Flaw in Christian beliefs

You should all watch this documentary called "Jesus Camp". It's about 90 minutes long and fairly interesting. I tried watching it once and the first 30 minutes kinda creeped me out...I was bored one day and decided to finish it. I'll let you form your own opinions, but I think the documentary sums up this whole thread quite nicely.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=43408

if someone in Africa did not have the chance to follow the path of God, then I'm sure He will understand and not have that be a limiting factor in deciding wheter someone goes to heaven or not. I'm sure he will just care if the person was overall a nice, loving, and caring person, who did their best to live a good life, even if they worshipped some other god

You should all watch this documentary called "Jesus Camp". It's about 90 minutes long and fairly interesting. I tried watching it once and the first 30 minutes kinda creeped me out...I was bored one day and decided to finish it. I'll let you form your own opinions, but I think the documentary sums up this whole thread quite nicely.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=43408

edgewalker16

How in the world does a documentary about a bunch of crazed Bush-worshippers sum up this topic, again?:|

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]not my problem that you can't conceive of opinions other than your own. Deity_Slapper

I was saying that maybe this is what's happening with you. Not being able to understand my answers...like when I answered your question, but you didn't see it as an answer...it was really just you not understanding that it WAS an answer. and now you call it catch-phrases.. :roll:

I have never given an absolute statement. My beliefs are my beliefs. I don't tell anyone they can factually be proven.

LJS9502_basic

Jeez...this is like trying to pull teeth...

The fact that you say you believe in god, is also a crystal clear way of claiming that "HE IS REAL". Period.

You're saying that god is real, by your expression of belief in him.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand the point here.

Nope. I answered...you haven't.

Yet not the same thing. It shouldn't be that hard to understand the point here.;)

The fact that you say you believe in god, is also a crystal clear way of claiming that "HE IS REAL". Period.

Deity_Slapper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism

Maybe now you'll understand why I have a problem with you...

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

1. What did I not answer?

2. You've not answered many of my questions, so what's the deal anyway?

3. You always use the word "vague" as well...therefore, can I assume the same things about you, that you will assume about me? :?

4. You keep asking for evidence, yet you can't give any for the god that you repeatedly claim exists. Why ask for evidence from others, when you can't supply your own, to the most IMPORTANT pieces of the puzzle you claim to have? For instance, when you said: "God is the foundation." That's an opinion, plain and simple. You can't even prove god exists, to begin with.

LJS9502_basic

1. You never answered anything substantial in regard to your religion/government opinion. You came up with catch phrases...which mean nothing.

2. I answer...you just don't like/understand the answer. That is not my problem.

3. I don't always use the word vague. In fact, it's rare.

4. Show me ONE time I stated unequivocably that God existed and there is proof. However, you many times DO state absolute statements without proof. Case in point...government and religion.

Look........Basic.......buddy, I know you want fact's, but it's not like your proving what we say is false...

Umm...LJ, just answer this question:

Do you believe that god is real?

The thing about these religious debates that makes me LOL the most is when Christians demand we provide evidence for our counter-arguments. Hypocritical much?sutherland19

Look........Basic.......buddy, I know you want fact's, but it's not like your proving what we say is false...

CoreoVII

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The fact that you say you believe in god, is also a crystal clear way of claiming that "HE IS REAL". Period.

tycoonmike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism

Maybe now you'll understand why I have a problem with you...

1. I don't give a crap if you have a problem with me. That's your deal. Hopefully, for you, one day you can learn to live without holding grudges, because it only hurts yourself.

2. Wikipedia is NEVER a good way to prove a point.

3. What I said makes perfect sense. If you believe in god, then obviously you're saying he is real. Because you wouldn't, and couldn't, believe in something that ISN'T real.

[QUOTE="CoreoVII"]

Look........Basic.......buddy, I know you want fact's, but it's not like your proving what we say is false...

LJS9502_basic

This doesn't prove his argument false at all, not even close, many laws are broken all the time, who's to say this one hasn't?

[QUOTE="sutherland19"]The thing about these religious debates that makes me LOL the most is when Christians demand we provide evidence for our counter-arguments. Hypocritical much?LJS9502_basic

I don't think we ever said it absolutely didn't exist, we just said that it's not wise to believe in something that HAS NO EVIDENCE. That's all.

sutherland19 is right. It's ridiculous for people who have no evidence for their beliefs, to be demanding evidence of others. That should be easy to understand, LJ.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="CoreoVII"]

Look........Basic.......buddy, I know you want fact's, but it's not like your proving what we say is false...

sutherland19

This doesn't prove his argument false at all, not even close, many laws are broken all the time, who's to say this one hasn't?

I don't think we ever said it absolutely didn't exist, we just said that it's not wise to believe in something that HAS NO EVIDENCE. That's all.

sutherland19 is right. It's ridiculous for people who have no evidence for their beliefs, to be demanding evidence of others. That should be easy to understand, LJ.

Deity_Slapper

[QUOTE="sutherland19"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="CoreoVII"]

Look........Basic.......buddy, I know you want fact's, but it's not like your proving what we say is false...

LJS9502_basic

This doesn't prove his argument false at all, not even close, many laws are broken all the time, who's to say this one hasn't?

And your proof that god is real, is...?

And your proof that god is real, is...?

Deity_Slapper

1. I don't give a crap if you have a problem with me. That's your deal. Hopefully, for you, one day you can learn to live without holding grudges, because it only hurts yourself.

Deity_Slapper

Said the guy that blames religion for xyz personal problem.

[QUOTE="sutherland19"]The thing about these religious debates that makes me LOL the most is when Christians demand we provide evidence for our counter-arguments. Hypocritical much?LJS9502_basic

I have never in my life stated that he doesn't ABSOLUTELY exist, I believe he doesn't, does that mean I'm right? No. But whenever I bring up my counter-arguments, alot of people automatically want facts to prove them wrong, when they have no facts to prove themselves right. And they continously rebuttle every argument trying to disprove my statements, while never solidifying their own.

Note: I don't mean all Christian's are like this, but everytime these threads come up, there seem to be some.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The fact that you say you believe in god, is also a crystal clear way of claiming that "HE IS REAL". Period.

Deity_Slapper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism

Maybe now you'll understand why I have a problem with you...

1. I don't give a crap if you have a problem with me. That's your deal. Hopefully, for you, one day you can learn to live without holding grudges, because it only hurts yourself.

2. Wikipedia is NEVER a good way to prove a point.

3. What I said makes perfect sense. If you believe in god, then obviously you're saying he is real. Because you wouldn't, and couldn't, believe in something that ISN'T real.

1. I don't hold a grudge against you, all I see is someone who is making up arguments and calling them his own, and then tries to back out of the fight when things get rough for him.

2. On whether or not Wikipedia is as reliable as other, more antiquated, encyclopediae:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/322818/wikipedia_is_as_reliable_as_any_other.html

http://its.unc.edu/inside/fs/?p=23

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/12/14/1134500913345.html

Care to restate that?

3. Then perhaps you should reread the article. Agnostic theism is basically the idea that the person in question doesn't know if God exists, but he believes in It despite this.

First show me where I stated God is real.LJS9502_basic

For the billionth time dude...when you say you believe in god, you're also stating that he is real. Because by default, you can't hold a serious belief in something that you know deep down isn't real.

Answer the question though, or are you dodging me now?

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS REAL? Answer this please.

[QUOTE="sutherland19"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="CoreoVII"]

Look........Basic.......buddy, I know you want fact's, but it's not like your proving what we say is false...

LJS9502_basic

This doesn't prove his argument false at all, not even close, many laws are broken all the time, who's to say this one hasn't?

I wasn't saying I had any, just saying that your proof, isn't proof at all really.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

1. I don't give a crap if you have a problem with me. That's your deal. Hopefully, for you, one day you can learn to live without holding grudges, because it only hurts yourself.

Theokhoth

Said the guy that blames religion for xyz personal problem.

You misunderstand. I'm not angry. I'm just aware of what caused the problem. I talk about it so that others may avoid the same.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] First show me where I stated God is real.Deity_Slapper

For the billionth time dude...when you say you believe in god, you're also stating that he is real. Because by default, you can't hold a serious belief in something that you know deep down isn't real.

Answer the question though, or are you dodging me now?

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS REAL? Answer this please.

I wasn't saying I had any, just saying that your proof, isn't proof at all really.

sutherland19

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The fact that you say you believe in god, is also a crystal clear way of claiming that "HE IS REAL". Period.

tycoonmike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism

Maybe now you'll understand why I have a problem with you...

1. I don't give a crap if you have a problem with me. That's your deal. Hopefully, for you, one day you can learn to live without holding grudges, because it only hurts yourself.

2. Wikipedia is NEVER a good way to prove a point.

3. What I said makes perfect sense. If you believe in god, then obviously you're saying he is real. Because you wouldn't, and couldn't, believe in something that ISN'T real.

1. I don't hold a grudge against you, all I see is someone who is making up arguments and calling them his own, and then tries to back out of the fight when things get rough for him.

2. On whether or not Wikipedia is as reliable as other, more antiquated, encyclopediae:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/322818/wikipedia_is_as_reliable_as_any_other.html

http://its.unc.edu/inside/fs/?p=23

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/12/14/1134500913345.html

Care to restate that?

3. Then perhaps you should reread the article. Agnostic theism is basically the idea that the person in question doesn't know if God exists, but he believes in It despite this.

What's ironic, is that this is basically every religious individual. None of you KNOW God exists, but you believe he does. And that's fine.

You know what really grind's my gear's?

Why is that a little white man and his white angels are all white people? I am a white person myself but I'd rather turn gay then believe for a second this invisiable white dude exists. Why are their no black or asian angels? I mean, are christains narrow minded or what?

I don't hold a grudge against you, tycoonmike

The tone of your posts would suggest otherwise.

all I see is someone who is making up arguments and calling them his own, and then tries to back out of the fight when things get rough for him. tycoonmike

That's just how you want to see it. Not much I can do about that.

Agnostic theism is basically the idea that the person in question doesn't know if God exists, but he believes in It despite this.

tycoonmike

Then "confused" should be another word for agnostic theism, because it makes no sense to believe in something that you're not sure is there...in fact, how could you believe? There's nothing to anchor your beliefs to. You wouldn't know where to start. What does this god look like? Who is he? Where is he? etc. Makes no sense whatsoever.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] First show me where I stated God is real.LJS9502_basic

For the billionth time dude...when you say you believe in god, you're also stating that he is real. Because by default, you can't hold a serious belief in something that you know deep down isn't real.

Answer the question though, or are you dodging me now?

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD IS REAL? Answer this please.

Just answer the question. Do you believe god is real?

Just answer the question. Do you believe god is real?

Deity_Slapper

[QUOTE="sutherland19"]

I wasn't saying I had any, just saying that your proof, isn't proof at all really.

LJS9502_basic

From what I gathered from skimming the thread. Didn't want to read through 30 pages of all of the same arguments, was that Diety is saying there is no seperation of Church and State, and you are saying there is. Diety gave some small examples of where there isn't, that you simply shrugged off as "sayings", when they are legitimate instances of the two meshing. Then the only counter argument I've seen you make is that: the law says there is a seperation of church and state, and I simply stated, this doesn't PROVE that there is, since many laws are broken.

Then you go on to claim that you are the only one that provided evidence...wait WAT?!...diety's examples, just like your example of the law, is evidence. You can't simply dismiss someone elses evidence because it doesn't agree with your point. So what if they were simply sayings that he used as evidence, they still are evidence of the meld of Church and State. They aren't extreme examples, I'll give you that, but they are still, evidence, so don't lie and say you are the sole person to give evidence either way.

Then "confused" should be another word for agnostic theism, because it makes no sense to believe in something that you're not sure is there...in fact, how could you believe? There's nothing to anchor your beliefs to. You wouldn't know where to start. What does this god look like? Who is he? Where is he? etc. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Deity_Slapper

All of which are answered by one word: "Yes."

God is omnipotent, therefore the only answers that truly define your questions are relatives, not absolutes. My entire problem is that you are answering questions such as "Who is God?" with absolutes when the concept of God renders such answers inadequate. I know exactly where to start, the mathematical concept of infinity, and I leave it at that, because I have accepted that I will not know the answer during my life. Indeed, can you comprehend the vastness of the mathematical concept of infinity? I sure can't.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Just answer the question. Do you believe god is real?

LJS9502_basic

:lol:

You know, it's funny that for the past 15 minutes you were claiming that I was avoiding your question (when I wasn't), but then when I ask a VERY SIMPLE question 3 TIMES...you keep dancing around it.

Pot calling the kettle black?

I don't care if the thread is about your beliefs or not...I asked a simple question. It's relative to what we're discussing IN THIS THREAD. Therefore, it's relevant. Answer the question already.

You know what really grind's my gear's?

Why is that a little white man and his white angels are all white people? I am a white person myself but I'd rather turn gay then believe for a second this invisiable white dude exists. Why are their no black or asian angels? I mean, are christains narrow minded or what?

CoreoVII

What the heck are you talking about dude? No Christian claims that God even takes a physical form, let alone that he is white! Angels appear in many different forms thoughout New Testament times, most commonly ordinary men, probably Aisan looking, dark skinned. No descprition I've ever read states them as being white. That whole post seriously makes me think you either know nothing about Christianity or that that it is a joke.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Then "confused" should be another word for agnostic theism, because it makes no sense to believe in something that you're not sure is there...in fact, how could you believe? There's nothing to anchor your beliefs to. You wouldn't know where to start. What does this god look like? Who is he? Where is he? etc. Makes no sense whatsoever.

tycoonmike

All of which are answered by one word: "Yes."

God is omnipotent, therefore the only answers that truly define your questions are relatives, not absolutes. My entire problem is that you are answering questions such as "Who is God?" with absolutes when the concept of God renders such answers inadequate. I know exactly where to start, the mathematical concept of infinity, and I leave it at that, because I have accepted that I will not know the answer during my life. Indeed, can you comprehend the vastness of the mathematical concept of infinity? I sure can't.

Just nit-picking here, but the concept of infinity is easy to comprehend, its imagining infinity that will drive you crazy. =D

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sutherland19"]

I wasn't saying I had any, just saying that your proof, isn't proof at all really.

sutherland19

From what I gathered from skimming the thread. Didn't want to read through 30 pages of all of the same arguments, was that Diety is saying there is no seperation of Church and State, and you are saying there is. Diety gave some small examples of where there isn't, that you simply shrugged off as "sayings", when they are legitimate instances of the two meshing. Then the only counter argument I've seen you make is that: the law says there is a seperation of church and state, and I simply stated, this doesn't PROVE that there is, since many laws are broken.

Then you go on to claim that you are the only one that provided evidence...wait WAT?!...diety's examples, just like your example of the law, is evidence. You can't simply dismiss someone elses evidence because it doesn't agree with your point. So what if they were simply sayings that he used as evidence, they still are evidence of the meld of Church and State. They aren't extreme examples, I'll give you that, but they are still, evidence, so don't lie and say you are the sole person to give evidence either way.

Wow...what a concrete argument that DOES NOT prove his initial statement.:roll:

Diety gave some small examples of where there isn't, that you simply shrugged off as "sayings", when they are legitimate instances of the two meshing. sutherland19

Thank you. I know.

Then you go on to claim that you are the only one that provided evidence...wait WAT?!...diety's examples, just like your example of the law, is evidence. You can't simply dismiss someone elses evidence because it doesn't agree with your point. So what if they were simply sayings that he used as evidence, they still are evidence of the meld of Church and State. They aren't extreme examples, I'll give you that, but they are still, evidence,so don't lie and say you are the sole person to give evidence either way.

sutherland19

Again, exactly. And thank you. It's about time someone else called him on this crap.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Just answer the question. Do you believe god is real?

Deity_Slapper

:lol:

You know, it's funny that for the past 15 minutes you were claiming that I was avoiding your question (when I wasn't), but then when I ask a VERY SIMPLE question 3 TIMES...you keep dancing around it.

Pot calling the kettle black?

I don't care if the thread is about your beliefs or not...I asked a simple question. It's relative to what we're discussing IN THIS THREAD. Therefore, it's relevant. Answer the question already.

[QUOTE="sutherland19"] [QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sutherland19"]

I wasn't saying I had any, just saying that your proof, isn't proof at all really.

LJS9502_basic

From what I gathered from skimming the thread. Didn't want to read through 30 pages of all of the same arguments, was that Diety is saying there is no seperation of Church and State, and you are saying there is. Diety gave some small examples of where there isn't, that you simply shrugged off as "sayings", when they are legitimate instances of the two meshing. Then the only counter argument I've seen you make is that: the law says there is a seperation of church and state, and I simply stated, this doesn't PROVE that there is, since many laws are broken.

Then you go on to claim that you are the only one that provided evidence...wait WAT?!...diety's examples, just like your example of the law, is evidence. You can't simply dismiss someone elses evidence because it doesn't agree with your point. So what if they were simply sayings that he used as evidence, they still are evidence of the meld of Church and State. They aren't extreme examples, I'll give you that, but they are still, evidence, so don't lie and say you are the sole person to give evidence either way.

Wow...what a concrete argument that DOES NOT prove his initial statement.:roll:

My post still stands. Just because you preceive an argument to be weak, doesn't mean you can completely disregard it.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Just answer the question. Do you believe god is real?

LJS9502_basic

:lol:

You know, it's funny that for the past 15 minutes you were claiming that I was avoiding your question (when I wasn't), but then when I ask a VERY SIMPLE question 3 TIMES...you keep dancing around it.

Pot calling the kettle black?

I don't care if the thread is about your beliefs or not...I asked a simple question. It's relative to what we're discussing IN THIS THREAD. Therefore, it's relevant. Answer the question already.

More irony. :lol:

YOU are mistaken if you think that I can't see that YOU are trying to twist everything.

Like you just said that I used money and a pledge to prove that government and religion are banding together to control the masses. That ISN'T EVEN CLOSE to what was going on. The points about the money and the pledge were simply to PROVE TO YOU that there is NO seperation of church and state. It was NOT to prove any theories of mass population control. That was seperate. You're twisting, and you think I don't notice...hahaha...

My post still stands. Just because you preceive an argument to be weak, doesn't mean you can completely disregard it.

sutherland19

I presented a fact this country has used for quite some time. Notice that one can't display a Christmas decoration on ANYTHING GOVERNMENT RELATED...and tell me religion rules the country.:roll:

Coinage does not translate to government using fear of religion to rule the masses nor does his other sayings.

LJS9502_basic

There you go again. :roll:

Coinage does not prove mass population control, but it does prove there is no complete seperation of chruch and state. So does the fact that "so help you god" is still uttered in courthouses today. Like it was TO ME.

[QUOTE="sutherland19"]

My post still stands. Just because you preceive an argument to be weak, doesn't mean you can completely disregard it.

LJS9502_basic

I presented a fact this country has used for quite some time. Notice that one can't display a Christmas decoration on ANYTHING GOVERNMENT RELATED...and tell me religion rules the country.:roll:

Actually his examples did provide some evidence. The "So help you god" while holding a hand on the bible, and swearing, is a scare tactic to help ensure that they tell the truth, its saying they are making a promise to God to tell the truth, and if they don't, well so help you, may he have mercy, I'm quite sure thats using religion as a tool of fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and persuader.

Also, I know he didn't say this, but his argument, has to be proved in two steps, first, that Religion and Government aren't seperate, and then second, that Government uses Religion to instigate fear to keep people in line etc. His arguments weren't "Blow you away convincing" but they certainly held some merit in what he was trying to prove.

[QUOTE="edgewalker16"]

You should all watch this documentary called "Jesus Camp". It's about 90 minutes long and fairly interesting. I tried watching it once and the first 30 minutes kinda creeped me out...I was bored one day and decided to finish it. I'll let you form your own opinions, but I think the documentary sums up this whole thread quite nicely.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=43408

Theokhoth

How in the world does a documentary about a bunch of crazed Bush-worshippers sum up this topic, again?:|

Theokhoth, I have a question for you. Do you consider yourself a homosexual liberal Christian? I've been wondering this for the past few days so I thought I would ask. By the way, I can't believe how many posts you've achieved. :D

Has no one realized that this is a GAMING site called GAMESPOT.SynysterFreak

Have you not realized this is a section called OFF-TOPIC?!?! :?

(Which means ANYTHING not about the main topic of the website, which is gaming.)

Why don't you go into the politics and girl threads and cry the same crap. "Hey! Why are people discussing Obama? This is a gaming site! Hey! How come people are discussing girl problems? This is a gaming site!"

Actually his examples did provide some evidence. The "So help you god" while holding a hand on the bible, and swearing, is a scare tactic to help ensure that they tell the truth, its saying they are making a promise to God to tell the truth, and if they don't, well so help you, may he have mercy, I'm quite sure thats using religion as a tool of fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and persuader.

Also, I know he didn't say this, but his argument, has to be proved in two steps, first, that Religion and Government aren't seperate, and then second, that Government uses Religion to instigate fear to keep people in line etc. His arguments weren't "Blow you away convincing" but they certainly held some merit in what he was trying to prove.

sutherland19

Got to go...

How do these threads always tend to start with one question, lead to another question, and snowball into like twenty full-blown arguments... 0.o

Lol, I love religious threads, but they usually tend to go way off-track =P

Actually his examples did provide some evidence. The "So help you god" while holding a hand on the bible, and swearing, is a scare tactic to help ensure that they tell the truth, its saying they are making a promise to God to tell the truth, and if they don't, well so help you, may he have mercy, I'm quite sure thats using religion as a tool of fear. Fear is a powerful motivator and persuader.

Also, I know he didn't say this, but his argument, has to be proved in two steps, first, that Religion and Government aren't seperate, and then second, that Government uses Religion to instigate fear to keep people in line etc. His arguments weren't "Blow you away convincing" but they certainly held some merit in what he was trying to prove.

sutherland19

Yes, that is what I was suggesting. At least someone gets it. The fact that they use your fear of god against you to get you to play their game. Not that it proves mass population control, that's just a theory...BUT IT DOES PROVE that there is no complete seperation of church and state, which is what I was really focusing on there for a while with LJ...the stuff he kept dodging.

How do these threads always tend to start with one question, lead to another question, and snowball into like twenty full-blown arguments... 0.o

Lol, I love religious threads, but they usually tend to go way off-track =P

criinok

Its just how discussion works, it evolves. If every time you tried to talk to someone and you brought up a topic, and all you talked about was that topic and it never led into any branching conversations, like "Oh that reminds me..." You would be a pretty boring conversationalist imo.