to the public. Would you want your enemies knowing your weapons capabilities? Access codes? Troop movements? Technological advances? LJS9502_basic

I was referencing more political decisions as opposed to damaging revelations of military strategy. The latter could I'm sure be referenced re: my previous post – the truth of military operations detailing the reality of war I think is acceptable; vital strategic information would not hold up to a code of journalistic practice. Wikileaks is I believe keeping to the former and not detailing the latter.

It seems it's more provided affirmation of what politicians think of each other rather than many great revelations. Is it important? As information maybe not; as a device to help forge better relations with the public though, maybe so.

As for front line journalism, it can be a little contrived (think Jessica Lynch). Wikileaks at least provides us with a far more candid and honest perspective of those taking part in the war.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

I was referencing more political decisions as opposed to damaging revelations of military strategy. The latter could I'm sure be referenced re: my previous post – the truth of military operations detailing the reality of war I think is acceptable; vital strategic information would not hold up to a code of journalistic practice. Wikileaks is I believe keeping to the former and not detailing the latter.

poptart

It seems it's more provided affirmation of what politicians think of each other rather than many great revelations. Is it important? As information maybe not; as a device to help forge better relations with the public though, maybe so.

As for front line journalism, it can be a little contrived (think Jessica Lynch). Wikileaks at least provides us with a far more candid and honest perspective of those taking part in the war.

I seriously and honestly hope that he is found guilty. This guy needs to be put away for Life. I HATE this guy with a passion for his actions.bbkkristian

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"]I seriously and honestly hope that he is found guilty. This guy needs to be put away for Life. I HATE this guy with a passion for his actions.Ace6301

Dude's a Bond villain IRL. He looks and is called like one at least...

Its surprises me how much american's are opposed to free speech.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I don't actually think there are any secrets about the the wars since at least the Viet Nam war when it became available for people to watch on tv. Is it important that we know what diplomats think of each other? Of course not....LJS9502_basic

It seems it's more provided affirmation of what politicians think of each other rather than many great revelations. Is it important? As information maybe not; as a device to help forge better relations with the public though, maybe so.

As for front line journalism, it can be a little contrived (think Jessica Lynch). Wikileaks at least provides us with a far more candid and honest perspective of those taking part in the war.

Ah well they're all grown ups – a belittling or derogatory comment about a particular individual or country isn't going to cause mass upheaval I'm sure, not that the person or country in question would be surprised about a particular opinion either. Sure maybe a little damaged pride, but no country as yet as stopped exporting to the US because of a particular diplomat's opinion. Nothing a cup of tea and lemon slice won't sort out!

Its surprises me how much American's are opposed to free speech.

htekemerald

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

It seems it's more provided affirmation of what politicians think of each other rather than many great revelations. Is it important? As information maybe not; as a device to help forge better relations with the public though, maybe so.

As for front line journalism, it can be a little contrived (think Jessica Lynch). Wikileaks at least provides us with a far more candid and honest perspective of those taking part in the war.

poptart

Ah well they're all grown ups – a belittling or derogatory comment about a particular individual or country isn't going to cause mass upheaval I'm sure, not that the person or country in question would be surprised about a particular opinion either. Sure maybe a little damaged pride, but no country as yet as stopped exporting to the US because of a particular diplomat's opinion. Nothing a cup of tea and lemon slice won't sort out!

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

It seems it's more provided affirmation of what politicians think of each other rather than many great revelations. Is it important? As information maybe not; as a device to help forge better relations with the public though, maybe so.

As for front line journalism, it can be a little contrived (think Jessica Lynch). Wikileaks at least provides us with a far more candid and honest perspective of those taking part in the war.

Ah well they're all grown ups – a belittling or derogatory comment about a particular individual or country isn't going to cause mass upheaval I'm sure, not that the person or country in question would be surprised about a particular opinion either. Sure maybe a little damaged pride, but no country as yet as stopped exporting to the US because of a particular diplomat's opinion. Nothing a cup of tea and lemon slice won't sort out!

If governments were generally more open and honest with their people, this kind of stuff wouldn't be an issue.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Better relations with the public at the expense of foreign relations? Might not be the best trade off when you need help....LJS9502_basic

Ah well they're all grown ups – a belittling or derogatory comment about a particular individual or country isn't going to cause mass upheaval I'm sure, not that the person or country in question would be surprised about a particular opinion either. Sure maybe a little damaged pride, but no country as yet as stopped exporting to the US because of a particular diplomat's opinion. Nothing a cup of tea and lemon slice won't sort out!

Well in business there really is rarely such a thing as a favour either - recompense will be expected/agreed to in return for favours given, therefore if it makes commercial sense for a country to do it then wikileaks would have little impact I would have thought...

If governments were generally more open and honest with their people, this kind of stuff wouldn't be an issue.

raynimrod

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

Its surprises me how much American's are opposed to free speech.

LJS9502_basic

If any foreign government learned anything from these documents I'll eat my hat and donate 10 bucks to their respective intelligence agencies.

No, the only group that learned anything from these documents was the general public, and some people like you seem to want to keep the government from being accountable to the world and to its own people.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

Ah well they're all grown ups – a belittling or derogatory comment about a particular individual or country isn't going to cause mass upheaval I'm sure, not that the person or country in question would be surprised about a particular opinion either. Sure maybe a little damaged pride, but no country as yet as stopped exporting to the US because of a particular diplomat's opinion. Nothing a cup of tea and lemon slice won't sort out!

poptart

Well in business there really is rarely such a thing as a favour either - recompense will be expected/agreed to in return for favours given, therefore if it makes commercial sense for a country to do it then wikileaks would have little impact I would have thought...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

Its surprises me how much American's are opposed to free speech.

htekemerald

If any foreign government learned anything from these documents I'll eat my hat and donate 10 bucks to their respective intelligence agencies.

No, the only group that learned anything from these documents was the general public, and some people like you seem to want to keep the government from being accountable to the world and to its own people.

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"]I seriously and honestly hope that he is found guilty. This guy needs to be put away for Life. I HATE this guy with a passion for his actions.Ace6301

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Better relations with the public at the expense of foreign relations? Might not be the best trade off when you need help....lordreaven

Ah well they're all grown ups – a belittling or derogatory comment about a particular individual or country isn't going to cause mass upheaval I'm sure, not that the person or country in question would be surprised about a particular opinion either. Sure maybe a little damaged pride, but no country as yet as stopped exporting to the US because of a particular diplomat's opinion. Nothing a cup of tea and lemon slice won't sort out!

Sure - why not :)

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Business is quite different than needing an ally......business can hurt the exporter and they can't have that. But when it comes to favors.....whole different ball game.LJS9502_basic

Well in business there really is rarely such a thing as a favour either - recompense will be expected/agreed to in return for favours given, therefore if it makes commercial sense for a country to do it then wikileaks would have little impact I would have thought...

Government/business - many parallels and similar principles.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

Well in business there really is rarely such a thing as a favour either - recompense will be expected/agreed to in return for favours given, therefore if it makes commercial sense for a country to do it then wikileaks would have little impact I would have thought...

poptart

Government/business - many parallels and similar principles.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="bbkkristian"]I seriously and honestly hope that he is found guilty. This guy needs to be put away for Life. I HATE this guy with a passion for his actions.bbkkristian

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"][QUOTE="Ace6301"] What exactly has he done worthy of hate from the general public? No ones died from his actions yet and the pentagon doesn't think anyone will.Ace6301

[QUOTE="raynimrod"]

If governments were generally more open and honest with their people, this kind of stuff wouldn't be an issue.

LJS9502_basic

They might not need to know that specific information, sure. But the government(s) of the world are still completely accountable to their people and as such, should provide more transparency in the way they run the country, including their dealings with other countries and businesses. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to provide detailed information about military status and strategy, but there need to be fewer secrets where other things are concerned.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Yeah. But I'm not talking about business. I'm talking foreign relations..ie allies...getting alone...working together.LJS9502_basic

Government/business - many parallels and similar principles.

Maybe nepotism does exist to some degree in politics as it does in business, but really I wouldn't expect a leader of a country to offer a favour without a degree of short or long-term self gain. Everything's got an angle. I think the potential damage caused by wikipedia's leaks are pretty mild really. If in the long-term if encourages more honest a relationship with the public at home then perhaps the positives will outweigh the negatives... Either way it's pure speculation at this point....

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="raynimrod"]

If governments were generally more open and honest with their people, this kind of stuff wouldn't be an issue.

raynimrod

They might not need to know that specific information, sure. But the government(s) of the world are still completely accountable to their people and as such, should provide more transparency in the way they run the country, including their dealings with other countries and businesses. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to provide detailed information about military status and strategy, but there need to be fewer secrets where other things are concerned.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="bbkkristian"] Threatening to release a "Poison Pill" Document if he is arrested or killed is a good thing?? :shock:LJS9502_basic

Telling people there will be repercussions if you are killed is extortion?

This thread just keeps getting better.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

Government/business - many parallels and similar principles.

poptart

Maybe nepotism does exist to some degree in politics as it does in business, but really I wouldn't expect a leader of a country to offer a favour without a degree of short or long-term self gain. Everything's got an angle. I think the potential damage caused by wikipedia's leaks are pretty mild really. If in the long-term if encourages more honest a relationship with the public at home then perhaps the positives will outweigh the negatives... Either way it's pure speculation at this point....

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="bbkkristian"] Threatening to release a "Poison Pill" Document if he is arrested or killed is a good thing?? :shock:LJS9502_basic

Considering death threats he's had, I would say more self-protection than extortion. I would do the same...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"]Depends what's inside of it. htekemerald

Telling people there will be repercussions if you are killed is extortion?

This thread just keeps getting better.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"]Depends what's inside of it. poptart

Considering death threats he's had, I would say more self-protection than extortion. I would do the same...

Yea well if he's a sexual deviant/criminal then he deserves to be charged. If he was the one who illegally obtained those documents, then he should be charged for that too.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Still smacks of extortion....no matter what is inside.

LJS9502_basic

Considering death threats he's had, I would say more self-protection than extortion. I would do the same...

[QUOTE="poptart"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not necessarily. In business there is always a balancing of give and take for both. But with government...not always. Sometimes it's done more for the relationship. If the relationship is destroyed...not so much. But still...I fail to see how letting people know what diplomats think of each other is necessary to be published. There IS no benefit and there IS a possible backlash....LJS9502_basic

Maybe nepotism does exist to some degree in politics as it does in business, but really I wouldn't expect a leader of a country to offer a favour without a degree of short or long-term self gain. Everything's got an angle. I think the potential damage caused by wikipedia's leaks are pretty mild really. If in the long-term if encourages more honest a relationship with the public at home then perhaps the positives will outweigh the negatives... Either way it's pure speculation at this point....

Perhaps it's exactly that - the fact the government is never transparent, however people's expectations change. The gen Y of the world seem to show great support for what he's doing. Maybe us Gen X-er's and beyond are happy/comfortable with this lack of transparency - something those younger generations won't stand for. Maybe they're right to want to understand what the moves cogs and wheels of government...

As for the need for it, the great support around the world he has suggests otherwise, or at least it polarises opinions...

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] There is no such thing as absolute free speech...and maybe just maybe Americans don't like the idea of a foreign national getting government secrets. Couldn't be that though...everyone knows we want the world to know all our secrets.:|LJS9502_basic

If any foreign government learned anything from these documents I'll eat my hat and donate 10 bucks to their respective intelligence agencies.

No, the only group that learned anything from these documents was the general public, and some people like you seem to want to keep the government from being accountable to the world and to its own people.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

If any foreign government learned anything from these documents I'll eat my hat and donate 10 bucks to their respective intelligence agencies.

No, the only group that learned anything from these documents was the general public, and some people like you seem to want to keep the government from being accountable to the world and to its own people.

htekemerald

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Still smacks of extortion....no matter what is inside.

LJS9502_basic

Telling people there will be repercussions if you are killed is extortion?

This thread just keeps getting better.

Luckily the LJS9502_basic's dictionaries definition of extortion is not commonly used, otherwise we all would be guilty of extortion many times throughout our life.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="poptart"]

Considering death threats he's had, I would say more self-protection than extortion. I would do the same...

Ace6301

"Done Nothing Wrong??" If he was a US Citizen and I was president, i would call this TREASON! He's putting files out that shouldn't be, that is government's business, if people really wanted to find out, then they should get a job there! :x

[QUOTE="htekemerald"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] There is no such thing as absolute free speech...and maybe just maybe Americans don't like the idea of a foreign national getting government secrets. Couldn't be that though...everyone knows we want the world to know all our secrets.:|LJS9502_basic

If any foreign government learned anything from these documents I'll eat my hat and donate 10 bucks to their respective intelligence agencies.

No, the only group that learned anything from these documents was the general public, and some people like you seem to want to keep the government from being accountable to the world and to its own people.

What about Hillary Clinton asking diplomats to break the law and spy on the UN?

And no "everyone does it!" is not a valid counter to that.

[QUOTE="lordreaven"] 1. Your using a worst case scenario for something trivial, as these "secrets" Where'nt very sercret to begin with, if it where troop formations, plans and such then I would understand, but it wasn't. 2. It is moot as by saying "The USA has more fredoms than the UK" as neither can truely be compared as more "free". My point was that touting freedom as your countries atribute is meaningless when barely 60 years ago some of those rights got taken away for some people.thegerg

1- Yes, I am using a serious case scenario. That doesn't change the fact that a messanger is obligated to act responsibly with information which he is given, contrary to your previous post.

2- Those 2 can absolutly be compared in terms of freedoms, it's quite simple actually. You still have yet to explain how the fact that there were violations of freedom in the past makes recognition of current freedoms moot.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] A couple people may have said death threats but they won't do it. It's hyperbole. Nonetheless...it's still extortion whether you would do it or not.bbkkristian

"Done Nothing Wrong??" If he was a US Citizen and I was president, i would call this TREASON! He's putting files out that shouldn't be, that is government's business, if people really wanted to find out, then they should get a job there! :x

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="htekemerald"]

If any foreign government learned anything from these documents I'll eat my hat and donate 10 bucks to their respective intelligence agencies.

No, the only group that learned anything from these documents was the general public, and some people like you seem to want to keep the government from being accountable to the world and to its own people.

Pixel-Pirate

What about Hillary Clinton asking diplomats to break the law and spy on the UN?

And no "everyone does it!" is not a valid counter to that.

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"][QUOTE="Ace6301"] So because he's using documents the government doesn't want revealed for insurance he's evil? No question? How do we know the government isn't doing something behind the publics back that we should know about? He's done nothing wrong yet, why call him evil.Ace6301

Maybe the government shouldn't have so many secrets then? Also this guy is the messenger, he isn't some spy or anything. Then how did he get this information? He was caught computer hacking at a young age but he wasn't prosecuted! He's given documents and he releases them the say way a news station would. The difference is, the news station would be sued by the government because they are releasing it documents they shouldn't be. He is NOT a U.S. citizens, infact i don't even know where his citizenship lies. If they're going to deal with someone they should deal with the guy who is leaking the information. Thats him... He is the owner of the website and is responsible for anything posted on there. And by threatening to release that "Poison Pill" document, I think that means that he has it.Thus far no one has died But People are in danger because of their names released on the file and their ties to Afghan and other operations. and as I said the pentagon doesn't think anyone will because of his actions. Just because Obama didn't say anything, doesn't mean the pentagon doesn't (no link...) Amazing how many people advocate the shooting of the messenger. He is the one that caught the public eye, didn't he? If he's the messenger, why am I not hearing this on the news or even on the internet?

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="bbkkristian"] Because these documents are release on the World Wide web. That means if these documents show secret treaties or something that could offend other nations then we are going to have a problem. They are secret for a reason. Also this guy is releasing documents with names of government officials and officers in the military that had association with the war on terror; afghan, that could make them targets for terrorism. He's indirectly attacking us.bbkkristian

Maybe the government shouldn't have so many secrets then? Also this guy is the messenger, he isn't some spy or anything. Then how did he get this information? He was caught computer hacking at a young age but he wasn't prosecuted! He's given documents and he releases them the say way a news station would. The difference is, the news station would be sued by the government because they are releasing it documents they shouldn't be. He is NOT a U.S. citizens, infact i don't even know where his citizenship lies. If they're going to deal with someone they should deal with the guy who is leaking the information. Thats him... He is the owner of the website and is responsible for anything posted on there. And by threatening to release that "Poison Pill" document, I think that means that he has it.Thus far no one has died But People are in danger because of their names released on the file and their ties to Afghan and other operations. and as I said the pentagon doesn't think anyone will because of his actions. Just because Obama didn't say anything, doesn't mean the pentagon doesn't (no link...) Amazing how many people advocate the shooting of the messenger. He is the one that caught the public eye, didn't he? If he's the messenger, why am I not hearing this on the news or even on the internet?