High Income inequality is detrimental to a societies wellbeing.

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] No I mean the opposite of that...

themajormayor

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] So how do you propose we reduce this income equality exactly.Crunchy_Nuts

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"][QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

I'd like someone to explain to me how wages are determined and why. Thanks.

SpartanMSU

You didn't answer my question...

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"] I think you misunderstand. The goal is not to pinpoint an exact wage for every type of labor in the country, just to guide wages and income in general so that it is more evenly distributed throughout our whole society. This is to combat the trend in recent decades of more and more wealth being concentrated in a small percentage of the population. EntropyWins

You didn't answer my question...

liberal welfare system = US system (needs-based)

social democratic = Swedish system (general benefits like schooling, healthcare), basically redistribution of wealth through taxation

The social benefits are the main attraction here, as they reduce the wealth gap and increase confidence in the economy for persons in the middle to lower classes. The fact of the matter is that, if you only focus on your money and absolutely nothing else, you fail to see how the social benefits would translate into a stronger market, and thus lower product prices so you could, in fact, get more for your money.

THE_DRUGGIE

Lets just take tuition as an example. Tuition is as high as it is because the government will guarantee a loan for anybody who wants to go to school. The colleges can charge whatever the hell they want because they know the government will give the student the loan. How will that change under a social democratic welfare system without increasing taxes insanely on the rest of us?

I think you misunderstand. The goal is not to pinpoint an exact wage for every type of labor in the country, just to guide wages and income in general so that it is more evenly distributed throughout our whole society. This is to combat the trend in recent decades of more and more wealth being concentrated in a small percentage of the population. EntropyWins

You didn't answer my question...

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"] I'm not saying we should. What are you talking about?themajormayor

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"][QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

You didn't answer my question...

themajormayor

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"] I think you misunderstand. The goal is not to pinpoint an exact wage for every type of labor in the country, just to guide wages and income in general so that it is more evenly distributed throughout our whole society. This is to combat the trend in recent decades of more and more wealth being concentrated in a small percentage of the population. EntropyWins

You didn't answer my question...

How are wages deterimined in a free-market?

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] Great. So we leave the system as it is.

Crunchy_Nuts

No I posted a list of criteria behind the freedom index map I showed you. It only shows how the measure economic freedom.

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

liberal welfare system = US system (needs-based)

social democratic = Swedish system (general benefits like schooling, healthcare), basically redistribution of wealth through taxation

The social benefits are the main attraction here, as they reduce the wealth gap and increase confidence in the economy for persons in the middle to lower classes. The fact of the matter is that, if you only focus on your money and absolutely nothing else, you fail to see how the social benefits would translate into a stronger market, and thus lower product prices so you could, in fact, get more for your money.

airshocker

Lets just take tuition as an example. Tuition is as high as it is because the government will guarantee a loan for anybody who wants to go to school. The colleges can charge whatever the hell they want because they know the government will give the student the loan. How will that change under a social democratic welfare system without increasing taxes insanely on the rest of us?

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are more strict.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="EntropyWins"] To be more direct, employers would determine wages, but within a set criteria established by the gov't. So basically the same as now except with a stricter gov't criteria. xscrapzx

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

liberal welfare system = US system (needs-based)

social democratic = Swedish system (general benefits like schooling, healthcare), basically redistribution of wealth through taxation

The social benefits are the main attraction here, as they reduce the wealth gap and increase confidence in the economy for persons in the middle to lower classes. The fact of the matter is that, if you only focus on your money and absolutely nothing else, you fail to see how the social benefits would translate into a stronger market, and thus lower product prices so you could, in fact, get more for your money.

THE_DRUGGIE

Lets just take tuition as an example. Tuition is as high as it is because the government will guarantee a loan for anybody who wants to go to school. The colleges can charge whatever the hell they want because they know the government will give the student the loan. How will that change under a social democratic welfare system without increasing taxes insanely on the rest of us?

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are morestrict.

Anyone can get a student loan in Sweden. There are no requirements except that you're a student.

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

Lets just take tuition as an example. Tuition is as high as it is because the government will guarantee a loan for anybody who wants to go to school. The colleges can charge whatever the hell they want because they know the government will give the student the loan. How will that change under a social democratic welfare system without increasing taxes insanely on the rest of us?

themajormayor

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are morestrict.

Anyone can get a student loan in Sweden. There are no requirements except that you're a student.

Notice the word "effectively."

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are more strict.

THE_DRUGGIE

What do you mean?

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are morestrict.

THE_DRUGGIE

Anyone can get a student loan in Sweden. There are no requirements except that you're a student.

Notice the word "effectively."

Examples then?

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are more strict.

airshocker

What do you mean?

What do you think it means?

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

The entry requirements for countries utilizing that system effectively are morestrict.

THE_DRUGGIE

Anyone can get a student loan in Sweden. There are no requirements except that you're a student.

Notice the word "effectively."

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] What are you talking about? I've never said anything elsethemajormayor

No I posted a list of criteria behind the freedom index map I showed you. It only shows how the measure economic freedom.

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

Anyone can get a student loan in Sweden. There are no requirements except that you're a student.

themajormayor

Notice the word "effectively."

That's fantastic.

What do you think it means?

THE_DRUGGIE

You spoke of countries, I asked you a question related to the US.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] You posted a list of ways to get more freedoms. I said we already have enough and our system is fair. You said this system would be more freer from government regulation. I said - Yes, but introducing more government first then it gets all confusing from there.Crunchy_Nuts

No I posted a list of criteria behind the freedom index map I showed you. It only shows how the measure economic freedom.

[QUOTE="EntropyWins"][QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

You didn't answer my question...

SpartanMSU

How are wages deterimined in a free-market?

Still waiting...

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

What do you think it means?

airshocker

You spoke of countries, I asked you a question related to the US.

How am I going to explain a social democratic system by using an example country that does not use a social democratic system?

Aliens?

...you know what, screw it. Aliens.

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"][QUOTE="themajormayor"]

No I posted a list of criteria behind the freedom index map I showed you. It only shows how the measure economic freedom.

themajormayor

How am I going to explain a social democratic system by using an example country that does not use a social democratic system?

Aliens?

...you know what, screw it. Aliens.

THE_DRUGGIE

I'm asking you tp speculate on how such a system would keep tuition reasonable in order to keep taxes low. Our current system can't do that, so I'm wondering how the system you're proposing would.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] OK, and I posted why I don't think everyone deserves economic freedom. Maybe I just read too much into it.Crunchy_Nuts

You mean they should have lower taxes than less productive people?

themajormayor

I think he means they should have more dispoable income.

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

:roll:cmon dude, that's like saying that all that capitalism does is foster inequality. oh wait...

airshocker

Then how exactly will socialism benefit me? Give me a point by point analysis.

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"] What do you mean with that?themajormayor

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

nZiFFLe

That's one of the reasons why I don't like it.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

:roll:cmon dude, that's like saying that all that capitalism does is foster inequality. oh wait...

Then how exactly will socialism benefit me? Give me a point by point analysis.

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

You mean they should have lower taxes than less productive people?

airshocker

I think he means they should have more dispoable income.

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

airshocker

That's one of the reasons why I don't like it.

Socialism is as flawed as a laiz faire free market.. Neither work in their pure forms, we always must strike a balance between the two.. One would think people would understand this with avery basic understanding of the Nash Equilibrium.

[QUOTE="themajormayor"]

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] People who are more productive deserve more economic freedom IMO.

Crunchy_Nuts

Well this is a given, the wage descripency is disgusting compared to the rest of the west.. I don't think any one here would say we should all be paid equally, that is just not realistic nor possible.. But at the same time we should not some how accept the kind of wealth gap that there is in the US compared to the rest of the west.. The average European CEO gets paid some 40 to 50 times more then their average worker.. The US difference is 3 to 4 times that descrepency of the rest of West.. Clearly something is wrong here when statistically US workers are not only getting less vacation days, are not as healthy, but they are not getting paid any where close to their European counterparts.... When it comes to taxes we need tax reform and a increase in capital gains tax.. We need to close loop holes.. Because as it stands the rich and corporations pay no where near the supposed % they are suppose to pay.. Due to loopholes.. In the end of the day, I am pretty certain no one wants to see other people struggling.. Nor do people want to see the destruction of a class, such as the rich.. But at this time the burden of the economy has literally fallen on the middle and lower class.. While the upper class literally have gotten geometrically richer and literally have provided nothing new to the economy on top of that.. Take look at General Electric.. The US not only taxed them 0% last period, but the US gave them subsidies.. What did they do in return? they cut jobs in the US.. Our system needs to be based upon results not expectations that never happen.. sSubZerOo

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

:roll:cmon dude, that's like saying that all that capitalism does is foster inequality. oh wait...

nZiFFLe

Then how exactly will socialism benefit me? Give me a point by point analysis.

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"]

[QUOTE="themajormayor"] You mean they should have lower taxes than less productive people?

themajormayor

another revolution waiting, though could be more than a hundred years away. they almost always lead to a slight evolution in government.

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

How am I going to explain a social democratic system by using an example country that does not use a social democratic system?

Aliens?

...you know what, screw it. Aliens.

airshocker

I'm asking you tp speculate on how such a system would keep tuition reasonable in order to keep taxes low. Our current system can't do that, so I'm wondering how the system you're proposing would do that.

Keeping taxes low in a mixed economy is stupid.

Look, I'm going to be level with you for a second: I already know that you're assuming I'm a commie for trying to explain socialism in a way that doesn't conclude that it leads to an Orwellian government, but for the love of all that's holy, do you really think that low taxes are the solution to social ills in every single case? Do you consider social effects? Do you know what a social trend is? Do you look beyond your own bank account when you're talking about economic systems? You seem to be saying "taxes are bad and higher taxes means less money for me because taxes don't do anything." On that note, do you know what taxes do except for taking a small bit out of your paycheck?

Do you know what a government is?

These are all valid questions, considering your singlemindedness on this and, quite frankly, every other topic I've seen you comment on. I'm having a hard time thinking a policeman, who is involved in community functions, can be so disconnected with the concept of community that he thinks that taxes only make you have less money and don't give you a single goddamn benefit whatsoever.

I've been answering your questions for this whole thread, so I think it's time for you to answer some of mine. If you're not willing to answer here, then please just PM me some answers.

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

Then how exactly will socialism benefit me? Give me a point by point analysis.

xscrapzx

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.

Well this is a given, the wage descripency is disgusting compared to the rest of the west.. I don't think any one here would say we should all be paid equally, that is just not realistic nor possible.. But at the same time we should not some how accept the kind of wealth gap that there is in the US compared to the rest of the west.. The average European CEO gets paid some 40 to 50 times more then their average worker.. The US difference is 3 to 4 times that descrepency of the rest of West.. Clearly something is wrong here when statistically US workers are not only getting less vacation days, are not as healthy, but they are not getting paid any where close to their European counterparts.... When it comes to taxes we need tax reform and a increase in capital gains tax.. We need to close loop holes.. Because as it stands the rich and corporations pay no where near the supposed % they are suppose to pay.. Due to loopholes.. In the end of the day, I am pretty certain no one wants to see other people struggling.. Nor do people want to see the destruction of a class, such as the rich.. But at this time the burden of the economy has literally fallen on the middle and lower class.. While the upper class literally have gotten geometrically richer and literally have provided nothing new to the economy on top of that.. Take look at General Electric.. The US not only taxed them 0% last period, but the US gave them subsidies.. What did they do in return? they cut jobs in the US.. Our system needs to be based upon results not expectations that never happen.. sSubZerOo

Also there is a reason why that GE didn't get taxed and that is because their moeny is not here in the U.S. for it to get taxed. Secondly rich pay taxes too, you may think not enough, but someone making 5 million a year, pays about 2 million in taxes. If you think they need to pay more, then cleary there is something wrong with the government.

Still waiting...

SpartanMSU

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] I think everyone should have lower taxes. And they should be able to spend a higher proportion of money on what they want.

Crunchy_Nuts

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

Then how exactly will socialism benefit me? Give me a point by point analysis.

themajormayor

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

that's arguable...but i'll admit, history supports that arguement. albeit, there has never really been a true socialist state.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

nZiFFLe

no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.

People need to get it through their thick skulls and not drink the cool aid that certain politicians have spouted off that every one, one day will become the "successful".. Its mathmatically impossible, and this very rhetoric is harming our system rather then helping it by ignoring the problems we have in our system..

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

nZiFFLe

that's arguable...but i'll admit, history supports that arguement. albeit, there has never really been a true socialist state.

[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

Well at the end of the day there may be not 'me' in socialism, but it is definitely geared for people who need it, so in the end it helps out the poor more than anything. I'm not saying people don't deserve a chance or don't deserve a fair shake, but at the end of day everyone has the same paths and avenues available to them in order to make something out of themselves.xscrapzx

no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.

People need to get it through their thick skulls and not drink the cool aid that certain politicians have spouted off that every one, one day will become the "successful".. Its mathmatically impossible, and this very rhetoric is harming our system rather then helping it by ignoring the problems we have in our system..

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]

there is no 'me' in socialism. socialism works to improve society as a whole, not individuals within.

nZiFFLe

no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.

I'd actually say wealth alone does not lead to more opportunities. You do need money to make money, but lacking experience, skills, and a professional network in tandem with wealth (or with some sort of leverage/equity) does not lead anywhere, at least significantly.