I can see why a lot of people don't want to be Christians...

[QUOTE="StaRzeG"]I like how all those rapists and gangbangers and murderers in jail can be "FORGIVEN" by God just because they are Christians and they can end up going to "heaven" too.GabuEx

Only if they are truly and deeply remorseful of what they have done such that they wish no longer to do it from this point on. Sincere repentance is not something one says or a motion one goes through, but rather something contained within one's heart. The past cannot be changed, but if someone sincerely wishes to put it behind him or her and work to improve the future, ought we not give them that chance rather than pointlessly damning them for all time for something that they can no longer change?

Are you applying that to murderers too? I really don't see how taking away an innocent persons life can ever be forgiven.

That crap right there ticks me off but makes me scared and nervous at the same time.DragonRebel0908

i thought all you had to do was sell you sou.....err accept jesus as your lord and savour?

Thessassin

LOL nice work :)

One good thing about being a christian is forgiveness. The atheists who have done wrong and feels guilty can never feel that he has been forgiven because God is not part of his belief. So sticking to beliefs, a christian can feel the comfort knowing that there is a God who is forgiving and will forgive if he is truly sorry for what he is done, while an Atheist may feel guilty and horrible throughout his whole lifetime.

I'm not defending anyone here but "As perfect as possible" leaves a lot of leeway.

Are you applying that to murderers too? I really don't see how taking away an innocent persons life can ever be forgiven.

dog64

The murdered find their way to heaven just the same as those who die a natural death, as do their friends, family, and loved ones. If we are to hold forever against someone anything they do that can never be quite undone, then I would wager that not a single one would come out of life blameless. What end do we hope to accomplish by forever holding over someone's head what they will forever wish they had not done?

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone." (John 8:7)

You can't seriously say that cussing or looking at porn is equivalent to killing or abusing someone.

You can't seriously say that cussing or looking at porn is equivalent to killing or abusing someone.

DragonRebel0908

Is this directed at me, or someone else?

[QUOTE="dog64"]

Are you applying that to murderers too? I really don't see how taking away an innocent persons life can ever be forgiven.

GabuEx

The murdered find their way to heaven just the same as those who die a natural death, as do their friends, family, and loved ones. If we are to hold forever against someone anything they do that can never be quite undone, then I would wager that not a single one would come out of life blameless. What end do we hope to accomplish by forever holding over someone's head what they will forever wish they had not done?

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone." (John 8:7)

But taking a persons life, the penalty for that is heavy. Saying sorry isn't going to fix that. If someone murdered a member of your family, you would be willing to forgive them? I would think not, it's the worst thing that can happen to a loved one. And a person who kills can never be trusted again. He killed once, so he can do it again.

But taking a persons life, the penalty for that is heavy. Saying sorry isn't going to fix that. If someone murdered a member of your family, you would be willing to forgive them? I would think not, it's the worst thing that can happen to a loved one. And a person who kills can never be trusted again. He killed once, so he can do it again.

dog64

If he was sincerely remorseful, understood the effects of what he had done, and would not do it again, and if I knew all of this for a fact, then yes, I would. Why would I not? What would I gain if I did not? Would it bring back the person I lost? Would it lessen the pain? Would it somehow tip back the balance of justice? Of course not; it would only serve to further harm both the person and myself in the process. There really ought to be only two purposes to punishment: rehabilitation, or, if that is impossible, the protection of society from the person. Nothing has ever been gained in the history of the world from returning a wrong with another wrong: an eye for an eye only serves to make the world blind.

Even as Jesus stood crucified and dying, he implored his Father to forgive those who had done this, for "they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34) There is only one thing that is destroyed through living a life without forgiveness, and that is yourself.

One good thing about being a christian is forgiveness. The atheists who have done wrong and feels guilty can never feel that he has been forgiven because God is not part of his belief. So sticking to beliefs, a christian can feel the comfort knowing that there is a God who is forgiving and will forgive if he is truly sorry for what he is done, while an Atheist may feel guilty and horrible throughout his whole lifetime.

The_Nintendawg

You can't seriously say that cussing or looking at porn is equivalent to killing or abusing someone.

DragonRebel0908

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="dog64"]

Are you applying that to murderers too? I really don't see how taking away an innocent persons life can ever be forgiven.

The murdered find their way to heaven just the same as those who die a natural death, as do their friends, family, and loved ones. If we are to hold forever against someone anything they do that can never be quite undone, then I would wager that not a single one would come out of life blameless. What end do we hope to accomplish by forever holding over someone's head what they will forever wish they had not done?

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone." (John 8:7)

But taking a persons life, the penalty for that is heavy. Saying sorry isn't going to fix that. If someone murdered a member of your family, you would be willing to forgive them? I would think not, it's the worst thing that can happen to a loved one. And a person who kills can never be trusted again. He killed once, so he can do it again.

Just cause you are "forgiven" by this dude up there called "God" for child molestation doesn't change the fact that you are a child molester. If you don't feel guilty after molesting children, it doesn't mean you are "forgiven", it means you are a ****ed up individual.StaRzeG

Again... it's not just a matter of going through some rote motions and then everything's fine. It's a matter of feeling truly remorseful for what you've done and of wishing never to do it again.

One good thing about being a christian is forgiveness. The atheists who have done wrong and feels guilty can never feel that he has been forgiven because God is not part of his belief. So sticking to beliefs, a christian can feel the comfort knowing that there is a God who is forgiving and will forgive if he is truly sorry for what he is done, while an Atheist may feel guilty and horrible throughout his whole lifetime.

It really sucks for them to tell you that God loves you and is on your side and that you have the power to do whatever your heart desires, and then say you're gonna go to hell anyway if you're not perfect. I don't think the pastors are as "perfect as possible" either.

I believe in God and Jesus but I don't believe that God would send someone to hell just because they're not 100% pure and holy in everything they do if he's a loving God. I've accepted Jesus as my savior and I care about other people.

DragonRebel0908

[QUOTE="dog64"]

But taking a persons life, the penalty for that is heavy. Saying sorry isn't going to fix that. If someone murdered a member of your family, you would be willing to forgive them? I would think not, it's the worst thing that can happen to a loved one. And a person who kills can never be trusted again. He killed once, so he can do it again.

GabuEx

If he was sincerely remorseful, understood the effects of what he had done, and would not do it again, and if I knew all of this for a fact, then yes, I would. Why would I not? What would I gain if I did not? Would it bring back the person I lost? Would it lessen the pain? Would it somehow tip back the balance of justice? Of course not; it would only serve to further harm both the person and myself in the process. There really ought to be only two purposes to punishment: rehabilitation, or, if that is impossible, the protection of society from the person. Nothing has ever been gained in the history of the world from returning a wrong with another wrong: an eye for an eye only serves to make the world blind.

Even as Jesus stood crucified and dying, he implored his Father to forgive those who had done this, for "they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34) There is only one thing that is destroyed through living a life without forgiveness, and that is yourself.

I have a feeling that you would feel different if, god forbid, that situation actually were to happen. I have heard of "unforgivable" sins (I think adultery) but I'm not sure if there is such a sin. I really don't see what could be worse than taking someones life. It shows that the person has no respect for human life and they do not even care. People like that are evil, and there are evil people in the world. I know that people can change, but some can't and won't. And even if they were to change, that doesn't make up and pay for what they have done. Afterall, what is god's penalty?

Perhaps I feel this way because I am not Christian. I do not know if people go to heaven after death. Rather I realize the possibility that death could very well be the end and the only chance we have at life is the life we're living right now, and when it's over then it's over. A murderer can take away your only chance at life, and that I believe is something that cannot be forgiven. As for the quoted scripture, many murderers are conscious of what they are doing. Some maybe not for cause of insanity, but I think in most cases, the suspect commits the murder out of rage, revenge, lust, or just at random which are all usually pre-meditated.

dog64 wrote:

I have a feeling that you would feel different if, god forbid, that situation actually were to happen.

I don't think either you or I know what I would do, so that seems pointless to discuss, especially since what I would do is not necessarily representative of what one ought to do.

dog64 wrote:

I have heard of "unforgivable" sins (I think adultery) but I'm not sure if there is such a sin.

The Bible, properly understood, teaches of no such sin.

I really don't see what could be worse than taking someones life. It shows that the person has no respect for human life and they do not even care. People like that are evil, and there are evil people in the world.

dog64

Well, that's where you and I diverge. People do not do things for no reason. Anyone who does something has been led through their life to the ultimate conclusion that what they did was the best course of action to fulfill whatever desire their path had led them to hold. We do not choose our position in life, and neither do we choose our desires in life; these are things that are given to us against our will and are things that we must simply grapple with as we try to find our way. There are no evil people; there are only those who have been led through life to evil desires. Once one recognizes this fact, forgiveness becomes not only easy, but logically necessary, for what are we to hold against someone if they ultimately had no choice in the matter? This is one of the main things that has lead me to my conclusions about the reasons for which one ought to be punished: we can either attempt to change people's desires for the better or we can prevent them from carrying out those evil desires, but we ultimately cannot hold them culpable for holding those desires.

I know that people can change, but some can't and won't. And even if they were to change, that doesn't make up and pay for what they have done. Afterall, what is god's penalty?

dog64

What is God's penalty? According to the Bible, corrective punishment and purification for the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind with God. God's love does not fail, nor does judgment ultimately triumph over mercy.

No, they cannot make up for and pay for what they've done. But that precisely is why it is so senseless to continue to hold what they did against them even when they wish so much to change. Doing that no more provides a repayment for what they did than forgiveness, yet it carries with it the additional punishment of the internalization of the hatred that has been shown against the one who refuses to forgive.

Perhaps I feel this way because I am not Christian. I do not know if people go to heaven after death. Rather I realize the possibility that death could very well be the end and the only chance we have at life is the life we're living right now, and when it's over then it's over. A murderer can take away your only chance at life, and that I believe is something that cannot be forgiven. As for the quoted scripture, many murderers are conscious of what they are doing. Some maybe not for cause of insanity, but I think in most cases, the suspect commits the murder out of rage, revenge, lust, or just at random which are all usually pre-meditated.

dog64

Well, the way I see it, there are two options: either there is nothing after death, in which case it is already inevitable that you will one day never see those whom you love again, or there is something after death, in which case you will see those whom you love again no matter what. Therefore, no murderer can ever truly take anything away that would not otherwise have been taken away: they only either speed up what would have already happened, or they momentarily place a break between the time you will see the person again.

As I have asked many times before, what does one gain from refusing to forgive, except for pain and suffering that will not end? If you fear that someone will kill again, then by all means avoid that person and do what you can to prevent him from doing so, but that by no means that you ought to hate this person. Forgiveness is the first step towards peace; without it, there can be no peace, ever.

"This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.' For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:9-15)

Well, that's where you and I diverge. People do not do things for no reason. Anyone who does something has been led through their life to the ultimate conclusion that what they did was the best course of action to fulfill whatever desire their path had led them to hold. We do not choose our position in life, and neither do we choose our desires in life; these are things that are given to us against our will and are things that we must simply grapple with as we try to find our way. There are no evil people; there are only those who have been led through life to evil desires. Once one recognizes this fact, forgiveness becomes not only easy, but logically necessary, for what are we to hold against someone if they ultimately had no choice in the matter? This is one of the main things that has lead me to my conclusions about the reasons for which one ought to be punished: we can either attempt to change people's desires for the better or we can prevent them from carrying out those evil desires, but we ultimately cannot hold them culpable for holding those desires.

GabuEx

I suppose so. I do believe that there are evil people in the world. There are some that just don't seem capable of doing good, although I do believe that good exists in all of us as well. So while nobody may be 100% pure evil, evil does win over some people. To sum it up, I use the term evil in a general term. If a person mostly does evil, then he is therefore an evil person imo.

I also believe that a person has a choice in the desires that he chooses to fulfill. I believe we all have evil desires, but that doesn't mean that we will all succumb to the desires and eventually act on them.

What is God's penalty? According to the Bible, corrective punishment and purification for the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind with God. God's love does not fail, nor does judgment ultimately triumph over mercy.

No, they cannot make up for and pay for what they've done. But that precisely is why it is so senseless to continue to hold what they did against them even when they wish so much to change. Doing that no more provides a repayment for what they did than forgiveness, yet it carries with it the additional punishment of the internalization of the hatred that has been shown against the one who refuses to forgive.

GabuEx

I always though god's penalty is death, from the scripture at Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death". Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I get from this scripture is that anyone who sins deserves death. And in Numbers, it states "....he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death". Take Adam and Eve for example. If you take it literally, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge which was a sin against god. Their penalty? Eventual death, when otherwise their lives would of been infinite.

Well, the way I see it, there are two options: either there is nothing after death, in which case it is already inevitable that you will one day never see those whom you love again, or there is something after death, in which case you will see those whom you love again no matter what. Therefore, no murderer can ever truly take anything away that would not otherwise have been taken away: they only either speed up what would have already happened, or they momentarily place a break between the time you will see the person again.

As I have asked many times before, what does one gain from refusing to forgive, except for pain and suffering that will not end? If you fear that someone will kill again, then by all means avoid that person and do what you can to prevent him from doing so, but that by no means that you ought to hate this person. Forgiveness is the first step towards peace; without it, there can be no peace, ever.

"This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.' For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:9-15)

GabuEx

If there is nothing after death, then your murderer took away your only chance at life, a chance you will never receive again. Your life was cut short for no good reason and the murderer has left your family with severe grief and pain, something that will never go away regardless of what is done afterwards. Nothing done on this earth can heal the pain or bring back the victim, but knowing that the murderer is still living while the victim is not definetley doesn't make it any better. He took away something that cannot be replaced, a human life, which is precious in gods eyes and should also be precious in ours. When Cain killed Abel, god said "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand" (Genesis 4:10, 11) With something so severe as murder, how can that person be forgiven for something that he cannot repay until death comes to them? Perhaps after that price is paid (death) maybe god can offer his forgiveness or the murderer can be given a chance to repent in the afterlife, but in this lifetime, I don't see it.

Wow thats completely false. As long as you believe in jesus christ and God you are accepted into heaven regardless..

i'm quite sure that's just the nature of a religious leader. they tend to do their best in perfecting themselves religiously (even when you know that's impossible as a human), and want other to do that as well. sometimes they just push it a bit too far that it turns off people.

[QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]

You can't seriously say that cussing or looking at porn is equivalent to killing or abusing someone.

mindstorm

And there is one of the biggest faults in Christian morality. The misdeeds of one cannot be absolved by the actions of another. If I bulldozed a house on a whim and my friend built it back up from the ground out of the goodness of his heart, it would not change the fact that I have done a wrong thing. His actions, no matter how benevolent, cannot exonerate me of my crime; he can undo the effects of it but he cannot undo the misdeed itself.

The idea that Christ (or anyone else for that matter,) could "die for my sins" and thus absolve me without my having made amends to those who I have wronged, is very weak.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="DragonRebel0908"]

You can't seriously say that cussing or looking at porn is equivalent to killing or abusing someone.

D_Battery

And there is one of the biggest faults in Christian morality. The misdeeds of one cannot be absolved by the actions of another. If I bulldozed a house on a whim and my friend built it back up from the ground out of the goodness of his heart, it would not change the fact that I have done a wrong thing. His actions, no matter how benevolent, cannot exonerate me of my crime; he can undo the effects of it but he cannot undo the misdeed itself.

The idea that Christ (or anyone else for that matter,) could "die for my sins" and thus absolve me without my having made amends to those who I have wronged, is very weak.

I believe that one step in the path to repentance is to make amends to whom the person has wronged.

Wow... talk about off-base. That pastor had no idea what he was talking about. That's not Christianity he's preaching; that's just twisted.

MAILER_DAEMON

[QUOTE="D_Battery"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] Keep in mind that one sin is as much an offense against God as another sin. As James 2:10 states, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." However, in some respects this concept can be taken too far if we put it into practice in our lives. The point is that all of us are sinners in the sight of God and all need Christ.stepnkev

And there is one of the biggest faults in Christian morality. The misdeeds of one cannot be absolved by the actions of another. If I bulldozed a house on a whim and my friend built it back up from the ground out of the goodness of his heart, it would not change the fact that I have done a wrong thing. His actions, no matter how benevolent, cannot exonerate me of my crime; he can undo the effects of it but he cannot undo the misdeed itself.

The idea that Christ (or anyone else for that matter,) could "die for my sins" and thus absolve me without my having made amends to those who I have wronged, is very weak.

I believe that one step in the path to repentance is to make amends to whom the person has wronged.

TC, the pastor is WRONG.Tjeremiah1988

So if a killer kills someone just how is he supposed to make amends to the personwho was wronged. Dead is still dead.

[QUOTE="stepnkev"]

[QUOTE="D_Battery"]

And there is one of the biggest faults in Christian morality. The misdeeds of one cannot be absolved by the actions of another. If I bulldozed a house on a whim and my friend built it back up from the ground out of the goodness of his heart, it would not change the fact that I have done a wrong thing. His actions, no matter how benevolent, cannot exonerate me of my crime; he can undo the effects of it but he cannot undo the misdeed itself.

The idea that Christ (or anyone else for that matter,) could "die for my sins" and thus absolve me without my having made amends to those who I have wronged, is very weak.

mindstorm

I believe that one step in the path to repentance is to make amends to whom the person has wronged.

Why should a person who does not deserve mercy be granted it? Similarly, why should one who has done no wrong need to still seek mercy?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"] Indeed. The beautiful thing about Christianity is that all of us deserve the wrath of God but for those of us who seek after Christ, though still deserving of God's wrath, obtain his loving mercy instead.D_Battery

Why should a person who does not deserve mercy be granted it? Similarly, why should one who has done no wrong need to still seek mercy?

My problem with religion in general is that it says if somebody does not believe in God but lives a holy life, that person will go to hell. If God is like that, then God does not deserve to be worshiped.Twilight_King

[QUOTE="Tjeremiah1988"]TC, the pastor is WRONG.mindstorm

I suppose so. I do believe that there are evil people in the world. There are some that just don't seem capable of doing good, although I do believe that good exists in all of us as well. So while nobody may be 100% pure evil, evil does win over some people. To sum it up, I use the term evil in a general term. If a person mostly does evil, then he is therefore an evil person imo.

I also believe that a person has a choice in the desires that he chooses to fulfill. I believe we all have evil desires, but that doesn't mean that we will all succumb to the desires and eventually act on them.

dog64

But here's the thing: where does that choice come from? To claim that the person had a choice in the matter implies that that person could have just as easily picked the other option, but did not do so arbitrarily. And this is to fundamentally deny the very principle of cause and effect that allows existence at all. The moment one grants that a person does things for a reason, one quickly realizes how much everything is ultimately out of our hands. And the moment one realizes that, as I said, forgiveness becomes not only easy but imperative.

I always though god's penalty is death, from the scripture at Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death". Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I get from this scripture is that anyone who sins deserves death. And in Numbers, it states "....he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death". Take Adam and Eve for example. If you take it literally, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge which was a sin against god. Their penalty? Eventual death, when otherwise their lives would of been infinite.

dog64

Yes, the wages of sin is death. However, it is equally true that "the last enemy to be destroyed (Gk: abolished) is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26) Therefore, we can conclude that what one receives as penalty for sin will one day be abolished. The punishment of God on those who die in sin is not eternal; it is divine purification whose ultimate purpose is the reconciliation of all creation with God, "so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28 ) Jesus rejected the principle of "eye for an eye":

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42)

If there is nothing after death, then your murderer took away your only chance at life, a chance you will never receive again. Your life was cut short for no good reason and the murderer has left your family with severe grief and pain, something that will never go away regardless of what is done afterwards. Nothing done on this earth can heal the pain or bring back the victim, but knowing that the murderer is still living while the victim is not definetley doesn't make it any better. He took away something that cannot be replaced, a human life, which is precious in gods eyes and should also be precious in ours. When Cain killed Abel, god said "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand" (Genesis 4:10, 11) With something so severe as murder, how can that person be forgiven for something that he cannot repay until death comes to them? Perhaps after that price is paid (death) maybe god can offer his forgiveness or the murderer can be given a chance to repent in the afterlife, but in this lifetime, I don't see it.

dog64

Again, I ask: what is gained through the refusal to forgive? Does it bring the person back? Does it tip back the scales of justice and make things right again? Does it make the universe satisfied?

Of course not. All it does is to bring the refuser closer to the one whom he or she will not forgive and to ensure that hatred will never leave the heart and that peace will never be found.

Don't take anything this poster says seriously.

He is just trying to get you riled up.

This is the same guy that likes to "date" 14 year old girls...he is 20

Why should a person who does not deserve mercy be granted it?D_Battery

That is the entire definition of mercy. If someone deserves something, then granting it to him is not mercy; it is simply fulfilling one's debts. Mercy by its very definition is the lack of desire to pursue debts that others bear towards you, and is instead the desire to tell them to go in peace and not to worry.

LOL it's not possible to achieve but go ahead and try for it anyways.. I bet that makes people just want to jump at the chance..import_fighter1

That's the same as anything else in life. Can world peace be achieved? No - but the world will nonetheless be better off if one tries. Can perfection be achieved? No - but whatever one does will nonetheless be better off if one tries. If you refuse to do something simply because you cannot do it perfectly, then there is nothing in life that you could ever do.

My problem with religion in general is that it says if somebody does not believe in God but lives a holy life, that person will go to hell.Twilight_King

As mindstorm said, no ordinary human has lived, is living, or will live a holy life. Everyone has done at least something that hurt another that has made them in need of forgiveness.

That said, however, I do not believe that what God desires is simply factual belief - what he desires is for humans to recognize their imperfect nature and to pledge that they will do what they can to turn from their fleeting, carnal desires and instead pursue a life of love for their fellow man.

[QUOTE="D_Battery"]Why should a person who does not deserve mercy be granted it?GabuEx

That is the entire definition of mercy. If someone deserves something, then granting it to him is not mercy; it is simply fulfilling one's debts. Mercy by its very definition is the lack of desire to pursue debts that others bear towards you, and is instead the desire to tell them to go in peace and not to worry.

Wow, this is just like my old school....jesus this jeus that. GOT DAMN!

just live ur life being a good person..... worry about details when u die

Chris_Williams

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

I realize that the belief that belief is unhealthy is still belief, so I just settle for being as open-minded as I possibly can.

Well, fair enough, but I kinda doubt that one could properly function in life without ever coming to conclusions based on evidence that is not completely rock-solid proof - which is really all that belief is.

But here's the thing: where does that choice come from? To claim that the person had a choice in the matter implies that that person could have just as easily picked the other option, but did not do so arbitrarily. And this is to fundamentally deny the very principle of cause and effect that allows existence at all. The moment one grants that a person does things for a reason, one quickly realizes how much everything is ultimately out of our hands. And the moment one realizes that, as I said, forgiveness becomes not only easy but imperative.

GabuEx

I'm sure that most criminals do things for a reason, and if they didn't then they'd just make up one. But that doesn't excuse the crime or make it any less serious (with the exception of self defense, in which case it actually isn't a crime). The point being, most (or all) murders kill for wrong reasons. Most serial killers usually kill people at random, they actually have no reason at all to kill anyone, except for their own pleasure. The idea that people like serial killers should be forgiven for all of the people they have killed is something that I will never agree with. Such talk can actually encourage killers or "future" killers to carry out their desires, as they can just ask for forgiveness later, and it very well could be or seem genuine. Of course this is not the right attitude. What do you think should be done with such people?

Yes, the wages of sin is death. However, it is equally true that "the last enemy to be destroyed (Gk: abolished) is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26) Therefore, we can conclude that what one receives as penalty for sin will one day be abolished. The punishment of God on those who die in sin is not eternal; it is divine purification whose ultimate purpose is the reconciliation of all creation with God, "so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28 ) Jesus rejected the principle of "eye for an eye":

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42)

GabuEx

I take it then that you don't believe in eternal death, or any kind of eternal punishment. But not everyone can get into heaven, right? There will be some who will not repent and who lived bad lives. What will happen to them, if death is going to be destroyed?

Again, I ask: what is gained through the refusal to forgive? Does it bring the person back? Does it tip back the scales of justice and make things right again? Does it make the universe satisfied?

Of course not. All it does is to bring the refuser closer to the one whom he or she will not forgive and to ensure that hatred will never leave the heart and that peace will never be found.

GabuEx

Nothing is gained in either option. Forgiving the murderer will not take back his crime, it will not bring back the victim, and odds are it won't comfort the family, as a result. The person it might benefit is the murderer, as he has committed a serious crime by taking someones life but yet all is forgiven.

Not forgiving the criminal may also not bring much comfort or benefit to anyone, but do you honestly think that is something that the criminal deserves? Do you believe that the criminals feelings should be considered, when the criminal obviously never considered any of the feelings of his victim(s)?

A criminal may regret what he has done, and could also feel sorry, but by then it's too late. The crime has been done, and if it's murder than a life has been lost at the hand of the criminal. God is a god of justice, so it will be served.

And finally, the only way true peace will be brought to our world is if we all respect one another and learn that we can all have different opinions, religious beliefs, and ways of living without pointing guns. We also need to stop people from killing in the first place. These things have no sign of happening however, so I'm afraid we just have to live with it.

Well I'm Christian, and my pastor has said that God does not accept perfect people. If you're perfect, or near perfect, why would you need God?AndYOU

That sounds very much like the No Perfect People Allowed series put on my NewSpring Church as well as several other churches.