Gun Attack on French Magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 12.

Ban all religion and treat it like a mental illness, close borders and put massive checks on everybody coming in, There, problem solved.

Hmm, that depends on how you look at Authority not to mention that some can be moved from government to private institutions.

Hmm, not all in uk uses those terms, not to mention its a bit confusing, Anyways the key in this debate is not the terms, its the fact that when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of religion no state should interfere. And sure everyone has the right to a decent education but that right is not above the freedom of speech. So yes i would be ok with a non-govt school taught that the world was flat and 2+2 was 5. Because that is what comes with a democracy and what freedom to speak your mind is all about. Because that school might teach these things but no one is forced to go there and listen to them. And that is the key, no one is or should be forced to listen.

Same thing with these drawings, if any muslim is offended by them. They have the right to refuse to support the paper.

As to the Govt. Interfering, well its a wholly voluntary support, so while its the state's job to secure a good and healthy education where we can agree that creationism have no place any where else than in religion-classes. They are not actually going against the schools right. The school can say screw funding and fund it themselves and do what they want.

People were out in droves on the streets showing support for the victims mere hours after it happened while the terrorists were still at large. Nothing pussy about that.

It's comments like this that just breeds more anti-Western hatred. I personally despise the religion and it's founder (and his questionable behaviour that if mentioned, ends up with a moderation here for some stupid reason)... but I fully support it's right to exist and people's right to practice it.

SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS. When that occurs, they can go **** themselves.

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Then there is this piece of human garbage: http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.623/uk-s-radical-islamic-cleric-anjem-choudary-defends-paris-shootings.html?fb_action_ids=10155092905185331&fb_action_types=og.comments

For several years France has been providing material assistance to Wahhabi fundamentalists seeking to overthrow the legitimate, democratically-elected government of Bashar al-Assad in Syria.

In doing so, France has helped to perpetuate a hideous civil war that has caused in excess of 100,000 civilian deaths, including those of an estimated 11420 children.

Given that the Paris attack was committed by the same sort of people that France has been using as proxies against Syria, I'm hard-pressed to deny that I sense a sort of "poetic justice" at play here.

And what is it that you'e addressing? I was talking about how complete freedom of speech is bullshit because spreading lies is wrong. If you think I'm against jokes and satirical magazines then you must be out of your mind.

You didn't understand what was saying. What I was discussing at that point was barely related to Islam/religion. I was speaking against this ridiculous definition of freedom of speech by which spreading lies is ok with you guys. However it's not ok with me. Yes it's your laws and it's none of the Muslims' business but it doesn't make it any less stupid an morally backward.

@LostProphetFLCL: OK I can't understand how people like yourself can equate these sociopaths to a religion. Sure they may follow Islam, but why do THEY represent it? Why not Mr. Sattar (runs a social welfare program in Pakistan) or Mr. Salman Khan (you know his videos helped you pass your classes)? Muslims aren't one giant hive mind you know; we are the most diverse religious group on the planet. Hundreds of Islamic scholars have denounced the actions of ISIS and no sane person will stand by these psychos; yet knowing this (or not which is likely) you have the gall to say these people and their actions are MY responsibility?!

Also just to be clear I believe that in the field of satire more freedom should be allowed. As long as no one is going to take it seriously that is.

Yes there are some disgusting things that people associate with him (even Muslims). Like the banu quraysa incident which is a complete lie. But you shouldn't take them as facts. I partly blame the fundamentalists who think whatever's written in the two sahihs or some of the sirahs is divine facts. All those books have been written more than two hounded years after he had passed away. That means during the reign of the corrupted ummayad caliphs who fabricated many hadiths in their favor. How some people can take those books as facts without a shred of doubt is beyond me.

i seriously can't believe that some people are blaming the magazine. " Islam is not a part of western culture"? what kinda of argument is that? Muslims have been living amongst Christians for ages. the cultural bound is actually pretty tight. its just that Muslims never fully dissolve into another culture, they always stay on the surface like a freakin' emulsion. those fuckin' idiots use the freedom and well being of Europeans, yet refuse to be a part of it when when it comes to their belief.

I have to ask again what lies?

Also you clearly do not understand the concept of morality or the reason why we in the west have democracy and have gone way past the idea of allowing religion to dictate our lives for us. If you really think that the west has a morality problem because we have freedom of speech so embedded in our constitutions and laws.

@VaguelyTagged: I'm an American Muslim so idk what the scene is Europe, but why should they "fully dissolve" into your culture? As long as they're following your laws, they don't have to follow your culture.

@alim298: Bro I just want to say our morals are not the same as theirs. Our Prophet forbade mocking even the unbelievers so you can see that our concept of freedom of speech is very different. Our concept involves freedom as long as it does not mock others. Secondly, I want to say that we really are pretty helpless in these situations. The thing is, a lot of Muslims are residing in places where people hate Islam and would do anything to extinguish its light. So, there is nothing we can do except write letters and protest peacefully against these offensive images. But there is a big problem here. In Western law, insulting others is indeed part of the freedom of speech concept that they have. Their law allows mockery of others and so if we don't like this the only option we have is to move to a place where the law is different.

What do you mean by what lies? There are lies. Have people forgot about those danish cartoons? They are a good example of lies and inappropriate content.

As for freedom of speech I still think the way it's defined in the west is ridiculous and goes against basic human morality.

Fighting the ideals of Islamic extremists with the pen is every bit as important as fighting them with guns and bullets. These people were as brave as any solider and had the courage to challenge what is considered by some to be sacred and beyond criticism. This form of satire dates back to the French revolution and to a time in Europe where similar acts of violence were carried out on those who questioned divine right and other beliefs that were considered beyond criticism.

You can't have progress without challenging dogma and challenging it has always been very dangerous throughout history but the benefits that come with it are worth fighting and dying for. Today we too often take all that has been gained by challenging religious and social dogma for granted. The improvements in living standards through technology and increased personal freedoms the west now enjoys are largely because someone was willing to risk their life to challenge the accepted dogmas of their times.

The idea that integration and assimilation is a liability or obligation is moot really. No one should be forced to assimilate, they should just observe the law so long as it is reasonable enough to do so which is the case in many parts of Europe. This goes to show the impossibility of multiculturalism, at least as promoted and the unsustainability of a certain mode of existence of a civilization.

This is indeed a tragic incident. I do not agree with satire and mockery of what some people hold most dear and consecrated. In fact I consider it highly indecent, callous, vile and quite frankly sentimentally deficient that speaks about the worth and overall growth of a man and the nature and value of what dwells in him. However, I wouldn't shed blood over it and antagonize an entire culture for it.

culture should be a flowing thing,. you can not simultaneously preserve your culture and live in peace with the others. no one said anything about following European culture. it's about cultural trade. that's how you level up your tolerance. if they want a fully preserved culture they should leave Europe and the US and get back to their hellholes. it's as simple. (btw, i live in one of those hellholes)

That's what I've been trying to say.

However I don't believe that we should just let this depraved understanding of freedom of speech run free. The world has changed and just like they criticize ME for some of it's faults we should criticize them for their faults too. Although in a peaceful manner.

I'm in no way trying to be callous or unsympathetic to what happened in France, but I think you'd be really pushing the envelope by categorizing what the magazine was engaged in as heroic and noble. There is nothing consecrated or elevated in mocking what others hold dear and venerated, that's just ill-willed and malevolent and quite distasteful too. Besides, what dogma was this magazine allegedly fighting? What does anyone stand to benefit from caricaturing the prophet? What is the message being delivered exactly? Europe has made its choice: abolishing religion and virtue and embracing secularism, pluralistic democracy, unabridged liberties alongside licentiousness and debauchery. Europeans fought and struggled for their own ends and for their right of self-determining their mode of existence and their values. The task has ended and has been crowned with exceptional success. Now, extend this liberty to others and let them be.

@VaguelyTagged: Agreed on the cultural trade aspect. My parents are conservative and they didn't agree with a lot of things here in the US at first. However, they became accustomed to a lot of the things their friends did, such as drinking, but they themselves did not partake in such activities. Now when you say immigrants should go back if they want a " fully preserved culture" do you mean to say they should abandon the morals they grew up with?

You really should. There are many aspects of western culture today that suffer from a great sickness in my view and there are many elements of Islamic beliefs that are positive and needed to challenge our own dogmas. You might be less likely to be killed by challenging accepted western dogmas but it is still very dangerous to go against these accepted dogmas without incurring social and financial penalties. Not everyone who challenged accepted views has a good point to make but it is not helpful for society to try to silence people through violence or any other method and in the long run it doesn't work anyway.

it's an obligation if one wants to live in peace with a locally dominant culture which has accepted them. when you just obey the rules without understanding them, the amassed anger will bursts out sooner or later.

They might have points to make or they might not. That is for history to decide not me but merely showing that something that is believed to be beyond criticism can be criticised is a positive in my view. If any points they made are ridiculous they should be easily rebuffed through free and open debate or simply ignored as stupidity. By taking such great offence and killing these people their works will now be seen by millions who otherwise would have never heard of these people. You can't fight ideas with guns, not even bad ideas.

To reiterate I'm not condoning or excusing shedding blood over this I was merely pointing out the fact that there is nothing heroic or noble in what the magazine does and most importantly its completely moot it serves no national interest whatsoever; quite the contrary in fact and this among other incidents is an evidence of this. We don't have to wait for history to decide anything we're experiencing the ramifications firsthand and even from an unconventional, progressive, critical and revolutionary/reformation point of view there is absolutely nothing to be gained whatsoever from this for European societies. I'd understand if a Middle Eastern was doing it, but why a European would go out of his way to involve himself in this is beyond me.

That's hardly their fault really. You can't dictate on people what to think, you can however rule over them one way or another. That's the extent of the control you can exert on them.

@GazaAli:

I disagree. The fortitude to express views despite the existence of people who will murder you for those views is both noble and heroic. We would not have what we have today in the west without people like this no matter how unpopular their views were at the time they expressed them to those who were subject to their criticism. If there is anything that is beyond criticism or ridicule you won't have progress, as simple as that. History has proved this and I'm sure it will continue to prove this.

drawings are not lies , and what about the danish drawings? they are just caricatures of some "fictional" character and no one is going to force anyone to look or even acknowledge them. So no they are not lies or a inappropriate content, particular not since Denmark last i checked wasn't a muslim kalifat. If they had been done in Iran or Iraq or a muslim country then i would understand that they would be inappropriate.

Great, you have every right to stand up and say that freedom of speech is crap, because that is your freedom (hope you see the irony). And if you really think the way the west does things is stupid, you again have the freedom to decide to live in a more muslim country, im sure Syria or Iran&Iraq will stand with open arms to accept you there. But don't ever expect western countries to live by muslim laws or stop making fun of some for us fictional character. Like we wont stop making fun of Jebus, Buddha, Shiva or any other religious, fictional, non-fictional person.

why even take the piss about someone who is loved by millions?

i don't justify these attacks, but at the same time why mock the Prophets and say nasty things?

Why? because that is a fundamental right. Freedom of Speech is again a corner stone in any democracy.

And what about when there is being made fun of Jebus or the catholic priests tendencies to young alter boys? or the pope?

What fictional character?

Which one do you think.... Muhammed, allah, jebus, buddha, shiva, etc...... etc....... etc........

I'm pretty sure Muhammed wasn't a fictional character. I could say the same thing about buddha.

Love the repeated posts of "I'm not justifying the attacks, but I have to ask a question that sounds an awful lot like I am trying to justify the attacks."

And? It still doesn't change that the drawings or cartoons are not lies, they are satire. And that no muslim in Denmark or France or any western minded country has a right to demand that islamic laws are being upheld by non-muslims.

Things like this happening in Europe are gonna get more and more common. They've been immigrating so many Muslims into their countries because of Europe's low fertility rates that it's estimated that quite a few European countries could be Muslim countries in 50 years. Seems to me that a better solution to low fertility is to ban or at least put limits on abortion but they'd rather import millions of people from the most backwards countries on Earth.

You don't kill people for insulting you. At worst you insult them back.

Yeah, that was hilarious. Like people who are willing to kill a dozen people are gonna care that it's illegal to have the guns they're shooting the people with.

Think you are missing a 0 there. But those kinds of thoughts are still purely propaganda from ultra-rightwing extremist.

Yes Europe has a lot of countries where the low birth-rate is a problem, but not even in the smaller countries with a small population would 50years even remotely make muslims a majority.

You think 500 years? LMMAO. Not sure if the 50 years number is dead on balls accurate, is the number I've frequently heard thrown around, but 500 years is insanely, comically optimistic. Hell, it's denial. America went from being not very ethnically diverse to very much so in a few decades because of immigration (And before you go telling me America has been immigrating for centuries my response to that is: not really. For the longest time America was getting its immigrants almost entirely from Europe until eventually there was a freeze put on immigration that lasted several decades. It wasn't until the mid to late 1960s that immigration really got going again and that's when it opened up to multiple spots on the globe. But that new way of doing it started with a trickle. It would still be a while before America was mass immigrating from the third world like it is now) yet you think it'll take 5 centuries for Europe to become Muslim if it keeps immigrating Muslims at the levels it currently does?!!!

But love how you threw ultra-rightwing extremist in there. :) I guess it's kinda of a rule for the left to always throw in the words "extremist" or "racist" at least once every other sentence when topics like this get brought up.

@Hexagon_777 said:

@indzman said:

Making fun of mohammad via cartoons is also not nice ... imo, but killing people just for cartoons is tottaly not acceptable. These western guys should stop making fun of islam also since they know it insults ones religion and they retaliate. Why provoke ? Just my 2 cents :)

Picture is blank =P

While Muhammad was real the character was fake. Same with Jesus.

This is what I don't get: (http://rt.com/news/220819-attack-mosque-france-paris/). Attacking a mosque and prayer rooms seems pretty violent to me. Guess the West isn't that peace-loving after all.

So far - reading this thread: I have seen people saying they (as in all of Islam) should be wiped out. They are "violent", "entitled" people. They are uneducated. And that they should be separated from us. And that if you defend them in any way: you are an enemy.

Absolutely. Seen many people holding pens up and proclaiming them as heroes of "freedom of speech".

When the Nazi's also produced similar art depicting Jewish people as sub-human; money grubbing monster like apes; was this heroic and noble?

Quite a few people in this thread are starting to sound like Germans during that time period.

That's absurd. Leftists make it a point to mock christians at every turn but then you're gonna say that nobody should dare ever offend a muslim? Freedom of speech is what western society is built on. Without that you have nothing.

Never said that at all.

An infant would know what he meant by that.

I get a kick out of your repeated one-line requests for clarification ... just looking for an opportunity to pounce with a juvenile "racist!" remark like the good little thought-policeman you are.

@uninspiredcup: Honest to G, whenever someone poses a somewhat well thought question, fellas like LostProphet tend to put words in the OP's mouth or shell out "But Freedom of Speech doeeee", while spewing hate on an entire people worthy of, as you said, Germans during WWII