Do You Consider Yourself To Be A Good Person? Poll.

The God of Abraham isn't omnipotent or omnipresent upon examining the Old Testament. Sure, he's more powerful than anything on Earth, but he isn't as powerful as he is said to be.

Shad0ki11

Omnipotence: When the flood happens, he tells Noah to build an ark and take 2 of every kind of animal so that they would be spared from the flood. The only problem with that is that God would have just been able to save Noah all that trouble and re-create all the animals that were wiped out in the Flood or at least bring all the dead ones back to life. Noah just wasted his time doing something that God could do without any effort. The flood and the fall of man kinda lets us know that he knows he screwed up somewhere.

Shad0ki11

Your answers are based on the false assumption, that God is subject to your finite understand of His plan and that your understanding, thoughts and ways, are higher than God's. . God does not work His plan based on your understanding or lack of understanding of it. God thinks in eternal terms, we think in temporal terms. Unless you are omniscient yourself, and know every finite detail of God's plan and how He works it, you cannot possibly fully understand it.

God could have just recreated all of the animals but that was not His plan. Have you ever considered that God may have had a purpose for doing things the way He did? Perhaps He did things the way He did to test Noah's obedience to His commands. Your assertion that God could have done things according to your finite reasoning does not disprove His omnipotence.

Here is an example from our temporal world that will help to point out the fallacy of your reasoning. Let's assume that there is a kid that is an outstanding baseball player. He bats near 1000, has never made an error, runs the 40 in 3.5 seconds, and can throw a 150 MPH fastball as well as every other pitch, always for a strike. Everyone in the world agrees that he is the best baseball player they have ever seen, a once in a lifetime athlete. Every college in America offers him a full scholarship to play for them, the pros are offering multi-million dollar contracts to sign with them. Out of nowhere, he shocks everyone. He decides he is not going to play baseball anymore. He walks away and decides to study theology and medicine because he wants to be a medical missionary and help others, in third world countries that are less fortunate, with their medical problems as well as spread the Gospel of salvation in Christ. Everyone tries to tell him, that if he really wants to help others, with the millions and millions he will make playing baseball, he could make many charitable contributions, support many missionary doctors and missionaries around the world. Nothing anyone can say, do, or offer can change his mind.

Does the fact that he chose a different path and walks away from baseball change the fact that he still is the best baseball player in a lifetime? Does the fact that you might not agree with his decision, make his less than the best baseball player in a lifetime? Does the fact that people mock him and call him stupid for the decision he made, make him less than the best baseball player of all times? .

Omnpresence: God seems to watch over but doesn't take action when it is desperately needed, even when it involves the future of humanity. He did a poor job of ensuring the safety of Adam and Eve when they were in the Garden. Talk about bad parenting.  :roll:

Shad0ki11

Your argument indicates that you still do not possess a full understand several important concepts regarding God's revelation and plan. Among these are the concept of free will, or the fact that God thinks in eternal terms, or that God is not an emergency first responder ready to rush in and limit free will when we think He should and therefore save man form the temporal consequences of our choice to disobey Him. You also seem to think that God owes us more than He has already given us and that it is God's plan to create a utopia on earth. The future of humanity that really concerns God is our future in eternity. We determine where we will spend that eternity through our free will choice to accept God's plan, repent of our sinful ways, and trust in His plan of salvation in Christ, or reject it.

In regards to Adam and Eve, God created them and blessed them with everything they could ever want in the Garden of Eden, including a personal relationship with Him. He was there, present with them. He asked one thing off them, obedience to His command to not eat of a certain tree. He told them up front what the consequences would be for their disobedience. The Lord tells us that we show our love for Him when we obey His commands. Adam and Eve used their free will to disobey the Lord and they paid the consequences. God would not be just if He just ignored our disobedience to His commands and will.

It appears that you consider "good parenting" allowing children to do anything they want including being disobedient to the rules of their parents. Are you advocating that "good parenting" is having no rules, or if you do, then not telling your children what they are, or not telling children the consequences of disobedience, or not punishing them when the disobey?  I propose that these very things are at the root cause of many of the problems our youth struggle with today.

Now what was that you said about God's  "bad parenting"?   

Omniscience: The fact that he knows the future and past infinitely eliminates the need to prepare for things especially if he can do anything he wants without any consequences that affect him. There is nothing that he can do that can affect himself badly. Hypothetically, if he decided he was bored of humans and implodes the Earth, it wouldn't affect him the slightest. Another thing: He couldn't foresee the Fall and acts as though he had no idea that Adam was going to get tricked. He then punishes Adam and Eve and doesn't punish Satan at all. He just punishes Satan's disguise: the serpent. Woops!

Shad0ki11

God can do anything He want with His creation. He owes us nothing more than He has given us to this very moment. He destroyed His creation in the flood and will do so again at end times. If you paint a painting, "create" it, you are the creator of that painting. If it no longer pleases you, or brings you sorrow, do you not have the right to destroy it?  God, as our Creator, can do anything He desires with His creation as well. We can complain about it but we cannot change that fact. We should be thankful that God, in the person of Christ and out of love for us, was willing to suffer and die for our sins and provided an exit ramp for us on the highway of life that leads to destruction.

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ defeated satan in that those that put their faith and trust in Him, will have ever lasting life and fellowship with Him. God tells us those that do not trust in Christ, will have everlasting fellowship with satan in the lake of fire. Read Revelation and you will learn of the final defeat of satan upon the Lord's return.      

On more of a contemporary look at Omniscience, God knows who will go to Heaven or Hell before birth. The unborn don't think for themselves, since they are developing.

Shad0ki11

God does know who will accept Him or reject Him. He knows us in the womb. .You have just acknowledged that God indeed, is omniscient. Thank you for agreeing.

So poster above ^^^^ your thoughts on the da vinci code and have you seen zeitgeist?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

He is omnipotent, omniscient omnipresent.

blackregiment

The very concept of an omnipotent and omniscient God leads to contradictions. The omnipotence and omniscience paradox can be summed up as "Does God know what he's going to do tomorrow? If so, could he do something else?" If God knows what will happen, and does something else, he's not omniscient. If he knows and can't change it, he's not omnipotent.

X4D

You us the words contradiction and paradox as if they are interchangeable and have the same meaning, they do not. A paradox is not necessarily a contradiction.

You are misapplying the reality of God's omniscience and omnipotence based on your finite understanding in a way to attempt to limit God's power to do s He wishes with His creation. God is both omniscient and omnipotent.  The reality that he is omniscient or all knowing regarding all things does not in any way limit how He chooses to interact with His creation. As our Creator, God can do what He chooses at any time. The fact that He knows the beginning and end of all things in no what limits Him form to choose what and will He will do.  An example of this is the Gospel. God created us with a free will to obey Him or reject Him. He knows who will accept or reject Him but allows us the free will to chose our course of action. God does not force us to accept Him. He allows us to choose. The fact that He knows who will respond to His path of salvation does not limit our free will choice to do as we please. Adam and Eve chose disobedience. This placed them and all humanity on the super highway to destruction. In His omnipotence and out of love, He chose to provide a path to salvation for fallen man. He suffered and died so that those that put their faith in Christ will have an exit ramp, a path to salvation and fellowship with Him. .

Consider God's creation of the universe. It is necessarily true that a creator creates for a purpose. To have a purpose is to have a desire. To have a desire is to lack the object of that desire. Yet, God is omnipotent and one who is omnipotent has no desire to create, given that such a desire entails a lack of attainment or power. Thus, it necessarily follows that God cannot simultaneously be a creator and omnipotent.

X4D

I do not accept your premise that "one that is omnipotent has no desire to create" or that "a desire to create entails a lack of attainment or power". That may be your understanding but do you know the mind of God? Does anyone? Are you omniscient? Do you know why other humans do what they do" Do you know their minds? If we cannot even know the minds of other finite humans, we certainly cannot fully know the mind of our infinite Creator. In His revelation, God tells us that he created us to have fellowship with Him at his pleasure and for His glory.   

What I also don't get is why would a God demand worship from his creations? Is he that lonely?

X4D

Because He is supreme, our Creator, and can do whatever He desires. We cannot fully know the mind of God until the Lord returns. Many things we may not understand now, will become clear when the Lord returns.

In my opinion religion is just a tool for control. I prefer to live my life free from religious restrictions and fear of the unknown God. Of course Christian apologetics may try to convince me otherwise but I prefer to stick to my own.

X4D

Religion is man's attempt to reach up to God and please Him through their works. Salvation in Christ is God's reaching down to fallen man with an exit ramp in Christ from the highway to eternal destruction that we are all on.

Of course, God gives us the free will to take that exit ramp to eternal fellowship with Him in eternal life, or continue on the super highway to eternal separation from Him. The choice is ours, God will not force anyone to take the exit ramp He has provided in Christ.

The Lord that Christians serve has commanded us to tell others that there is an exit ramp and how to take it. That is our obligation to the Lord we serve. We cannot make anyone take that exit ramp. All we can do is make others aware that it exists. Only the Lord, working through the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts to lead them to the truth. It is their choice to seek God's truth or reject it. God will be faithful in revealing His truth to those that choose to seek Him and will, with sorrow, respect the choice of those that don't. What could be more loving and fair than that?     

Have you played black and white?

Give it a shot, I think you'll like it

"Have you ever told a lie?"
"Have you ever stolen anything?"
"Have you ever looked with lust?"
"Have you ever hated anyone?"
"Have you ever used God's name in vain? Like as a swear word?"

These questions, I can most certainly say, that I answer "Yes." to all of these questions. Guaranteed.

The Lord that Christians serve has commanded us to tell others that there is an exit ramp and how to take it. That is our obligation to the Lord we serve. We cannot make anyone take that exit ramp. All we can do is make others aware that it exists. Only the Lord, working through the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts to lead them to the truth. It is their choice to seek God's truth or reject it. God will be faithful in revealing His truth to those that choose to seek Him and will, with sorrow, respect the choice of those that don't. What could be more loving and fair than that?     

blackregiment

Of course, given that the existence of the exit ramp hasn't been proved, condemning someone to tell for not being Christian is like blaming them for not swerving off the motorway in the hope of an invisible exit ramp.Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Of course, given that the existence of the exit ramp hasn't been proved, condemning someone to tell for not being Christian is like blaming them for not swerving off the motorway in the hope of an invisible exit ramp.super_mario_128

Oh, he's not tricking us. You see, the Bible has been completely proved... because it says so in the Bible! :oFunky_Llama

I think people look at me as a good person, but I don't look at myself the same way.

So poster above ^^^^ your thoughts on the da vinci code and have you seen zeitgeist?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

angryfodder

The Da Vinci Code is historically inaccurate fiction, unsupported and refuted by the historical evidence.

Regarding Zeitgeist, I only watched the into and the section on religion. 

Zeitgeist is graphically well done, I will give it credit for that. That being said, it is one person's speculation that is presented as a story line that takes many liberties by combining mythological accounts about various gods into a pattern and then applying it as though it applies consistently to all of them. The presenter supplies little histoprical evidence to suport his speculations and makes claims that are unsupported by the historical record. One example is the date of Dec. 25th as the birthdate of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible is the birthdate of Christ given. Some of the false savior stories, post date the time of Christ and therefore if anyone borrowed from anyone, those stories were borrowed from Christianity. 

The presenter also confuses religions and lumps them all together as if they are the same and equal with true Biblical Christianity. Religions are man made and are man's attempts to reach up to God and justify themselves before God by pleasing Him with their works.Biblical Christianity, on the other hand, is God reaching down to fallen man with His plan for salvation in Christ.

Books and productions like the ones you referenced have an effect on those that are easily deceived and will not spend the time to do the historical research for themselves.  They remind me of the many speculations of the myth of macro evolution as in when a scientist takes a few bone fragments and a complete model is constructed to show what the creature looked like, and a nice story is presented to show that thsee few bone fragments are a transitional fossil and "proves" macro evolution.    

They are just confirmation that when one trusts in the words of man rather than the Word of God, one can be easily deceived. 

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

The Lord that Christians serve has commanded us to tell others that there is an exit ramp and how to take it. That is our obligation to the Lord we serve. We cannot make anyone take that exit ramp. All we can do is make others aware that it exists. Only the Lord, working through the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts to lead them to the truth. It is their choice to seek God's truth or reject it. God will be faithful in revealing His truth to those that choose to seek Him and will, with sorrow, respect the choice of those that don't. What could be more loving and fair than that?     

Funky_Llama

God gave you a free will to believe that if you choose. There is more evidence for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ than any other event in antiquity. In addition, there have been thousands of archaeological discoveries that confirm people, places, and events recorded in the Bible and none that have proved that the Bible is incorrect regarding people, places, and events listed in it.  The prophecies regarding the nation of Israel and the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are also evidence of the Bible's truth. I could go on but it is a waste of time with you. Here's an amazing fact. In months of discussions with you on many different evidences, you have yet to ever acknowledge even once, that any evidence at all, is even in the slightest manner might be construed as evidence for God or the truth of His Word. For me, that shows very clearly that you are not seeking the truth, you just want to argue that the God you do not believe in does not exist. In addition, you present no evidence that supports your position, just your opinions. 

That's your prerogative however.  

[QUOTE="super_mario_128"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Of course, given that the existence of the exit ramp hasn't been proved, condemning someone to tell for not being Christian is like blaming them for not swerving off the motorway in the hope of an invisible exit ramp.Funky_Llama

God is not trying to trick anyone. He is trying to save them. He will force anyone to accept His plan of salvation in Christ, He will be faithful in giving us the eternal destiny we choose.

The peson doing the tricking and deceiving is the god of this world who blinds our eyes to God's truth.

2Co 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Isa 44:18  They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
 

Have you ever told a lie? Sure, when I was a youngsta but I aint lie nao. Have you ever stolen anything? Sure, when I was a youngsta but I aint nao. Have you ever looked with lust? Who hasn't? Here is an interesting video on that subject. Have you ever hated anyone? I still do. I will always have Pure Anna on some suckers. Ain't nuthin can change that. Have you ever used God's name in vain? Sure Like as a swear word? Like nah?

I took a level of Hell quiz at 4/22/2008 at 14:24

The wretched King Minos has decided your fate. His tale wraps around his body 5 times.
The sweet light no longer strikes against your eyes. Your shade has been banished to... the Fifth Level of Hell!
Fifth Level of Hell

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The river Styx runs through this level of Hell, and in it are punished the wrathful and the gloomy. The former are forever lashing out at each other in anger, furious and naked, tearing each other piecemeal with their teeth. The latter are gurgling in the black mud, slothful and sullen, withdrawn from the world. Their lamentations bubble to the surface as they try to repeat a doleful hymn, though with unbroken words they cannot say it. Because you lived a cruel, vindictive and hateful life, you meet your fate in the Styx.



The Dante's Inferno Test has banished you to the Fifth Level of Hell!

Here is how you matched up against all the levels:
Level | Score
Purgatory | Low
Level 1 - Limbo | Very Low
Level 2 | Low
Level 3 | Moderate
Level 4 | Moderate
Level 5 | Very High
Level 6 - The City of Dis | Very Low
Level 7 | Very High
Level 8- the Malebolge | Very High
Level 9 - Cocytus | Low

Level descriptions: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
Take the test: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

[QUOTE="angryfodder"]

So poster above ^^^^ your thoughts on the da vinci code and have you seen zeitgeist?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

blackregiment

The Da Vinci Code is historically inaccurate fiction, unsupported and refuted by the historical evidence.

Regarding Zeitgeist, I only watched the into and the section on religion.

Zeitgeist is graphically well done, I will give it credit for that. That being said, it is one person's speculation that is presented as a story line that takes many liberties by combining mythological accounts about various gods into a pattern and then applying it as though it applies consistently to all of them. The presenter supplies little histoprical evidence to suport his speculations and makes claims that are unsupported by the historical record. One example is the date of Dec. 25th as the birthdate of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible is the birthdate of Christ given. Some of the false savior stories, post date the time of Christ and therefore if anyone borrowed from anyone, those stories were borrowed from Christianity.

The presenter also confuses religions and lumps them all together as if they are the same and equal with true Biblical Christianity. Religions are man made and are man's attempts to reach up to God and justify themselves before God by pleasing Him with their works.Biblical Christianity, on the other hand, is God reaching down to fallen man with His plan for salvation in Christ.

Books and productions like the ones you referenced have an effect on those that are easily deceived and will not spend the time to do the historical research for themselves. They remind me of the many speculations of the myth of macro evolution as in when a scientist takes a few bone fragments and a complete model is constructed to show what the creature looked like, and a nice story is presented to show that thsee few bone fragments are a transitional fossil and "proves" macro evolution.

They are just confirmation that when one trusts in the words of man rather than the Word of God, one can be easily deceived.

Well I admire your faith blackregiment and respect your beliefs

Let me see if I have this straight. You believe a Jewish zombie who is his own father, and is also god, sacrified himself on a cross so that if you psychically communicate that you submit your will to him, he will cleanse you from invisible karmic doom that you inherited because a naked woman in a garden ate fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to?

And anyone who doesn't believe that is a bad person?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="angryfodder"]

So poster above ^^^^ your thoughts on the da vinci code and have you seen zeitgeist?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

angryfodder

The Da Vinci Code is historically inaccurate fiction, unsupported and refuted by the historical evidence.

Regarding Zeitgeist, I only watched the into and the section on religion.

Zeitgeist is graphically well done, I will give it credit for that. That being said, it is one person's speculation that is presented as a story line that takes many liberties by combining mythological accounts about various gods into a pattern and then applying it as though it applies consistently to all of them. The presenter supplies little histoprical evidence to suport his speculations and makes claims that are unsupported by the historical record. One example is the date of Dec. 25th as the birthdate of Christ. Nowhere in the Bible is the birthdate of Christ given. Some of the false savior stories, post date the time of Christ and therefore if anyone borrowed from anyone, those stories were borrowed from Christianity.

The presenter also confuses religions and lumps them all together as if they are the same and equal with true Biblical Christianity. Religions are man made and are man's attempts to reach up to God and justify themselves before God by pleasing Him with their works.Biblical Christianity, on the other hand, is God reaching down to fallen man with His plan for salvation in Christ.

Books and productions like the ones you referenced have an effect on those that are easily deceived and will not spend the time to do the historical research for themselves. They remind me of the many speculations of the myth of macro evolution as in when a scientist takes a few bone fragments and a complete model is constructed to show what the creature looked like, and a nice story is presented to show that thsee few bone fragments are a transitional fossil and "proves" macro evolution.

They are just confirmation that when one trusts in the words of man rather than the Word of God, one can be easily deceived.

Well I admire your faith blackregiment and respect your beliefs

Thank you and I respect your opinion and right to hold whatever beliefs you do as well. Have a nice day. 

 

 

I dont think the questions you made are that fair though...according to those standarts everyone is a bad person...I mean everyone lies in some point of thier life...everyone is jealus sometimes or at some point of thier life met someone they dont like...it's not a sin..it's being human..also I dont think that stealing a candy when I was in the third grade makes me a bad person..I consider myself to be a good person actualy but these questions just make me (and everyone here) look bad.

michelle341

I think that's the whole idea. Blackregiment and the OP believe that if you do not accept Jesus as lord and follow his commands, that makes you a bad person in god's eyes and, therefore, you will be going to hell.

After you answer that question, I ask that you would please answer these questions: Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever looked with lust? Have you ever hated anyone? Have you ever used God's name in vain? Like as a swear word? After you answer these, I'll quote you and ask you a few more. I'll answer them along with you guys. God bless, Crushmaster.Crushmaster

i think the question should be do we lie? do we look? im sure everyone has done all of them at some time in the past. the past is not important, 

Let me see if I have this straight. You believe a *Jewish* zombie who is his own father, and is also god, sacrified himself on a cross so that if you psychically communicate that you submit your will to him, he will cleanse you from invisible karmic doom that you inherited because a naked woman in a garden ate fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to?

And anyone who doesn't believe that is a bad person?

subrosian

If that was true then the jews would belief in Jesus as a prophet. But they don't. 

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Let me see if I have this straight. You believe a *Jewish* zombie who is his own father, and is also god, sacrified himself on a cross so that if you psychically communicate that you submit your will to him, he will cleanse you from invisible karmic doom that you inherited because a naked woman in a garden ate fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to?

And anyone who doesn't believe that is a bad person?

ghoklebutter

If that was true then the jews would belief in Jesus as a prophet. But they don't.

Really? I thought they saw him as a prophet but not as the messiah.

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

Let me see if I have this straight. You believe a *Jewish* zombie who is his own father, and is also god, sacrified himself on a cross so that if you psychically communicate that you submit your will to him, he will cleanse you from invisible karmic doom that you inherited because a naked woman in a garden ate fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to?

And anyone who doesn't believe that is a bad person?

ghoklebutter

If that was true then the jews would belief in Jesus as a prophet. But they don't.

Jews don't believe in Jesus as the messiah for a number of reasons, he wasn't exactly unique. Jesus wasn't the only guy doing what he was doing, there was a new wannabe "messiah" every other week. We laugh at Scientology, but the only difference between Hubbard and Jesus is that with Jesus of Nazareth we've given false weight to the 2000 years since it has happened.

"Wow, this religion has been around for 2000 years, it must be true, and the new testament, a book written hundreds of years after the fact, and rewritten dozens of times throughout history by power hungry lunatics, proves it!".

I won't get into my own religious beliefs here, but this "literal interpretation of the bible" and "you're a bad person because you don't believe in Jebus" stuff is troubling.

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

Let me see if I have this straight. You believe a *Jewish* zombie who is his own father, and is also god, sacrified himself on a cross so that if you psychically communicate that you submit your will to him, he will cleanse you from invisible karmic doom that you inherited because a naked woman in a garden ate fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to?

And anyone who doesn't believe that is a bad person?

jimmyjammer69

If that was true then the jews would belief in Jesus as a prophet. But they don't.

Really? I thought they saw him as a prophet but not as the messiah.

According to some research, the jews have no particular view on Jesus. Why? Because he wasn't a jew. 

[QUOTE="michelle341"]

I dont think the questions you made are that fair though...according to those standarts everyone is a bad person...I mean everyone lies in some point of thier life...everyone is jealus sometimes or at some point of thier life met someone they dont like...it's not a sin..it's being human..also I dont think that stealing a candy when I was in the third grade makes me a bad person..I consider myself to be a good person actualy but these questions just make me (and everyone here) look bad.

dog64

I think that's the whole idea. Blackregiment and the OP believe that if you do not accept Jesus as lord and follow his commands, that makes you a bad person in god's eyes and, therefore, you will be going to hell.

It is not about what anyone thinks, it is about what God has revealed. He tells us that we are all fallen sinners separated from Him. No one is good. There is nothing we can do to reconcile ourselves to Him. Tht is why Christ suffered nd died, so that those that repent and put their faith and trust in Him, are reunited in fellowship with Him, our sins covered by the blood of Christ.   

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="subrosian"]

Let me see if I have this straight. You believe a *Jewish* zombie who is his own father, and is also god, sacrified himself on a cross so that if you psychically communicate that you submit your will to him, he will cleanse you from invisible karmic doom that you inherited because a naked woman in a garden ate fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to?

And anyone who doesn't believe that is a bad person?

subrosian

If that was true then the jews would belief in Jesus as a prophet. But they don't.

Jews don't believe in Jesus as the messiah for a number of reasons, he wasn't exactly unique. Jesus wasn't the only guy doing what he was doing, there was a new wannabe "messiah" every other week. We laugh at Scientology, but the only difference between Hubbard and Jesus is that with Jesus of Nazareth we've given false weight to the 2000 years since it has happened.

"Wow, this religion has been around for 2000 years, it must be true, and the new testament, a book written hundreds of years after the fact, and rewritten dozens of times throughout history by power hungry lunatics, proves it!".

I won't get into my own religious beliefs here, but this "literal interpretation of the bible" and "you're a bad person because you don't believe in Jebus" stuff is troubling.

There are several things in your comments that are historically and Biblically incorrect. First, the Jews were looking for a messiah that was a conquering king, like David or Joshua that would free them from the yoke of Roman rule. They did not understand who Jesus was and why He came.

All of the separate books and letters of the Bible were written before the destruction of the Jewish temple in the early 60's AD., not "hundreds of years after the fact". The Bible has not been "rewritten" dozens of times. The accuracy and consistency of the message of the Bible is confirmed by over 25,000 manuscripts for the New Testament alone as well as over 86,000 writing of he early Church leaders.

Finally, Biblical Christianity is not about, "you're a bad person because you don't believe in Jesus." We are all fallen sinners, whether we believe in Jesus or not. The difference is that those that repent and put their faith and trust in Jesus, are counted righteous in God's eyes and are restored to fellowship with Him in this life and in eternity. Those that choose not to won't. 

1. It's not your place to tell me what comments I'm making, or what I believe. The bible has been rewritten dozens of times, hence all the damn versions of the "good book". It was gathered and rewritten in the third century A.D. by Constantine in an attempt to use it as a means of control for the roman empire. Prior to Constantine, what you consider "christianity" was an odd sort of cult.

2. Your comments on Judaism and the scriptures are invalid, and border on blasphemy, as a non-Jew, you have no authority to comment on what the Jewish people feel on these matters, nor interpret their scripture. Orthodox Judaism does not recognize / allow Christian practioners to simply interpret the holy scriptures willy-nilly as it suits them.

3. The final statement you make here is pure blasphemy according to both Judaic and Islamic law. Worshipping Jesus as God violates four of the ten commandments. You say that God will offer salvation to people who worship Jesus? Why on earth would God spare heretics who devote their lives to spreading the worship of a false idol?

-

You come here telling people to find "salvation in Jesus Christ", but you could very well be spreading a heretical message that leads them to violate the ten commandments, and worship a false god.

1. It's not your place to tell me what comments I'm making, or what I believe. The bible has been rewritten dozens of times, hence all the damn versions of the "good book". It was gathered and rewritten in the third century A.D. by Constantine in an attempt to use it as a means of control for the roman empire. Prior to Constantine, what you consider "christianity" was an odd sort of cult.

2. Your comments on Judaism and the scriptures are invalid, and border on blasphemy, as a non-Jew, you have no authority to comment on what the Jewish people feel on these matters, nor interpret their scripture. Orthodox Judaism does not recognize / allow Christian practioners to simply interpret the holy scriptures willy-nilly as it suits them.

3. The final statement you make here is pure blasphemy according to both Judaic and Islamic law. Worshipping Jesus as God violates four of the ten commandments. You say that God will offer salvation to people who worship Jesus? Why on earth would God spare heretics who devote their lives to spreading the worship of a false idol?

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You come here telling people to find "salvation in Jesus Christ", but you could very well be spreading a heretical message that leads them to violate the ten commandments, and worship a false god.

subrosian

Sorry pal, but no cigar. I did not reference your beliefs in my post at all. Do you enjoy making things up? I find it interesting that you would falsely accuse me of something that I didn't do and then turn around and do the very thing you are falsely claiming I did. The Bible describes that sort of behavior, but ai will leave it at that. Your comments show that you are confusing Roman Catholicism with Biblical Christianity and mixing in some Islam for good measure. By the way, the Bible was not "rewritten" by Constantine. All of the books and letters of the Bible were complete by the early 60's AD. Even the majority of liberal and secular scholars accept 90AD as the completion date.

The rest of your comments, to put it nicely, including your personal attack on the Deity of Jesus Christ, my personal faith, and as well as your false accusations of blasphemy, especially those found in 2 and 3 are just further evidence that you lack sufficient historical and Biblical knowledge as well as an understanding of Biblical Christianity, to be taken serious on any further points you make. Your commens on Judaic Law, in relation to Christ reveal a lack of understanding of the Trinity, who Jesus claimed He was, Biblical prophecy regarding Jesus, and Jesus' purpose for His coming especially as it relates to the fulfillment of Judaic Law.  As far as your reference to Islamic Law, I could care less what it says. 

Here is a little primer on the central message of Christ in the Scriptures.

In the Old Testament

The books of Law reveal the foundation for Christ the Messiah

The historical books reveal the preparation for Christ the Messiah

The books poetic books aspire to Christ the Messiah

The books of prophecy reveal the expectation of Christ the Messiah

In the New Testament

The Gospels reveal the historical manifestation of Christ the Messiah

The Acts reveal the propagation of Christ the messiah

The Epistles reveal the interpretation of Christ the Messiah

Revelation reveals the consummation of all things in Christ the Messiah

You are entitled to your beliefs, whatever they may be, I have never said otherwise, and the Lord, Jesus Christ will faithfully give you the eternal destination you choose.That is the beauty of free will. We all get to pick where we spend eternity.

Now since you have demonstrated that you cannot have a civil conversation without resorting to personal attacks, I have nothing further to discuss with you except this. You wrote...

You come here telling people to find "salvation in Jesus Christ", but you could very well be spreading a heretical message that leads them to violate the ten commandments, and worship a false god.

subrosian

One thing is certain, we will sure find out who is right someday. That is for certain. 

Have a nice day.

the Lord, Jesus Christ will faithfully give you the eternal destination you choose.That is the beauty of free will. We all get to pick where we spend eternity. blackregiment

Except, as Jesus isn't God, he has no bearing on your "eternal destination", though worshipping him as God is blasphemous to at least 38% of the people who share scripture with your religion.

I'll add in that the idea that "free will" even exists is not universally agreed upon. The prevailing "cynical" thought is that we accept the notion of free will simply so that we are justified in seeking punishment against people.

Now since you have demonstrated that you cannot have a civil conversation without resorting to personal attacks, I have nothing further to discuss with you except this. blackregiment

I have questioned the ideas that you are spreading, that is not a "personal attack". You, as a human being, are a seperate identity from the ideas that you advocate. Questioning the religious ideas that you are spreading is not an attack on your person.

You wrote...

[QUOTE="subrosian"]

You come here telling people to find "salvation in Jesus Christ", but you could very well be spreading a heretical message that leads them to violate the ten commandments, and worship a false god.

blackregiment

One thing is certain, we will sure find out who is right someday. That is for certain.

Have a nice day.

No guarantees there blackregiment, if the Aethiests are right and there is no god, we'll just rot in our graves, and neither of us will be the wiser. And if a number of beliefs systems that you oppose are correct, those who believed incorrectly will simply not get eternal life. They won't be revived after death to be close to God, they will simply cease to exist, or continue in the cycle of mortal life.

Dr. Greenleaf was so convinced by the overwhelming evidence, he committed his life to Jesus Christ!

blackregiment

yes i do.

of course

no.

probably

no just strongly dislike

yes i have.

Unless you can convince me that you are omniscient by say, telling me the temperature on Pluto right now, or how many grains of sand are on the beaches of Hawaii, or how many hairs are on the back of a TibetanYak, you cannot say for certain that Jesus is not God.

Well, there were at least 11 eyewitnesses, not to mention countless others, that were willing to die for what they knew was true since they personally saw and experienced Jesus Christ, His death and Resurrection. Several of them recorded their testimonies in the Scriptures. Show me the historical evidence you have that they were lying. Show me the evidence you have for whatever god you worship that predicted his death and resurrection in advance and arose from the dead. I will be glad to look at it. Until then, we will just have to disagree.

I will go with the eyewitnesses and their testimony. I will go with the testimony of the Holy Spirit who indwells me and every other born again Christian, and I will go with the Word of God and the millions of lives that have been lifted from despair by the power of His Word.

Dr. Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University and author of A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. He was determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. He examined the value of the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ to ascertain the truth. He applied the principles contained in his three-volume treatise on evidence. His findings were recorded in his book, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. He came to the conclusion that, according to the laws of legal evidence used in courts of law, there is more evidence for the historical fact of the resurrection of Jesus Christ than for just about any other event in history.

Dr. Greenleaf was so convinced by the overwhelming evidence, he committed his life to Jesus Christ!

princecaspian38

1. Prove to me that there's not a giant sphagetti monster in outer space which created all of life in his divine noodly goodness. You've reduced your argument to "you can't prove I'm wrong". Right, because you're asking me to prove a negative, that doesn't mean it happened. I never denied the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, by some historical accounts he existed. What I'm questioning is your belief that this man was God. Even some Christians don't feel that Jesus was God. And if Jesus ISN'T God, then by worshipping him you're violating the ten commandments.

Prove that L. Ron Hubbard isn't in another galaxy right now, spreading the divine teachings of Scientology as revealed to him by past life regression. Same thing, and get this, there are actual living witnesses who will TESTIFY to the great things L. Ron Hubbard has done, and, when you are ready, reveal to you where he has gone and why.

Or we could go talk to the mormons, who have some extra teachings by you savior Jesus! Why aren't you following those teachings? Are you trying to suggest you're opposed to some of the things that people claim Jesus said, but you allow others? What's your criteria? How do you address the synoptic gospel versus the gospel of John, while you're at it?

2. One guy, reading about Christianity, decided it was right for him. Wooo! Congratulations? And that proves what? Hundreds of people every day take e-meter tests in the streets of major cities around the world, beginning their journey towards personal happiness and enlightnment in the Church of Scientology. Famous, wealthy, successful people like Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Beck, and David Miscavige have found Scientology to improve their lives. John Travolta says he owes his success to Scientology - you can't argue with results like that.

Obviously if one person feels a religion is right for them, then it must be, especially if they went to Harvard!

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Dr. Greenleaf was so convinced by the overwhelming evidence, he committed his life to Jesus Christ!

Jandurin

That's impossible, no one has ever lied in regard to religion. Take Saul, later called Paul. Okay, sure, he never actually followed Jesus while Jesus was alive, technically speaking he could have just fallen down on the side of the road, had a stroke, and seen some crazy visions. Or, he could have decided "gee, y'know, it would be rather easy to exploit this prophet Jesus after his death". Some Anti-Trinitarians have even argued a far more frightening point - say the devil is real , he's just one person, how do you corrupt Jesus, when Jesus himself resists you?

Simple, after his death, create a false disciple (Paul aka Saul ) and have him start a church that preaches a false form of Christianity - using the prophet Jesus you could doom millions of people!

But no, we're 100% certain every disciple was a good, honest person (other than Judas, of course ) and that no person researching Christianity has ever let personal fear, pre-conditioned beliefs, or their own religious sentiment cloud their judgment.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="blackregiment"]

The Lord that Christians serve has commanded us to tell others that there is an exit ramp and how to take it. That is our obligation to the Lord we serve. We cannot make anyone take that exit ramp. All we can do is make others aware that it exists. Only the Lord, working through the Holy Spirit can work in their hearts to lead them to the truth. It is their choice to seek God's truth or reject it. God will be faithful in revealing His truth to those that choose to seek Him and will, with sorrow, respect the choice of those that don't. What could be more loving and fair than that?     

blackregiment

God gave you a free will to believe that if you choose. There is more evidence for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ than any other event in antiquity. In addition, there have been thousands of archaeological discoveries that confirm people, places, and events recorded in the Bible and none that have proved that the Bible is incorrect regarding people, places, and events listed in it.  The prophecies regarding the nation of Israel and the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are also evidence of the Bible's truth. I could go on but it is a waste of time with you. Here's an amazing fact. In months of discussions with you on many different evidences, you have yet to ever acknowledge even once, that any evidence at all, is even in the slightest manner might be construed as evidence for God or the truth of His Word. For me, that shows very clearly that you are not seeking the truth, you just want to argue that the God you do not believe in does not exist. In addition, you present no evidence that supports your position, just your opinions. 

That's your prerogative however.  

For example, the line that you've used earlier up this page and before, that Doctor Greenleaf crap... here it is.

subrosian your non beleifs in god and the lord are non satisfying those who do not choose god will perish in brimstone for all eternity the bible says so.princecaspian38

Ah, how eloquent, "you're going to hell" is such a touching retort. Let's ignore for a moment that there's quite a bit of question about what the bible actually says - the Gospel of John vs. the Synopotic Gospel, the various interpretations of the two creation stories, interpretation of old Judaic law versus modern practices. I won't even get into Protestants vs. Catholics, The Church of England, Calvinists, Quakers, Anti-Trinitarians, Jews for Jesus, et cetera - because frankly there's enough to be tackled here just addressing the external conflicts to Christianity, without even getting into the internal conflicts (all those churches supporting gay marriage, and oh my those Unitarians! And what about Mormons? Uh-oh! ).

But really, I'm going to hell, eh? What about all the people who worship a false idol? What happens to Christians if Jesus was a false prophet?

subrosian your non beleifs in god and the lord are non satisfying those who do not choose god will perish in brimstone for all eternity the bible says so.princecaspian38

I have the highest moral standards of the people I know...

I answered Yes to all the questions, but that doesnt mean anything. Its acknowledging what you've done as wrong, and not repeating the mistake.

Im a very guilty person by nature, I just feel pangs of remorse for every possible little mistake I make, its a terrible way to live.

These biblical standards are ridiculous.

Have you ever told a lie?  Yes
Have you ever stolen anything?  Not succesfully
Have you ever looked with lust?  Yes
Have you ever hated anyone?  Disliked, but never hated I'd say.
Have you ever used God's name in vain? Like as a swear word?  Yes, but I get frustrated in myself when I do it.  I never do it purposely. 

I'm not perfect and nobody alive today is, but I would like to think of myself as as good a person as I can be.

subrosian,

I noticed how you ignore the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles that were willing to die rather than recant their faith because they experienced Jesus and the events surrounding His life, death, and resurrection.

I also noticed how you try to lump different religions and man-made faiths under the umbrella of Christianity. I speak of Biblical Christianity, not man-made religions.

I also notice you have not provided a shred of evidence for the false gods you keep referring to mention like the FSM or Hubbard.

Oh and yes, your speculation on Saul/Paul is not reasonable or rational based on the evidence. Funny he didn't mention "hitting his head" in his account of his conversion experience. He was a Jew of high standing in the religious community and well off. If you understood anything about the Jewish culture, you would know that the Temple was the center of Jewish community life. The last thing a Jew would want was to be banished from the Temple and become an outcast to society. That being said, It is unreasonable and irrational to think that he would give up his stature in the religious community to "exploit" the opportunities of following Christ. The "opportunities" he received were things like poverty, being beaten several times, being stoned and left for dead, being imprisoned, and eventually being put to death. 

Do some critical thinking and reasoning before speculating as you seem to like to do, and oh yea, try providing some evidence rather than just your opinion and speculation.  

subrosian,

I noticed how you ignore the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles that were willing to die rather than recant their faith because they experienced Jesus and the events surrounding His life, death, and resurrection.

I also noticed how you try to lump different religions and man-made faiths under the umbrella of Christianity. I speak of Biblical Christianity, not man-made religions.

I also notice you have not provided a shred of evidence for the false gods you keep referring to mention like the FSM or Hubbard.

Oh and yes, your speculation on Saul/Paul is not reasonable or rational based on the evidence. Funny he didn't mention "hitting his head" in his account of his conversion experience. He was a Jew of high standing in the religious community and well off. If you understood anything about the Jewish culture, you would know that the Temple was the center of Jewish community life. The last thing a Jew would want was to be banished from the Temple and become an outcast to society. That being said, It is unreasonable and irrational to think that he would give up his stature in the religious community to "exploit" the opportunities of following Christ. The "opportunities" he received were things like poverty, being beaten several times, being stoned and left for dead, being imprisoned, and eventually being put to death.

Do some critical thinking and reasoning before speculating as you seem to like to do, and oh yea, try providing some evidence rather than just your opinion and speculation.

blackregiment

1. FALSE GODS? Jesus of Nazareth is the only false god here, he's a fake memory implanted by thetan brainwashing designed to cause war and suffering and prevent us from reaching our true potential. You can find plenty of evidence at scientology.org in fact, they've put quite a bit of information out there, and put in practice in programs like Narcanon and Criminon to help millions of people achieve happiness and freedom.

2. For all you know, I am Jewish, and you have just made some vast generalization and Jewish culture, and the Jewish people, to support your own religious beliefs, at the cost of the sanctity and well-being of the Jewish people.

3. I have done quite a bit of critical thinking on this, and what bothers me is that any question of the belief of Christianity here is lashed out against with "evidence" which holds absolutely no water. You cannot prove that Jesus Of Nazareth was God anymore than you can disprove the existence of FSM. For example, pasta tastes delicious, this is a universal truth, and this is ONLY POSSIBLE because FSM made it so. Italians are, of course, the chosen people, and anyone saying otherwise is of course going to face eternal denial - they will not receive ANY pasta sauce in the afterlife, terrible, but true. You continually return to scripture, and research based upon scripture, to prove that "Jesus was God" - but that's rather a bit of circular logic, the people who claim Jesus is God, and their writings, are proof that Jesus is in fact God? None of those people could be wrong, or make a mistake, eh?

And yet, there are dozens of other religions with far more massive bodies of writing, witnesses, and beliefs that you DENY to be true. How do you know Joseph Smith wasn't right? How do you know the holy prophet Muhammed was wrong? How do you know L Ron Hubbard was wrong? What factual basis do you have that demonstrates your personal brand of Christianity is the infallable WORD OF GOD.

4. And of course, there shall be no questioning of Christianity, anyone who questions those beliefs, because it's your way (or as I imagine you'd prefer "God's Way" or the "highway" (to hell ) - right? Lovely sentiments on some of those previous remarks.

5. And finally, I find creating a thread with the intent to ask a trick question in order to evaneglize to be a bit, well, troubling. I think such efforts should be more open and honest, if what you really mean is "how can you consider yourself to be a good person when you do bad things?" then why not come out and say that? If you mean "you're not a good person so you need to accept Jesus" then why not just come out and say that? Why play games?