I can see why a lot of people don't want to be Christians...

[QUOTE="Stinger78"] The Bible states the terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit so, implied or not, they are mentioned._Tobli_

Do you need a cough drop? *cough* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi2nAHPpgvI *cough* maybe I need one also.

The term Father:
Jesus used the term Father countless times for God. Check out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for quite a few examples of the term Father.
I want to specifically point out Matthew chapter 6 verses 8-13. It's often referred to as "The Lord's Prayer".

The term Son:
Daniel 3:25 - "... Son of God" - Son is the term used.
Again, check out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for quite a few examples of the term Son.

Hebrews chapter 1 verse 5 uses the term Son, the term Father, and the term Son for a 2nd time.

The term Holy Spirit:
Matthew 1:18 - "she was found with child of the Holy Spirit"
Luke 11:13 - "heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him"
John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life"
The books of Acts and Romans have quite a few examples of the term Holy Spirit.

I find it interesting that the video you posted a link of didn't mention Hebrews chapter 1 verses 8 and 9 that say "But to the Son He says:" ... "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You." - Literally the Son - Jesus - is being declard God by God.

Then there are:
John 5:17 "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working" - Jesus declares equality with God.
John 5:30 "My judgment is righteous". Jahn 6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 8:24 "I am He"
John 8:28 "I am He".

Sorry for the long post.

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

Perhaps the scripture says that but there have been many posts from many Christians on these boards that state that certain parts of the bible state to love him or else bad things will become of you. Many parts of the bible can be taken in several different ways. Current religious thought, however, concerns believing in Christ, becoming one with the Lord and going to church to be forgiven of your sins. That right there tells me that I must obey the Lord and believe in Him or else I will go to hell regardless if it is in the bible or not.

GabuEx

Well, I obviously disagree with thatinterpretation of the text. At the end of the day, one should not form an opinion of a religious text purely based on what some believers say of it. I'm likely very much at odds with mainstream Christian thought, but that doesn't bother me. I'm not interested in "current religious thought", because that is by and large the product of other perfectly falliblehuman beings.

The point of my post was really just to illustrate the fact that one ought not mistake religion for its followers - if someone says something about a passage from a religious text that is completely at odds with your rational faculties, that does not necessarily mean that the text itself is wrong; it could very well be that the person is the one who is wrong.

I guess religious institutions really are to blame. I never understood why some religions need an institutional body in order to function or stay alive. By creating a false "official" entity to represent a religion, more problems will just arise since there is nothing that can be deemed "official" or the "truth" when it comes to religion as people will always have different interpretations of it. The church (the institution of a religion) just creates more conflict by uniting a group of people while at the same time separating and turning them against others by proclaiming their way is the right way.

That is exactly what church, mosques, what have you is for though. For the people to come together under one roof and share their beliefs while also being influenced by the beliefs of those in power. Regardless if it is not what was meant to happen, which I disagree with on some level, it is what is happening now. I see the church and the religious ideas they spread as more of a business. They spread the word by telling the population that if they don't believe they will go to hell. OF course everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of their preferred religious text but that same religious text is exactly where these religious followers who get the ideas to go out and make believers of non believers so they can be one with God and live with him in Heaven get their ideas from. And they often support it with scripture as well as has been evidenced by many of the theistic threads here in the past.

BumFluff122

I don't really know what you're saying here. All I was doing was providing a counterpoint to the statements you seemed to be making of what the religions said on the basis of what adherents have said. If it is of no effect, that's your business; all I wish to do is provide some food for thought in the hopes of challenging what I see as implicit assumptions that you may or may not have realized you were making.

i agree totaly with you, i am not what you call a traditional christian, i quit going to church because of hipocracy and lies, as well as other faults i dont blame the faith for, but instead i choose to serve god in the way he has shown me, by telling others, showing those who want to see, and helping those i can. in this way i serve god and he blesses me with some of the greatest treasures that no man could offer me. peace of mind, a companion who fufills me deepest needs, and friends who support me through the hardest of times and a family who always is there for me.

Twisted-Ice-God

Well more power to you then. :)

I don't really know what you're saying here. All I was doing was providing a counterpoint to the statements you seemed to be making of what the religions said on the basis of what adherents have said. If it is of no effect, that's your business; all I wish to do is provide some food for thought in the hopes of challenging what I see as implicit assumptions that you may or may not have realized you were making.

GabuEx

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

What church do you go to? That's not right at all.

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

You're not going to go to hell if you have a beer, admire an attractive girl or say a swear word. There's nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation. To notice an attractive member of the opposite sex is completely natural...it's only when you lust after that person that it becomes a sin. If you swear, big deal...everyone loses self control once in a while. No one is perfect. That's why why Jesus gave his life...to atone for the inherited sin from Adam. The entire dotrine of hell is highly questionable. I personally don't believe a literal hell exists. The only hell that exists, in my opinion, is the resulting pain and suffering one experiences due to making poor decisions and/or experiencing unfortunate circumstances.

[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

StrawberryHill

You're not going to go to hell if you have a beer, admire an attractive girl or say a swear word. There's nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation. To notice an attractive member of the opposite sex is completely natural...it's only when you lust after that person that it becomes a sin. If you swear, big deal...everyone loses self control once in a while. No one is perfect. That's why why Jesus gave his life...to atone for the inherited sin from Adam. The entire dotrine of hell is highly questionable. I personally don't believe a literal hell exists. The only hell that exists, in my opinion, is the resulting pain and suffering one experiences due to making poor decisions and/or experiencing unfortunate circumstances.

Is saying "x" girl is beautiful or hot lusting?

It really sucks for them to tell you that God loves you and is on your side and that you have the power to do whatever your heart desires, and then say you're gonna go to hell anyway if you're not perfect. I don't think the pastors are as "perfect as possible" either.

I believe in God and Jesus but I don't believe that God would send someone to hell just because they're not 100% pure and holy in everything they do if he's a loving God. I've accepted Jesus as my savior and I care about other people.

DragonRebel0908

I agree....as a side note: i don't see how people who do good thigns because of fear are considered good

the church has already answered this one
1.jesus died for your sins
2.god promised that mankind will join him in heaven if they have faith
3.the bible does not state man has to be perfect to get into heaven

I think my original post had more to do with the way religious people expressed their beliefs rather than how various religious individuals interpretted their beliefs. I'm aware that many believers who interpret the bible in many different ways.BumFluff122

Well, I'm mostly referring to parts like this:

God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences.BumFluff122

Thatbore strong resemblanceto things that people tend to say in response to having heard things from conservative Christians, which are things that I tend to want to correct considering that I am aChristian and prefer not to have those people speak for my faith. :P

I agree....as a side note: i don't see how people who do good thigns because of fear are considered good

ArmoredAshes

I agree completely; fear should never, ever be a motivator for religious belief.

My church is the exact opposite of this. They call the people you're talking about "Grace-killers". According to my church, you DON'T need to be perfect in order to get to heaven. But hey, thats just my church.

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]I think my original post had more to do with the way religious people expressed their beliefs rather than how various religious individuals interpretted their beliefs. I'm aware that many believers who interpret the bible in many different ways.GabuEx

Well, I'm mostly referring to parts like this:

God does demand that we love him. There are consequences for not loving him. Therefor we must love him in order to not face those consequences.BumFluff122

Thatbore strong resemblanceto things that people tend to say in response to having heard things from conservative Christians, which are things that I tend to want to correct considering that I am a Christian and prefer not to have those people speak for my faith. :P

I guess mainstream belief has been bastardized somewhat from what the original text was suppose to convey, as it is with almost every religion.

[QUOTE="StrawberryHill"]

[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

You're not going to go to hell if you have a beer, admire an attractive girl or say a swear word. There's nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation. To notice an attractive member of the opposite sex is completely natural...it's only when you lust after that person that it becomes a sin. If you swear, big deal...everyone loses self control once in a while. No one is perfect. That's why why Jesus gave his life...to atone for the inherited sin from Adam. The entire dotrine of hell is highly questionable. I personally don't believe a literal hell exists. The only hell that exists, in my opinion, is the resulting pain and suffering one experiences due to making poor decisions and/or experiencing unfortunate circumstances.

Is saying "x" girl is beautiful or hot lusting?

I don't think so. It depends on what's in your heart. If you're a straight guy, there's absolutely nothing wrong with noticing and even commenting about how attractive a woman is. If you think someone is attractive, what are your intentions when you notice and comment about it? If you are thinking in your heart nothing more than how you want to bend her over and...well, you get the point...that's more lustful. In the end, I think it's your heart condition that determines whether or not something is a sin. Only God can judge your heart. No man has that authority. And even if you do lust after someone, God will forgive you if you change your thinking patterns.

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

I don't want to burn in hell.

I don't want to burn in hell.

DragonRebel0908

[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]

I don't want to burn in hell.

BumFluff122

I'm not. I really don't want to burn in hell. That's a no-brainer.

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]

I don't want to burn in hell.

DragonRebel0908

I'm not. I really don't want to burn in hell. That's a no-brainer.

Yeah...I'll need to talk to a friend or perhaps even the pastor about this. Eh.

Ahhh. What I am saying is that it depends on the way you interpret the bible. Different people interpret it different ways. Main stream christianity has stated time and time again that if you do not believe you will be going to hell. I'm fairly sure that many of the christians in here believe that way. The interpretation of the bible is up to the individual though. I do respect the way that you have interpretted it though but that doesn't take away from how the other people have interpretted it in telling people like me are going to hell and we have no morals, etc...etc....

BumFluff122

I understand that; Iwould just prefer it if people didn't frame mainstream religious thought as if it were the correct version that everyone must work with if they are to follow that religion. Like I said, I think that people ought to hold interpretations of a text that they find repugnant against those making such interpretations, not against the text itself - a book or collection of books has never by itself done anything to anyone.

I guess mainstream belief has been bastardized somewhat from what the original text was suppose to convey, as it is with almost every religion.

BumFluff122

Given the historical record of the beliefs and attitudesof the earliest Christians and Muslims, I would say "somewhat" is a bit of an understatement. :P

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

i thought all you had to do was sell you sou.....err accept jesus as your lord and savour?

Thessassin

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

Ahhh. What I am saying is that it depends on the way you interpret the bible. Different people interpret it different ways. Main stream christianity has stated time and time again that if you do not believe you will be going to hell. I'm fairly sure that many of the christians in here believe that way. The interpretation of the bible is up to the individual though. I do respect the way that you have interpretted it though but that doesn't take away from how the other people have interpretted it in telling people like me are going to hell and we have no morals, etc...etc....

GabuEx

I understand that; Iwould just prefer it if people didn't frame mainstream religious thought as if it were the correct version that everyone must work with if they are to follow that religion. Like I said, I think that people ought to hold interpretations of a text that they find repugnant against those making such interpretations, not against the text itself - a book or collection of books has never by itself done anything to anyone.

Yeah...I'll need to talk to a friend or perhaps even the pastor about this. Eh.

DragonRebel0908

You're going to the wrong church, cause that pastor is wrong. No one can measure up to god's standard for heaven, which is why we must accept jesus as the savior. Good works or "perfection" are not how you get into heaven.

You're going to the wrong church, cause that pastor is wrong. No one can measure up to god's standard for heaven, which is why we must accept jesus as the savior. Good works or "perfection" are not how you get into heaven.

TaCoDuDe

[QUOTE="TaCoDuDe"]

You're going to the wrong church, cause that pastor is wrong. No one can measure up to god's standard for heaven, which is why we must accept jesus as the savior. Good works or "perfection" are not how you get into heaven.

sSubZerOo

It's highly impossible to live a "perfect life".

You're going to the wrong church, cause that pastor is wrong. No one can measure up to god's standard for heaven, which is why we must accept jesus as the savior. Good works or "perfection" are not how you get into heaven.

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

Christians view God as more or less a big prick Pretend you love someone and tell them "don't swear", but then of course they end up swearing at some point anyway. Now would you send this person that you love to Hell to be in agony for the rest of eternity? No, of course not, that's absurd. So I wouldn't worry about that very much.

Oh, and originally Christianity was used to support slavery, so I wouldn't worry about anything they tell you too much.

I don't think you understand - your pastor is correct in a way. As a Christian, you would have to TRY to be as perfect as POSSIBLE. But the whole reason for Jesus's coming to visit us was to make it possible for us to be accepted for our failings. Even a single failing is apparently enough to send you to Hell, because apparently God is incapable of allowing sin into His presence (at least from the fundamentalist point of view, that's how it works).

Now, if you love God, you will always strive to do what He wants for you, just as you would for any other person you love. It doesn't mean you will always succeed, nor that He expects you will, because if He thought anyone who loved Him could, Jesus would have had no reason to come down here. I think this is the point your pastor was trying to make - not that you will be sent to Hell for a single sin, even if you're a Christian.

Just try to avoid sin whenever possible. When you're faced with temptation, turn away from it. And when you make a mistake and sin, ask God's forgiveness and do your very best not to do it again. It's the effort and desire that counts much more than whether or not you're successful. If you take pleasure in sin and feel you can do something you know is wrong as much as you like just because you're Christian - well, that's where you'd run into problems with God.

:lol:

...and I can't believe I just wrote that.

Christians view God as more or less a big prick

bballm10

Hit the nail on the head. If I did believe in that god, I would view him as evil.

He wants you to bow down to him? He is all forgiving, yet he ended the world by flooding it all? He can do anything, and one of his powers was to make a perfect apple tree, but he wouldn't let his own two first creations eat off it? He will send you to hell for killing, stealing, rapeing, lying, cheating, and a huge list of other things unless you repent? He would let you get sent to hell for drinking a beer? He cast one of his angels from heaven for questioning him?

Sounds like a nice guy.

I think George Carlin said it best

Warning: Lots of foul language.

I definitely want to remain Christian but the guy basically said that you have to be as close to perfect as possible to get into heaven.

I definitely want to remain Christian but the guy basically said that you have to be as close to perfect as possible to get into heaven.

DragonRebel0908

What do you mean by "perfect"? Because that can be defined in a myriad of different ways.

No offense but the pastor is wrong. We do not have to be "as perfect as we can" to go to Heaven. If you have noticedsome Saints were sinners in their past, but turned to God and became great men and women. They were not perfect, but that didn't mean they would have to suffer. The thing is that if you are not perfect and are sorry for your sins od will forgive you, because nobody is perfect.

I definitely want to remain Christian but the guy basically said that you have to be as close to perfect as possible to get into heaven.

DragonRebel0908

He wants you to bow down to him?

firstfist

Not out of fear. This is critical. I have slowly come to the recognition that doing what Jesus instructs us in the New Testament brings the happiest life here on Earth, not just a reward after death. Even if I suddenly was faced with absolute proof of the nonexistence of God tomorrow, I doubt I would change the way in which I live my life. We ought to follow Jesus' instructions not because we fear hell, but because we love our fellow man and know that doing so will bring us peace and happiness in life.

He is all forgiving, yet he ended the world by flooding it all? He can do anything, and one of his powers was to make a perfect apple tree, but he wouldn't let his own two first creations eat off it?

firstfist

Quite frankly I view those as just parables with a message, not as actual historical accounts, something which is a recurring thing in the Bible. This is not some sort of new idea brought about just in the light of modern science; even in its earliest days there was a Christian school of thought that preached an allegorical interpretation of the Bible.

He will send you to hell for killing, stealing, rapeing, lying, cheating, and a huge list of other things unless you repent?

firstfist

Two things:

1. One who kills, steals, rapes, or whatever else is one who has hatred in his heart, and is thus incapable of loving his neighbor as himself. Do you not agree that it is better for the individual not to do such things? And would you not commend someone who convinced someone to lead a life without such hatred?

2. The modern picture of hell as a fiery place of eternal torment is an invention that came much later through the combination of a bad translation of the Bible from Greek to Latin and of power-hungry people who viewed such a concept as useful for the purposes of control. The earliest Christians who read the original Greek believed in no such place - they believed that hell was a place of purification of souls who did not recognize the beauty of Jesus' message prior to death for the purposes of their ultimate reconciliation with God.

The bottom line is that God loves you, and will always love you - the doctrine of eternal torment is a travesty that was never in the original text of the Bible.

He would let you get sent to hell for drinking a beer?

firstfist

Considering that wine is drank many times in the Bible, I would find it hard to see any Biblical basis against all consumption of alcohol. One can find a condemnation of those who drink so much they puke, but I think most would agree that that is rather abusive to one's body and not very conducive to happiness, either.

He cast one of his angels from heaven for questioning him?

firstfist

To be honest I don't really know what I think about the whole Satan thing, whether it is a metaphor for the inherent dark side of all men or whether it is intended to actually be a literal being - but either way, as the story goes, Lucifer was cast from heaven for rebellion against God, not for questioning God. And many of the earliest Christians believed that God's ultimate victory over evil would come in the form of reconciling even Lucifer to God in the very end, too.

I think George Carlin said it best

Warning: Lots of foul language.

pyromaniac223

Ugh. I'm usually not one to speak ill of the dead, but George Carlin tended to annoy me a lot. When he's saying things that are true, he's hilarious, but a lot of the time he comes across more as ignorant than insightful, on account of the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect.

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"]

I think George Carlin said it best

Warning: Lots of foul language.

GabuEx

Ugh. I'm usually not one to speak ill of the dead, but George Carlin tended to annoy me a lot. When he's saying things that are true, he's hilarious, but a lot of the time he comes across more as ignorant than insightful, on account of the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect.

Last night at church the pastor was saying that you have to be as "perfect as possible" to get into heaven. No human being can be perfect. They talk about God's love and mercy and then turn around and say you're gonna go to hell anyway. People can believe in God, have faith in him, worship him, thank him, be kind and loving to others and help those in need but if they check out a hot girl or drink a beer or say a cuss word they're automatically going to hell regardless. That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.

DragonRebel0908

"as perfect as possible" means "as close to perfect as possible"

see what abig difference just one word can make?

Anyway, dont sweat it man. Im not religious, but Im not antireligous and if your faith is important to you I think you shouldnt be put off by this.

If there is a God, I think it realizes that in fact we are not perfect...hell, if youre going by the Bible, he problably realized this early and kicked us out of Eden because of it. Or something, idunno.

Anyway, like I said, dont make such a fuss over it.

Just do the best you can to be a good person and God will be happy with you.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"]

I think George Carlin said it best

Warning: Lots of foul language.

pyromaniac223

Ugh. I'm usually not one to speak ill of the dead, but George Carlin tended to annoy me a lot. When he's saying things that are true, he's hilarious, but a lot of the time he comes across more as ignorant than insightful, on account of the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect.

the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect

the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect

the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect

the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect

the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect

is it fact yet?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="pyromaniac223"]

I think George Carlin said it best

Warning: Lots of foul language.

pyromaniac223

Ugh. I'm usually not one to speak ill of the dead, but George Carlin tended to annoy me a lot. When he's saying things that are true, he's hilarious, but a lot of the time he comes across more as ignorant than insightful, on account of the fact that the stuff he's saying is just factually incorrect.