Do you believe in all that the bible says - what about the part of the earth being 12,000 years old? - of there is such a part in the bible. I am just quoting zeitgiest on that.

Its an interesting point though. When I read the new testiment I thought that very little was actually said, so there was very little to disprove. But this figure (12,000), is almost unquestionally incorrect.

angryfodder

Have you ever told a lie? Yes Have you ever stolen anything? YesistyIee

Have you ever looked with lust? Yes Have you ever hated anyone? Yes Have you ever used God's name in vain? Like as a swear word? YesistyIee

[QUOTE="angryfodder"]

Do you believe in all that the bible says - what about the part of the earth being 12,000 years old? - of there is such a part in the bible. I am just quoting zeitgiest on that.

Its an interesting point though. When I read the new testiment I thought that very little was actually said, so there was very little to disprove. But this figure (12,000), is almost unquestionally incorrect.

Crushmaster

Did they just pluck this number out of thin air?

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"][QUOTE="angryfodder"]

Do you believe in all that the bible says - what about the part of the earth being 12,000 years old? - of there is such a part in the bible. I am just quoting zeitgiest on that.

Its an interesting point though. When I read the new testiment I thought that very little was actually said, so there was very little to disprove. But this figure (12,000), is almost unquestionally incorrect.

angryfodder

Did they just pluck this number out of thin air?

Since you've told a lie, what does that make you?
So, since you've stolen something, what does that make you?
Crushmaster

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"][QUOTE="angryfodder"]

Do you believe in all that the bible says - what about the part of the earth being 12,000 years old? - of there is such a part in the bible. I am just quoting zeitgiest on that.

Its an interesting point though. When I read the new testiment I thought that very little was actually said, so there was very little to disprove. But this figure (12,000), is almost unquestionally incorrect.

angryfodder

Did they just pluck this number out of thin air?

That date was arrived at by a compilation of genealogies from the Bible done by a Bishop named James Ussher. There is a wealth of evidence for a young earth, you just won't hear about it.

Here are a couple of sites that have a lot of evidence for a young earth.

www.icr.org

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Qooroo and angryfodder,

I refuse to discuss things with one that falsely accuses me making of personal attacks when I have not. The very person alleging this, has stated something to the effect in a prior post, that ones's beliefs are separate from the person and therefore, questioning a person's beliefs are not attacking them personally. Interesting irony isn't it? The Bible discussed this type of behavior. I choose not to get involved in discussion with one that practices it. It is also interesting that the one alleging these false personal attacks accused me of blaspheme for worshipping Jesus Christ, of endangering the Jews for referring to the Scriptures or Biblical history, but that is OK, right. Anything goes when a Christian is the target.

I have also never said that anyone is not free to post anything they want regarding their beliefs on these threads or challenge anything that they want. I find it ironic and interesting that non-believers are always complaining about Christians that discuss their faith in these threads, as the one complaining now has. All I have ever suggested is that if one does not like these discussions, rather than complain about them, they should just refrain from visiting them.

The following is adressed to Qooroo specifically.

That being said, think and believe whatever you want about me. While you are doing that, try and imagine how little I actually care what you, or any unbeliever may think of me. I will give you a hint. It is far smaller than the singularity, the "creator god" that naturalists put their faith in.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

I wish you well.

 

Qooroo

Can you actually cite evidence for these personal attacks? Beyond criticism of your belief structure? I will point out again that you regularly criticize other religions, and have in this thread used the phrase "mumbo-jumbo" in reference to beliefs other than your own. You can't have it both ways friend. Either all beliefs should be immune to criticism or none should be. Just because one of them is the one you believe to the truth does not mean it should not be criticized. Just the opposite in fact - the more strongly something is held, the more it should be open to criticism.

So I ask you again: When were you attacked?

Reread my post and the thread. I am not your personal research assistant. I said in my post that I choose to not participate in a discussion with one that prevaricates, perhaps I should use a stronger word,  and accuses me of personally attacking them when I have not or blasphemes my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I prefer discussing things whith those that do not feel it necessay to use red herring.

That is my perogrative.

The reason I chose to end the discussion was never about the personal attacks on me, it was about the false accusation that the poster made that I personally attacked him, which I di not. I only mentioned the personal attacks I have endured in my response to you to contrast things from an ironic standpoint. I personally don't care if non-believers attack me, I am used to it. I will just stop discussing things with them when they resort to that. You are trying to change the subject and in fact....

...in your very first post in response to my post saying I would not continue the discussion, you chose to initiate a personal attack on me. That being said, I don't care to discuss anything further with you either.  

Now go back and reread my response to you and contemplate on what I said about how little I care about your opinion of me. We are not brothers in Christ. I am not here to please you or conform to your opinions and advice. 

For heaven sakes leave the man alone.Just because he belives in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you all have to gang up on him.Whoever voted yes and attacks this man is NOT a good person.semperfi816

Quoted For the Truth.

[QUOTE="harashawn"][QUOTE="TAKE_IT_BACK"]

Y'know what else the bible says?

:|

 

Funky_Llama

You have to remember, the Bible wasn't written last week. People had different laws and standards back then. It wasn't until the last century that women were allowed to vote.

If it's outdated, and no longer a source, then what is? Where did morality come from?

For heaven sakes leave the man alone.Just because he belives in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you all have to gang up on him.Whoever voted yes and attacks this man is NOT a good person.semperfi816

I agree that nobody here should be personally attacked. However, religions are being attacked in this thread, which always happens when you have a discussion about religion. The thruth is that blackregiment does not respect other peoples religions, and he always tries his best to prove other people wrong. This is what makes people upset, because many people have their own religion and are happy with it. They believe they are already in god's organization, so why would they let someone else tell them otherwise?

Blackregiment, if you want others to believe that you are doing a good dead by telling others of the bible and it's treachings, then you have to be respectful of others and their religion. You may not believe you're not attacking anyone, but other people who are as religious as you are can view an attack on their religion as an attack to themselves. 

For heaven sakes leave the man alone.Just because he belives in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you all have to gang up on him.Whoever voted yes and attacks this man is NOT a good person.semperfi816

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="harashawn"]

 

You have to remember, the Bible wasn't written last week. People had different laws and standards back then. It wasn't until the last century that women were allowed to vote.

-TheDarkWolf-

If it's outdated, and no longer a source, then what is? Where did morality come from?

[QUOTE="angryfodder"][QUOTE="Crushmaster"]
The Bible never says the age of the earth is twelve thousand years. Most Bible-believing Christian believe it to be around six thousand years old.blackregiment

Did they just pluck this number out of thin air?

That date was arrived at by a compilation of genealogies from the Bible done by a Bishop named James Ussher. There is a wealth of evidence for a young earth, you just won't hear about it.

Here are a couple of sites that have a lot of evidence for a young earth.

www.icr.org

Cheers - i'll take a look

and sorry about the barrage or questions

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="angryfodder"]

Did they just pluck this number out of thin air?

angryfodder

That date was arrived at by a compilation of genealogies from the Bible done by a Bishop named James Ussher. There is a wealth of evidence for a young earth, you just won't hear about it.

Here are a couple of sites that have a lot of evidence for a young earth.

www.icr.org

Cheers - i'll take a look

and sorry about the barrage or questions

For heaven sakes leave the man alone.Just because he belives in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you all have to gang up on him.Whoever voted yes and attacks this man is NOT a good person.semperfi816

Anything I have mentioned has been out of interest of his opinion. I am not trying to dissprove anything or attack him with questions....i'm just interested. He's obviously dedicated and knowledgable in his beliefs.

For me, that shows very clearly that you are not seeking the truth, you just want to argue that the God you do not believe in does not exist. In addition, you present no evidence that supports your position, just your opinions.

That's your prerogative however.blackregiment

I respect your beliefs. Still I'd like to stick to atheism.

Also don't you think that if God was really all-powerful he would make everyone believe in him? The fact that not everyone believes in God including me proves to me that this God is not all-powerful.

[QUOTE="semperfi816"]For heaven sakes leave the man alone.Just because he belives in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you all have to gang up on him.Whoever voted yes and attacks this man is NOT a good person.dog64

I agree that nobody here should be personally attacked. However, religions are being attacked in this thread, which always happens when you have a discussion about religion. The thruth is that blackregiment does not respect other peoples religions, and he always tries his best to prove other people wrong. This is what makes people upset, because many people have their own religion and are happy with it. They believe they are already in god's organization, so why would they let someone else tell them otherwise?

Blackregiment, if you want others to believe that you are doing a good dead by telling others of the bible and it's treachings, then you have to be respectful of others and their religion. You may not believe you're not attacking anyone, but other people who are as religious as you are can view an attack on their religion as an attack to themselves. 

Let me correct you on a few errors in what you wrote. First, I respect the right of others to hold any belief or even non-belief they choose. I have said that many times. God gave man a free will to choose to believe whatever they want. The fact that people may not believe what Jesus Christ said, does not make those beliefs valid. You seem to have a twisted definition of tolerance. Tolerance is respecting the right of people to hold other beliefs. It does requitre that a person accept the beliefs of others as vallid or equally true.

I may be mistaken but I do not believe I have discussed the specific belief system of any other named religion or faith specifically on this thread , nor have I attacked the specific doctrines or beliefs of any specific religion. You are making that up plain and simple. I challenge you to show where a the beliefs or doctrines of another faith have even been discussed on this thread. You can't.

I defend Biblical Christianity against the numerous attacks. misrepresentations, and errors of mainly non-believers since they are the majority on these threads. That is what I do.   

If your definition of respect is me to compromise what the Lord has said and agree that all religions are equal, you will be waiting a looooong time. Isn't going to happen.     

In closing I can see why naturalists buy into the speculative stories of the myth of macro-evolution, it is because they are pretty good at making up tall tales themselves. 

In my attempt to help you see this, you have shown that your argument essentially comes down to: "I'm a Christian and therefore better than you.

Qooroo

Yet another prevarication, I have never said that I am better than anyone else. I am a fallen sinner, saved by the grace of God, through my faith in Christ, are you???  Read my sig. 

I can tell you that valid arguments are opinion and insult other religions all I want, but am above having anything of the like done to me or my religion."

It has often been asked in these threads why some people argue that they push people away from Christ. This is why. It's because you conduct them with condescending attitudes, tell everyone they're wrong, and evade legitimate criticism and discussion. You create an unappealing persona to the Christian, and it makes the prospect of being one distasteful. I would not go as far as to say that you should not evangelise, but I will point out that this kind of attitude makes it counter productive.

You don't want to discuss anything more with me? That's fine. I respect your innability to deal with anything that threatens a black-and-white worldview in which you are right and the other is wrong. I sincerely hope you can one day not live in fear of nuance.

Qooroo

Friend your whole argument is a red herring. Anyone that would be foolish enough to allow their opinion of another person to affect their faith in God, their relationship with Christ, and their eternal destiny is not thinking rationally. My suspicion is that that is yet another excuse put forth to attempt to silence Christians that share their faith, and/or for their unwillingness to submit to a sovereign God.

By the way, I'll let you know when you bring something that, "threatens a black-and-white worldview in which you are right and the other is wrong.". I haven't seen anything even close to that from you yet and I've waited a long time.

In the meantime, I'll be "shaking in my boots" waiting for you to come up with something larger that that singularity, that is the "creator god" of the faith of naturalism.    

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]For me, that shows very clearly that you are not seeking the truth, you just want to argue that the God you do not believe in does not exist. In addition, you present no evidence that supports your position, just your opinions.

That's your prerogative however.X4D

I respect your beliefs. Still I'd like to stick to atheism.

Also don't you think that if God was really all-powerful he would make everyone believe in him? The fact that not everyone believes in God including me proves to me that this God is not all-powerful.

Well, God gave you a free will to do just that. 

God's power is not dependent on people believing in Him. God did not create us as robots. He does not force anyone to love Him. True love cannot exist without the free will to not love. While it saddens God that there are those that will reject Him, He loves us enough to allow us to make that free will choice. He will be there for those that seek Him and want a relationship with Him, but He will not remove our free will and force us to. 

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the gate and knock. If any man shall hear my voice and open to me the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him: and he with me. 

I wish you well.

I don't know if I am a good person.

[QUOTE="semperfi816"]For heaven sakes leave the man alone.Just because he belives in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you all have to gang up on him.Whoever voted yes and attacks this man is NOT a good person.angryfodder

Anything I have mentioned has been out of interest of his opinion. I am not trying to dissprove anything or attack him with questions....i'm just interested. He's obviously dedicated and knowledgable in his beliefs.

I have found discussions with you, unlike those most Christians experience with many non-believers, congenial and respectful and I appreciate that and respect you for your demeanor.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Friend your whole argument is a red herring. Anyone that would be foolish enough to allow their opinion of another person to affect their faith in God, their relationship with Christ, and their eternal destiny is not thinking rationally. My suspicion is that that is yet another excuse put forth to attempt to silence Christians that share their faith, and/or for their unwillingness to submit to a sovereign God.

Qooroo

It happened to me. I have no problems with Christians who share their faith - why else would I willingly attend Christian Churches and eagerly engage in theological debates with Christians on a regular basis. But when I see people claiming to have found the 'one truth path' preaching arrogance and closed-mindedness, that turns me off of the whole kit and kaboodle. Among the reasons I'm no longer Christian is that once I realized that no benevolent God would demand belief, the prospect of being associated with the religion's less positive aspects pushed my away.

By the way, I'll let you know when you bring something that, "threatens a black-and-white worldview in which you are right and the other is wrong.". I haven't seen anything even close to that from you yet and I've waited a long time.

blackregiment

That kind of worldview naturally precludes the ability to seriously debate its flaws.

Reread what I wrote about the folly of letting your opinion of anyone interfere with your relationship with God, Jesus Christ, and therefore the eternal destination of your soul. I suppose that if you don't like a certain football player, you don't watch football anymore either, or if you don't like a teacher, you drop out of school too.

Jesus said,

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Act 4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11  This is the stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1Ti 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If you have a problem wiith that, I suggest you take it up with God, sooner rather than later for we are also told...

Ecc 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

You may not like that or agree with it, but you owe it to yourself to find out if it is true. Eternity is a long time.

This thread has been around for a long while, hasn't it? Despite the entire existance of this thread revolving around a failed attempt of evangelism, along with the fact that I already answered this questions before, I will do so again:

Do you consider yourself a good person? Absolutely.
Have you ever told a lie? Yes. Does that make me a liar? No.
Have you ever stolen anything? Yes. Does that make me a thief? No.
Have you ever lusted before? Yes. Does that make me a pervert? No. (*wink*)
Have you ever used the Lord's name in vain? Yes. Do I care? No.

So let's pretend this logic is true and that you are automatically defined by the actions you take; if I were to play the piano once in my life, would I be a pianist? Yes, according to this logic. What if I helped my father build a shed--would I be a carpenter? Yes, again, according to this logic. Oh, and what if I play backyard football one afternoon--would I be an athlete? Yes, once again.

You might think, "but many of those titles aren't earned by simply doing the actions, but by being trained as a professional." However, you being a professional and/or trained or not does not detract from the reality of the situation. You ARE playing the piano, so you ARE a pianist, according to the TC's logic. Also take into consideration that being a "liar" or a "thief" can be viewed as a profession, since one can easily be a better liar or thief than another and thus make a living off of it--this in turn contradicts the present logic at hand.

You could also use this logic to your own advantage. What if you did something good? According to this logic, you will be the eptiome of a righteous individual, since the same logic says that uttering a single lie makes you the eptiome of a lying individual. You can also donate $3.00 to charity and become a prestigous and generous man in return. You can probably see where I'm going with this.

In short, the arguement is a paradox in nature and is only used to express the TC's fallacious beliefs in a poor attempt at evangelizing the members of this forum. Sorry Crushmaster, but if you truly had honest intentions behind making this thread, then you would've used a honest discussion to fufill your intentions in return. Using deception and scare tactics to persuade the members of this forum into believing in your god gives Christianity a bad name.

EDIT: Wow, the quoting system on these boards is terrible. This post is in response to the following blackregiment quote: "I may be mistaken but I do not believe I have discussed the specific belief system of any other named religion or faith specifically on this thread , nor have I attacked the specific doctrines or beliefs of any specific religion. You are making that up plain and simple. I challenge you to show where a the beliefs or doctrines of another faith have even been discussed on this thread. You can't."

To subrosian you said (regarding references he made to other faiths) this:

[QUOTE=blackregiment"]More mumbo jumbo sans evidence from you. Are you ever going to provide a shred of evidence for your wild speculations?Qooroo

How funny! You are really reaching… Show me where that is discussing the doctrines, tenets or beliefs of a specific faith and criticizing those tenants, doctrines, or beliefs of that faith, or "attacking" them as you like to write for dramatics..

In regards to Islamic Law you said this.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]As far as your reference to Islamic Law, I could care less what it says. Qooroo

Read what I wrote above. I am a Biblical Christian, I follow Christ, I have studied Islam and I do have no interest nor do I care less what Islamic Law says. That is hardly attacking the beliefs, doctrines, and beliefs of that faith.  If you are not careful, all of that twisting will have you looking like a pretzel.  

Essentially, you treat non-Christian religions with disrespect, refuse to engage in debate regarding them because you see yourself as above it, and consistently willfully misinterpret any reference made to another religion, dismissing the point outright simply for making reference to a non-Christian religion.

Qooroo

Actually, no one has even bought up specific beliefs, tenets, or doctrines of a specific faith. It is kind of hard to discuss them when no one brings them up., including you. For the nth time I respect the right of anyone to believe what ever they want, but I will not acknowledge them as the truth or equal with Biblical Christianity. I don't buy into your tendency to push political correctness and an incorrect definition of tolerance. Public schools are a breeding ground for that kind of thought. I don't buy into it. You can if you want, I don't and won't.  

Also, this:

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]I also noticed how you try to lump different religions and man-made faiths under the umbrella of Christianity. I speak of Biblical Christianity, not man-made religions.

I also notice you have not provided a shred of evidence for the false gods you keep referring to mention like the FSM or Hubbard.Qooroo

is at least as disrespectful to non-Christian religions as subrosian was to Christianity.

You are demanding a monumental double-standard.

I stand by those statements and am still waiting for the evidence to support the truth of the FSM and Hubbard. . Are you a follower of the FSM or Hubbard. Perhaps you can provide the evidence I requested. You are also welcome to provide evidence that you feel shows that Biblical Christianity is untrue, that is if you would rather talk about something that really matters, than just do "stretching and twisting exercises".

I've done all those things and yet i still voted yes xD

Lying? Obviously, who hasnt

Looked in lust? I got a mad crush and am 13 :P

Used gods name in vein? Duz oh my god/for god's sake count?

Oh yeah, once i stole a chocolate bar from my friends backpack when i was 6 :(

This thread has been around for a long while, hasn't it? Despite the entire existance of this thread revolving around a failed attempt of evangelism, along with the fact that I already answered this questions before, I will do so again:

Do you consider yourself a good person? Absolutely.
Have you ever told a lie? Yes. Does that make me a liar? No.
Have you ever stolen anything? Yes. Does that make me a thief? No.
Have you ever lusted before? Yes. Does that make me a pervert? No. (*wink*)
Have you ever used the Lord's name in vain? Yes. Do I care? No.

So let's pretend this logic is true and that you are automatically defined by the actions you take; if I were to play the piano once in my life, would I be a pianist? Yes, according to this logic. What if I helped my father build a shed--would I be a carpenter? Yes, again, according to this logic. Oh, and what if I play backyard football one afternoon--would I be an athlete? Yes, once again.

You might think, "but many of those titles aren't earned by simply doing the actions, but by being trained as a professional." However, you being a professional and/or trained or not does not detract from the reality of the situation. You ARE playing the piano, so you ARE a pianist, according to the TC's logic. Also take into consideration that being a "liar" or a "thief" can be viewed as a profession, since one can easily be a better liar or thief than another and thus make a living off of it--this in turn contradicts the present logic at hand.

You could also use this logic to your own advantage. What if you did something good? According to this logic, you will be the eptiome of a righteous individual, since the same logic says that uttering a single lie makes you the eptiome of a lying individual. You can also donate $3.00 to charity and become a prestigous and generous man in return. You can probably see where I'm going with this.

In short, the arguement is a paradox in nature and is only used to express the TC's fallacious beliefs in a poor attempt at evangelizing the members of this forum. Sorry Crushmaster, but if you truly had honest intentions behind making this thread, then you would've used a honest discussion to fufill your intentions in return. Using deception and scare tactics to persuade the members of this forum into believing in your god gives Christianity a bad name.

-Jiggles-

The fallacy in your argument is that you are trying to equate temporal things with standards of righteousness as defined by our Creator God. We all miss the mark when it comes to meeting God's standards of righteousness. We cannot live a sinless life. We all miss the mark and that is why Jesus Christ died. Those that repent and put their faith and trust in Him are counted righteous in His eyes and are promised that their sins are blotted out and they will be restored to fellowship with Him and have eternal life with Him.  

[QUOTE="-Jiggles-"]

This thread has been around for a long while, hasn't it? Despite the entire existance of this thread revolving around a failed attempt of evangelism, along with the fact that I already answered this questions before, I will do so again:

Do you consider yourself a good person? Absolutely.
Have you ever told a lie? Yes. Does that make me a liar? No.
Have you ever stolen anything? Yes. Does that make me a thief? No.
Have you ever lusted before? Yes. Does that make me a pervert? No. (*wink*)
Have you ever used the Lord's name in vain? Yes. Do I care? No.

So let's pretend this logic is true and that you are automatically defined by the actions you take; if I were to play the piano once in my life, would I be a pianist? Yes, according to this logic. What if I helped my father build a shed--would I be a carpenter? Yes, again, according to this logic. Oh, and what if I play backyard football one afternoon--would I be an athlete? Yes, once again.

You might think, "but many of those titles aren't earned by simply doing the actions, but by being trained as a professional." However, you being a professional and/or trained or not does not detract from the reality of the situation. You ARE playing the piano, so you ARE a pianist, according to the TC's logic. Also take into consideration that being a "liar" or a "thief" can be viewed as a profession, since one can easily be a better liar or thief than another and thus make a living off of it--this in turn contradicts the present logic at hand.

You could also use this logic to your own advantage. What if you did something good? According to this logic, you will be the eptiome of a righteous individual, since the same logic says that uttering a single lie makes you the eptiome of a lying individual. You can also donate $3.00 to charity and become a prestigous and generous man in return. You can probably see where I'm going with this.

In short, the arguement is a paradox in nature and is only used to express the TC's fallacious beliefs in a poor attempt at evangelizing the members of this forum. Sorry Crushmaster, but if you truly had honest intentions behind making this thread, then you would've used a honest discussion to fufill your intentions in return. Using deception and scare tactics to persuade the members of this forum into believing in your god gives Christianity a bad name.

blackregiment

The fallacy in your argument is that you are trying to equate temporal things with standards of righteousness as defined by our Creator God. We all miss the mark when it comes to meeting God's standards of righteousness. We cannot live a sinless life. We all miss the mark and that is why Jesus Christ died. Those that repent and put their faith and trust in Him are counted righteous in His eyes and are promised that their sins are blotted out and they will be restored to fellowship with Him and have eternal life with Him.  

A great deal of consideration, discussion, and soul-searching has gone into my personal set of spiritual beliefs. I am comfortable with the conclusions that I have come to, but am continually questioning, refining, and reevaluating them out of a desire for truth.

You claim my beliefs to be incorrect and yours to be correct. Yet you dodge the most effective criticisms of them. I am simultaneously being given no rational evidence in favour of your belief structure and a distaste for the attitudes that its followers adopt. The world is not black and white, and addressing it in those terms compromises your ethos and therefore the inclination of the rational to agree with you.

Qooroo

God gave you a free will to believe Him and accept Christ or reject Him. As I have said over and over, and you must have missed , God does not force anyone to accept salvation in Christ. He will respect your choice and will reward you with the eternal consequences of that choice. 

Another point I have made over and over and you keep missing, is that it is not about my or your beliefs. Our beliefs do not establish reality. 

It is about insuring that our beliefs correspond to reality, that is if one wants to be honest to themself. 

Wow, as I wrote that, I realized that you seem to have missed many things that I have said over and over and instead, reconstructed a different image of what I have said. Is that intentional? Just wondering.........

[QUOTE="-Jiggles-"]

This thread has been around for a long while, hasn't it? Despite the entire existance of this thread revolving around a failed attempt of evangelism, along with the fact that I already answered this questions before, I will do so again:

Do you consider yourself a good person? Absolutely.
Have you ever told a lie? Yes. Does that make me a liar? No.
Have you ever stolen anything? Yes. Does that make me a thief? No.
Have you ever lusted before? Yes. Does that make me a pervert? No. (*wink*)
Have you ever used the Lord's name in vain? Yes. Do I care? No.

So let's pretend this logic is true and that you are automatically defined by the actions you take; if I were to play the piano once in my life, would I be a pianist? Yes, according to this logic. What if I helped my father build a shed--would I be a carpenter? Yes, again, according to this logic. Oh, and what if I play backyard football one afternoon--would I be an athlete? Yes, once again.

You might think, "but many of those titles aren't earned by simply doing the actions, but by being trained as a professional." However, you being a professional and/or trained or not does not detract from the reality of the situation. You ARE playing the piano, so you ARE a pianist, according to the TC's logic. Also take into consideration that being a "liar" or a "thief" can be viewed as a profession, since one can easily be a better liar or thief than another and thus make a living off of it--this in turn contradicts the present logic at hand.

You could also use this logic to your own advantage. What if you did something good? According to this logic, you will be the eptiome of a righteous individual, since the same logic says that uttering a single lie makes you the eptiome of a lying individual. You can also donate $3.00 to charity and become a prestigous and generous man in return. You can probably see where I'm going with this.

In short, the arguement is a paradox in nature and is only used to express the TC's fallacious beliefs in a poor attempt at evangelizing the members of this forum. Sorry Crushmaster, but if you truly had honest intentions behind making this thread, then you would've used a honest discussion to fufill your intentions in return. Using deception and scare tactics to persuade the members of this forum into believing in your god gives Christianity a bad name.

blackregiment

The fallacy in your argument is that you are trying to equate temporal things with standards of righteousness as defined by our Creator God. We all miss the mark when it comes to meeting God's standards of righteousness. We cannot live a sinless life. We all miss the mark and that is why Jesus Christ died. Those that repent and put their faith and trust in Him are counted righteous in His eyes and are promised that their sins are blotted out and they will be restored to fellowship with Him and have eternal life with Him.

Morality is indefinite and varies from culture to culture. In the islamic religion, it is perfectly acceptable for a husband to have complete control over their wife, ranging from the authority to hit, cheat on, rape and even perform honor killings, yet such ideas would seem barbaric and unjust due to your Christian mindset.

You state that what is morally acceptable is already defined by the Christian god, so what makes you think that Crushmaster's arguement would work at all? He is using Christian standards of morality to persuade people who don't even believe in Christianity. Also, threatening them that they're hellbound isn't going to gain his belief any favor as well.

You must also understand that nobody can voluntarily believe in one thing over another--beliefs are created because the person believes such to be the most logical solution to whatever situation at hand. It's not as if people like me choose to not be a Christian--I would love nothing more than to live in a blissful, serene afterlife within the presence of a loving deity--but I simply do not believe that this is true.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="Qooroo"]

A great deal of consideration, discussion, and soul-searching has gone into my personal set of spiritual beliefs. I am comfortable with the conclusions that I have come to, but am continually questioning, refining, and reevaluating them out of a desire for truth.

You claim my beliefs to be incorrect and yours to be correct. Yet you dodge the most effective criticisms of them. I am simultaneously being given no rational evidence in favour of your belief structure and a distaste for the attitudes that its followers adopt. The world is not black and white, and addressing it in those terms compromises your ethos and therefore the inclination of the rational to agree with you.

Qooroo

God gave you a free will to believe Him and accept Christ or reject Him. As I have said over and over, and you must have missed , God does not force anyone to accept salvation in Christ. He will respect your choice and will reward you with the eternal consequences of that choice.

Another point I have made over and over and you keep missing, is that it is not about my or your beliefs. Our beliefs do not establish reality.

It is about insuring that our beliefs correspond to reality, that is if one wants to be honest to themself.

Wow, as I wrote that, I realized that you seem to have missed many things that I have said over and over and instead, reconstructed a different image of what I have said. Is that intentional? Just wondering.........

I assert that your first statement is a belief.

I agrere with your your thoughts on belief and reality.

You have not provided sufficient evidence that your beliefs correspond to reality.

You seem to think that it is somehow my responsibility to "prove" the existence of God and the truth of Biblical Chritianity to you. God's existence does not depend on whether on believes in Him or not. He needs no proof.

My obligation to the Lord is to share the Gospel with others. What you do with it is up to you. It it your free will choice. Only God through the Holy Spirit can lead one to the truth and they have to be willing to seek it. 

While I may be wrong on this, in my conversations with you, I am not convinced that you are really seeking the truth. I sense that your motivation is more one of trying to prove tht God doesn't exist, that the Bible is not His revelation, and that faith in Jesus Christ is not the pathe to salvation. If I am wrong on that, I stand corrected.

If you really would like to explore Biblical Christianity with an open mind, here is a site that is very good.

"The Journey: What Happened To Me?

Randall Niles was the definitive skeptic, critic, and cynic. Forged in the fires of Georgetown, Oxford, and Berkeley, Randall's peers knew him as a "practicing atheist." Then, in what seemed to be overnight, people witnessed a dramatic shift in his life. Go on a journey with Randall as he poses questions, explores assumptions, and challenges his long-held preconceptions about life, purpose, and meaning."

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

Your real motivation will be revealed by whether or not you are willing to study the wealth of material on this site. Only you can answer that.

Either way, I wish you well. 

Morality is indefinite and varies from culture to culture. In the islamic religion, it is perfectly acceptable for a husband to have complete control over their wife, ranging from the authority to hit, cheat on, rape and even perform honor killings, yet such ideas would seem barbaric and unjust due to your Christian mindset.

You state that what is morally acceptable is already defined by the Christian god, so what makes you think that Crushmaster's arguement would work at all? He is using Christian standards of morality to persuade people who don't even believe in Christianity. Also, threatening them that they're hellbound isn't going to gain his belief any favor as well.

You must also understand that nobody can voluntarily believe in one thing over another--beliefs are created because the person believes such to be the most logical solution to whatever situation at hand. It's not as if people like me choose to not be a Christian--I would love nothing more than to live in a blissful, serene afterlife within the presence of a loving deity--but I simply do not believe that this is true.

-Jiggles-

While I agree with you that the moral standards that are held by people in different cultures have changed, usually trending downward, God's moral standards are absolute and unchanging and are not dependent of the standard that a culture. people, or an individual person. The morality of a culture declines as they turn away from God and His absolute moral standard. 

That being said, studies have shown that there are certain universal moral standards that are consistent across cultures, for example, in many cultures, stealing, murder, etc, is considered wrong. The Bible tells us that God's moral law is written in our hearts. It has been said that our conscience is an early warning system.  

While there are differences in the moral standards held by people in differing cultures, the Bible tells us that this would be the case, especially as we approach end times and people fall away from belief in God and obedience to His absolute moral law. 

If one can vizualize how different the world would be if for example, everyone lived by and obeyed the Ten Commandments, or followed Jesus' command that we should love our neighbor as we love ourselves, they will see that disobedience to God's moral law has led to many of the problems we see in the culture today as well as continued cultural decline.   

Yes, truth does not require belief to be true. However, there's no evidence beyond your belief for it to be true (or, at least, I'm not familiar with it). Therefore your belief in its truth is no more valid than any beliefs I might possess, which really gets us nowhere in a search for truth, which is my concern.

I want truth. You believe you have it. You have claimed on numerous occasions that your beliefs are rationally supported, but then you provide inadequate evidence and dodge valid criticism. Now you're hiding behind the claim that you don't have to prove anything to anyone.

Will you make up your mind?

Qooroo

Friend,  I don't have time to sit here and write pages and pages, showing the mountain of evidence that exists for the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, every time someone asks. I have provided evidence on many different threads. it is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. My responsibility is to share the Gospel of salvation in Christ. What you do with it is up to you. I have done that.

The very fact that you would again ask for evidence indicates to me that you are not serious.I gave you a link to a very good site that will answer many of your questions. There are hundreds of others with tons of evidence as well. I am not going to sit here and type and retype pages and pages of information when it is available, accessible, and much more comprehensive that anything I could ever type here. If you seriously seek the truth then visit the site that I gave you. If you won't even do that, your actions belie your claim that "you want truth". 

Let's get real here. You are putting up a smokescreen and we both know it. If you sincerely seek the truth and want evidence, I will be glad to help and provide you many links. Show methat you are serious and spend some time on the site I gave you first. I am not here to spoon feed you.

Since you and I began our recent discussions, I have spend bunches of time just refuting your criticism of me and my efforts. Your whole effort has been in trying to discredit me and what I write. Well friend, I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I have had many, many, many discussions over the years with non-believers and I have seen all of the tricks and tactics they use to silence the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you truly seek the truth, show me, take the journey on this site.  .  

"he Journey: What Happened To Me?

Randall Niles was the definitive skeptic, critic, and cynic. Forged in the fires of Georgetown, Oxford, and Berkeley, Randall's peers knew him as a "practicing atheist." Then, in what seemed to be overnight, people witnessed a dramatic shift in his life. Go on a journey with Randall as he poses questions, explores assumptions, and challenges his long-held preconceptions about life, purpose, and meaning."

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

I wish you well on your journey. 

Friend,  I don't have time to sit here and write pages and pages, showing the mountain of evidence that exists for the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, every time someone asks. I have provided evidence on many different threads. it is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. My responsibility is to share the Gospel of salvation in Christ. What you do with it is up to you. I have done that.

blackregiment

since when is one book writen 2000 years ago a "mountain of evidence"?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="Qooroo"]

Yes, truth does not require belief to be true. However, there's no evidence beyond your belief for it to be true (or, at least, I'm not familiar with it). Therefore your belief in its truth is no more valid than any beliefs I might possess, which really gets us nowhere in a search for truth, which is my concern.

I want truth. You believe you have it. You have claimed on numerous occasions that your beliefs are rationally supported, but then you provide inadequate evidence and dodge valid criticism. Now you're hiding behind the claim that you don't have to prove anything to anyone.

Will you make up your mind?

Qooroo

Friend, I don't have time to sit here and write pages and pages, showing the mountain of evidence that exists for the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, every time someone asks. I have provided evidence on many different threads. it is not my responsibility to prove anything to you. My responsibility is to share the Gospel of salvation in Christ. What you do with it is up to you. I have done that.

The very fact that you would again ask for evidence indicates to me that you are not serious.I gave you a link to a very good site that will answer many of your questions. There are hundreds of others with tons of evidence as well. I am not going to sit here and type and retype pages and pages of information when it is available, accessible, and much more comprehensive that anything I could ever type here. If you seriously seek the truth then visit the site that I gave you. If you won't even do that, your actions belie your claim that "you want truth".

Let's get real here. You are putting up a smokescreen and we both know it. If you sincerely seek the truth and want evidence, I will be glad to help and provide you many links. Show methat you are serious and spend some time on the site I gave you first. I am not here to spoon feed you.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

I wish you well on your journey.

Does he get anywhere beyond Power of the Holy Spirit to Change Lives, Design, Scripture, and Christ? Cause we can just skip ahead to the immense problems with all of those.

And, for the record, I have looked at stuff you've posted and found it severely wanting.

And you accusing me of smokescreening is a great irony.

You continue to confirm my suspicions with each post you make.

Since you and I began our recent discussions, I have spend bunches of time just refuting your criticism of me and my efforts. Your whole effort has been in trying to discredit me and what I write. Well friend, I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I have had many, many, many discussions over the years with non-believers and I have seen all of the tricks and tactics they use to try and silence any Christian that openly shares their faith or dares to challenge the many errors that are put forth by those that are hostile to Biblical Christianity. If you truly seek the truth, show me, take the journey on this site.  . 

"he Journey: What Happened To Me?

Randall Niles was the definitive skeptic, critic, and cynic. Forged in the fires of Georgetown, Oxford, and Berkeley, Randall's peers knew him as a "practicing atheist." Then, in what seemed to be overnight, people witnessed a dramatic shift in his life. Go on a journey with Randall as he poses questions, explores assumptions, and challenges his long-held preconceptions about life, purpose, and meaning."

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

I wish you well on your journey.