This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] Too bad society doesn't improve either. There is no improvement in socialism either. Improvement is dependent on 'me'. Without 'me' development stagnates. themajormayor
that's arguable...but i'll admit, history supports that arguement. albeit, there has never really been a true socialist state.
No of course not since it's practically impossible.in a modern context? yeah, i'll agree.
the only type of "socialism" that could help our people is to put caps on available profit from any sale/trade. there would have to be a predetermined ratio of cost to profit that would keep quality of merchandise up and availablity to the people at a managable rate. companies couldn't make more money from using lower quality goods or from paying their employees too little.
Now I do see some of your argument, but what does it matter what a CEO makes? Who is paying the CEO exactly? The Board of Directors do. I'm so tired of people complaining what CEO makes, if the company can afford to pay a CEO, who is an employee just like anyone else is, for his duties there is nothing wrong with that or should that be seen as a negative. Believe it or not but a CEO has more stress on them then anyone in the company, so to think that they just sit there and do nothing an collect a check is completely false. A CEO or a business owner can make all that they want and I don't care if it is billions more than I or anyone for that matter. They worked their way up to get there and they deserve it. The only time I would be against it is unless they did it illegally.[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Well this is a given, the wage descripency is disgusting compared to the rest of the west.. I don't think any one here would say we should all be paid equally, that is just not realistic nor possible.. But at the same time we should not some how accept the kind of wealth gap that there is in the US compared to the rest of the west.. The average European CEO gets paid some 40 to 50 times more then their average worker.. The US difference is 3 to 4 times that descrepency of the rest of West.. Clearly something is wrong here when statistically US workers are not only getting less vacation days, are not as healthy, but they are not getting paid any where close to their European counterparts.... When it comes to taxes we need tax reform and a increase in capital gains tax.. We need to close loop holes.. Because as it stands the rich and corporations pay no where near the supposed % they are suppose to pay.. Due to loopholes.. In the end of the day, I am pretty certain no one wants to see other people struggling.. Nor do people want to see the destruction of a class, such as the rich.. But at this time the burden of the economy has literally fallen on the middle and lower class.. While the upper class literally have gotten geometrically richer and literally have provided nothing new to the economy on top of that.. Take look at General Electric.. The US not only taxed them 0% last period, but the US gave them subsidies.. What did they do in return? they cut jobs in the US.. Our system needs to be based upon results not expectations that never happen.. xscrapzx
Also there is a reason why that GE didn't get taxed and that is because there is not here in the U.S. for it to get taxed. Secondly rich pay taxes to, you may think not enough, but someone making 5 million a year, pays about 2 million in taxes. If you think they need to pay more, then cleary there is something wrong with the government.
.... My point went completely ove ryour head.. A) No where did I say CEO's are to blame, I am pointing out that the wealth descrpency is getting worse and it is in fact HARMING our society as a whole.. Furthermore please do not tell me what you think a CEO deserves or doesn't deserve.. This has absolutely nothing to do with my point, its immaterial..
B) Furthermore no they don't our capital gains taxes being so low and the numerous loop holes, the extremely rich and businesses do not pay the actual % of taxes.. They pay far less.. We need a tax reform plain and simple.. Lower the overall taxes but get rid of loop holes and other such thing.. Its hilarious how people some how trump up Reagan as a savior when he would not be able to win the insanity tha tis the REpublican party that is now.. He raised taxes numerous time.. People need to get it through their thick skulls that our tax system is a mess..
C) Please don't come here and tell me who deserves and who doesn't deserve.. This is immaterial and it pretty much illustrates that you don't care about the problem what so ever.. This is about making a stable society in which we have a certain standard of living that every one can enjoy.. The system is endanger of collapsing in which our minimum standards are getting worse.. You seem not to understand that this "hardworking" CEO like every one else has depended off one another to make their fortunes, has depended off government regulation and protection to keep their fortunes.. This is about fixing our society.. Not trying to figure out who deserves something and who doesn't.. This is about having a minimum standard that, this supposed success of CEO's and other such things are is in fact ENDANGERING that system..
D) Finally please don't talk out of your ass, a simple google search will go over the whole GE fiasco, which large portions of it are within the US.. The US in fact gave them subsidies in the billions.. IN return GE cut jobs in the US.. In the end of the day subsidies, tax breaks etc etc.. Should not be based off baseless expectations of a hoping a compnay to do what its suppose to do.. Our government needs to make it specifically based upon RESULTS, meaning that GE could only ever get those breaks and/or subsidies if they in fact grew with in the US.
That would be rediculous. A cap on how much you can make? Ya that would not put the economy to a halt.the only type of "socialism" that could help our people is to put caps on available profit from any sale/trade. there would have to be a predetermined ratio of cost to profit that would keep quality of merchandise up and availablity to the people at a managable rate. companies couldn't make more money from using lower quality goods or from paying their employees too little.
elessarGObonzo
[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]
[QUOTE="xscrapzx"] Well at the end of the day there may be not 'me' in socialism, but it is definitely geared for people who need it, so in the end it helps out the poor more than anything. I'm not saying people don't deserve a chance or don't deserve a fair shake, but at the end of day everyone has the same paths and avenues available to them in order to make something out of themselves.jetpower3
no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.
I'd actually say wealth alone does not lead to more opportunities. You do need money to make money, but lacking experience, skills, and a professional network in tandem with wealth (or with some sort of leverage/equity) does not lead anywhere, at least significantly.
you're right. other factors, like race, social standing, demography etc. also influence the amount of oppurtunities in one's life.
i still think wealth is the most influential factor, though.
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]
no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.
xscrapzx
People need to get it through their thick skulls and not drink the cool aid that certain politicians have spouted off that every one, one day will become the "successful".. Its mathmatically impossible, and this very rhetoric is harming our system rather then helping it by ignoring the problems we have in our system..
No kidding not everyone can be a CEO or own a company, not because of who you know or because your not wealthy, but its basic economics. Yes it may be cliche of a statement, but at the end of the day no one is being denied an education to succeed in the States. If I can go to school and pay my way and struggle doing it so can everyone else.Your point is hilarious, you seem not to understand that not all things are equal that a kid forced to run a marathon with a sprained ankle will have far less chance of completing it then a person that is 100% healthy and trained for it.. The same can be said for careers in general, the kid born in a poor family ghetto in which they go to a rotting public schools with lacking funds will have a far less chance of succeeding then a person born into a multi million dollar trust fund and continue attend ivy league schools since their birth.. Success takes more then just hardwork, you can improve your oddswith it but you cannot guarentee it.. Until you can understand the reality of this there is no point in even discussing this any further with you.
[QUOTE="xscrapzx"] No kidding not everyone can be a CEO or own a company, not because of who you know or because your not wealthy, but its basic economics. Yes it may be cliche of a statement, but at the end of the day no one is being denied an education to succeed in the States. If I can go to school and pay my way and struggle doing it so can everyone else.EntropyWinsSo if everyone in America went to college and got masters degrees and doctorates, then everyone would be well off, right? Oh wait, capitalism requires that a large percentage of the population be cheap labor for the upper class. Everyone cannot be successful, it is a vital rule of capitalism.
The only thing I want to see is that the people deemed "unsuccessful" are able to make wages to support themselves and their family.. I for instance have no interest of getting into a career that leads me to making 6 figures, I would rather go into teaching in public schools.. But at the same time I would like to know that people like me are able to live a stable life in which they do not struggle... In the end of the day thats really any one wants, is not to struggle financially.
[QUOTE="jetpower3"]
[QUOTE="nZiFFLe"]
no way. wealth=more oppurtunities.
nZiFFLe
I'd actually say wealth alone does not lead to more opportunities. You do need money to make money, but lacking experience, skills, and a professional network in tandem with wealth (or with some sort of leverage/equity) does not lead anywhere, at least significantly.
you're right. other factors, like race, social standing, demography etc. also influence the amount of oppurtunities in one's life.
i still think wealth is the most influential factor, though.
I once read an article on wsj.com that implied that 3 unifying factors for self-made wealth were high risk/beta asset investment (or speculation if you want to be technical), concentration, and leverage. Much of that can only come from wealth (whether it be your own or someone else's). I suppose you're right.
[QUOTE="elessarGObonzo"]the only type of "socialism" that could help our people is to put caps on available profit from any sale/trade. there would have to be a predetermined ratio of cost to profit that would keep quality of merchandise up and availablity to the people at a managable rate. companies couldn't make more money from using lower quality goods or from paying their employees too little.That would be rediculous. A cap on how much you can make? Ya that would not put the economy to a halt.no it wouldn't. you make a good product at a profit, people buy it and use the product.xscrapzx
what halts is the CEOs deciding they want more money so the company charges more, pays employees less, and/or uses cheaper lower quality goods.
Keeping taxes low in a mixed economy is stupid.Look, I'm going to be level with you for a second: I already know that you're assuming I'm a commie for trying to explain socialism in a way that doesn't conclude that it leads to an Orwellian government, but for the love of all that's holy, do you really think that low taxes are the solution to social ills in every single case? Do you consider social effects? Do you know what a social trend is? Do you look beyond your own bank account when you're talking about economic systems? You seem to be saying "taxes are bad and higher taxes means less money for me because taxes don't do anything." On that note, do you know what taxes do except for taking a small bit out of your paycheck?
Do you know what a government is?
These are all valid questions, considering your singlemindedness on this and, quite frankly, every other topic I've seen you comment on. I'm having a hard time thinking a policeman, who is involved in community functions, can be so disconnected with the concept of community that he thinks that taxes only make you have less money and don't give you a single goddamn benefit whatsoever.
I've been answering your questions for this whole thread, so I think it's time for you to answer some of mine. If you're not willing to answer here, then please just PM me some answers.THE_DRUGGIE
I'm not grasping the concept of keeping taxes low as being stupid. Money that I earn going into my bank account = good. Expenses that don't give me pleasure = not so good. Expenses that do give me pleasure = slightly better. This is what happens when my taxes are low and prices are reasonable. I can afford to do more of the things I want.
No, of course not. I haven't said anything of the kind. And no, I don't look beyond my own bank account in terms of the economy. None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise. The only things that matter to me are protecting the people I care about both physically and financially. I don't know how it is for you, but where I live, I don't see my tax dollars being used wisely. I see a stadium being built when stadiums have traditionally failed when funded by the taxpayer. I see roads in such a state of disrepair that I'm scared the tires of my god damn Subaru are going to blow out every time I'm driving. And taxes are ALREADY ridiculously high. My county has the third highest property taxes in the STATE, my town has the highest sales tax, and gas up the road from where I live is 4.29 a gallon cash. WHERE THE FVCK IS MY TAX MONEY GOING THAT YOU NEED MORE OF IT?
As for my community, I work damn hard to make sure the people who live here are safe. Outside of my job, my interest ends at the catholic school where I volunteer for the youth corps.
I simply don't see where higher taxes benefit me. I'm paying for what a level of service I SHOULD be getting, not what I actually am.
[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]If you are going to try and make a point, I'd prefer you just did it, because I don't like answering dumb questions to find out what it is.Still waiting...
EntropyWins
I can't make my point until you answer the question.
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]Keeping taxes low in a mixed economy is stupid.
Look, I'm going to be level with you for a second: I already know that you're assuming I'm a commie for trying to explain socialism in a way that doesn't conclude that it leads to an Orwellian government, but for the love of all that's holy, do you really think that low taxes are the solution to social ills in every single case? Do you consider social effects? Do you know what a social trend is? Do you look beyond your own bank account when you're talking about economic systems? You seem to be saying "taxes are bad and higher taxes means less money for me because taxes don't do anything." On that note, do you know what taxes do except for taking a small bit out of your paycheck?
Do you know what a government is?
These are all valid questions, considering your singlemindedness on this and, quite frankly, every other topic I've seen you comment on. I'm having a hard time thinking a policeman, who is involved in community functions, can be so disconnected with the concept of community that he thinks that taxes only make you have less money and don't give you a single goddamn benefit whatsoever.
I've been answering your questions for this whole thread, so I think it's time for you to answer some of mine. If you're not willing to answer here, then please just PM me some answers.airshocker
I'm not grasping the concept of keeping taxes low as being stupid. Money that I earn going into my bank account = good. Expenses that don't give me pleasure = not so good. Expenses that do give me pleasure = slightly better. This is what happens when my taxes are low and prices are reasonable. I can afford to do more of the things I want.
No, of course not. I haven't said anything of the kind. And no, I don't look beyond my own bank account in terms of the economy. None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise. The only things that matter to me are protecting the people I care about both physically and financially. I don't know how it is for you, but where I live, I don't see my tax dollars being used wisely. I see a stadium being built when stadiums have traditionally failed when funded by the taxpayer. I see roads in such a state of disrepair that I'm scared the tires of my god damn Subaru are going to blow out every time I'm driving. And taxes are ALREADY ridiculously high. My county has the third highest property taxes in the STATE, my town has the highest sales tax, and gas up the road from where I live is 4.29 a gallon cash. WHERE THE FVCK IS MY TAX MONEY GOING THAT YOU NEED MORE OF IT?
As for my community, I work damn hard to make sure the people who live here are safe. Outside of my job, my interest ends at the catholic school where I volunteer for the youth corps.
I simply don't see where higher taxes benefit me. I'm paying for what a level of service I SHOULD be getting, not what I actually am.
Bingo. This is my main problem with taxes. I am not against them inherently. It's just that government seems totally incompetent at putting that money to good use. Socialism is nice in theory. Maybe it can make society better as a whole AND improve the lives of the individual. Unfortunately that only seems to work on paper.I'm not grasping the concept of keeping taxes low as being stupid. Money that I earn going into my bank account = good. Expenses that don't give me pleasure = not so good. Expenses that do give me pleasure = slightly better. This is what happens when my taxes are low and prices are reasonable. I can afford to do more of the things I want.another christian fool living by euro-christian idealsNo, of course not. I haven't said anything of the kind. And no, I don't look beyond my own bank account in terms of the economy. None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise. The only things that matter to me are protecting the people I care about both physically and financially. I don't know how it is for you, but where I live, I don't see my tax dollars being used wisely. I see a stadium being built when stadiums have traditionally failed when funded by the taxpayer. I see roads in such a state of disrepair that I'm scared the tires of my god damn Subaru are going to blow out every time I'm driving. And taxes are ALREADY ridiculously high. My county has the third highest property taxes in the STATE, my town has the highest sales tax, and gas up the road from where I live is 4.29 a gallon cash. WHERE THE FVCK IS MY TAX MONEY GOING THAT YOU NEED MORE OF IT?
As for my community, I work damn hard to make sure the people who live here are safe. Outside of my job, my interest ends at the catholic school where I volunteer for the youth corps.
I simply don't see where higher taxes benefit me. I'm paying for what a level of service I SHOULD be getting, not what I actually am.airshocker
[QUOTE="airshocker"][QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]Keeping taxes low in a mixed economy is stupid.
Look, I'm going to be level with you for a second: I already know that you're assuming I'm a commie for trying to explain socialism in a way that doesn't conclude that it leads to an Orwellian government, but for the love of all that's holy, do you really think that low taxes are the solution to social ills in every single case? Do you consider social effects? Do you know what a social trend is? Do you look beyond your own bank account when you're talking about economic systems? You seem to be saying "taxes are bad and higher taxes means less money for me because taxes don't do anything." On that note, do you know what taxes do except for taking a small bit out of your paycheck?
Do you know what a government is?
These are all valid questions, considering your singlemindedness on this and, quite frankly, every other topic I've seen you comment on. I'm having a hard time thinking a policeman, who is involved in community functions, can be so disconnected with the concept of community that he thinks that taxes only make you have less money and don't give you a single goddamn benefit whatsoever.
I've been answering your questions for this whole thread, so I think it's time for you to answer some of mine. If you're not willing to answer here, then please just PM me some answers.Crunchy_Nuts
I'm not grasping the concept of keeping taxes low as being stupid. Money that I earn going into my bank account = good. Expenses that don't give me pleasure = not so good. Expenses that do give me pleasure = slightly better. This is what happens when my taxes are low and prices are reasonable. I can afford to do more of the things I want.
No, of course not. I haven't said anything of the kind. And no, I don't look beyond my own bank account in terms of the economy. None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise. The only things that matter to me are protecting the people I care about both physically and financially. I don't know how it is for you, but where I live, I don't see my tax dollars being used wisely. I see a stadium being built when stadiums have traditionally failed when funded by the taxpayer. I see roads in such a state of disrepair that I'm scared the tires of my god damn Subaru are going to blow out every time I'm driving. And taxes are ALREADY ridiculously high. My county has the third highest property taxes in the STATE, my town has the highest sales tax, and gas up the road from where I live is 4.29 a gallon cash. WHERE THE FVCK IS MY TAX MONEY GOING THAT YOU NEED MORE OF IT?
As for my community, I work damn hard to make sure the people who live here are safe. Outside of my job, my interest ends at the catholic school where I volunteer for the youth corps.
I simply don't see where higher taxes benefit me. I'm paying for what a level of service I SHOULD be getting, not what I actually am.
Bingo. This is my main problem with taxes. I am not against them inherently. It's just that government seems totally incompetent at putting that money to good use. Socialism is nice in theory. Maybe it can make society better as a whole AND improve the lives of the individual. Unfortunately that only seems to work on paper. And in Scandinavia.
None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise.
airshocker
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
another christian fool living by euro-christian ideals
elessarGObonzo
I'm not christian, stupid. I'm an agnostic. Just because I volunteer at a catholic school doesn't make me catholic. I'm simply not going to go to the YMCA in Nyack and risk getting shot on a daily basis.
[QUOTE="airshocker"]
None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise.
THE_DRUGGIE
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
Specially if he is a policeman. Scary to think such people are law enforcers.[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]Keeping taxes low in a mixed economy is stupid.
Look, I'm going to be level with you for a second: I already know that you're assuming I'm a commie for trying to explain socialism in a way that doesn't conclude that it leads to an Orwellian government, but for the love of all that's holy, do you really think that low taxes are the solution to social ills in every single case? Do you consider social effects? Do you know what a social trend is? Do you look beyond your own bank account when you're talking about economic systems? You seem to be saying "taxes are bad and higher taxes means less money for me because taxes don't do anything." On that note, do you know what taxes do except for taking a small bit out of your paycheck?
Do you know what a government is?
These are all valid questions, considering your singlemindedness on this and, quite frankly, every other topic I've seen you comment on. I'm having a hard time thinking a policeman, who is involved in community functions, can be so disconnected with the concept of community that he thinks that taxes only make you have less money and don't give you a single goddamn benefit whatsoever.
I've been answering your questions for this whole thread, so I think it's time for you to answer some of mine. If you're not willing to answer here, then please just PM me some answers.airshocker
I'm not grasping the concept of keeping taxes low as being stupid. Money that I earn going into my bank account = good. Expenses that don't give me pleasure = not so good. Expenses that do give me pleasure = slightly better. This is what happens when my taxes are low and prices are reasonable. I can afford to do more of the things I want.
No, of course not. I haven't said anything of the kind. And no, I don't look beyond my own bank account in terms of the economy. None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise. The only things that matter to me are protecting the people I care about both physically and financially. I don't know how it is for you, but where I live, I don't see my tax dollars being used wisely. I see a stadium being built when stadiums have traditionally failed when funded by the taxpayer. I see roads in such a state of disrepair that I'm scared the tires of my god damn Subaru are going to blow out every time I'm driving. And taxes are ALREADY ridiculously high. My county has the third highest property taxes in the STATE, my town has the highest sales tax, and gas up the road from where I live is 4.29 a gallon cash. WHERE THE FVCK IS MY TAX MONEY GOING THAT YOU NEED MORE OF IT?
As for my community, I work damn hard to make sure the people who live here are safe. Outside of my job, my interest ends at the catholic school where I volunteer for the youth corps.
I simply don't see where higher taxes benefit me. I'm paying for what a level of service I SHOULD be getting, not what I actually am.
sounds like the fault lies on your local government for not using taxpayers' money effectively, not on the concept of high taxes in a mixed economy.
[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"][QUOTE="airshocker"]Bingo. This is my main problem with taxes. I am not against them inherently. It's just that government seems totally incompetent at putting that money to good use. Socialism is nice in theory. Maybe it can make society better as a whole AND improve the lives of the individual. Unfortunately that only seems to work on paper. And in Scandinavia. Except Scandinavia is capitalist. So now we know that according to you capitalism makes society better and improve the lives of the individual. And it works IN PRACTICE.I'm not grasping the concept of keeping taxes low as being stupid. Money that I earn going into my bank account = good. Expenses that don't give me pleasure = not so good. Expenses that do give me pleasure = slightly better. This is what happens when my taxes are low and prices are reasonable. I can afford to do more of the things I want.
No, of course not. I haven't said anything of the kind. And no, I don't look beyond my own bank account in terms of the economy. None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise. The only things that matter to me are protecting the people I care about both physically and financially. I don't know how it is for you, but where I live, I don't see my tax dollars being used wisely. I see a stadium being built when stadiums have traditionally failed when funded by the taxpayer. I see roads in such a state of disrepair that I'm scared the tires of my god damn Subaru are going to blow out every time I'm driving. And taxes are ALREADY ridiculously high. My county has the third highest property taxes in the STATE, my town has the highest sales tax, and gas up the road from where I live is 4.29 a gallon cash. WHERE THE FVCK IS MY TAX MONEY GOING THAT YOU NEED MORE OF IT?
As for my community, I work damn hard to make sure the people who live here are safe. Outside of my job, my interest ends at the catholic school where I volunteer for the youth corps.
I simply don't see where higher taxes benefit me. I'm paying for what a level of service I SHOULD be getting, not what I actually am.
kuraimen
[QUOTE="elessarGObonzo"]
another christian fool living by euro-christian ideals
airshocker
I'm not christian, stupid. I'm an agnostic. Just because I volunteer at a catholic school doesn't make me catholic. I'm simply not going to go to the YMCA in Byack and risk getting shot on a daily basis.
sorry. okay, you're not christian. doesn't change your mind state.[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"][QUOTE="airshocker"]
None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise.
kuraimen
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
Specially if he is a policeman. Scary to think such people are law enforcers.It actually does concern me, now that you bring that up.
I can only hope he has a desk job, because he might try to beat someone up on his patrol time for no reason to let off some steam.
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
THE_DRUGGIE
Everyone feels that way, Everyone is self interested to some extent or another. I'm just not afraid to be honest about it.
I don't need to empathize with anybody anymore than I already do.
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"][QUOTE="airshocker"]
None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise.
kuraimen
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
Specially if he is a policeman. Scary to think such people are law enforcers.that's the capitalist mentality for you...:P
And in Scandinavia. Except Scandinavia is capitalist. So now we know that according to you capitalism makes society better and improve the lives of the individual. And it works IN PRACTICE. Mixed economy. Refer to the last post I made where I explain what socialism actually means. Socialism is not USSR communist dictatorships like you try to imply.[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"] Bingo. This is my main problem with taxes. I am not against them inherently. It's just that government seems totally incompetent at putting that money to good use. Socialism is nice in theory. Maybe it can make society better as a whole AND improve the lives of the individual. Unfortunately that only seems to work on paper.themajormayor
[QUOTE="airshocker"]
None of you people MATTER to me. I couldn't care less if you dropped dead a second after reading my post. Every single one of you feel the exact same way about me, so don't even pretend to feel otherwise.
THE_DRUGGIE
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
Am sad.Specially if he is a policeman. Scary to think such people are law enforcers.kuraimen
Yet I perform the duties of my job as if I did give a fvck. Not seeing what the problem is. -Shrug-
"i beleive everybody that's got more money than they can hold in both hands ought to give it all to me"
It actually does concern me, now that you bring that up.
I can only hope he has a desk job, because he might try to beat someone up on his patrol time for no reason to let off some steam.
THE_DRUGGIE
Oh I don't have a desk job, I can assure you. I'm on patrol for three out of my four days of work.
I may try and beat someone up to let off some steam? Please. Shooting people is much easier. :roll:
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
airshocker
Everyone feels that way, Everyone is self interested to some extent or another. I'm just not afraid to be honest about it.
I don't need to empathize with anybody anymore than I already do.
Erm, I just said I didn't. I wouldn't be so cold toward people that I wouldn't care if they dropped dead.
It sounds like a very troubling mindset, not to mention it would seem like this is the kind of mentality that leads to people bleeding out in the street while people step over them.
I hope you can see people in a more considerate light sometime in the future.
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
airshocker
Everyone feels that way, Everyone is self interested to some extent or another. I'm just not afraid to be honest about it.
I don't need to empathize with anybody anymore than I already do.
One thing is personally empathizing with each person individually and another is to understand that people are human beings and that a society where people are better off is better for myself. You don't live in a glass bubble FYI. No one is asking for you to care for other people as much as you care for your family but it is difficult to have no empathy whatsoever, that's like a serial killer mentality.What is "struggling" seems subjective and can differ across many societies, though. A common tactic conservatives in America use is to point out that the poor in America are better off than the poor in third world countries, so they should just shut up and take t up the @ss like they are supposed to. Meanwhile the rich just keep getting extravagantly richer while the poor are getting poorer. Where is the line about people being able to support themselves? Should a person willing to work a full time job be able to afford things like a house and entertainment. If you wanted to save and take a vacation to france, should you be able to? Should a factory worker or even a fast food worker be able to? Or should hard working people be satisfied with getting food and a studio apt while others own multiple yachts and houses all over the world?The only thing I want to see is that the people deemed "unsuccessful" are able to make wages to support themselves and their family.. I for instance have no interest of getting into a career that leads me to making 6 figures, I would rather go into teaching in public schools.. But at the same time I would like to know that people like me are able to live a stable life in which they do not struggle... In the end of the day thats really any one wants, is not to struggle financially.
sSubZerOo
I think these questions can only be answered in the context of how much wealth a particular society has, which is why the income gap is a good statistic.
Now I do see some of your argument, but what does it matter what a CEO makes? Who is paying the CEO exactly? The Board of Directors do. I'm so tired of people complaining what CEO makes, if the company can afford to pay a CEO, who is an employee just like anyone else is, for his duties there is nothing wrong with that or should that be seen as a negative. Believe it or not but a CEO has more stress on them then anyone in the company, so to think that they just sit there and do nothing an collect a check is completely false. A CEO or a business owner can make all that they want and I don't care if it is billions more than I or anyone for that matter. They worked their way up to get there and they deserve it. The only time I would be against it is unless they did it illegally.[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Well this is a given, the wage descripency is disgusting compared to the rest of the west.. I don't think any one here would say we should all be paid equally, that is just not realistic nor possible.. But at the same time we should not some how accept the kind of wealth gap that there is in the US compared to the rest of the west.. The average European CEO gets paid some 40 to 50 times more then their average worker.. The US difference is 3 to 4 times that descrepency of the rest of West.. Clearly something is wrong here when statistically US workers are not only getting less vacation days, are not as healthy, but they are not getting paid any where close to their European counterparts.... When it comes to taxes we need tax reform and a increase in capital gains tax.. We need to close loop holes.. Because as it stands the rich and corporations pay no where near the supposed % they are suppose to pay.. Due to loopholes.. In the end of the day, I am pretty certain no one wants to see other people struggling.. Nor do people want to see the destruction of a class, such as the rich.. But at this time the burden of the economy has literally fallen on the middle and lower class.. While the upper class literally have gotten geometrically richer and literally have provided nothing new to the economy on top of that.. Take look at General Electric.. The US not only taxed them 0% last period, but the US gave them subsidies.. What did they do in return? they cut jobs in the US.. Our system needs to be based upon results not expectations that never happen.. sSubZerOo
Also there is a reason why that GE didn't get taxed and that is because there is not here in the U.S. for it to get taxed. Secondly rich pay taxes to, you may think not enough, but someone making 5 million a year, pays about 2 million in taxes. If you think they need to pay more, then cleary there is something wrong with the government.
.... My point went completely ove ryour head.. A) No where did I say CEO's are to blame, I am pointing out that the wealth descrpency is getting worse and it is in fact HARMING our society as a whole.. Furthermore please do not tell me what you think a CEO deserves or doesn't deserve.. This has absolutely nothing to do with my point, its immaterial..
B) Furthermore no they don't our capital gains taxes being so low and the numerous loop holes, the extremely rich and businesses do not pay the actual % of taxes.. They pay far less.. We need a tax reform plain and simple.. Lower the overall taxes but get rid of loop holes and other such thing.. Its hilarious how people some how trump up Reagan as a savior when he would not be able to win the insanity tha tis the REpublican party that is now.. He raised taxes numerous time.. People need to get it through their thick skulls that our tax system is a mess..
C) Please don't come here and tell me who deserves and who doesn't deserve.. This is immaterial and it pretty much illustrates that you don't care about the problem what so ever.. This is about making a stable society in which we have a certain standard of living that every one can enjoy.. The system is endanger of collapsing in which our minimum standards are getting worse.. You seem not to understand that this "hardworking" CEO like every one else has depended off one another to make their fortunes, has depended off government regulation and protection to keep their fortunes.. This is about fixing our society.. Not trying to figure out who deserves something and who doesn't.. This is about having a minimum standard that, this supposed success of CEO's and other such things are is in fact ENDANGERING that system..
D) Finally please don't talk out of your ass, a simple google search will go over the whole GE fiasco, which large portions of it are within the US.. The US in fact gave them subsidies in the billions.. IN return GE cut jobs in the US.. In the end of the day subsidies, tax breaks etc etc.. Should not be based off baseless expectations of a hoping a compnay to do what its suppose to do.. Our government needs to make it specifically based upon RESULTS, meaning that GE could only ever get those breaks and/or subsidies if they in fact grew with in the US.
Why do the rich pay far less percentages in taxes? Because they make a boat load of money thats why. They pay more taxes in a year than me or you will probably make in the next 20 years, same goes for companies. I'm so tired of people sitting here and stating that they don't pay the same percentage, the percentage doesn't matter. Look at the figures they are paying and come back and talk to me. So you mean to tell me that GE did not pay one percentage of tax? Not even a payroll tax, you do realize that has to be the most outragious thing I have ever heard in my life. GE like any other company has cut jobs in the U.S, they aren't the only ones, also if you have losses you don't pay corporate federal income taxes which is what you are referring to. Do you not at the end of their year claim all that you can on your taxes to get a larger refund, because if you do you are a hyprocrite. GE is doing the same thing and what they are doing is not illegal. Do I think that loopholes need to be looked at? Of course, do I think that taxes should be looked as well, yes, but to sit here and say all this garbage is rediculous. Get off the GAP myth, we have now been talking about this for the past 5 years and yet the middle class is still here.Also does GE not make technologies for green energy? Is there not tax break for companies that do so?
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]
It actually does concern me, now that you bring that up.
I can only hope he has a desk job, because he might try to beat someone up on his patrol time for no reason to let off some steam.
airshocker
Oh I don't have a desk job, I can assure you. I'm on patrol for three out of my four days of work.
I may try and beat someone up to let off some steam? Please. Shooting people is much easier. :roll:
Joking aside, you should see people as part of a community rather than things that are just around.
A little empathy can bring light to your life.
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]
I don't feel that way, honestly.
You need to learn to empathize with people more.
airshocker
Everyone feels that way, Everyone is self interested to some extent or another. I'm just not afraid to be honest about it.
I don't need to empathize with anybody anymore than I already do.
you're wrong. and there's something wrong with you emotionally.Erm, I just said I didn't. I wouldn't be so cold toward people that I wouldn't care if they dropped dead.
It sounds like a very troubling mindset, not to mention it would seem like this is the kind of mentality that leads to people bleeding out in the street while people step over them.
I hope you can see people in a more considerate light sometime in the future.
THE_DRUGGIE
And I think you're full of sh*t.
I wouldn't let someone die if I could prevent it
When people deserve to be see in a more considerate light, maybe I will.
huge wealth gaps are bad for the economony... which is why every economist in the world says america currently has a demand shortage.
Taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor is actually the smartest and most american plan out there... as its the most effective in terms of GDP growth. Anyone that disagrees hates america.
[QUOTE="themajormayor"]Except Scandinavia is capitalist. So now we know that according to you capitalism makes society better and improve the lives of the individual. And it works IN PRACTICE. Mixed economy. Refer to the last post I made where I explain what socialism actually means. Socialism is not USSR communist dictatorships like you try to imply.[QUOTE="kuraimen"] And in Scandinavia.kuraimen
You don't live here. They're capitalist countries with very free economies. Means of production are PRIVATELY owned. Also mixed exonomy=/=socialism. So no Socialism doesn't work here, cause they're not socialist countries. Hell my country has been ruled for the last 20 years by CONSERVATIVES. As in actually alligned with republicans!
Well this is a given, the wage descripency is disgusting compared to the rest of the west.. I don't think any one here would say we should all be paid equally, that is just not realistic nor possible.. But at the same time we should not some how accept the kind of wealth gap that there is in the US compared to the rest of the west.. The average European CEO gets paid some 40 to 50 times more then their average worker.. The US difference is 3 to 4 times that descrepency of the rest of West.. Clearly something is wrong here when statistically US workers are not only getting less vacation days, are not as healthy, but they are not getting paid any where close to their European counterparts.... When it comes to taxes we need tax reform and a increase in capital gains tax.. We need to close loop holes.. Because as it stands the rich and corporations pay no where near the supposed % they are suppose to pay.. Due to loopholes.. In the end of the day, I am pretty certain no one wants to see other people struggling.. Nor do people want to see the destruction of a class, such as the rich.. But at this time the burden of the economy has literally fallen on the middle and lower class.. While the upper class literally have gotten geometrically richer and literally have provided nothing new to the economy on top of that.. Take look at General Electric.. The US not only taxed them 0% last period, but the US gave them subsidies.. What did they do in return? they cut jobs in the US.. Our system needs to be based upon results not expectations that never happen.. sSubZerOo
I would just be careful with increasing the capital gains tax too much. If the short-term and long-term rates are close together (i.e. the 30% proposed AMT and with the top ordinary income tax bracket expecting to revert to 39% in 2013), some might see more incentive in just investing or speculating in the shorter term (less than 1 year), which can lead to some pretty unintended consequences (maybe some new exotic derivatives that no one really understands all over again). Just some food for thought.
Still waiting EntropyWins...
[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]
Erm, I just said I didn't. I wouldn't be so cold toward people that I wouldn't care if they dropped dead.
It sounds like a very troubling mindset, not to mention it would seem like this is the kind of mentality that leads to people bleeding out in the street while people step over them.
I hope you can see people in a more considerate light sometime in the future.
airshocker
And I think you're full of sh*t.
I wouldn't let someone die if I could prevent it
When people deserve to be see in a more considerate light, maybe I will.
But the world will not change on your terms, you have to change the way you see the world.
It's troubling to say that you think nobody deserves enough empathy to even elicit an emotional reaction from you when they die.
One thing is personally empathizing with each person individually and another is to understand that people are human beings and that a society where people are better off is better for myself. You don't live in a glass bubble FYI. No one is asking for you to care for other people as much as you care for your family but it is difficult to have no empathy whatsoever, that's like a serial killer mentality. kuraimen
I don't have no empathy what so ever. I wouldn't let somebody bleed out on the side of the road, for instance. I care insofar as it doesn't affect my wellbeing.
Mixed economy. Refer to the last post I made where I explain what socialism actually means. Socialism is not USSR communist dictatorships like you try to imply.[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="themajormayor"] Except Scandinavia is capitalist. So now we know that according to you capitalism makes society better and improve the lives of the individual. And it works IN PRACTICE.
themajormayor
You don't live here. They're capitalist countries with very free economies. Means of production are PRIVATELY owned. Also mixed exonomy=/=socialism. So no Socialism doesn't work here, cause they're not socialist countries. Hell my country has been ruled for the last 20 years by CONSERVATIVES. As in actually alligned with republicans!
And you don't understand what socialism means. I don't have to live there to understand that. But you have to read about socialism to understand what it means. I'm not saying they are socialist countries I'm saying they are mixed economies with a lot of their makeup comes from socialist ideals. No matter how much you deny that that's a fact.you're wrong. and there's something wrong with you emotionally.
elessarGObonzo
My last psych eval. seems to suggest otherwise, else I wouldn't have a gun.
[QUOTE="kuraimen"]One thing is personally empathizing with each person individually and another is to understand that people are human beings and that a society where people are better off is better for myself. You don't live in a glass bubble FYI. No one is asking for you to care for other people as much as you care for your family but it is difficult to have no empathy whatsoever, that's like a serial killer mentality. airshocker
I don't have no empathy what so ever. I wouldn't let somebody bleed out on the side of the road, for instance. I care insofar as it doesn't affect my wellbeing.
Nice to know that a police officer wouldn't put himself in harm's way to help others.
[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] Mixed economy. Refer to the last post I made where I explain what socialism actually means. Socialism is not USSR communist dictatorships like you try to imply.kuraimen
You don't live here. They're capitalist countries with very free economies. Means of production are PRIVATELY owned. Also mixed exonomy=/=socialism. So no Socialism doesn't work here, cause they're not socialist countries. Hell my country has been ruled for the last 20 years by CONSERVATIVES. As in actually alligned with republicans!
And you don't understand what socialism means. I don't have to live there to understand that. But you have to read about socialism to understand what it means. I'm not saying they are socialist countries I'm saying they are mixed economies with a lot of their makeup comes from socialist ideals. No matter how much you deny that that's a fact.I understand very well what it means. If you're saying they're "mixed economies" then they're not socialist countres as you said. You used them as a proof that a socialist economy would work but now you're calling them mixed exonomies, make up your mind cause according to your logic every country is "mixed". Yup I'm sure they share some ideals just as they share ideals with Facism too. It's very hard to find a country so extreme it doesn't share any ideals with noone else.
[QUOTE="airshocker"]
[QUOTE="kuraimen"]One thing is personally empathizing with each person individually and another is to understand that people are human beings and that a society where people are better off is better for myself. You don't live in a glass bubble FYI. No one is asking for you to care for other people as much as you care for your family but it is difficult to have no empathy whatsoever, that's like a serial killer mentality. THE_DRUGGIE
I don't have no empathy what so ever. I wouldn't let somebody bleed out on the side of the road, for instance. I care insofar as it doesn't affect my wellbeing.
Nice to know that a police officer wouldn't put himself in harm's way to help others.
airshocker is a cop? thats scary.
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