Hugo Chavez is Dead

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coolbeans90

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#401 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

@kuraimen

It's one thing to carry out policies intended to help the poor. For all I know, they may have been effective policies (I'm not too familiar with the economic conditions of Venezuela, past and present). It's another to fire thousands of middle class engineers because they do not agree with said policies. In fact, I'd call it outright oppressive.

kuraimen

Nationalizing =/= firing. Where do you get he fired so many people? And if firing people is such a crime then all big companies in the world should be prosecuted since they have fired thousands of people during the economic crisis. Some changes need drastic measures. In this case what Chávez did was crucial to a brighter future for the whole region.

Chavez firing thousands of people was a purely political endeavor and, frankly, despicable. I mean, I'm surprised that you are actually on board with this considering that you like to consider yourself a caring person.

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kuraimen

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#402 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

@kuraimen

It's one thing to carry out policies intended to help the poor. For all I know, they may have been effective policies (I'm not too familiar with the economic conditions of Venezuela, past and present). It's another to fire thousands of middle class engineers because they do not agree with said policies. In fact, I'd call it outright oppressive.

coolbeans90

Nationalizing =/= firing. Where do you get he fired so many people? And if firing people is such a crime then all big companies in the world should be prosecuted since they have fired thousands of people during the economic crisis. Some changes need drastic measures. In this case what Chávez did was crucial to a brighter future for the whole region.

Chavez firing thousands of people was a purely political endeavor and, frankly, despicable. I mean, I'm surprised that you are actually on board with this considering that you like to consider yourself a caring person.

Again can you show proof of these firings? And if you can, can you find me the reasons for the firings? And while you're at it can you tell me what do you believe will happen to people in the US if the government found out they supported overthrowing the government by force and actually carried it out. Please try to be honest.
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coolbeans90

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#403 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Nationalizing =/= firing. Where do you get he fired so many people? And if firing people is such a crime then all big companies in the world should be prosecuted since they have fired thousands of people during the economic crisis. Some changes need drastic measures. In this case what Chávez did was crucial to a brighter future for the whole region.kuraimen

Chavez firing thousands of people was a purely political endeavor and, frankly, despicable. I mean, I'm surprised that you are actually on board with this considering that you like to consider yourself a caring person.

Again can you show proof of these firings? And if you can, can you find me the reasons for the firings? And while you're at it can you tell me what do you believe will happen to people in the US if the government found out they supported overthrowing the government by force and actually carried it out. .

PDVSA strikes in the early 2000s.

I'm confused by the wording of your question, the U.S. or the Venezuelan government?

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kuraimen

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#404 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Chavez firing thousands of people was a purely political endeavor and, frankly, despicable. I mean, I'm surprised that you are actually on board with this considering that you like to consider yourself a caring person.

coolbeans90

Again can you show proof of these firings? And if you can, can you find me the reasons for the firings? And while you're at it can you tell me what do you believe will happen to people in the US if the government found out they supported overthrowing the government by force and actually carried it out. .

PDVSA strikes in the early 2000s.

I'm confused by the wording of your question, the U.S. or the Venezuelan government?

Ok I looked into PDVSA. There are conflicting reports on the layoffs some sources say the layoffs were massive (20000) others that were not. Some sources say that it was part of restructuring the company to become from private to public sector which makes sense if the government way of doing things was different from what the company has been doing until then. You have to understand that nationalising the oil company was crucial to Chavez' plan to use the national resource to invest it in social reforms. He couldn't put that to work if a bunch of employees were not in tune with the new objectives. That would be like a company like Ford having workers that had different goals than making cars to sell to the public. Now many of those workers also signed support for making a coup against the government. That's a serious threat, for example, much bigger than what Bradley Manning did on the US since they are actually supporting a violent uprising against the government. Don't you think that the US government would have done more than just firing them? they would have probably been accused of treason and executed by now. Either way I don't see anything particularly problematic if the firings were done for those reasons. After all the plan of Chavez was much bigger than some middle class workers he had to see how to diminish the unbearable poverty his country was in. He took a risk and he succeeded in a big part by reducing it considerably. That's hardly what I call a dictatorship, more like a government with a vision and the will to do what it takes to make things better.
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LOXO7

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#405 LOXO7
Member since 2008 • 5595 Posts

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

So what rights do you have through nature?

worlock77

What rights do you have?

I have rights enumerated through law. Now you can say that these are privileges sure, but we use the term "rights" becuase they're held to be inherent to each person and not to be taken away unless one commits some flagrant violation of the law.

So what rights do you have though nature?

How wonderful of you and your democracy have determined what you all think rights are. I have rights to do actions and rights to own properties. All rights derive from doing and owning, including the specified rights against the government, the ones you may be talking about when you say enumerated. 

The Constitution is the law you got that right.  The Bill of Rights does not give you rights.  This means the law does not give you rights.  The Bill of Rights lists rights to remind government, people have rights.

Natural powers > People powers > Government powers > worlock77 powers. 

That's a bad place to put yourself in.

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thebest31406

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#406 thebest31406
Member since 2004 • 3775 Posts

Chavez has done more for the people of his country than anyone (especially Western) could ever dream.  This is not just another pro-Chavez platitude, the proof is in the numbers

Center For Economic and Policy Research: Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs

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lowkey254

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#407 lowkey254
Member since 2004 • 6031 Posts

The world has lost another leader not under control of the almighty dollar. Long Live Hugo Chavez!

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coolbeans90

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#409 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Again can you show proof of these firings? And if you can, can you find me the reasons for the firings? And while you're at it can you tell me what do you believe will happen to people in the US if the government found out they supported overthrowing the government by force and actually carried it out. .kuraimen

PDVSA strikes in the early 2000s.

I'm confused by the wording of your question, the U.S. or the Venezuelan government?

Ok I looked into PDVSA. There are conflicting reports on the layoffs some sources say the layoffs were massive (20000) others that were not. Some sources say that it was part of restructuring the company to become from private to public sector which makes sense if the government way of doing things was different from what the company has been doing until then. You have to understand that nationalising the oil company was crucial to Chavez' plan to use the national resource to invest it in social reforms. He couldn't put that to work if a bunch of employees were not in tune with the new objectives. That would be like a company like Ford having workers that had different goals than making cars to sell to the public. Now many of those workers also signed support for making a coup against the government. That's a serious threat, for example, much bigger than what Bradley Manning did on the US since they are actually supporting a violent uprising against the government. Don't you think that the US government would have done more than just firing them? they would have probably been accused of treason and executed by now. Either way I don't see anything particularly problematic if the firings were done for those reasons. After all the plan of Chavez was much bigger than some middle class workers he had to see how to diminish the unbearable poverty his country was in. He took a risk and he succeeded in a big part by reducing it considerably. That's hardly what I call a dictatorship, more like a government with a vision and the will to do what it takes to make things better.

The firings leave me a with a great amount of skepticism, TBH. Seems a little heavy-handed and authoritarian, bordering on fascist, even if motives weren't ill-intended. I mean, employees in the future had to express support for Chavez. Additionally, how many of those actually signed said petition supporting a coup?

edit: and just because the U.S. might/would do something similar doesn't make it okay.