Do Transexuals have the right to go out with straight people not telling them?

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]What does that have to do with it? Why would you want to be someone that violent? Even if not a transsexual...that's a relationship to avoid. Nonetheless, that is something that should divulged and up to the individual to proceed or not.,LJS9502_basic

Uh...better safe than sorry? I don't understand this question.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]It's quite obvious that you don't have any sensible reason.GreySeal9

What ethical reasons?

And why should your personal ethics have any bearing on the actions of other people?

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] You seem to be quite controversial lately to OT.:PLJS9502_basic

Not really OT. Most of civilized society frowns on open support of genocide.

[QUOTE="toast_burner"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] Ethical reasons are good enough for myself.SolidSnake35

What if someone's unhappy as a B cup and decides they want to be a D cup? Shouldn't they just be taught to love themselves for who they are, rather than being allowed to change their breast size?

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Dude this is totally different. No.....no one should be abused because of who they are. But you should be upfront with potential mates. This isn't a minor issue. And if the person doesn't accept that...it's better for both to move along to find new mates.GreySeal9

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

That is why people have to be discriminating about who they approach.

A transsexual should try their damnest to approach people who they can tell are open to the idea of dating a transsexual and there are ways of doing that.

Becoming a transsexual does not grant one psychic powers.

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

My mistake, you condone violence in certain instances. That doesn't make it better, sir.

worlock77

The law doesn't make exceptions for crimes of passion. It's still a crime and you're still punished for it.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Yes. As can negativity black men face with skin heads or homosexuals face with homophobes.

Pixel-Pirate

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="toast_burner"] what is ethical about forcing someone into living in a form they don't want, when there are ways to fix it?MasterC5

I've been on hormones for 11 months, and I'm happier then I've ever been, what makes you think I'd be better off just dealing with it?

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] You seem to be quite controversial lately to OT.:PLJS9502_basic

In SolidSnake's case, it is simply a case of shooting down silliness.

If you have provocative and silly opinions, you will be aggressively responded to. That is life. It is not exclusive to OT.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

There are legal ramifications. I remember a UK case where a man withheld the fact he had HIV and had sex with two women. They granted consent but said had they know he had HIV, they would not have consented. His defense was that he asked if they wanted to use a condom and since they said no he assumed that they accepted all the risk that comes with unprotected sex (this was an ingenious defense and that lawyer should get a clap) but he was still convicted anyway.

Fact is, replace Aids with transgendered and you would have the same scenario and I assume you could be brought to court for rape by deception.

Espada12

It's not quite the same thing. HIV is a serious, potentially deadly, affliction that can be spread from person to person via sex. Being transgendered is not.

The point isn't about the deadliness about HIV, it's about gaining consent by omitting details about yourself. Omission can be deception and had the other person known you were a transsexual, and would not have granted consent based on those grounds, you would be deceiving them especially since you know that many people won't grant consent based on that (much like HIV).

Sorry, but I'm not really comfortable with the whole "rape by deception" reasoning. If a person isn't honest about their age, or their employment status, or even their hair color, should they be prosecuted?

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Dude this is totally different. No.....no one should be abused because of who they are. But you should be upfront with potential mates. This isn't a minor issue. And if the person doesn't accept that...it's better for both to move along to find new mates.jimmyjammer69

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"] It sure does, there are many acceptable instances where violence is accepted...or at least it is understood. Even when it is considered a crime, even the law makes certain exceptions for instance crimes of passion. In the case a man was lied to and slept with another man, yeah, I would say it's understandable such a betrayal would lead to a violent reaction.Renevent42

The law doesn't make exceptions for crimes of passion. It's still a crime and you're still punished for it.

A lesser sentence for extenuating circumstances is a far cry from being acceptable.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

Pixel-Pirate

That is why people have to be discriminating about who they approach.

A transsexual should try their damnest to approach people who they can tell are open to the idea of dating a transsexual and there are ways of doing that.

Becoming a transsexual does not grant one psychic powers.

Did I say that it does?

Like I said, there are ways to determine who is more likely to open to the idea of dating a transsexual. You don't have to be psychic.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

Pixel-Pirate

That is why people have to be discriminating about who they approach.

A transsexual should try their damnest to approach people who they can tell are open to the idea of dating a transsexual and there are ways of doing that.

Becoming a transsexual does not grant one psychic powers.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="toast_burner"] what is ethical about forcing someone into living in a form they don't want, when there are ways to fix it?worlock77

What if someone's unhappy as a B cup and decides they want to be a D cup? Shouldn't they just be taught to love themselves for who they are, rather than being allowed to change their breast size?

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] I wouldn't call that a fix. I think the ethical thing would be to teach them to love themselves for who they are. I don't see how having a makeshift vagina can make someone any happier than that.SolidSnake35

I've been on hormones for 11 months, and I'm happier then I've ever been, what makes you think I'd be better off just dealing with it?

[QUOTE="MoetWitMedusa"]

if one of those weirdos do that to a straight person they deserve to go to jail.

MasterC5

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

The law doesn't make exceptions for crimes of passion. It's still a crime and you're still punished for it.

worlock77

A lesser sentence for extenuating circumstances is a far cry from being acceptable.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] Yeah I noticed. I didn't mean it to happen... but you say what you're inclined to believe and then certain people get quite aggressive. They force reasons out of you until horns grow from your head.Pixel-Pirate

Not really OT. Most of civilized society frowns on open support of genocide.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] I wouldn't call that a fix. I think the ethical thing would be to teach them to love themselves for who they are. I don't see how having a makeshift vagina can make someone any happier than that.SolidSnake35

What if someone's unhappy as a B cup and decides they want to be a D cup? Shouldn't they just be taught to love themselves for who they are, rather than being allowed to change their breast size?

So it doesn't appeal to your tastes. Why should everyone else be forced by law to adhere to what you like?

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

It's not quite the same thing. HIV is a serious, potentially deadly, affliction that can be spread from person to person via sex. Being transgendered is not.

worlock77

The point isn't about the deadliness about HIV, it's about gaining consent by omitting details about yourself. Omission can be deception and had the other person known you were a transsexual, and would not have granted consent based on those grounds, you would be deceiving them especially since you know that many people won't grant consent based on that (much like HIV).

Sorry, but I'm not really comfortable with the whole "rape by deception" reasoning. If a person isn't honest about their age, or their employment status, or even their hair color, should they be prosecuted?

It would probably have to be. At best we could narrow it down to anyone who has had any sort of body modification (piercings, tattoos, breast enlargement, etc) being required to by law. You would likely be unable to get a bill passed that only made it illegal for transgendered people to lie about their body since it'd be openly discriminating against one group of people and get shot down by human rights groups.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

I've been on hormones for 11 months, and I'm happier then I've ever been, what makes you think I'd be better off just dealing with it?

MasterC5

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Dude this is totally different. No.....no one should be abused because of who they are. But you should be upfront with potential mates. This isn't a minor issue. And if the person doesn't accept that...it's better for both to move along to find new mates.jimmyjammer69

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

We're talking about transgendered people not crossdressers. Your comparison isn't really relevant.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

Symphonycometh

EDIT: j/k

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Well OT does have certain ideas/opinions that they feel everyone else should conform with...SolidSnake35

Not really OT. Most of civilized society frowns on open support of genocide.

Liars aren't on the same level as Hitler.

[QUOTE="Renevent42"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

My mistake, you condone violence in certain instances. That doesn't make it better, sir.

Pixel-Pirate

I consider it the same and would hope you'd be put in prison if you ever did such a thing. Hopefully for a long time.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] Ethical reasons are good enough for myself.SolidSnake35

What ethical reasons?

And why should your personal ethics have any bearing on the actions of other people?

You avoided both questions.

I asked:

1. What are the ethical reasons 2?

2. Why do you think your personal ethical opinions should limit the rights of others? What pragmatic basis is there to deny transsexuals the option to change themselves if they see fit?

It's not about gaining social praise. It's about respecting people's freedoms.

[QUOTE="MasterC5"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] What was wrong to begin with?Symphonycometh

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]

I've been on hormones for 11 months, and I'm happier then I've ever been, what makes you think I'd be better off just dealing with it?

MasterC5

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"] It sure does, there are many acceptable instances where violence is accepted...or at least it is understood. Even when it is considered a crime, even the law makes certain exceptions for instance crimes of passion. In the case a man was lied to and slept with another man, yeah, I would say it's understandable such a betrayal would lead to a violent reaction.Gallion-Beast

I consider it the same and would hope you'd be put in prison if you ever did such a thing. Hopefully for a long time.

It's a valid thing to feel humiliated and violated over, so is a pie to the face. It is not a valid thing to get violent over.

[QUOTE="Symphonycometh"][QUOTE="MasterC5"]Uh gee, I never wanted a male body as long as I can remember. I always felt like a girl etc, but I'm sure this isn't a good enough reason though to you, I shouldn't expect you to understand the horrors of feeling trapped in your own flesh when you've never experienced it.

MasterC5

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

And if they are violent like a skin head would be to a black person and assault or murder you as soon as they find out they were attracted to a transgender person, well, that's okay!

Pixel-Pirate

We're talking about transgendered people not crossdressers. Your comparison isn't really relevant.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"] It sure does, there are many acceptable instances where violence is accepted...or at least it is understood. Even when it is considered a crime, even the law makes certain exceptions for instance crimes of passion. In the case a man was lied to and slept with another man, yeah, I would say it's understandable such a betrayal would lead to a violent reaction.Gallion-Beast

I consider it the same and would hope you'd be put in prison if you ever did such a thing. Hopefully for a long time.

I'd say it'd be a very stupid and dishonest thing to do. However that was never my stance that transsexuals should sleep and marry people without telling them.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]You'd think it would be in the black girl's interest, and well within her power, to find out whether her date was a neo nazi while she was still disguised as a white girl though. jimmyjammer69

We're talking about transgendered people not crossdressers. Your comparison isn't really relevant.

Who said anything about sleeping with them?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

The point isn't about the deadliness about HIV, it's about gaining consent by omitting details about yourself. Omission can be deception and had the other person known you were a transsexual, and would not have granted consent based on those grounds, you would be deceiving them especially since you know that many people won't grant consent based on that (much like HIV).

Pixel-Pirate

Sorry, but I'm not really comfortable with the whole "rape by deception" reasoning. If a person isn't honest about their age, or their employment status, or even their hair color, should they be prosecuted?

It would probably have to be. At best we could narrow it down to anyone who has had any sort of body modification (piercings, tattoos, breast enlargement, etc) being required to by law. You would likely be unable to get a bill passed that only made it illegal for transgendered people to lie about their body since it'd be openly discriminating against one group of people and get shot down by human rights groups.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

What ethical reasons?

And why should your personal ethics have any bearing on the actions of other people?

GreySeal9

You avoided both questions.

I asked:

1. What are the ethical reasons 2?

2. Why do you think your personal ethical opinions should limit the rights of others? What pragmatic basis is there to deny transsexuals the option to change themselves if they see fit?

It's not about gaining social praise. It's about respecting people's freedoms.

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

We're talking about transgendered people not crossdressers. Your comparison isn't really relevant.

Pixel-Pirate

Who said anything about sleeping with them?

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Not really OT. Most of civilized society frowns on open support of genocide.

Pixel-Pirate

Liars aren't on the same level as Hitler.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] Because they are my ethics and so I should seek to apply them. I might as well not believe anything otherwise. Maybe you're happy to base your ethics around what will gain you social praise but I'm not.SolidSnake35

You avoided both questions.

I asked:

1. What are the ethical reasons 2?

2. Why do you think your personal ethical opinions should limit the rights of others? What pragmatic basis is there to deny transsexuals the option to change themselves if they see fit?

It's not about gaining social praise. It's about respecting people's freedoms.

"I think" isn't really a pragmatic basis. What pragmatic basis is there for limiting the freedom of others to do as they wish with their own body?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"] Because they are my ethics and so I should seek to apply them. I might as well not believe anything otherwise. Maybe you're happy to base your ethics around what will gain you social praise but I'm not.SolidSnake35

You avoided both questions.

I asked:

1. What are the ethical reasons 2?

2. Why do you think your personal ethical opinions should limit the rights of others? What pragmatic basis is there to deny transsexuals the option to change themselves if they see fit?

It's not about gaining social praise. It's about respecting people's freedoms.

No, you didn't state that because you've been in a constant state of deflection. The hilariously vague nature of ^this very post only re-enforces that.

You say that your "ethic" (which is based on your limited understanding of transsexuals) iis to teach them to be happy with the way they are, so why can't that be taught without taking away a personal freedom?

Why should what you think is the right thing to do have any bearing on one's personal freedom?

What reason, that goes beyond your own little opinions, that actually effects wider society, justifies taking away a personal freedom?

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Sorry, but I'm not really comfortable with the whole "rape by deception" reasoning. If a person isn't honest about their age, or their employment status, or even their hair color, should they be prosecuted?

l4dak47

It would probably have to be. At best we could narrow it down to anyone who has had any sort of body modification (piercings, tattoos, breast enlargement, etc) being required to by law. You would likely be unable to get a bill passed that only made it illegal for transgendered people to lie about their body since it'd be openly discriminating against one group of people and get shot down by human rights groups.

You probably should tell them before you get serious, as I suggested.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]It's your comparison, and yes, it kind of is. It's about the other person's perceptions in your argument, which has been all about safety. Like MrGeezer suggested earlier, a girl should find out who the hell she's about to sleep with if she's worried about the chance of him possibly murdering her.jimmyjammer69

Who said anything about sleeping with them?

It appears no one in this thread read half my posts. I suggested telling before you ever get that far. Infact I think it's the right thing to do. I however, do NOT think you should tell every drunk redneck in a bar who hits on you that you're transgender. That's just idiotic.

[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

I consider it the same and would hope you'd be put in prison if you ever did such a thing. Hopefully for a long time.

worlock77

It's a valid thing to feel humiliated and violated over, so is a pie to the face. It is not a valid thing to get violent over.

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

[QUOTE="Renevent42"] It sure does, there are many acceptable instances where violence is accepted...or at least it is understood. Even when it is considered a crime, even the law makes certain exceptions for instance crimes of passion. In the case a man was lied to and slept with another man, yeah, I would say it's understandable such a betrayal would lead to a violent reaction.Gallion-Beast

I consider it the same and would hope you'd be put in prison if you ever did such a thing. Hopefully for a long time.

They don't have to. But to lie to someone about something that important is pretty wrong.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

You avoided both questions.

I asked:

1. What are the ethical reasons 2?

2. Why do you think your personal ethical opinions should limit the rights of others? What pragmatic basis is there to deny transsexuals the option to change themselves if they see fit?

It's not about gaining social praise. It's about respecting people's freedoms.

worlock77

"I think" isn't really a pragmatic basis. What pragmatic basis is there for limiting the freedom of others to do as they wish with their own body?

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

It would probably have to be. At best we could narrow it down to anyone who has had any sort of body modification (piercings, tattoos, breast enlargement, etc) being required to by law. You would likely be unable to get a bill passed that only made it illegal for transgendered people to lie about their body since it'd be openly discriminating against one group of people and get shot down by human rights groups.

Pixel-Pirate

You probably should tell them before you get serious, as I suggested.

[QUOTE="Gallion-Beast"][QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

I consider it the same and would hope you'd be put in prison if you ever did such a thing. Hopefully for a long time.

worlock77

It's a valid thing to feel humiliated and violated over, so is a pie to the face. It is not a valid thing to get violent over.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

You avoided both questions.

I asked:

1. What are the ethical reasons 2?

2. Why do you think your personal ethical opinions should limit the rights of others? What pragmatic basis is there to deny transsexuals the option to change themselves if they see fit?

It's not about gaining social praise. It's about respecting people's freedoms.

GreySeal9

No, you didn't state that because you've been in a constant state of deflection. The hilariously vague nature of ^this very post only re-enforces that.

You say that your "ethic" (which is based on your limited understanding of transsexuals) iis to teach them to be happy with the way they are, so why can't that be taught without taking away a personal freedom?

Why should what you think is the right thing to do have any bearing on one's personal freedom?

What reason, that goes beyond your own little opinions, that actually effects wider society, justifies taking away a personal freedom?