[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]No, that's not the case at all. Salvation does not require perfection.So I am going to go to hell anyway. That's just wonderful..:|
MAILER_DAEMON
I'm confused...:?
I can see why a lot of people don't want to be Christians...
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Wow, I guess someone here isn't open to people giving their opinions. :roll:
Become an Atheist. Problem solved.
There is no proof of Gods existance.
icy06
No. I do believe in God. I just want to believe that he is more loving than to send someone to hell for not being completely holy.
[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]Exactly. I believe Jesus existed and taught some wonderful things in his lifetime. The central message being unconditional love for all life. Read the gospels yourself. But it is true what was said in the Davinci code, after some meeting over a thousand years ago, he was called a deity. In other words men decided whether he was a god or not hundreds of years after his death. Proof that man created god in his image not the other way around. Suggested reading: Conversations with God by N.D. Walsh; A new Earth by Eckhart Tolle. Read these books that state peace and love and make mention of where it is somewhat evident man has been controlled by organized religion. Being spiritual has no rules to follow but one: love and accept all life. No judging.if your family or church hadnt told you about heaven and hell, would youstill believethey exist?
that fact that the ideals of christianity have to be spread by other people and are not apparent in nature itself is very telling
cainetao11
sorry to burst your bubble but da vinci code is fiction... so siting it as a factual reference is void, now if you could site the same facts from a valid source other than a fictional story ment to entertain the skeptics then maybe your point would be more valid. jesus was prophicied in the old testement, he fufilled all of the scripture regarding the coming of the messiah, all things stated long before he was born... how does that figure into your meeting a thousand years ago. man didnt decide how he would come god did and it was all written down in the Tanakh. how do you explain that?
Theres a flaw in what you said. "Perfect as possible" If there is a god, he knows that the human being, as feeble as it is, will make mistakes and those mistakes will be forgiven as long as you remain faithful. Thats what I get from all that hubbub atleast.Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
DragonRebel0908
[QUOTE="icy06"]
Become an Atheist. Problem solved.
There is no proof of Gods existance.
DragonRebel0908
No. I do believe in God. I just want to believe that he is more loving than to send someone to hell for not being completely holy.
it says there is none that is rightious no not one romans 3:10, for all have sinned and fallen short the glory of god romans 3:23 but we are all as an unclean thing, our rightiousness as filthy rags, isaiah 64:6 the wages of sin is death romans but the gift of god is eternal life through jesus christ our lord6:23 for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever beliveth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. i have never once read anywhere in the bible where it says once you have accepted you have to be holy enough to make it into heaven, that is what people say to keep you in their church so they feel they are in power not god.
[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]Theres a flaw in what you said. "Perfect as possible" If there is a god, he knows that the human being, as feeble as it is, will make mistakes and those mistakes will be forgiven as long as you remain faithful. Thats what I get from all that hubbub atleast.Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
MuddVader
WOW MuddVader, you have learned a lot (being totally serious) sine the last time you asked me questions in a religious forum :D
You have it almost exactly right
sorry to burst your bubble but da vinci code is fiction... so siting it as a factual reference is void, now if you could site the same facts from a valid source other than a fictional story ment to entertain the skeptics then maybe your point would be more valid. jesus was prophicied in the old testement, he fufilled all of the scripture regarding the coming of the messiah, all things stated long before he was born... how does that figure into your meeting a thousand years ago. man didnt decide how he would come god did and it was all written down in the Tanakh. how do you explain that?Twisted-Ice-God
Jesus fulfilled all the scripture? No...
not to ask for too much but is there anything in writing from this source, i really dont want to have to listen to it, try and transcribe it then research it, its easier to read and research plus less likely to be miss understood. ive listened for over 6 min and nothing of any relevance has came up...
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
DragonRebel0908
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
[QUOTE="icy06"]
Become an Atheist. Problem solved.
There is no proof of Gods existance.
DragonRebel0908
No. I do believe in God. I just want to believe that he is more loving than to send someone to hell for not being completely holy.
then believe it
also, why do i smell flamebait?
[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
Stesilaus
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
As an atheist, I find Pat Condell to be quite rude. I mean being blunt and speaking the truth about religion is fine and all but mocking people's beliefs is quite repulsive. He gives atheists a bade name even though I agree with what he says. His videos could use a bit more tact to say the least.
I don't want to be christian because religion is a lie. Also, I don't need it to be content or to know right from wrong.
[QUOTE="Stesilaus"]
[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
Trinners
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
As an atheist, I find Pat Condell to be quite rude. I mean being blunt and speaking the truth about religion is fine and all but mocking people's beliefs is quite repulsive. He gives atheists a bade name even though I agree with what he says. His videos could use a bit more tact to say the least.
If you think he's bad you should watch theAmazingAtheists videos.You were at a Catholic church. There's some 100 different types of Christian. Lutherns (like myself) believe that you get into heaven regardless of what you do because 1. God forgives your sins and 2. you just have to believe.Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
DragonRebel0908
[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
Stesilaus
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
wow that guy is shallow and obviously overlooks all the things that christianity teaches about love, being humble, and everything else and only looks at the law of the old testemant, i wonder if he thinks that government is evil for punishing criminals too... and god doesnt demand he be worshiped, he gave us free will to do with it as we wish, if he demanded it then we wouldnt be having this debate now would we, there would be no free will it would be us praising him and only him. what a bunch of jibberish and nonsenseGod does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences. It's similar to a parent. Parent's 'demand' that their children follow their rules yet their children still have free will. If they don't follow their rules there are consequences.wow that guy is shallow and obviously overlooks all the things that christianity teaches about love, being humble, and everything else and only looks at the law of the old testemant, i wonder if he thinks that government is evil for punishing criminals too... and god doesnt demand he be worshiped, he gave us free will to do with it as we wish, if he demanded it then we wouldnt be having this debate now would we, there would be no free will it would be us praising him and only him. what a bunch of jibberish and nonsense
Twisted-Ice-God
God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences. It's similar to a parent. Parent's 'demand' that their children follow their rules yet their children still have free will. If they don't follow their rules there are consequences.[QUOTE="Twisted-Ice-God"]
wow that guy is shallow and obviously overlooks all the things that christianity teaches about love, being humble, and everything else and only looks at the law of the old testemant, i wonder if he thinks that government is evil for punishing criminals too... and god doesnt demand he be worshiped, he gave us free will to do with it as we wish, if he demanded it then we wouldnt be having this debate now would we, there would be no free will it would be us praising him and only him. what a bunch of jibberish and nonsense
BumFluff122
did god tell you he demands your love, or did you hear that from somebody else?
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
Stesilaus
No offense to Mr. Condell, but his rant lacks a certain perspective that a historical examination of Christianity and Islam would provide. The two religions' histories are actually quite similar, but I would imagine not in the respect that he would expect. In its original incarnation, Christianity preached that God was love andthat all men would be reconciled to God. Then, along came St. Augustine and said "nope, that's heresy, you'll all burn in hell unless you listen to the Church", and down it all came crumbling, men of power having thoroughly gotten their claws into the religion and having twisted it to their own ends. Similarly, in Islam's original incarnation, it lead the world in scientific advancement, welcoming all people with open arms to Baghdad, which at the time was the scientific center of the world. Then, however, a guy named al-Ghazali came along and said "nope, that's heresy and the work of the devil, let's abandon all that and rely on God's word instead". And so plunged Islam into darkness as well, some seven hundred years after the same happened to Christianity.
Those who note that many, many terrible things have come from observance of religion are absolutely correct; they are not correct, however, in concluding anything about the religions themselves as a result. Neither Christianity nor Islam began in the form in which they exist today; they both have gotten to that point only through the hunger for power of humans and the resulting twisting of teachings that result when such humans decide that what they want to be true is more important than what the masses actually found in their religions.
[QUOTE="Stesilaus"]
[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
Twisted-Ice-God
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
wow that guy is shallow and obviously overlooks all the things that christianity teaches about love, being humble, and everything else and only looks at the law of the old testemant, i wonder if he thinks that government is evil for punishing criminals too... and god doesnt demand he be worshiped, he gave us free will to do with it as we wish, if he demanded it then we wouldnt be having this debate now would we, there would be no free will it would be us praising him and only him. what a bunch of jibberish and nonsenseHowever you can't refute the fact that the bible pulled a 180 with regards to god from the OT to the NT.
God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences. It's similar to a parent. Parent's 'demand' that their children follow their rules yet their children still have free will. If they don't follow their rules there are consequences.[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="Twisted-Ice-God"]
wow that guy is shallow and obviously overlooks all the things that christianity teaches about love, being humble, and everything else and only looks at the law of the old testemant, i wonder if he thinks that government is evil for punishing criminals too... and god doesnt demand he be worshiped, he gave us free will to do with it as we wish, if he demanded it then we wouldnt be having this debate now would we, there would be no free will it would be us praising him and only him. what a bunch of jibberish and nonsense
Skeledragon
did god tell you he demands your love, or did you hear that from somebody else?
... the very basis of Christian thought is that you will go to hell if you do not believe in God and Jesus Christ. He does not need to tell me anything. It is implied by the beliefs.[QUOTE="MuddVader"][QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
Theres a flaw in what you said. "Perfect as possible" If there is a god, he knows that the human being, as feeble as it is, will make mistakes and those mistakes will be forgiven as long as you remain faithful. Thats what I get from all that hubbub atleast.WOW MuddVader, you have learned a lot (being totally serious) sine the last time you asked me questions in a religious forum :D
You have it almost exactly right
I asked you questions in a religious forum? I dont remember that . .God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences. It's similar to a parent. Parent's 'demand' that their children follow their rules yet their children still have free will. If they don't follow their rules there are consequences.
BumFluff122
At least in the Bible, I think that the way in which God wants us to love him is very different than the way in which people think he wants us to love him. This passage is, I believe, edifying on this subject:
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (Matthew 25:34-40)
The implications here are made even clearer when combined with this passage:
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: ''Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" (Matthew 22:34-40)
I always found this a strange thing - Jesus is asked for a singular greatest commandment, yethe replies with two - until I realized what I believe to be a simple fact: loving God and loving your neighbor are equivalent actions; that is to say, one loves God by loving one's neighbor - the greatest commandment is fulfilled by obeying the second commandment which "is like it".
[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences. It's similar to a parent. Parent's 'demand' that their children follow their rules yet their children still have free will. If they don't follow their rules there are consequences.
BumFluff122
did god tell you he demands your love, or did you hear that from somebody else?
... the very basis of Christian thought is that you will go to hell if you do not believe in God and Jesus Christ. He does not need to tell me anything. It is implied by the beliefs.what about the people who have never heard of Jesus, are they sentenced to hell, or is it your faultfor not converting them?
Don't take anything this poster says seriously.
He is just trying to get you riled up.
This is the same guy that likes to "date" 14 year old girls...he is 20
rawsavon
okay
Perhaps the scripture says that but there have been many posts from many Christians on these boards that state that certain parts of the bible state to love him or else bad things will become of you. Many parts of the bible can be taken in several different ways. Current religious thought, however, concerns believing in Christ, becoming one with the Lord and going to church to be forgiven of your sins. That right there tells me that I must obey the Lord and believe in Him or else I will go to hell regardless if it is in the bible or not.At least in the Bible, I think that the way in which God wants us to love him is very different than the way in which people think he wants us to love him. This passage is, I believe, edifying on this subject:
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (Matthew 25:34-40)
The implications here are made even clearer when combined with this passage:
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: ''Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" (Matthew 22:34-40)
I always found this a strange thing - Jesus is asked for a singular greatest commandment, yethe replies with two - until I realized what I believe to be a simple fact: loving God and loving your neighbor are equivalent actions; that is to say, one loves God by loving one's neighbor - the greatest commandment is fulfilled by obeying the second commandment which "is like it".
GabuEx
As an atheist, I find Pat Condell to be quite rude. I mean being blunt and speaking the truth about religion is fine and all but mocking people's beliefs is quite repulsive. He gives atheists a bade name even though I agree with what he says. His videos could use a bit more tact to say the least.
Trinners
Not really. Its the only religion will eventually be removed from society if people are scorned for believing in it. Why should it be removed, its just harmless right? Why not live and let live?
Well religion interferes with society that why. The catholic church is against abortion under any circumstance and does not recognise a womans rights. Its also against stem cell / embryonic research which could lead to cures that would save millions. Its against teaching children anything that might contradict what their religion says (eg darwinism). This is but just a few examples. Don't get me started on other shall we say more 'radical' faiths.
If realigion wants to control what its followers can and can't do, thats fine, more fool the sheep for going along with it.
However when religion starts dictating what SOCIETY can and can't do, thats when it gets out of hand and must be fought against.
You do realize I'm an atheist right?what about the people who have never heard of Jesus, are they sentenced to hell, or is it your faultfor not converting them?
Skeledragon
... the very basis of Christian thought is that you will go to hell if you do not believe in God and Jesus Christ. He does not need to tell me anything. It is implied by the beliefs.[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]
did god tell you he demands your love, or did you hear that from somebody else?
Skeledragon
what about the people who have never heard of Jesus, are they sentenced to hell, or is it your faultfor not converting them?
AFAIK, people who never heard of Jesus won't goto hell and I believe they are stuck in purgatory, those that did hear about Jesus and ignored it will goto hell though.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences. It's similar to a parent. Parent's 'demand' that their children follow their rules yet their children still have free will. If they don't follow their rules there are consequences.
GabuEx
At least in the Bible, I think that the way in which God wants us to love him is very different than the way in which people think he wants us to love him. This passage is, I believe, edifying on this subject:
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (Matthew 25:34-40)
The implications here are made even clearer when combined with this passage:
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: ''Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'" (Matthew 22:34-40)
I always found this a strange thing - Jesus is asked for a singular greatest commandment, yethe replies with two - until I realized what I believe to be a simple fact: loving God and loving your neighbor are equivalent actions; that is to say, one loves God by loving one's neighbor - the greatest commandment is fulfilled by obeying the second commandment which "is like it".
that is one of the best responses i have ever read, bravo. people always try to see christianity as worshiping a god, but never realise its about serving that god by serving others. i remeber a time when i had no home, a christian friend took me in, i had no shoes, a christian friend gave me shoes, i had no ride, a christian friend gave me a car, i had no life and god gave me more than i could ever found on my own.[QUOTE="Trinners"]
As an atheist, I find Pat Condell to be quite rude. I mean being blunt and speaking the truth about religion is fine and all but mocking people's beliefs is quite repulsive. He gives atheists a bade name even though I agree with what he says. His videos could use a bit more tact to say the least.
icy06
Not really. Its the only religion will eventually be removed from society if people are scorned for believing in it. Why should it be removed, its just harmless right? Why not live and let live?
Well religion interferes with society that why. The catholic church is against abortion under any circumstance and does not recognise a womans rights. Its also against stem cell / embryonic research which could lead to cures that would save millions. Its against teaching children anything that might contradict what their religion says (eg darwinism). This is but just a few examples. Don't get me started on other shall we say more 'radical' faiths.
If realigion wants to control what its followers can and can't do, thats fine, more fool the sheep for going along with it.
However when religion starts dictating what SOCIETY can and can't do, thats when it gets out of hand and must be fought against.
By insulting each other it will only lead to bickering and bigotry. Nothing progressive can come of it. People can be against what religion is doing to society (I am one of them) but that doesn't mean I have to mock and insult the other party.
You do realize I'm an atheist right?[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]
what about the people who have never heard of Jesus, are they sentenced to hell, or is it your faultfor not converting them?
BumFluff122
you make it pretty hard to tell :shock:
but then again, i dont read sigs :P
You do realize I'm an atheist right?[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]
what about the people who have never heard of Jesus, are they sentenced to hell, or is it your faultfor not converting them?
Skeledragon
you make it pretty hard to tell :shock:
I believe his sig makes it quite obvious :P
that is one of the best responses i have ever read, bravo. people always try to see christianity as worshiping a god, but never realise its about serving that god by serving others. i remeber a time when i had no home, a christian friend took me in, i had no shoes, a christian friend gave me shoes, i had no ride, a christian friend gave me a car, i had no life and god gave me more than i could ever found on my own.
Twisted-Ice-God
Why do you need to believe in a God to be compassionate to others? If you want to show other people generocity and compassion there is nothing stopping you, you don't need a god to do that. Is it maybe because Christians think if they don't behave in this way, then they won't get into heaven and are therefore only serving their own selfish needs?
on the point of damnation, you are not damned to hell by god, you are damned to hell by sin, you are saved from hell by jesus. if there were no jesus you would go to hell, its not the sin of rejecting christ that condemns us, its our sin period.
You do realize I'm an atheist right?[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]
what about the people who have never heard of Jesus, are they sentenced to hell, or is it your faultfor not converting them?
Skeledragon
you make it pretty hard to tell :shock:
I was wondering why you asked me that question lol. You should pay attention to me in evolutionary debates. Then you'll be able to see what side of the fence I sit on clearly. (Even though I am well aware that evolution and religion are compatible)[QUOTE="Skeledragon"]
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]You do realize I'm an atheist right?
Trinners
you make it pretty hard to tell :shock:
I believe his sig makes it quite obvious :P
Both the unions aside from the atheism union are both religious forums. One is for debate while the other is for spreading religious knowledge. Though the word 'atheist' in one of the unions I'm pretty sure is a dead giveaway.[QUOTE="Twisted-Ice-God"]
that is one of the best responses i have ever read, bravo. people always try to see christianity as worshiping a god, but never realise its about serving that god by serving others. i remeber a time when i had no home, a christian friend took me in, i had no shoes, a christian friend gave me shoes, i had no ride, a christian friend gave me a car, i had no life and god gave me more than i could ever found on my own.
icy06
Why do you need to believe in a God to be compassionate to others? If you want to show other people generocity and compassion there is nothing stopping you, you don't need a god to do that. Is it maybe because Christians think if they don't behave in this way, then they won't get into heaven and are therefore only serving their own selfish needs?
my friend who did this has no fear of going to hell, no hope of some personal gradification, he did it because he had the ability to do it and he knew that god wanted it of him, as it says if you do unto the least of my brethren then you have done unto me, he saw helping me as a way to show the love of god, nothing selfish at all. no one ever said other faiths cant have generosity its just that is the foundation of loving god in the christian faith.on the point of damnation, you are not damned to hell by god, you are damned to hell by sin, you are saved from hell by jesus. if there were no jesus you would go to hell, its not the sin of rejecting christ that condemns us, its our sin period.
Twisted-Ice-God
But god is omniscient. Why would god create the concept of sin if he knew full well that we would commit them and make him unhappy?
Why would god punish us for doing something that he created but didn't want us to do while at the same time knowing full well we would do it?
haha ok.
im mainly a lurker, so i dont reallyknow the people on OT...
You will be one of us soon *evil laugh*haha ok.
im mainly a lurker, so i dont reallyknow the people on OT...
Skeledragon
[QUOTE="Stesilaus"]
You can liberate yourself from all that drivel and all that obligatory, externally-imposed self-loathing.
Sometimes, all it takes is to see things from the perspective of an intelligent and articulate person who is not afraid to speak his mind about religion.
I present ...
Children of a Stupid God
by Pat Condell
GabuEx
No offense to Mr. Condell, but his rant lacks a certain perspective that a historical examination of Christianity and Islam would provide. The two religions' histories are actually quite similar, but I would imagine not in the respect that he would expect. In its original incarnation, Christianity preached that God was love andthat all men would be reconciled to God. Then, along came St. Augustine and said "nope, that's heresy, you'll all burn in hell unless you listen to the Church", and down it all came crumbling, men of power having thoroughly gotten their claws into the religion and having twisted it to their own ends. Similarly, in Islam's original incarnation, it lead the world in scientific advancement, welcoming all people with open arms to Baghdad, which at the time was the scientific center of the world. Then, however, a guy named al-Ghazali came along and said "nope, that's heresy and the work of the devil, let's abandon all that and rely on God's word instead". And so plunged Islam into darkness as well, some seven hundred years after the same happened to Christianity.
Those who note that many, many terrible things have come from observance of religion are absolutely correct; they are not correct, however, in concluding anything about the religions themselves as a result. Neither Christianity nor Islam began in the form in which they exist today; they both have gotten to that point only through the hunger for power of humans and the resulting twisting of teachings that result when such humans decide that what they want to be true is more important than what the masses actually found in their religions.
Thank you for your response, GabuEx. I appreciate the time you took to prepare that very informative overview.
I was aware of St Augustine's role in transforming Christianity into a more judgemental system of belief, but I wasn't aware that Islam had it's equivalent in al-Ghazali.
I'd long thought that the transformation of Islamic culture from culturally- and scientifically progressive to repressively fundamentalist was a by-product of Genghis Khan's devastation of the Khwarezmian Empire ca 1200AD.
That's false, I'm a Christian and you don't have to be as "perfect as possible" in order to get to Heaven. As long as you're saved and ask God to forgive you for your sins everyday, then you should be okay. (There's more to it than that)Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
DragonRebel0908
IF funny that us humans... think we know what god is.....i dont know you dont know no one knows..... That's a true thought[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]
Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.
bsman00
Perhaps the scripture says that but there have been many posts from many Christians on these boards that state that certain parts of the bible state to love him or else bad things will become of you. Many parts of the bible can be taken in several different ways. Current religious thought, however, concerns believing in Christ, becoming one with the Lord and going to church to be forgiven of your sins. That right there tells me that I must obey the Lord and believe in Him or else I will go to hell regardless if it is in the bible or not.
BumFluff122
Well, I obviously disagree with thatinterpretation of the text. At the end of the day, one should not form an opinion of a religious text purely based on what some believers say of it. I'm likely very much at odds with mainstream Christian thought, but that doesn't bother me. I'm not interested in "current religious thought", because that is by and large the product of other perfectly falliblehuman beings.
The point of my post was really just to illustrate the fact that one ought not mistake religion for its followers - if someone says something about a passage from a religious text that is completely at odds with your rational faculties, that does not necessarily mean that the text itself is wrong; it could very well be that the person is the one who is wrong.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
Perhaps the scripture says that but there have been many posts from many Christians on these boards that state that certain parts of the bible state to love him or else bad things will become of you. Many parts of the bible can be taken in several different ways. Current religious thought, however, concerns believing in Christ, becoming one with the Lord and going to church to be forgiven of your sins. That right there tells me that I must obey the Lord and believe in Him or else I will go to hell regardless if it is in the bible or not.
GabuEx
Well, I obviously disagree with thatinterpretation of the text. At the end of the day, one should not form an opinion of a religious text purely based on what some believers say of it. I'm likely very much at odds with mainstream Christian thought, but that doesn't bother me. I'm not interested in "current religious thought", because that is by and large the product of other perfectly falliblehuman beings.
The point of my post was really just to illustrate the fact that one ought not mistake religion for its followers - if someone says something about a passage from a religious text that is completely at odds with your rational faculties, that does not necessarily mean that the text itself is wrong; it could very well be that the person is the one who is wrong.
That is exactly what church, mosques, what have you is for though. For the people to come together under one roof and share their beliefs while also being influenced by the beliefs of those in power. Regardless if it is not what was meant to happen, which I disagree with on some level, it is what is happening now. I see the church and the religious ideas they spread as more of a business. They spread the word by telling the population that if they don't believe they will go to hell. OF course everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of their preferred religious text but that same religious text is exactly where these religious followers who get the ideas to go out and make believers of non believers so they can be one with God and live with him in Heaven get their ideas from. And they often support it with scripture as well as has been evidenced by many of the theistic threads here in the past.Please Log In to post.
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